A Nothing in writing has been given me as to why I was sent to the concentration camp.
Q And you assert under oath at this moment you can't state why you were sent to that concentration camp?
A I don't know.
Q Then you stated that you were regarded by the police as a man under police custody; how do you know that?
A Because that was written on my card index which I received in Dachau, which was written on the PSV. It is in Germany polizeilich sicherheitsverwahrter, and then under police custody.
Q And before your arrest in the year 1940 were you never punished?
A Yes.
Q Perhaps you will tell the Tribunal why you were punished and what punishment you received and when it was? Under oath, I remind you, under oath.
A In the year 1934 I was punished and under this punishment I was arrested, and was then sent to the concentration camp.
Q In 1934?
A In 1934, yes.
Q Are you sure you said the right thing, 1934?
A Yes, 1934.
Q And how long did you remain in the camp?
A No,-- I was sentenced in 1934.
Q Why, I am asking you?
A In 1934 I was sentenced to 3 years prison because of falsification of documents and because of treason.
Q 6 years?
A Yes, 6 years prison.
Q Up to 1940?
A Yes, up to 1940.
Q And after this sentence you were sent to a concentration camp?
A I was to be pardoned and released, and I was told that-
The INTERPRETER: Will you speak a little slower, and make some pauses, so the translator can catch up.
A (continued answer) After serving my sentence I was released, but shortly before my release was again arrested by the police and sent over to Berlin and there it was said that I had to receive some lessons, educational lessons in Berlin, and then in the Police Headquarters at Berlin I had one interrogation, and then I was told "you are going to be released now". At the occasion of this interrogation my personal datas were established and I heard nothing further until one day I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q Witness,--Witness, in the sentence, on the strenght of which you were convicted to 6 years, did you at that time say you were merely under police security?
A Yes.
Q Was that a so-called protective custody?
A Since it had often occurred that people who were released from the prison were sent to a concentration camp. A little while before my release from the prison I went to the Chief Prosecutor in Berlin and asked him what my situation was. He then wrote me saying that one my sentence was served, I think it was the 3d of May, 1940, I would be released and everything would be over and done with.
Q I am sure that was not what was written in that letter.
A Yes, I received that letter.
Q I am sure that was not the contents of the letter. Witness, I am an experienced lowyer, and I know that some such a thing could not have been in that letter?
A This was the contents of the letter.
The Interpreter: Speak a little slower. Speak just as slow as you spoke when the prosecutor was examining.
MR.HARDY: I object to defense counsel stating his opinion as to what was in the letter. The question is to the witness as to what was in the letter, and not the defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may proceed.
Q Witness, were these 6 years of prison the only sentence you received before being sentenced to the concentration camp, or did you before 1934 receive any other sentence?
A I cannot remember that at the moment.
Q So you cannot remember. In that case I should like you to refresh your memory. You are here under oath.
A I cannot remember at the moment to what extent I was sentenced before 1934 to any punishment. I can only say at the occasion of this sentence in 1934 I was not put under protective custody and in 1940 I was to be released, to be released from the prison.
Q And what was the date of your sentence?
A May 1934
Q And what was the name of the Court?
A It was in Berlin.
Q What kind of a Court?
A I was sentenced by a special court. That was in May 1934.
Q And what if the files were brought here and you would find a number of other sentence which had been imposed on you?
A Well, you could tell me that once you had the files, but at the moment I cannot remember. I can say that under oath.
Q Witness, with reference to your testimony today you have been interrogated before, haven't you?
A I was interrogated once before.
Q When was that?
AA few days ago.
Q A few days ago, did you say the very same thing at the time, the very same thing as today?
A I believe I said the very same thing.
A In that case you had a very good memory with reference to the things you testified today?
A In 1940 I was in a very sick state, and was sent from the concentrantion camp Neuengamme to Dachau, so that I can only remember the previous time if you refresh my memory.-
Q No; you have to do that yourself, on the basis of your oath, and I think I am telling you that for the third time.
