I have been advised that this affidavit will be submitted to the Military Tribunal I in Nurnberg and that I will be subject to severe penalties if I make false statements.
"The Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Cell Physiology, the director of which I have been since its foundation, was established and partly supported with funds from the Rockefeller Foundation. Because of this fact, I retained my position until 1941, although I am a half-Jew.
" In 1941 I was dismissed by the Kaiser Wilhelm Association. The then Chief of the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, Philipp Bouhler, learned about my dismissal and ordered his staff leader Viktor Brack to review my case.
"In a few weeks Viktor Brack succeeded in having my dismissal cancelled; in this way he most probably saved my life and for science a medical research institute of world renown working exclusively for peaceful purposes.
"'I did this', Brack told me on 21 June 1941, 'not for you or for Germany, but for the world.'
"Considering that Brack did this at a time when racial hatred and war psychosis had reached their climax in Germany, one has to admire the courage with which Brack advanced the cause of tolerance and the peaceful work of science against the basic principles of National Socialism.
"I have read the above affidavit and I have found it to be in all parts correct.
Signed: Professor Otto Warburg."
The authenticity of the certificate is certified by the notary von Lewinski on the 3rd of February 1947.
In addition to that document I also ....
THE PRESIDENT (Interrupting): Counsel, will you give us an exhibit number for this document?
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Mr. President, I beg your pardon, this will become Exhibit 32.
In addition to that document I submit Document #13 in my document volume which is the affidavit of Professor Dr. Walter Schoeller residing at Allensbach on the Lake of Constance. This will be Exhibit 33. I quote:
"For many years I was a member of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society and curator of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Cell Physiology which was headed by my friend Professor Warburg. In that capacity I heard from Dr. Telschow, the Director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society, that the Ministry of Culture has asked the Kaiser Welhelm Society to dismiss Warburg, as he was 'racially tainted', from his father's side. To prevent this I got into touch with Reichsleiter Bouhler who appeared open to my representations and entrusted his assistant in the Chancellery, Viktor Brack, with the handling of this case. Mr. Brack's efforts were completely successful. The pertinent depositions of Professor Warburg as made in his statement of 5 September 1946 are in every respect in accordance with my recollections."
This statement of 5 September 1946 is the one I mentioned earlier; namely the one Mr. Warburg made available to the Family Brack for the purposes of submission before the de-Nazification board. I sent copies of this affidavit to Professor Schoeller. He goes on:
"I have carefully read the above statement and found it correct in every respect."
Signed and certified by Dr. Carl Haensel under the date of 7th of February, 1947.
Mr. Brack, you have stated on the 28th of March, 1941 that you sent this letter to Himmler.
You further stated that if there was no other evidence for the correctness of your statement you would point to the affidavit of Professor Warburg. That is tho sense of what you said?
A. Yes.
Q In order to bring this matter to a conclusion, did you experience any resistance to your efforts inconnection with Warburg?
A Yes, I had considerable difficulties. The Gestapo and Bormann learned about my endeavors on behalf of Warburg. My own collaborators warned me a few times not to bring these matters to an explosion but I did that in spite of all these difficulties and helped Professor Warburg. I was then asked to call on the Gestapo and I was given a warning by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller.
Q Witness, I must again revert to your affidavit. In this affidavit you make some mention of having made a sterilization suggestion to Hitler. Rather, that you did not send him that suggestion directly, but you discussed that question with your chief, Reichsleiter Bouhler.
A It may well be that I discussed that matter with Bouhler. In view of the rejection of the Madagascar Plan I am sure that Bouhler would have rejected any such proposal, but I mixed these two things up and I am afraid that my memory wasn't quite clear at that time.
Q But, Mr. Brack, a document was submitted here, the Document No. 216, Exhibit 170, which is to be found in the German document book 6, page 54, and in the English document volume 6, page 56. This is a file notice of July, 1942. This file notice originates from the defendant Rudolf Brandt and refers to a conference which took place on tho 7th of July, 1942, between the Reichsfuehrer SS, SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt, Bluecks and Klauberg.
You have the document book before you?
A Yes.
