And, I should consider it as particularly sutiable if the examination of this witness would not take place until the prosecution, too, have submitted the affidavits from this document book. Otherwise, you see, I should have to wait until after the presentation of these affidavits from Document Book No. 5, and then ask that this witness shall be called again. So that I could prove contradictions on the basis of this affidavit.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, I have several answers to Defense Counsel. First of all, we filed General Secretary Document Books on sea water experiments within the requirements of the Tribunal; that is, twenty four hours within which we wished to present the document books on sea water. This should have been placed in the hands of defense counsel yesterday, so I presume it was delivered to the Defense Counsel Information Centre.
Secondly, as we explained in the procedure the first day of the trial, we said it would not be possible -- pardon me -- we said it would be necessary on several occasions for testimony of witnesses to over-lap: That is, when we called a witness on Malaria, that at the same time this witness can testify as to the sea water and other experiments.
It was necessary for us at that time for convenience and in order to save the Tribunal's time here. We can not call the witnesses back daily as we arrive at each experiment.
JUDGE SEBRING: May I ask the Secretary-General's office if he has a record which shows when these document books were placed in the Defense Counsel Information Center? I haven't received it.
MR. HARDY: The Secretary-General has the document books in his hand now, your Honor.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I say something, your Honor? My colleagues and I myself received the document book with these three affidavits at 10:30 a.m. to day.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I want to impress upon the Tribunal that it will be next to impossible for the prosecution to call witnesses, as I said before, to testify from one experiment to another and only call them after we have presented the documents on a particular experiment. In that case we would have to wait and hold the witnesses until the presentation of all documents and evidence has been completed because each witness that we will call can testify to more than one experiment. Furthermore, we have complied with the regulations of the Tribunal end filed the Document Book. However, as to what the witness can testify to now, I feel that the position the defense takes, that they have not had the document book, is immaterial at this time. These document books are placed in the Defense Information Center in boxes containing the defense counsels' names. If they did not go to the Defense Information Center after recess last evening, then naturally they would not have the copy until this evening.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you say that they were in the boxes at that time?
MR. HARDY: I can not say that, Your Honor, inasmuch as it is not our duty to deliver them to the Defense Counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that, but you can't say that, can you?
MR. HARDY: No, I can't, your Honor.
DR. PECLMANN: This morning, after most of my colleagues had already entered this courtroom to participate in the session, I received this document book at 10.30. The document books for the other colleagues had just arrived. They were not in the shelves for the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Examination of the witness may proceed at this time concerning sea-water experiments but the witness may be recalled at some later date soon, possibly Monday, for cross-examination upon those letters by the defendants.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, do you know about the experiments conducted at Dachau with sea water?
A In the year 1944, I do not remember the exact month any more, a department was created in the so-called Block 3, Stage # 1, which previously had been occupied by malaria patients. This department was prepared for so-called sea water experiments Forty to sixty, I do not remember the exact number any more, gypsies were confined there and the door was locked.
There was a nurse in this ward who had previously been a nurse with us, I can't recall his name any more, and several Luftwaffe officers appeared, also some non-commissioned officers, and they took over the management of the whole project. This department in itself was isolated; none of us were allowed to enter there. However, from my section I was very well able to observe this department. These patients were confined there; they were also allowed to take some exercise in the yard during the first initial few days and then they told us that they were being nourished with Luftwaffe rations. As far as I can remember, this ration was continued for two weeks and then this nourishment was withdrawn. According to the stories we heard, because, after all, we wanted to know what was going on there, we were told that these people had been divided into three or four sections and that various methods of treatment were given to them. One part of them was to be given only pure seawater; another part was to get distilled sea water; and the third group was to be given sea water mixed together with some tablets. I can only remember this because we were told about it. But I have seen the following: that in this ward a certain amount of unrest began to develop. I mutiny almost broke out there at one time. They beat up their nurse. One nurse then was released by other personnel. I can remember that from this ward on various occasions people were carried out on stretchers who seemed to be in a very excited condition. In part they were then brought to other sections in order to be treated there. What happened to them there I do not know. On two or three occasions, I believe to be able to remember to a certainty, a stretcher was carried out by the nurses with a cloth and a blanket over it and these stretchers were carried to the so-called morgue. The whole experiment, as far as I can remember, lasted approximately 8 weeks and then the whole section was cleared out again.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken).
FOLLOWING RECESS.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, before the recess your were describing in detail sea water experiments. Do you have any more details to add?
A No.
Q Witness, they conducted these sea water experiments in one of the rooms in the malaria station, is that correct?