A You cannot force me to make any statements if I cannot remember.
Q During the experiments,--with reference to the experiments you witnessed in Dachau, had you seen a physician, Dr. Ruff, from the Luftwaffe?
A That I cannot say. I saw many physicians come from the Luftwaffe. My recollection isn't strong enough to mention any names.
Q How about a physician, Dr. Blome?
A I can only remember these names I have mentioned here, only.
DR.SAUTER: In that case I have no further questions. Thank you.
DR. VORWERK: Dr. Vorwerk, counsel for Romberg.
BY DR. VORWERK:
Q Witness, what kind of experiments in the concentration camp of Dachau were, according to your knowledge, the first ones to be carried through?
A In February 1942 the malaria experiments started, and at the same time the high altitude experiments of the Luftwaffe.
Q You used the expression "exhibition patients" what do you mean by that?
A I mean the very first chosen patients who participated, who were used in the high altitude experiments. They lived in a specially selected room and they were well nourished. They received cigarettes. They were always presented, and were once introduced to Himmler at the occasion of his visit, and Himmler made big premises to them in case they survived, and told them they would be released, and so on. And, in addition to these 10 patients a large number-
Q I was only asking you about those 10 patients. Did you got into contact with these 10 patients, did you speak to them?
A I visited them on several occasions.
Q Was there a possibility for the other camp inmates to get into contact with these 10 inmates?
A Not for the other inmates, but for such persons who were working in the hospital.
Q So these 10 people told you about Himmler's visit; do you know these 10 people were actually out to participate in experiments?
A Yes, they were.
Q But then you probably spoke to these persons about the experiments?
A Yes. Shall I tell you something about that?
Q Yes, if you will.
A These people told me,--these people told me that they went into this high altitude chamber with a so-called protective installation. That they were placed under observation under 10, 120 13 and 14 thousand meters, that they were very exhausted, but as far as I remember they all survived.
Q Did you speak to them about the persons who were conducting the experiments?
A No, as far as I know Dr. Rascher himself was the one who conducted them.
Q Do you know whether anyone besides Dr. Rascher participated?
A I saw how during the first few weeks, during the high altitude experiments, a number of officers of the Luftwaffe, or at any rate they were in Luftwaffe uniform were present there.
Q You probably don't remember the names?
A No, I don't
Q Would you recognize these persons if you did see them, today?
A I hardly think so. It was too long time ago.
Q Would you try to recognize someone in the defendants dock?
A I tried that before, but it is impossible.
Q You said that these 10 people were "exhibition patients;" beyond that you said that other experimental subjects were used in the low pressure chambers, but do you know anything positive about who experimented upon those persons?
A Yes, Dr. Rascher.
Q Except these 10 experimental subjects, did you discuss these experiments with them?
Q No, I cannot remember.
Q Didn't you speak to anyone who saw you; didn't you speak to anyone except these 10 people?
A I spoke to a number of the 10 people that I met.
Q But other than that you didn't speak with anyone?
A No.
Q Then how do you know there were other experimental subjects in addition to the 10 people you mentioned?
A Because on various occasions I saw that patients were lead to this station.
Q How do you come to that conclusion? How could you conclude that these patients were used for these high altitude experiments? Did you actually see them led into the chamber?
A No, I only arrived at that conclusion because at that period of time no other experiments were carried on.
Q If I understood you correctly you did not observe that other experimental subjects were used in this chamber in addition to these ten people?
A No, I did not see that.
Q And nobody told you about it?
A Yes, on repeated occasions I was told about it.
Q Where you also told who the one was that was carrying on these Experiments? I am speaking of the others, not of the ten people.
A Yes, the very same Dr. Rascher who had these ten patients.
Q Do you know whether, in addition to Dr. Rascher, there was anyone else who participated in these experiments?
A I have already said as far as I remember there were two physicians of the Luftwaffe who were active there.
