AAccording to this affidavit Himmler was interested in eliminating the Jews but still keeping their man power. Perhaps at that time he already know of Bromann's plans and did not wish to affiliate himself with these plans.
Q What plans are you talking about?
A The plans to exterminate the Jews which I told you about before and having known them and having been in the Party Chancellory in the course of this conversation when I told Himmler Grafeneck was to be abandoned, Himmler also told me of communications he had received from Poland, according to which the Jews there were using the temporary impotence of the Polish government to strengthen their own position and Himmler said something had to be done about this. He said something had to be undertaken to stop this because through the mixing of blood in the Polish Jews with that of the Jews from Western Europe a much greater danger for Germany was arising than even before the war, and he said it was his intention to sterilize the Jews according to reliable methods, according to a procedure which would permit mass sterilization. Operative sterilization was out of the question for one thing because you couldn't do that without leaving some scar. Then he brought up the question, could not this be done with x-ray treatment? However, I didn't know about this for sure, and in fact nobody knew about it, and especially didn't know whether the person in question could be treated without noticing something. Himmler then said that Bouhler had gathered together so many scientists and doctors in the euthanasia program, consequently I should try to hear from him what he could tell me about sterilization, and tell him to report to me again.
Q Well, what was the effect of this communication from Himmler on you?
A This made a great impression on me. I believed that Heydrich could have really been the instigator of all of this. In my interrogation I told the Interrogator that I regarded such a plan of exterminating the Jews as unworthy of Germany and its leaders. From what I knew of Himmler it would never have occurred to me that such a destructive idea could have originated in his mind.
Be that, however, as it may, whether the idea originated with Heydrich or Bormann, my attitude was opposed to this; and I felt that I was under obligation to do anything I could to prevent this. If I had raised the least objection to it openly I would have aroused great suspicion of myself and would have aroused an all together and false reaction in Himmler. Therefore, I had to make the best of a bad matter and had to pretend that I agreed with Himmler. Therefore, I pretended to be willing to clarify the question of mass sterilization through x-ray methods, Many years ago I had been subjected to x-ray treatment for quite a period of time and had discussed with the doctor the effect of x-rays on the human body. Now I remembered from those discussions that the effect of x-ray on the sexual organsis only of slight importance and are not lasting. Moreover, I knew that one of my associates was personally acquainted with a x-ray specialist and he told me that this specialist was conducting experiments on the effects of x-rays on the fertility of animals. However, there seemed to be no result.
Q Mr. President I put in now Document No. 26, from my document book II, page 1, of 25 February 1947, an affidavit by Dr. Martin Zeller, a specialist, born 3 December 1880, living in Munich, signed by him on this same date and certified by myself. This affidavit contributes to the understanding of this matter now under discussion and I quotes:
"I remember distinctly that 10 to 15 years ago I spoke to Viktor Brack about x-ray injuries. Brack was worried that he might develop an x-ray injury, at that time his knee had been x-rayed. When some time afterwards he had rough hands he thought that might be an x-ray burn. I explained to him that no injuries could result from our x-ray examinations since the quantities of radiation used for diagnosis were small and besides, the more distant parts of the body (that is, in the case of a picture of the knee being taken, the hands and genitals) were not in the danger zone under modern technical conditions.
Q I also made the remark that even an intentional sterilization by x-ray treatment would, especially in the case of young persons, be difficult to achieve and even then only with a strong dosis of prolonged radiation."
And then in paragraph 2 the witness continues:
"It is quite possible that Brack in this way developed the views as brought forward, i.e., that the effect of x-rays upon the sexual organs is negligible, and that the danger of sterilization does not exist at all. The layman will not differentiate between x-ray diagnostics and x-ray therapy."
This will be Exhibit No. 31. Witness, please continue.
A I took this associate into my confidence and told him of my intention to deceive Himmler, if only to gain time. We agreed to deceive Himmler by giving him a certificate that seemed to say that sterilization by x-ray methods was possible and we would thus get him to pursue a false path. Just what was said in this certificate I do not know any longer. At any rate there were no positive results in it so that we couldn't put it to Himmler in this form.