A No, this room officially belonged to the hospital, however, we had occupied this room with our patients and then had to clear this room in order to enable the sea water experiments to be carried through.
Q Were you ever in that room where they were conducting the sea water experiments?
A No.
Q Witness, you stated to the Tribunal that you observed various people being carried out of this room on a stretcher covered with a sheet and a blanket Can you tell the Tribunal what position you were into observe these people being carried out on a stretcher?
A I could go about the hospital as feely as I liked, because we had the patients in a few barracks and the Laboratorium were in another barracks close by.
Q Then you personally saw these people being carried out of the room in which the sea water experiments were taking place? Witness, did you hear the question?
A Yes, these people were carried out of the room where the sea water experiments were conducted through the corridor and through the street, which led from one barracks to another.
Q Would you say, from your observation, that these people being carried out on the stretcher from the room in which the sea water experiments had taken place - that these people were seriously ill or were they dead, witness?
AAccording to my recollection, some of them were very exhausted and were carried out of the sea water experimental chamber to other departments of the hospital. In two or three cases, I can say with certainty that they were carried to the so-called hospital morgue.
Q Witness, you also stated that you know about the details of the experiments that you know of the type of water given to the prisoners. Could you kindly tell the Tribunal how you gained that knowledge?
A The knowledge regarding these details I gained from conversations, after the conclusion of these experiments, which were carried on with the nurse and some of the surviving patients.
Q That is the nurses who worked in the room where the sea water experiments were taking place, witness?
A Yes.
Q Witness, what nationality were the inmates that were used for these sea water experiments?
A That I cannot say. Only gypsies were used for these experiments, coming from various concentration camps, Buchenwald, etc.
Q Witness, we will go back to the malaria experiments for the moment. What was the nationality of the people used for the malaria experiments, what type of people were they?
A The biggest part, approximately two hundred patients, used for the malaria experiments were Germans, another big part were Polish clergymen and the rest were partly Russians, some Yugoslovians and some Poles.
Q Were any prisoners of war used in these experiments?
AAmong the Russians, a great part of them were Prisoners of War.
Q What was the total number of people used in these malaria experiments from your knowledge?
AAccording to my knowledge, during the malaria experiments 1,084 experimental subjects were used.
Q Will you kindly tell us, witness, how many of these subjects used in the malaria experiments died as a result of the experiments?
AAccording to my knowledge there died directly at the malaria station either directly or because of the treatment with drugs, seven or eight. I can describe the details if you like. The first case was an Austrian who afterwards became ill because of these malaria experiments. The assistant at that time, Dr. Bracktel, who was at the same time the deputy physician at the hospital, made a liver puncture and at that time he bled to death.
Q Witness, then you state from your knowledge that seven or eight died from the experiments. Of that number who were dead, was that in the malaria station itself that they died?
A This was the number of dead, who were not transferred by us to another department, but who died at our station or a few hours after they had been transferred to another station.
Q Have you any knowledge as to what happened to some of the other experiments who were transferred to some other station after they were experimented on? That is, did some others die after they were experimented on?
A From our patients, during the course of the years since we had them come to us or observation, I can recollect that another sixty patients died. Whether they died of malaria or other consequences as a result of the experiments, I can not say with certainty.
Q Witness, I want to back-track a bit and ask you why you were sentenced to the concentration camp or why you were placed in the concentration camp by the Nazis? For what reason?
A No special reasons have been given to me. I was asked to appear at the Berlin Police station. I was there for several weeks and after that I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q What was your classification while you were in the concentration camp, that of political prisoner or what?
A I came as a person that had to be safe-guarded by the police and as such was transferred to the concentration camp.
Q You have no idea why you were arrested by the Nazis and sent to a concentration camp?
A Nothing was told to me.
Q When were you released from the concentration camp?
AAfter the liberation by the Americans, I remained for another few weeks at the concentrations camp since there were a number of malaria patients at the concentration camp. Then on the 15th or 19th of July 1944 I left when all other nationalities were transported away from Dachau.
Q Witness, let us go on. Do you have any other details to tell the Tribunal about other experiments that were conducted at Dachau?
A I can testify something about the experiments which were carried out at the Aviation Institute with reference to this Ahnenerbe since I often saw this Institute myself.
Q Would you kindly explain to the Tribunal what you saw at this Institute of the Luftwaffe in the Concentration camp Dachau?