Q I should like to ask you to differentiate exactly between the Experiments with the so-called exhibition patients, to use your words, and the experimental subjects, who did not belong to these exhibition patients, and I now am speaking about these persons who were not such exhibition patients. Who was the one who carried on these experiments?
A They were conducted by Dr. Rascher. I can only rely upon hearsay because I neither saw the experiments on the ten persons nor on the others. I only heard about this since we discussed the matter in the hospital.
Q You heard about it? Then, if I understood you correctly, all the ten persons, after the conclusion of these experiments, were still living?
AAs far as I remember, yes.
Q How often were you sentenced by a court in your life?
A That I cannot tell you exactly
Q How often approximately?
A In 1934 I was sentenced.
Q You have already told that to the High Tribunal. I now ask you ho often you were sentenced?
A I was sentenced to six years in prison.
Q I am now asking you whether you want to answer my question or not?
A Yes, I have now answered your question.
Q So you are still saying that you do not remember how often you were sentenced by a court?
A I cannot remember what happened before 1934.
DR. VORWERK: Thank you.
DR. PELCKMANN: Dr. Pelckmann counsel for Defendant Schaefer.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Witness, you said that in the year of 1934 you were not sentenced to protective custody?
A No.
Q Was a protective custody applied for by the Prosecutor at that time?
A No, there was no talk about protective custody at all.
Q You have said before that a special court sentenced you; is that correct?
A Yes, a special fast court sentenced me. I was arrested. About ten days later I came into the courtroom and was then sentenced to six years prison. Rather, I was first sentenced to four years and then to six years.
Q According to our practice of law there are special courts set up for political crimes, but you stated that you were sentenced because of falsifying documents and fraud?
A Yes, because of falsifying documents and because of committing fraud, I was sentenced in a special court, but then the matter was brought up again and then subsequently an ordinary court sentenced me to six years.
Q But that was not political court?
A No, it was not political court.
Q Now, witness, how does the Prosecutor who examined you previously know -- how does he know about your experiences in the concentration camp?
A Because I was interrogated about it at one time.
Q Well, how could he know that you had such experiences in the concentration camp? Didn't you tell anyone about it previously?
A I don't quite understand that.
Q At the moment you are in Bamberg in confinement, did you in Bamberg tell the police or the prosecutor who was prosecuting there, did you tell him anything about your experiences in the concentration camp?
A Yes, I talked about it.
Q And did you subsequently report to anyone because you could tell something about these cruelties? Did you report that to anyone?
A Yes, yes I reported about that. I wanted to make statements about it.
Q When was that?
A I cannot say that exactly.
Q Well, approximately when was it?
A Well, it was some time ago, a few weeks perhaps.
Q You have stated that for the first time you told the prosecutor-you spoke to the prosecutor about four days ago?
A Yes, a few days ago. I was interrogated here a few days ago.
Q And before that you gave an indication that you could tell something about cruelties committed in concentration camps; is that correct?
A Yes
Q And approximately when was that?
A That was a few weeks ago.
Q Since when, Witness, are you in confinement in Bamberg?
A Ever since the 14th of June.
Q In that case I can assume that your report that you knew something about cruelties was only made at the time you were in confinement?
A Yes, but I have spoken about that a long time before, that, but I only officially reported that I knew something about these cruelties, only since I was in confinement.
Q You were in confinement since June; not before that?
A No.
Q Did you read newspapers before that, and did you listen to the radio?
A Yes.
Q Did you know that here in the trial and on the part of the prosecution such cruelties were discussed and brought into the courtroom?
A Yes.
Q There was the International Military Tribunal here that discussed these cruelties?
A Yes.
Q And at that time you were a free man?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't put yourself at their disposal?
A Yes, I was continuously available at the courtroom in Dachau. I transferred all the material of the Dachau Malaria Station which I could salvage and put it at the disposal of the court in Dachau.