Q Mr. President, let me remark in this connection, that after great efforts I have succeeded in finding the man who drew up this certificate of which the witness has just been speaking. I have found out his name and address. He lives in the Russian zone and for that reason it was not possible for me to get a copy of that certificate that he drew up at that time. However, I have made contact with this doctor and he has declared his readiness to come to Nurnberg and to give me an affidavit, because as he said it would be a matter of course that he should help an innocent man if his testimony could do so. He does remember having given this certificate to Brack or to his associates and I ask permission to reserve the right to put this affidavit in evidence as soon as I have it, and when perhaps the doctor has had a chance to speak to the witness -- to the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for defendant Brack may offer the affidavit as soon as it is received so long as it complies with the evidence in the case.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Your Honor. Witness, please continue.
A Naturally, this factor of uncertainty had to be taken into consideration.
Q What exactly are you speaking of?
A I am talking about the report we received.
Q You mean the man who drew up the certificate, the expert?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now counsel I don't want you to misunderstand me. I said Counsel may offer the affidavit, that means it is offered subject to any objection raised by the Prosecution as no the form of the affidavit or its relevancy. Yesterday the affidavits from Brazil were possibly offered by you because the Tribunal had said that they might be offered. The right to offer simply means offered subject to objection and that is not equivalent to saying that the affidavit will be received in evidence, but it may be offered. That is the sense in which I have used the word "offer" in this affidavit.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, Your Honor, I understood the President and I shall only submit an affidavit which is in compliance with the regulation of this Tribunal. Would you please continue, witness?
A My collaborator changed this certificate in its contents in such a manner that sterilization becomes apparent as something possible from a medical point of view. That is exactly what is contained in my affidavit. Thus this letter dated the 28 March 1941, originated with this document No. 203, Exhibit 161.
Q Mr. President, with reference to the Document No. 203, Exhibit 161, you can find it in the English Document Volume VI, page 35. Let us reconstruct this letter quite shortly. I shall quote. Volume VI, page 35, addressed by Brack to Himmler, marked top secret.
"Dear Reichsfuehrer:
"Enclosed I sent to you for your information the report of the examination regarding the possibility of an x-ray sterilization or castration. I ask you to tell me whether anything can be done in the matter either theoretically or practically."
That is the covering letter. This covering letter, Witness, in connection with the report which is attached was considered by the Prosecution as being a serious suggestion for sterilization and Prosecution in that connection has stated that this needed no comment. What is your attitude toward it?
A Neither the first nor the latter is correct. I admit that if one reads this letter or report without knowing the connections that impression can be created. I, therefore, have to attempt to analyze this report in order to explain to tho Tribunal what we tried to achieve with this letter. I have to emphasize once more that the entire thing was a maneuver of deceit.
Q With reference to the report which you attached to this letter NO-203 I should like to quote from it a very brief passage. It can be found in Document Volume VI, page 34 and reads:
"Report on Experiments concerning X-ray Castration.
"The experiments in this field are concluded. The following result can be considered as established and adequately based on scientific research.
"If any persons are to be sterilized permanently, this result can only be attained by applying Xrays in a dosage high enough to produce castration with all its consequences, since high X-ray dosages destroy the internal secretion of the ovary, or of the testicles respectively.
Lower dosages would only temporarily paralyze the procreative capacity. The consequences in question are for example the disappearance of menstruation, climacteric phenomona, changes in capillary growth, modification of metabolism, etc. In any case, attention must be drawn to these disadvantages.
"The actual dosage can be given in various ways, and the irradiation can take place quite imperceptibly. The necessary local dosage for men is 500-600 r, for women 300-350 r. In general an irradiation period of 2 minutes for men, 3 minutes for women, with the highest voltage, a thin filter and at a short distance, ought to be sufficient. There is, however a disadvantage that has to be put up with: as it is impossible to cover unnoticeably the rest of the body with lead, the other tissues of the body will be injured, and radiologic malaise, the so-called "Roentgenkator", will ensue."