A In February 1942 simultaneously with the opening of the Malaria Station at Block 5, a few blocks were opened for a series of experiments with reference to altitude. Ten inmates, so-called strong men, which had been selected for the malaria experiments by the Camp Administration were then transferred to this department. Later a so-called pressure chamber arrived and these ten patients were experimented upon with high-altitude experiments. I first gained knowledge about this at the time when I was yet in the hospital. On the second of April, 1942, I personally was transferred to the hospital for malaria cases and the ward where I was lying bordered on to the room where to chamber was. I can say that the minute the motors of this chamber started to rotate there was a death-like silence in the hospital since it had often happened that patients or even nurses, who at the time of the experiment, could be seen in to the corridors of the hospital, and were immediately taken to the place of these experiments. These ten patients who were to be the official experimental subjects were really well-nourished, received smokes and as far as we know were the so-called exhibition patients but besides these ten patients a great number of people were chosen at random from the camp and they were always brought to this high-altitude experimental institute. Further, within the framework of this matter I remember that among others a block-leader who as far as I know was sent into the hospital--I think he had pneumonia-was also taken to this experimental station and a few days later was brought to the morgue. In our department where malaria patients were, one day a patient who for some reason had some difference with the Camp Leader Zill, was taken to this experimental station the following day. It was said at the time that he was transferred but next day I found him in the morgue. By rumor I found out that a number of patients on whom experiments were conducted died and were sent to the morgue.
Following these high altitude experiments, at the rear chamber of this room a water basin was installed and there is where the water experiments were carried through. I personally saw this department. I saw the water basin and I talked with the nurses and the chemical personnel who was employed there and whatever I know about it I found out from them. I did not see one such experiment myself, but at one time Dr. Rascher told me on the occasion of a visit at that time I had to deliver a message from Prof. Schilling--and he asked me whether I felt the desire to take a cold bath. That was time they had brought a number of women from the Concentration Camp Ravensbruck to that place. By hearsay I knew that the frozen patients were to be warned by these women. Even with reference to these experiments I know partly from those who participated and partly from the nurses that four patients had died. I was told by a chemist who was working there-he said that one day Dr. Rascher came along and ordered that certain of the men were to be taken along. The personnel was afraid that he was going to carry on the experiments on their persons. He further said that he went with these men who tend to these camp and they took hold of a few people at his desk and went out to the crematorium and at that time out there tried these ten drugs on these persons and then determined whether these ten had a deadly effect on the persons. Later this department was turned over to our Assistant Doctor Kurt Ploettner and as far as I remember coagulating drugs were produced at Dachau. These drugs were tried out in the hospital at Dachau by surgeons but I don't know what success they had. Dr. Kurt Ploettner, a few months before the liberation of the camp with 25 inmates and with the files of Ahnenerbe fled to the mountains where they wanted to produce this drug on a large scale.
Q Witness, are there any other experiments that you know about at Dachau?
A I know that at Block 1 in the hospital--that was the so-called Surgical Block--a number of biological experiments were carried out. That is, a certain number of Polish chlergymen were infected with phlegmones in order to treat them biologically. A number of these experimental patients dies as a result and others survived in the hospital but with amputations.
Q Do you recall who conducted the phlegmones experiments?
A I cannot say that exactly. I only know that a certain Obersturmbannf fuehrer Dr. Schuetz, who worked with the camp doctor Dr. Hoffmann and I remember that the frequent occasions he came to the hospital and had carried on experiments from that department. I was present when Dr. Schütz had a discussion with Dr. Brachtel about one such experiment with reference to gonorrhea drugs.
Q Witness, in all these various experiments you have listed here today, how were the people or prisoners chosen for these experiments?
A The patients for the malarial experiments were chosen by the SS Camp Administration and were transferred to Prof. Schilling at his request. How the other patients for Ahnenerbe and etc. were selected, I dont know. I believe, however, that Dr. Rascher or his employees chose these people in the camp on their own initiative.
Q Were any of these people chosen for the malarial experiments or the other experiments, volunteers?
A No.
Q Were any of these people freed after they had endured the experiments
A No.
Q How did you happen to be picked for the malarial experiments?
A In december of the year 1941, the camp personnel had to appear outside of the courtyard and Dr. Hoffmann, the Camp Leader, chose two or three hundred people from the ranks or the people there. We were the first patients.
Q You mean, witness, that you were merely selected at random?
A Yes. I don't know what the directives were at the time but I think that the Camp Administration settled that question among themselves. I remember at the end of 1943 a directive came from Berlin that only Russians and Poles were to be used for the malarial experiments.
Q When you were selected for these experiments did you consent to be experimented on?