Q But you said that you only made a report regarding your knowledge a few weeks ago?
A Yes, in this matter, because I now read that there was a trial against SS physicians and so on, and this is why I put myself at your disposal in order to testify.
Q And when you were still a free man who was it that you gave this material to and when?
A That was a year ago in Dachau.
Q And whom did you report to?
A Well., these were the investigation authorities in the Dachau Concentration Camp. These was an American Lieutenant Bauer or Lieutenant Cont, and at that time I gave them that material.
Q Were you treated as a political inmate in the camp or as a criminal inmate?
A Well, the treatment -- well, how do you mean that?
Q Well, did you have a green triangle or a red triangle?
A I had a green triangle.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, I should like to ask some more technical questions to the witness tomorrow so that I could have some more opportunity to study the document book.
All I wanted to avoid now was that the witness could prepare himself to answer the questions which I had wanted to put now, and this is why I put these questions now.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue the cross examination tomorrow morning. Pardon me, the adjournment will be until Monday morning.
DR. WEISGERBER: Dr. Weisgerber, counsel for the Defendant Sievers.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q Witness, where were you born?
A Hanover.
Q It is correct that you were sentenced because of fraud and falsifying document?
MR. HARDING: Your Honor, I object strenuously to any continuation of questions of this type. They have asked the witness questions of this type several times. I think they've got their answers now.
THE PRESIDENT: The same question should not be asked more than once but I do not know it this is the same line of inquiry. You may proceed.
BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q Were you sentenced before that time for fraud and falsifying documents?
A That I don't know at the moment
Q At the experimental station of Dr. Schilling you experienced quite a number of experiments?
A Yes.
Q And you can not remember the names of the visitors?
A No.
Q How did Standartenfuehrer Dr. Sievers come to your attention?
A Only because of his negotiations with Dr. Ploetner. At that time Dr. Ploetner was to go from the malaria station to the Ahnenerbe and it was on this matter that Dr. Sievers was there on a few occasions and had come negotiations with Dr. Ploetner. This is why I remember Dr. Sievers and clearly recollect his name.
Q He was to be included in the -- did Ahnenerbe have anything to do with malaria experiments?
A The Ahnenerbe had nothing whatsoever to do with malaria experiments. It was only Dr. Ploetner that continued to work on these natters.
Q Since you are so well informed about the contents of the discussion between Sievers and Dr. Ploetner, do you perhaps also know that at that time there were pectin experiments in Dachau?
A Yes, that is correct, I remember the name pectin.
Q And who was charged to conduct these pectin experiments?
A I remember, I think, that was Dr. Kunzengruber, a physician who was later released.
Q Did Dr. Ploetner have anything to do with these matters?
A Yes. I assume that at the time Dr. Ploetner took over the Ahnenerbe was carrying out pectin experiments.
Q Did Sievers have any discussions with Dr. Schilling?
A I know that he went to Dr. Schilling on two occasions.
Q Were these just personal visits or were they business visits?
A I can not say because I did not attend these visits.
Q But since you were in a position to observe anything so well, you may perhaps tell me something about the duration of these visits?
A I think they were short visits
Q And do you know whether there a correspondence, an exchange of letters between Sievers and Schilling?
A I only know that the Reich physician wrote to Professor Schilling stating that Dr. Ploetner was leaving us and was transferring to the Ahnenerbe and that Standartenfuehrer Sievers would settle the matter.
Q Can you state the year approximately?
A That must have been at the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944; I can not remember exactly.
Q Well, that is the time when Sievers visited Ploetner?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Were so-called exhibition patients presented to Sievers?
A I only know that on various occasions they went to the hospital but I don't know where they went to.
Q Did they merely pass through the corridor or did Dr. Ploetner and Sievers actually remain in the hospital for any length of time?
AAt the office of Dr. Ploetner, an office which then belonged to the malaria station, they had conferences occasionally and I thin subsequently they went to the station Ahnenerbe, but I can not remember that in detail.