Q. In Paragraph two the name of Professor Dr. Hohlfelder is mentioned who is an X-ray specialist in Germany. He says "It should also be examined, preferably in cooperation with Professor Dr. Hohlfelder, an X-ray specialist in Germany, in what way sterilization of men could be achieved by X-ray treatment." Tell us who was Dr. Hohlfelder?
A. Hohlfelder was the head of the SS X-ray Unit.
Q. What do you mean by SS X-ray Unit?
A. The X-ray Unit was an institution of the SS and of Himmler. It had existed long before the War. It was committed to carry out investigations in areas which were subject to tuberculosis. A method had been found partly through Hohlfelder which made it possible for X-ray investigation to be carried out with a normal film. Such units were then established and were going through the country.
Q. But you know that from before 1941?
A. Yes, I think that took place in 1937 or 1938.
Q. Did you ever speak to Hohlfelder?
A. No, I didn't know Hohlfelder and I never talked to him.
Q. Witness, reading that document one would arrive at the thought that Himmler was consulting those X-ray specialists because he didn't quite consider your suggestion feasible which had preceded that letter; can that be possible?
A. Yes, that is possible, but in no way can be contest with that my good intention which I had when making that proposal. That of course you cannot remove. At first I received no report from Himmler's staff at all which let me conclude that he was continuing with his sterilization intentions. I was completely calm thinking that I had achieved my purpose and had deviated Himmler's mind from this sterilization idea. The Document NO 204, the reply letter from Himmler to me came to me only after a period of more than two months.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, the Document NO 204 can be found in the English Document Book Volume 6, page 38, and in the German Document Book Volume 6, page 37.
I may quote this short document in order to clarify matters:
"Top Secret" addressed to "Oberstdienstleiter Viktor Brack, Berlin W8 Voss Strasse 4, "A little while before his departure to Greece by plane the Reichsfuehrer-SS gave me the order to thank you very much for your report about the X-ray castration experiments forwarded to us with your letter of 28 March 1941.
He has read the report with interest and will discuss this question with you at the first opportunity."
What did you concluded from this letter?
A. This letter proves to me Himmler's interest. It contains no rejection, but made the pursuance of the entire matter dependent upon another discussion. This discussion, however, did not come about, and therewith I thought I had won a considerable period of time, and that Himmler would not continue with this idea.
Q. Did you speak to Himmler some other time in the year 1941?
A. Yes, I once more dealt with Himmler in 1941 in connection with the case of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt, whose affidavit was submitted this morning.
Q. I merely wanted to ascertain whether you had anymore dealings with Himmler in the year 1941. What kind of reaction did you feel in the case of Schmitt about whom you were speaking? One moment--
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, may I remind the Tribunal of the exhibit 25, which I have submitted this morning, which is the affidavit of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt, the most part of which I have already read. From this affidavit I shall only quote another two short paragraphs. This is in the German Document Book 2, page 59. I am sorry Document Book 1, page 59, to Schmitt. It says here:
"I was first arrested for a short period in November 1933 and again on 21 April 1934 when I was detained for 1-1/2 years. I was arrested for political reasons at the personal instigation of Heydrich.
I had helped about 18 persecuted anti-fascists over the border. Among these were: The well known socialist Sternberg from Berlin, Bert Brecht's female assistant and Brecht's child, Otto Strasser and his friends.
"It was Brack's opinion -- as he later frankly admitted that, though he was a national socialist himself, he did not expect every German to have the same political views. It should be the right of every German to leave Germany and to adopt another country, if he disapproved the national socialistical regime. If I helped those Germans to escape, my action was prompted by idealistic motives and should not be punished by the Nazi state. That is why he fully understood my action and did not hesitate to intervene on my behalf."
And then, Witness, it continues:
"In 1941 I was arrested for the third time, again for political reasons. Brack again then personally drafted together with Bouhler a petition to Himmler and kept my relatives informed about the position. He accompanied Bouhler to Himmler, and another time he called on Himmler alone in order to obtain my release. However, Himmler refused my release and declared that I would have to remain in the concentration camp for the rest of my life. Himmler also prevented all further efforts concerning myself with Hitler and warned both Bouhler and Brack not to undertake any further action on my behalf."