A No. We didn't know what we were selected for. We were selected in December and a card index was made of our names. We were not allowed to leave our block and then from February 1942 onward we were sent to the Malarial Experimental Station and it was only then we knew why we were selected in December. 432 Dr.SAUTTER:
Dr. Sauter, counsel for defendants Blome and Ruff.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, you have to answer a few questions for me, because from your answers so far I am not quite clear about your position. I should like to remind you that the answers which you are giving now are given under oath. You are clean about that, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q Witness, you have started that you were brought into a concentration camp in the year of 1940?
A Yes.
Q And up to the,--and up to the capitulation in 1945 you remained in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Counsel for prosecution has already asked you repeatedly why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q And then I heard you say that you had no idea whatsoever why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q And if understood rightly you then said "nothing was told me", is that right?
A Yes.
Q But you must know why you were in that concentration camp?
A I don't know it. Nothing has been told me. I was called to the Berlin Police Headquarters. I remained there for several weeks. I was interrogated, and I was only interrogated about my personal data and then after several weeks one day together with several other men who was in prison there to I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q Witness, Haven't you ever received anything in writing as to why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Nothing in writing has been given to me.
Q Now, you say that under oath, Witness.
A Nothing in writing has been given me as to why I was sent to the concentration camp.
Q And you assert under oath at this moment you can't state why you were sent to that concentration camp?
A I don't know.
Q Then you stated that you were regarded by the police as a man under police custody; how do you know that?
A Because that was written on my card index which I received in Dachau, which was written on the PSV. It is in Germany polizeilich sicherheitsverwahrter, and then under police custody.
Q And before your arrest in the year 1940 were you never punished?
A Yes.
Q Perhaps you will tell the Tribunal why you were punished and what punishment you received and when it was? Under oath, I remind you, under oath.
A In the year 1934 I was punished and under this punishment I was arrested, and was then sent to the concentration camp.
Q In 1934?
A In 1934, yes.
Q Are you sure you said the right thing, 1934?
A Yes, 1934.
Q And how long did you remain in the camp?
A No,-- I was sentenced in 1934.
Q Why, I am asking you?
A In 1934 I was sentenced to 3 years prison because of falsification of documents and because of treason.
Q 6 years?
A Yes, 6 years prison.
Q Up to 1940?
A Yes, up to 1940.
Q And after this sentence you were sent to a concentration camp?
A I was to be pardoned and released, and I was told that-
The INTERPRETER: Will you speak a little slower, and make some pauses, so the translator can catch up.
A (continued answer) After serving my sentence I was released, but shortly before my release was again arrested by the police and sent over to Berlin and there it was said that I had to receive some lessons, educational lessons in Berlin, and then in the Police Headquarters at Berlin I had one interrogation, and then I was told "you are going to be released now". At the occasion of this interrogation my personal datas were established and I heard nothing further until one day I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q Witness,--Witness, in the sentence, on the strenght of which you were convicted to 6 years, did you at that time say you were merely under police security?
A Yes.
Q Was that a so-called protective custody?
A Since it had often occurred that people who were released from the prison were sent to a concentration camp. A little while before my release from the prison I went to the Chief Prosecutor in Berlin and asked him what my situation was. He then wrote me saying that one my sentence was served, I think it was the 3d of May, 1940, I would be released and everything would be over and done with.
Q I am sure that was not what was written in that letter.
A Yes, I received that letter.
Q I am sure that was not the contents of the letter. Witness, I am an experienced lowyer, and I know that some such a thing could not have been in that letter?
A This was the contents of the letter.
The Interpreter: Speak a little slower. Speak just as slow as you spoke when the prosecutor was examining.
MR.HARDY: I object to defense counsel stating his opinion as to what was in the letter. The question is to the witness as to what was in the letter, and not the defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may proceed.
Q Witness, were these 6 years of prison the only sentence you received before being sentenced to the concentration camp, or did you before 1934 receive any other sentence?
A I cannot remember that at the moment.
Q So you cannot remember. In that case I should like you to refresh your memory. You are here under oath.
A I cannot remember at the moment to what extent I was sentenced before 1934 to any punishment. I can only say at the occasion of this sentence in 1934 I was not put under protective custody and in 1940 I was to be released, to be released from the prison.
Q And what was the date of your sentence?
A May 1934
Q And what was the name of the Court?
A It was in Berlin.
Q What kind of a Court?
A I was sentenced by a special court. That was in May 1934.
Q And what if the files were brought here and you would find a number of other sentence which had been imposed on you?
A Well, you could tell me that once you had the files, but at the moment I cannot remember. I can say that under oath.
Q Witness, with reference to your testimony today you have been interrogated before, haven't you?
A I was interrogated once before.