Witness, would you define your attitude toward this letter which I partly read?
A I was speaking in connection with the talk I had with Himmler in the year of 1941. This becomes apparent from the paragraph "I herewith submit the result of an x-ray examination. It looks now as though in effect experiments had been carried out by scientists, which was not the case. Himmler had to be assured and that is why we had to emphasize that the experiments had been concluded and the result could be based on scientific work. Of course, we couldn't state the result as being absolutely positive. We had to leave it to Himmler himself to judge it. In the first instance it was our intention to remove Himmler's mind from that thought. That is why we chose the formulation which can be seen in that letter - "If any persons are to be sterilized permanently". It meant in effect that this was theoretically possible. At the same time however, we pointed out that this success cannot be concealed and that phenomena will arise. That obviously was done by the contents of the certificate itself and it is emphasized that permanent sterilization makes high dosage of x-ray necessary. These high dosages would then bring about the effects of castration with all of the accompanying symptoms which would be noticed immediately.
If, however, lower dosages were used you will have only stopped productive capacity for a short time. We actually said that at the end of the report, namely, that the result of sterilization could be ascertained after a comparatively short time but that it was impossible to achieve the results of bring about sterilization without being noticed, and in this way are thought are could got Himmler to give up that idea.
Q Now, this was the first part of the letter. Now let us discuss the second part. I am again referring to the method which you suggested to Himmler. You thought at that time "One practical way of proceeding would be, for instance, to let the persons to be treated approach a counter, where they could be asked to answer some questions or to fill in forms, which would take them 2 or 3 minutes. The official sitting behind the counter could operate the installation in such a way as to turn a switch which would activate the two valves simultaneously ( since the irradiation as to operate from both sides.) With a two-valve installation about 150-200 persons could then be sterilized per day, and therefore, with 20 such installations as many as 3000 - 4000 persons per day. In my estimation a larger daily number could not in any case be sent away for this purpose."
Mr. Brack, how could you arrive at this idea of turning switches. This is completely ununderstandable for a layman.
A Himmler wanted this procedure to be carried out as simply as possible. Therefore, we had to suggest as simple a method as are could think of. On the other hand this method increased the uncertainty of of directing the rays to the corresponding parts of the body. That is what was discussed by my collaborator with his acquaintance. We suggested this switch method to Himmler with the idea, of making this matter as simple as possible and at the same time to prevent any active x-ray reaching the body.
Furthermore, only 2-3 minutes were suggested, as the length of time for these people to be subjected to these x-rays. How we arrived at these 500-600 figures - or 350 r. - I don't know whether they were just invented or whether they were based upon something. I don't know. But looking at it as a whole it contained a number of points that were to demostrate to Himmler that the whole thing could not be carried out. There is scientific basis for these suggestions.
Q Mr. President, in connection with this point I have tried to get an unobjectionable irreproachable certificate for the correctness of what the defendant just stated. I shall get a certificate from a specialist. The man concerned says that this suggestion is absolutely senseless. I had, however, to wait for this certificate because I had to wait for an affidavit from another expert physician. With the permission of tho High Tribunal I shall obtain a corresponding certificate from a radiologist who can make it appear credible that this entire suggestion was really scientific nonsense.
A The possibility for Himmler to accept this proposal in spite of all these difficulties we had to take into account. We knew, however, that the preparation of any such installation would take up a long period of time, building, etc. We thought that the war would end very quickly and as I said before I didn't know there was any throat from the Wast. And, in case of peace the Plan of Madagaskar which had already been rejected could once more be placed in the foreground. If on the other hand this suggestion was to be accepted and if at that time the war had not yet ended, the carrying out of this experiment on the 100-200 Jews was much loss of an evil than Himmler taking the Jews and sterilizing them on masse or doing something worse to them.