This is the matter of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt.
A. Yes.
Q. What reaction did you feel because of this fact?
A. This brought about an even stronger rejection of Himmler's attitude. I couldn't understand it. For many years I considered him to have a decent character and now suddenly I found that I had been wrong. All the human trends which he had demonstrated up to that point were suddenly lost. I assume that Heydrich's hand was apparent behind these matters, but of course I also erred in my opinion about Himmler.
Simultaneously I think also in tho summer of 1942 some other case arose in connection with some release from the concentration camp. Bouhler had endeavored that a former officer of the Werhrmacht be released from the concentration camp and shortly before this granted release he died under suspicious circumstances in the concentration camp. There were good reasons for suspicion. He had been visited and seen by some members of his family in a completely, healthy state, and I think that ho had died within two days. Bouhler discussed that matter with Himmler, all of which brought me to dispair of Himmler's attitude.
Q. Then you did have doubts about Himmler's mentality, but you didn't quite see through it yet, did you?
A. Well, I had believed in that man for too long a period of time. I thought that everything originated from Heydrich, and I thought that Heydrich was deceiving Himmler, but then for the first; time I became doubtful about Himmler himself.
Q. Did you ever hear that Himmler was pursued for sterilization intentions and in particular did you hear anything to the effect that your letter which we had mentioned in detail before, had been submitted to Pohl, the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A. I neither received knowledge of the fact that Himmler was pursuing the sterilization intentions, nor did I know that this letter had been submitted to Heydrich, not Pohl. I only reconstructed that from the documents which I have seen here.
Q. Now, Mr. Brack, you know that it is the Prosecution's position that you didn't only participate in the extermination of Jewry by writing this letter alone, but that you sent a further letter to Himmler in 1942; in this connection in particular you are brought in connection with a very infamous name, Globochik; would you please inform the Tribunal when and under what circumstances you made Globochik's acquaintance?
Beginning with September I accompanied Bouhler on a ride to the former Governor-General Frank. We then met Globocnik and I made his acquaintance at that time.
Q What was the subject of your conversation with Globocnik?
A I did not have any conversation with him at all. I just listened to what he said to Bouhler. Globocnik told Bouhler about his entire work in Poland; about his special assignment according to which the people who had been removed from Germany were committed for work in Poland. Furthermore, he said that factories were to be instituted in the Ukraine with similar installations as in the concentration camp of Dachau, which were to be instituted by the governor-general.
Q Did Globocnik give you an opportunity to view and inspect this work which was being created?
A I went to one of these works accompanied by the Reichsleiter, where a number of things were produced. Part of the workers were housed in barracks, and part of them in town, some had been residing there, and some had been re-settled. So far as I can remember, they were producing shoes, motor cars, small furniture, and there were some tailor shops. These other things I still remember. I am sure that there were a few thousand Jews there who were working there. In this rather great factory I saw nothing about any torture, or anything like that. The physical condition was good, and they seemed to be nourished properly.
Q Now, Mr. Brack, did Globocnik at that time tell you about the exploitation of labor - of the Jewish labor, which was intended by Pohl?
A No. There was no mention made of any exploitation. There was only mention made of proper commitment of that labor.
Q In that case you saw -
A What I saw was absolutely positive creative work.
Q It was no concentration camp, was it?
A No. It was a big work compound. There were no barbed wires, or anything like that.
It looked just like any other large factory.
Q Did you on this opportunity notice anything of any installations which could serve as any extermination of Jews? Did you see any gas chambers, or anything like that. Did you possibly hear something of such chambers from Globocnik, or somebody else?
A No, neither did I hear of anything like that, nor did I see anything which attracted my particular attention. It was my impression that this was an absolutely normal factory compound.
Q When was that again?
A It was in the Fall of 1941. I think the beginning of September 1941.
Q Now in the late Fall of 1941 you left for a considerable period of time, and that at the end of October 1941 you came back from your leave, is that true?
A Yes.
Q During that time a certain decision arose within you, as you have told me, which matured, may I put it that way?