Q So if I understand you correctly, Dr. Ploetner and Sievers only went through the hospital when leaving the office of Dr. Ploetner and going to another part of the camp?
A No, another part of the hospital, the so-called Ahnenerbe station.
Q As far as you know, did Sievers have anything to do with malaria research?
A Sievers had nothing to do with us.
Q Do you know whether Sievers in a physician?
A I don't know that.
Q Now I am interested in how you found out about the name of Sievers?
A I found that cut because of the correspondence to Professor Schilling from Berlin, and it always was said that, for instance, today Standartenfuehrer Dr. Sievers would arrive, the one who is responsible for Ahnenerbe, and then we saw Dr. Sievers when he arrived.
Q If you did not know the names of many other visitors, it is rather remarkable that you just remember the name of Sievers.
A Between Professor Schilling and Dr. Ploetner, who was assigned to Dr. Schilling as an assistant from Berlin, between these two there was a strained relationship, and because Dr. Ploetner wanted to leave one way or another, we were interested in the matter, and when finally the notice came from Berlin that Dr. Ploetner was to be removed, the name Sievers was mentioned in that connection; and that is the reason why I remember the name.
Q Was Sievers present during any of the experiments?
A That I don't know.
DR. WEISGERBER: I have not further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 December 1946, at 930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 December 1946, 0930-1630; Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants are present in court this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will so record.
Defendants' counsel will proceed with the cross-examination of the witness.
AUGUST VIEWEG -- Resumer CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for defendant Beiglbock):
Q. Witness, this is a question directed to your personal data. When exactly were you born; what day and what year?
A. On the 17th of September, 1895.
Q. In Hanover?
A. Yes, in Hanover.
Q. On Friday you told us that you were the Kapo of the Professor Schilling malaria experiments.
A. No, I was never a Kapo acting at the Malaria Station of Dr. Schilling.
Q. Didn't you have a position which was similar to the one of Kapo?
A. We were employed in the laboratory of Dr. Schilling.
Q. You have told us that you were able to watch the proceedings in that sea water station from your barracks. Is that right?
You have told us that people were carried into the courtyard in stretchers. I am now asking you, can you tell us why there people were carried into the courtyard?
A. On various occasions I saw people being carried into the courtyard. Part of these people were sent into the barracks of the hospital because they were exhausted. In two or three cases I saw how these people, who were carried on the stretchers in that manner -
Q. (Interposing) We will talk about that later. We are going to say something about the morgue; we will come to that later.
On that occasion, didn't you see a photographer who was taking pictures?
A. I saw one in the courtyard between the laboratory and the experimental station, and I was able to watch photographs being taken on numerous occasions.
Q. How were the light conditions in these barracks? Were they sufficiently equipped for photographic work?
A. I can hardly judge that; the photographs which I saw were taken in the courtyard.
Q. You told us about a quarrel between a nurse and one experimental subject. I am asking you, was that at the beginning or at the end of the experiment with sea water?
A. I think it was at the beginning of the experiment. I now remember the name of that nurse. The first name was Max. There were some differences of opinion, and they fought it out in the courtyard. After that the nurse would -
Q. (Interposing) Very well. Can you remember the nationality of this Max? Wasn't he an Austrian, coming from Styria?
A. Yes, I think he was an Austrian, and he came from Styria. I think he was even a Gypsy.
Q. Thank you.
Can you not remember, perhaps, whether max was doling out the rations to the people justly?
A. I can't say that, but I think that the quarrel concerned this distribution of rations.
Q. Were you able to walk freely around the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had an opportunity daily to speak to the nurses and the experimental subjects, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't they tell you about important happenings there, and not only the details which you have already mentioned to us on Friday?
A. After the early days of the sea water experiments these inmates did not leave their rooms, so that we were unable to talk to them.