Q Mr. Brack, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that, at that time, you had to make a decision between either killing millions of Jews or choosing the smaller evil by only suggesting this small number which you have mentioned upon whom experiments might be carried out. Is my opinion correct?
A During my interrogations I designated this dilemma in a way by saying that this was our last way out. But, naturally, when judging these two possibilities one must take into consideration that one decides upon one possibility and, at the same time, feels an inner justification for doing so. The same way as a troop commander sacrifices a few thousand people somewhere if he can save a hundred thousand somewhere else.
Q Now, Mr. Brack, in order to conclude this letter I want to say that you have stated the following at the end of that letter, and I quote?
"In summary it may be said that having regard to the present state of radiology technique and research, mass sterilization by means of X-rays can be carried cut without difficulty. However, it seems to be impossible to do this in such a way that the persons concerned do not, sooner or later, realize with certainty that they have been sterilized or castrated by X-rays."
In your covering letter you apparently mentioned your second letter, and I quote:
"I request your instructions as to further theoretical or practical steps which are to be taken in this matter."
What is the significance of this latter statement?
A By using this formulation I endeavored to keep control of the development of that matter. I never really counted on the realization of these experiments and I never had any intention to submit a serious proposal to Himmler which would cause the sterilization of millions of Jews, but if Himmler was to accept this nonsensical proposal I wanted to have a delaying effect on his idea for as long as possible.
If this suggestion had been serious on my part I would have had to be a fanatical Jew hater, and I think I have already proved that I was not such a person, and, in that connection, I may emphasize the following: At the same time I sent this letter to Himmler, influential circles made efforts that the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for cell physiology was to be transferred to an old Party member. At the head of that institute, Professor Dr. Warburg had been placed, who was a half Jews. It was the aim of these circles to obtain the merits of the research work which Warburg had been carrying on - who had incidentally won the Nobel Prize. If I had been a fanatical National Socialist I would have supported this endeavor of these circles. I, however, did exactly the opposite. I helped Warburg and I therefore sustained this institute for Germany and for the world.
Q Mr. President, I am now going to submit the important document # 12, to be found in my document book on page 32 and 33, of Professor Warburg. I want to point out that this affidavit had already been handed to the Family Brack before the beginning of this trial in order to help Brack in the trial which he expected before the de-Nazification board. After the beginning of the trial I turned to Professor Warburg, asking him to change the introduction of that affidavit to fit it for the purposes of the Military Tribunal at Nurnberg. Dr. Warburg corresponded to my request and I shall now read that document and I quote:
"I, Professor Warburg, scientific member of the Kaiser Wilhelm Association since 1914, director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Cell Physiology since 1931, member of the Royal Society in London, winner of the Nobel Prize for medicine, herewith give the following affidavit.
I have been advised that this affidavit will be submitted to the Military Tribunal I in Nurnberg and that I will be subject to severe penalties if I make false statements.
"The Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Cell Physiology, the director of which I have been since its foundation, was established and partly supported with funds from the Rockefeller Foundation. Because of this fact, I retained my position until 1941, although I am a half-Jew.
" In 1941 I was dismissed by the Kaiser Wilhelm Association. The then Chief of the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, Philipp Bouhler, learned about my dismissal and ordered his staff leader Viktor Brack to review my case.
"In a few weeks Viktor Brack succeeded in having my dismissal cancelled; in this way he most probably saved my life and for science a medical research institute of world renown working exclusively for peaceful purposes.
"'I did this', Brack told me on 21 June 1941, 'not for you or for Germany, but for the world.'
"Considering that Brack did this at a time when racial hatred and war psychosis had reached their climax in Germany, one has to admire the courage with which Brack advanced the cause of tolerance and the peaceful work of science against the basic principles of National Socialism.
"I have read the above affidavit and I have found it to be in all parts correct.
Signed: Professor Otto Warburg."
The authenticity of the certificate is certified by the notary von Lewinski on the 3rd of February 1947.