A I wanted to volunteer for the front. I wanted to join the Army, because I did not like the entire political development. So far as I could judge, Hitler's aims became more and more radical. I personally was watched by the chief of the Gestapo. I was warned by him and Himmler warned me because of my interference in the case of Schmitt, and there were many similar measures so that I saw no longer any possibility for positive work to be done on by me. When voicing this intention I found intensive resistance on the part of many of my friends. They said if I loft my post, there would be nobody left to whom one could turn in case of political difficulties, and who, disregarding any personal agency, was always ready and willing to help, even political opponents.
Q Mr. Brack, may I catch up with something I forgot a little while ago. You were saying that Globocnik had been talking about a special assignment?
A Yes, a few special assignments.
Q You know that the expression "special assignment" has gained a very unpleasant meaning during the trial here in Nurnberg, because one even likes to understand by "special assignment" special treatment, and special treatment in that regard seems today to have purely a meaning of liquidation. Now when Globocnik was discussing his special assignment in connection with the commitment of labor consisting of Jews, did you have the idea that it meant extermination?
A No, no idea at all. I heard the expression "special treatment" of this meaning here for the first time.
Q Had you known about this expression "special treatment" from your physical activity?
A No, of course not.
Q Now may I continue where I interrupted before. We now return to the tine of the end of October, or the beginning of November, which brings us before Christmas of 1%1. What happened Christmast of 1941?
A My intentions of becoming a soldier, and going to the front were assisted by a special assignment from Hitler. The Armament Ministry Todt previously reported to Hitler that the Army alone could not deal with the problem of housing, and winter aid to the troops in Russia during that catastrophy in the winter of 1941, which has been discussed here in detail, and I shall dispense with repeating it in detail. The Fuehrer ordered at that time that my medical institution, that all sanitary institutions would have to help in that matter, and among them was Bouhler's Institution which dealt with euthanasia. I asked Bouhler for permission to take a few buses and some of his personnel, and to participate in this aid action within the framework of the Todt organization. I must state here that in August 1741 euthanasia had been interrupted by order of Hitler, and a large part of the personnel for that reason was released. Inspite of that, the personnel was not used, and many of them were in a position to participate in this aid action.
In the Winter of 1941 I went to the East, and in January 1942 a larger group also went to the East for that purpose. That can be seen from a letter written by the witness Menneke to his wife.
Q When did you return from the East, in order to bring this chapter to a conclusion?
A I returned at the beginning of March. The details about my activity there ought to be listed here.
Q Well, then, you returned to Berlin?
A Yes, when I returned to Berlin, my mother died within a few days. Up to that time I had been obliged to look after her, and now that was no longer necessary. I had no personal concerns at home any longer, and, I, therefore, volunteered for the front. Of course, with the approval of Reichsleiter Bouhler. But something happened in the meantime, there was a conversation with Himmler.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I am now coming to the second conversation between Brack and Himmler, which will take up some time, in which Himmler told Brack about his far reaching plan, and perhaps it would be advisable to take a recess now.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrowr morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 May 1947 at 0930 hours).
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United. States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 14 May 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court with the exception of the defendant Becker-Freyseng, who is absent, having been excused yesterday.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the defendant BeckerFreyseng who is excused upon request of his counsel in order to consult with his counsel.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the defendant Brack): Mr. President, I have a request to make at the beginning of this morning's session. In the case Brack, which I initially imagined to be only small, it has become extended in the last six months, owing to the enormous amount of material, to one of the biggest cases of this proceeding. Altogether I had received over 750 applications, offers, and representations from people who declared themselves ready to come here as witnesses or write affidavits on his behalf. Of this large number I only submitted 36 affidavits to this Tribunal. Three of these affidavits are contained in a supplemental volume which I submitted to the Secretary General only a few days ago because they had come in too late. I should be very grateful to the Tribunal if they would ask the Secretary General to have this supplemental volume translated by tomorrow morning because at that time I hope to be finished with the direct examination of my client.
THE PRESIDENT: The clerk of the Tribunal will convey to the Secre tany General the request to expedite, as much as possible, the documents referred to by counsel for the defendant Brack, and place before the Tribunal at the earliest possible time the supplemental document book to which counsel has referred.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I didn't quite get the German translation; I didn't have my switch on correctly. I was concerned with supplemental volume number 3. Thank you very much, Your Honor.