Q. But you did have an opportunity to find out something about what was going on there?
A. Yes; we talked about various matters, but I cannot remember any details
Q. Now, the most important thing; did you hear that there were any dead there, people who had died because of the experiments?
A. I only remember from my own observations, that I saw how persons were carried down to the morgue from that station.
Q. But you did not have a positive report that somebody died?
A. I cannot say that under oath. I cannot remember that exactly now.
Q. Do you also remember that medical students were living next door to the barracks who were inmates too?
A. Next to the barracks, as far as I remember, there was this chamber, which I believe was formerly the pathological museum.
Q. Didn't you see any medical students there, walking about in their white robes?
A. Nurses, yes.
Q. Do you know the nurse who was an innate too? The name is Pielweil.
A. Yes, I remember that name. He was a young, strong man, coming from Vienna.
Q. Yes, I think so.
Now let us return to the carrying out of the dead. Did Pielweil ever tell you that any fatalities occurred?
A. I cannot say that now.
Q. Is it possible that the bodies which were carried in the direction of the hospital morgue were perhaps carried to the X-ray station or a laboratory?
A. The road to the morgue went across the courtyard; the way to the X-ray station was in an entirely different direction.
DR. STEINBAUER: I have no further questions.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, our headphones are dead. We couldn't hear the last two or three questions very well. I suggest that we discontinue until the phones are put into condition.
THE PRESIDENT: It is reported that some of the earphones are not working. That had better be investigated.
BY DR. MARX: (Counsel for the Defendant Becker-Freyseng)
Q. Witness, you spoke about a Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau. I am now asking you did you see some kind of a placard or a letterhead where such a name could be seen?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how did you find out about that name?
A. This name was mentioned among the inmates because the experiments that were carried out there were allegedly for the benefit of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Did you at that time see anything about Dr. Rascher, and at the time Dr. Beiglboeck came there, was Rascher there when Dr. Beiglboeck came or was he not? Did you know about Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes, I knew about him. I saw him daily.
Q. Did you see any connection between Rascher and Beiglboeck or had Rascher already left when Dr. Beiglboeck arrived in Dachau?
A. I cannot say anything about that.
Q. Well, I thought you had such good powers of observation.
A. The successor of Dr. Rascher was Dr. Kurt Bloetner.
Q. Did you at any time see a Luftwaffe officer talking to Dr. Rascher? Did you ever see them talking to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe them? Can you tell us something about their rank or how they looked?
A. I remember having seen two gentlemen from the Luftwaffe there. One was tall and slim and the other was somewhat stouter. However, I do not remember their rank.
Q. Were they medical officers?
A. No. They were Luftwaffe officers.
Q. Can you differentiate? Can you differentiate?
A. Yes, according to their uniforms.
Q. Well, did they have this yellow sign? What did the Luftwaffe officer lock like?
A. I cannot tell you that exactly. We had been told that this was Mr. "So-and-so," and the other one had another name, but we were never told what rank they had, and I cannot remember that.
Q. But you are sure that they were officers? You are sure that they were officers of the Luftwaffe and not medical officers?
A. I cannot say that. It had been said that he was a professor or something like that. I am not sure about it.
Q. Did you know that Dr. Rascher was in connection with the Institute for Military Science in connection with Ahnenerbe? And is there any possibility that you interpreted that institution as a Luftwaffe institution? Is that possible?
A. Yes, that is possible.
Q. So at that time there was no name of Luftwaffe Institute in Dachau, but what you wanted to say was that "I was of the opinion that there could be such an institute, but I am not sure about it," and you merely drew a conclusion, is that right, because if such experiments were carried out there? Is that a correct statement?
A. Yes, that is correct, and I did not want to express myself with reference to the Rascher Institute as "Luftwaffe Institute."
Q. Yes. That was me rely your way of thinking that this was a Luftwaffe Institute."
A. Yes.
Q. But if you were to be told that possibly it was not a Luftwaffe Institute, then you would still leave that question open, wouldn't you? 453