In addition to that document I also ....
THE PRESIDENT (Interrupting): Counsel, will you give us an exhibit number for this document?
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Mr. President, I beg your pardon, this will become Exhibit 32.
In addition to that document I submit Document #13 in my document volume which is the affidavit of Professor Dr. Walter Schoeller residing at Allensbach on the Lake of Constance. This will be Exhibit 33. I quote:
"For many years I was a member of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society and curator of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Cell Physiology which was headed by my friend Professor Warburg. In that capacity I heard from Dr. Telschow, the Director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society, that the Ministry of Culture has asked the Kaiser Welhelm Society to dismiss Warburg, as he was 'racially tainted', from his father's side. To prevent this I got into touch with Reichsleiter Bouhler who appeared open to my representations and entrusted his assistant in the Chancellery, Viktor Brack, with the handling of this case. Mr. Brack's efforts were completely successful. The pertinent depositions of Professor Warburg as made in his statement of 5 September 1946 are in every respect in accordance with my recollections."
This statement of 5 September 1946 is the one I mentioned earlier; namely the one Mr. Warburg made available to the Family Brack for the purposes of submission before the de-Nazification board. I sent copies of this affidavit to Professor Schoeller. He goes on:
"I have carefully read the above statement and found it correct in every respect."
Signed and certified by Dr. Carl Haensel under the date of 7th of February, 1947.
Mr. Brack, you have stated on the 28th of March, 1941 that you sent this letter to Himmler.
You further stated that if there was no other evidence for the correctness of your statement you would point to the affidavit of Professor Warburg. That is tho sense of what you said?
A. Yes.
Q In order to bring this matter to a conclusion, did you experience any resistance to your efforts inconnection with Warburg?
A Yes, I had considerable difficulties. The Gestapo and Bormann learned about my endeavors on behalf of Warburg. My own collaborators warned me a few times not to bring these matters to an explosion but I did that in spite of all these difficulties and helped Professor Warburg. I was then asked to call on the Gestapo and I was given a warning by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller.
Q Witness, I must again revert to your affidavit. In this affidavit you make some mention of having made a sterilization suggestion to Hitler. Rather, that you did not send him that suggestion directly, but you discussed that question with your chief, Reichsleiter Bouhler.
A It may well be that I discussed that matter with Bouhler. In view of the rejection of the Madagascar Plan I am sure that Bouhler would have rejected any such proposal, but I mixed these two things up and I am afraid that my memory wasn't quite clear at that time.
Q But, Mr. Brack, a document was submitted here, the Document No. 216, Exhibit 170, which is to be found in the German document book 6, page 54, and in the English document volume 6, page 56. This is a file notice of July, 1942. This file notice originates from the defendant Rudolf Brandt and refers to a conference which took place on tho 7th of July, 1942, between the Reichsfuehrer SS, SS Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Gebhardt, Bluecks and Klauberg.
You have the document book before you?
A Yes.
Q. In Paragraph two the name of Professor Dr. Hohlfelder is mentioned who is an X-ray specialist in Germany. He says "It should also be examined, preferably in cooperation with Professor Dr. Hohlfelder, an X-ray specialist in Germany, in what way sterilization of men could be achieved by X-ray treatment." Tell us who was Dr. Hohlfelder?
A. Hohlfelder was the head of the SS X-ray Unit.
Q. What do you mean by SS X-ray Unit?
A. The X-ray Unit was an institution of the SS and of Himmler. It had existed long before the War. It was committed to carry out investigations in areas which were subject to tuberculosis. A method had been found partly through Hohlfelder which made it possible for X-ray investigation to be carried out with a normal film. Such units were then established and were going through the country.
Q. But you know that from before 1941?
A. Yes, I think that took place in 1937 or 1938.
Q. Did you ever speak to Hohlfelder?
A. No, I didn't know Hohlfelder and I never talked to him.
Q. Witness, reading that document one would arrive at the thought that Himmler was consulting those X-ray specialists because he didn't quite consider your suggestion feasible which had preceded that letter; can that be possible?