VIKTOR BRACK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the defendant Brack):
Q. Witness, I at first remind you that you are still under oath today.
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday we concluded the session while you were talking about the time you volunteered for the Army. What happened before you joined the SS?
A. On the occasion of my mother's death I met my brother - he was a mechanical engineer and a motor transport officer in an SS division. He complained to me that he was continually receiving wrong technical orders, which in part had a result in the catastrophe resulting from the lack of motor vehicles. I, myself, while in Russia aiding the wounded people, had an opportunity to observe our motor transport problem. For that reason I decided to visit Himmler and report these matters to him in order to improve that situation, if possible.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, in that connection I should like to revert to Exhibit No. 5, which is the affidavit already submitted by the brother of the defendant Brack, Document 41, paragraph 3. This is to be found on page 1 of supplemental volume number 1.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Would you continue please.
A. I reported these matters to Himmler but subsequently, I don't know why, voiced my criticism about other matters within the SS.
Himmler quietly listened to me but then tried to convince me in his way about the correctness of what he was doing. He admitted that some things in the SS weren't as he would like them to be, and that some of the men in the SS did not quite fit into the organization. But, he said, at this critical point he needed every single one of the old SS members. He said, approximately, only if the old comrades would stand by him faithfully could the SS cleanse itself of these people who did not fit into it. He could only expect the most heavy tasks to be carried out by the old SS members. Then he suddenly stopped and told me that Hitler had some time ago given him the order for the extermination of the Jews. He said that the preparations had already been made, and I think that he used the expression that for reasons of camouflage one would have to work as quickly as possible.
He seemed to say these things devoid of any inner approval of them, but he also said them as if they were a matter of course. I had the feeling that he didn't innerly approve of these orders but he showed no sign of any mental shock. I, however, was deeply shocked to hear of these developments because now for the first time I had heard concretely, by somebody who was in a position to know, that all of these rumors were actually true; that there was in effect the intention to exterminate the Jews.
I don't know whether Himmler expected to make this impression on me. I thought that Himmler expected that I would offer my assistance in this matter. I couldn't say anything but that this seemed to me to be an enormous task and that I could not understand how Himmler could bear the responsibility before humanity for these acts. I then tried to conclude this conversation as quickly as possible, and on this occasion told Himmler that Bouhler had permitted me to volunteer for the Army and that for that purpose I had already gone to the Fuehrungshauotamt. After that I departed.
Q. What was the result of that conversation?
A. I redoubled my efforts to get to the front and I tried to conclude the formalities as quickly as possible. Now a fate was taking its course, which I did not think I could successfully oppose. I saw before mo a possibility to do something for my nation in a decent way. However, I wanted to get away from an office and a Fuehrer whose radicalism I had begun to realize more and more and where my reason would not allow me to cooperate any longer. I thought that only as a soldier could I put distance between these things and myself. I did only what many of other comrades had already done before, comrades who no longer wanted anything to do with the high leadership and who went to the front.
Q. Now Mr. Brack then I think at the end of April or the beginning of May you went to the front, but wasn't there another event in April which may be of some importance for the Tribunal?
A. Yes. Before I loft I mot - and by accident, we could ascertain the date, the 19th of April - I met Globocnik at a concert on the 19th of April in Berlin. Globocnik asked me whether Reichleiter Bouhler was in Berlin and whether he could speak to him. I said, yes, Bouhler was there and he could visit him. Globocnik did that and Bouhler told me after this conversation that Globocnik had asked him to furnish him supervisory personnel fur his working shops in Berlin, which was to be taken from the T-4 euthanasia program. Reichsleiter Bouhler said he complied with this request of Globocnik, but he reserved the right that these people should return to him as soon as the execution of the euthanasia was once more started. I approximately remember the words of Bouhler who said:
"Here these people will be used in a productive capacity, because they would be working in the camps, and as soon as I need them I shall get them once more." Bouhler told me I was to issue a directive to T-4 that these peoples were to be furnished. These people were then separated from the organization and were detailed to him.