A. Yes, that is possible, but in no way can be contest with that my good intention which I had when making that proposal. That of course you cannot remove. At first I received no report from Himmler's staff at all which let me conclude that he was continuing with his sterilization intentions. I was completely calm thinking that I had achieved my purpose and had deviated Himmler's mind from this sterilization idea. The Document NO 204, the reply letter from Himmler to me came to me only after a period of more than two months.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, the Document NO 204 can be found in the English Document Book Volume 6, page 38, and in the German Document Book Volume 6, page 37.
I may quote this short document in order to clarify matters:
"Top Secret" addressed to "Oberstdienstleiter Viktor Brack, Berlin W8 Voss Strasse 4, "A little while before his departure to Greece by plane the Reichsfuehrer-SS gave me the order to thank you very much for your report about the X-ray castration experiments forwarded to us with your letter of 28 March 1941.
He has read the report with interest and will discuss this question with you at the first opportunity."
What did you concluded from this letter?
A. This letter proves to me Himmler's interest. It contains no rejection, but made the pursuance of the entire matter dependent upon another discussion. This discussion, however, did not come about, and therewith I thought I had won a considerable period of time, and that Himmler would not continue with this idea.
Q. Did you speak to Himmler some other time in the year 1941?
A. Yes, I once more dealt with Himmler in 1941 in connection with the case of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt, whose affidavit was submitted this morning.
Q. I merely wanted to ascertain whether you had anymore dealings with Himmler in the year 1941. What kind of reaction did you feel in the case of Schmitt about whom you were speaking? One moment--
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, may I remind the Tribunal of the exhibit 25, which I have submitted this morning, which is the affidavit of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt, the most part of which I have already read. From this affidavit I shall only quote another two short paragraphs. This is in the German Document Book 2, page 59. I am sorry Document Book 1, page 59, to Schmitt. It says here:
"I was first arrested for a short period in November 1933 and again on 21 April 1934 when I was detained for 1-1/2 years. I was arrested for political reasons at the personal instigation of Heydrich.
I had helped about 18 persecuted anti-fascists over the border. Among these were: The well known socialist Sternberg from Berlin, Bert Brecht's female assistant and Brecht's child, Otto Strasser and his friends.
"It was Brack's opinion -- as he later frankly admitted that, though he was a national socialist himself, he did not expect every German to have the same political views. It should be the right of every German to leave Germany and to adopt another country, if he disapproved the national socialistical regime. If I helped those Germans to escape, my action was prompted by idealistic motives and should not be punished by the Nazi state. That is why he fully understood my action and did not hesitate to intervene on my behalf."
And then, Witness, it continues:
"In 1941 I was arrested for the third time, again for political reasons. Brack again then personally drafted together with Bouhler a petition to Himmler and kept my relatives informed about the position. He accompanied Bouhler to Himmler, and another time he called on Himmler alone in order to obtain my release. However, Himmler refused my release and declared that I would have to remain in the concentration camp for the rest of my life. Himmler also prevented all further efforts concerning myself with Hitler and warned both Bouhler and Brack not to undertake any further action on my behalf."
This is the matter of Dr. Ludwig Schmitt.
A. Yes.
Q. What reaction did you feel because of this fact?
A. This brought about an even stronger rejection of Himmler's attitude. I couldn't understand it. For many years I considered him to have a decent character and now suddenly I found that I had been wrong. All the human trends which he had demonstrated up to that point were suddenly lost. I assume that Heydrich's hand was apparent behind these matters, but of course I also erred in my opinion about Himmler.
Simultaneously I think also in tho summer of 1942 some other case arose in connection with some release from the concentration camp. Bouhler had endeavored that a former officer of the Werhrmacht be released from the concentration camp and shortly before this granted release he died under suspicious circumstances in the concentration camp. There were good reasons for suspicion. He had been visited and seen by some members of his family in a completely, healthy state, and I think that ho had died within two days. Bouhler discussed that matter with Himmler, all of which brought me to dispair of Himmler's attitude.