Q. Witness, there is a document available here, NOa05, Exhibit 163, English Document Book, volume 6, page 39. This is the well known second letter in which you concerned yourself with euthanasia proposals. You write on the 23 June 1942, and the letter is addressed to Himmler:
"On the instructions of Reichleiter Bouhler I placed some of my men - already some time ago - at the disposal of Brigade-fuehrer Globocnik to execute his special mission."
Have you the document before you?
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. As far as I road this introduction in this letter, is it a reference to the conversation you had with Globocnik, f r is it in reference to the directive which Bouhler gave you as a result 'f that conversation which you had with Globocnik?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, I once more revert to your affidavit NO426. There is a paragraph in that affidavit entitled: "Connection between the "E" program, the euthanasia program, and SS Brigadefuehrer Globocnik." Would you please define your attitude toward this rather strange title in your affidavit?
A. The formulation of that title does not originate from me. It was chosen by the author of that affidavit.
When I was interrogated I did not know anything about any connection between Globocnik and the euthanasia program. The interrogator perhaps thought it expedient to formulate that title in such a manner. As a matter of fact there was no connection between the execution of euthanasia and whatever Globocnik was doing. The one was euthanasia, mercy death for sick people whose existence could really not be called living any longer, and the other meant the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews. At that time I didn't really pay any attention to the title but limited myself to the text, as far as I could understand it.
Q. Witness, in other words you want to say that when submitting this affidavit, as far as you were in a position to follow it, you attached more importance to the text contained in your statement than you did to the titles given to the various chapters within your affidavit? For that reason you did not attach the importance to this heading, which seems to establish a connection between euthanasia and Globocnik, that an outside observer might?
A. I didn't really understand it in its significance.
Q. Now in this statement you were referring to this personnel which was to be furnished for Lublin. With reference to paragraph 14 within your affidavit, is there anything you would like to add? Did you at that time perhaps remember the matter somewhat differently? It says here: "The Fuehrer asked me to send this personnel to Lublin, after a conference with Himmler, at the disposal of the Brigadefuehrer Globocnik."
A. At that time I really didn't know it exactly. I really didn't know what the connections were at that time. As a matter of fact it was Globocnik who discussed that matter with Bouhler and not Himmler. My limitation in that sentence, as I believe, is really justified.
Q. Then you go on to say: "Bouhler asked me to furnish those personnel which could be released because of the stoppage of the action." This does not quite correspond with your statement now, because now you only say you were going to furnish a part of these people.
A. I already stated that at the time that we were only concerned with a small part of the people, about twenty to thirty, only a small part of them were released. Even after the euthanasia as such was stopped, the scientific and prepatory work, however, was still going on.
Q. You stated during your interrogation what you have said to the Tribunal today, that Bouhler told you at that time that he wanted to reserve the right to use that personnel later for euthanasia?
A. Yes, I stated that at the time. I said that Bouhler was worried, that Bormann would carry on with the euthanasia program if he didn't control it any longer, and that then a misuse was to be expected, and I further stated it was my opinion that this personnel would be used in the work camps. Perhaps I didn't emphasize that sufficiently when I was interrogated at that time, because my memory at that time wasn't clear enough. It was quite clear that Bouhler only furnished personnel for that purpose, and under the condition that they would only be used in the work camps.
Q. Witness, the Prosecution asserts that Bouhler, in full knowledge of the purposes for which they were to be used, had furnished T-4 personnel to Globocnik in order to exterminate the Jews. You were previously speaking of a conversation with Himmler which took place in the beginning of April 1942. According to your further statement Globocnik, on the 19th or 20th April 1942, had spoken to Bouhler.
I can then understand the point of view of the Prosecution when they say that on the occasion of this visit of 20 April 1942, Bouhler, by request of Globocnik, furnished that personnel to him for the purpose of the extermination of the Jews. You know what the witness Hederich had testified here about Bouhler.
We need not repeat it. I am asking you, however, knowing the mentality and the personality of the Reichleiter Bouhler, do you consider it possible, or would you say that it was out of the question, that Bouhler in that conversation of the 20 April 1942, furnished the personnel of T-4 to Globocnik for the purpose of the extermination of the Jews? Have you anything that could make you believe that, yes or no?