Q. Then you did have doubts about Himmler's mentality, but you didn't quite see through it yet, did you?
A. Well, I had believed in that man for too long a period of time. I thought that everything originated from Heydrich, and I thought that Heydrich was deceiving Himmler, but then for the first; time I became doubtful about Himmler himself.
Q. Did you ever hear that Himmler was pursued for sterilization intentions and in particular did you hear anything to the effect that your letter which we had mentioned in detail before, had been submitted to Pohl, the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A. I neither received knowledge of the fact that Himmler was pursuing the sterilization intentions, nor did I know that this letter had been submitted to Heydrich, not Pohl. I only reconstructed that from the documents which I have seen here.
Q. Now, Mr. Brack, you know that it is the Prosecution's position that you didn't only participate in the extermination of Jewry by writing this letter alone, but that you sent a further letter to Himmler in 1942; in this connection in particular you are brought in connection with a very infamous name, Globochik; would you please inform the Tribunal when and under what circumstances you made Globochik's acquaintance?
Beginning with September I accompanied Bouhler on a ride to the former Governor-General Frank. We then met Globocnik and I made his acquaintance at that time.
Q What was the subject of your conversation with Globocnik?
A I did not have any conversation with him at all. I just listened to what he said to Bouhler. Globocnik told Bouhler about his entire work in Poland; about his special assignment according to which the people who had been removed from Germany were committed for work in Poland. Furthermore, he said that factories were to be instituted in the Ukraine with similar installations as in the concentration camp of Dachau, which were to be instituted by the governor-general.
Q Did Globocnik give you an opportunity to view and inspect this work which was being created?
A I went to one of these works accompanied by the Reichsleiter, where a number of things were produced. Part of the workers were housed in barracks, and part of them in town, some had been residing there, and some had been re-settled. So far as I can remember, they were producing shoes, motor cars, small furniture, and there were some tailor shops. These other things I still remember. I am sure that there were a few thousand Jews there who were working there. In this rather great factory I saw nothing about any torture, or anything like that. The physical condition was good, and they seemed to be nourished properly.
Q Now, Mr. Brack, did Globocnik at that time tell you about the exploitation of labor - of the Jewish labor, which was intended by Pohl?
A No. There was no mention made of any exploitation. There was only mention made of proper commitment of that labor.
Q In that case you saw -
A What I saw was absolutely positive creative work.
Q It was no concentration camp, was it?
A No. It was a big work compound. There were no barbed wires, or anything like that.
It looked just like any other large factory.
Q Did you on this opportunity notice anything of any installations which could serve as any extermination of Jews? Did you see any gas chambers, or anything like that. Did you possibly hear something of such chambers from Globocnik, or somebody else?
A No, neither did I hear of anything like that, nor did I see anything which attracted my particular attention. It was my impression that this was an absolutely normal factory compound.
Q When was that again?
A It was in the Fall of 1941. I think the beginning of September 1941.
Q Now in the late Fall of 1941 you left for a considerable period of time, and that at the end of October 1941 you came back from your leave, is that true?
A Yes.
Q During that time a certain decision arose within you, as you have told me, which matured, may I put it that way?
A I wanted to volunteer for the front. I wanted to join the Army, because I did not like the entire political development. So far as I could judge, Hitler's aims became more and more radical. I personally was watched by the chief of the Gestapo. I was warned by him and Himmler warned me because of my interference in the case of Schmitt, and there were many similar measures so that I saw no longer any possibility for positive work to be done on by me. When voicing this intention I found intensive resistance on the part of many of my friends. They said if I loft my post, there would be nobody left to whom one could turn in case of political difficulties, and who, disregarding any personal agency, was always ready and willing to help, even political opponents.
Q Mr. Brack, may I catch up with something I forgot a little while ago. You were saying that Globocnik had been talking about a special assignment?