Q When was that?
AA few days ago.
Q A few days ago, did you say the very same thing at the time, the very same thing as today?
A I believe I said the very same thing.
A In that case you had a very good memory with reference to the things you testified today?
A In 1940 I was in a very sick state, and was sent from the concentrantion camp Neuengamme to Dachau, so that I can only remember the previous time if you refresh my memory.-
Q No; you have to do that yourself, on the basis of your oath, and I think I am telling you that for the third time.
A You cannot force me to make any statements if I cannot remember.
Q During the experiments,--with reference to the experiments you witnessed in Dachau, had you seen a physician, Dr. Ruff, from the Luftwaffe?
A That I cannot say. I saw many physicians come from the Luftwaffe. My recollection isn't strong enough to mention any names.
Q How about a physician, Dr. Blome?
A I can only remember these names I have mentioned here, only.
DR.SAUTER: In that case I have no further questions. Thank you.
DR. VORWERK: Dr. Vorwerk, counsel for Romberg.
BY DR. VORWERK:
Q Witness, what kind of experiments in the concentration camp of Dachau were, according to your knowledge, the first ones to be carried through?
A In February 1942 the malaria experiments started, and at the same time the high altitude experiments of the Luftwaffe.
Q You used the expression "exhibition patients" what do you mean by that?
A I mean the very first chosen patients who participated, who were used in the high altitude experiments. They lived in a specially selected room and they were well nourished. They received cigarettes. They were always presented, and were once introduced to Himmler at the occasion of his visit, and Himmler made big premises to them in case they survived, and told them they would be released, and so on. And, in addition to these 10 patients a large number-
Q I was only asking you about those 10 patients. Did you got into contact with these 10 patients, did you speak to them?
A I visited them on several occasions.
Q Was there a possibility for the other camp inmates to get into contact with these 10 inmates?
A Not for the other inmates, but for such persons who were working in the hospital.
Q So these 10 people told you about Himmler's visit; do you know these 10 people were actually out to participate in experiments?
A Yes, they were.
Q But then you probably spoke to these persons about the experiments?
A Yes. Shall I tell you something about that?
Q Yes, if you will.
A These people told me,--these people told me that they went into this high altitude chamber with a so-called protective installation. That they were placed under observation under 10, 120 13 and 14 thousand meters, that they were very exhausted, but as far as I remember they all survived.
Q Did you speak to them about the persons who were conducting the experiments?
A No, as far as I know Dr. Rascher himself was the one who conducted them.
Q Do you know whether anyone besides Dr. Rascher participated?
A I saw how during the first few weeks, during the high altitude experiments, a number of officers of the Luftwaffe, or at any rate they were in Luftwaffe uniform were present there.
Q You probably don't remember the names?
A No, I don't
Q Would you recognize these persons if you did see them, today?
A I hardly think so. It was too long time ago.
Q Would you try to recognize someone in the defendants dock?
A I tried that before, but it is impossible.
Q You said that these 10 people were "exhibition patients;" beyond that you said that other experimental subjects were used in the low pressure chambers, but do you know anything positive about who experimented upon those persons?
A Yes, Dr. Rascher.
Q Except these 10 experimental subjects, did you discuss these experiments with them?
Q No, I cannot remember.
Q Didn't you speak to anyone who saw you; didn't you speak to anyone except these 10 people?
A I spoke to a number of the 10 people that I met.
Q But other than that you didn't speak with anyone?
A No.
Q Then how do you know there were other experimental subjects in addition to the 10 people you mentioned?
A Because on various occasions I saw that patients were lead to this station.
Q How do you come to that conclusion? How could you conclude that these patients were used for these high altitude experiments? Did you actually see them led into the chamber?
A No, I only arrived at that conclusion because at that period of time no other experiments were carried on.
Q If I understood you correctly you did not observe that other experimental subjects were used in this chamber in addition to these ten people?
A No, I did not see that.
Q And nobody told you about it?
A Yes, on repeated occasions I was told about it.
Q Where you also told who the one was that was carrying on these Experiments? I am speaking of the others, not of the ten people.
A Yes, the very same Dr. Rascher who had these ten patients.
Q Do you know whether, in addition to Dr. Rascher, there was anyone else who participated in these experiments?
A I have already said as far as I remember there were two physicians of the Luftwaffe who were active there.
Q I should like to ask you to differentiate exactly between the Experiments with the so-called exhibition patients, to use your words, and the experimental subjects, who did not belong to these exhibition patients, and I now am speaking about these persons who were not such exhibition patients. Who was the one who carried on these experiments?
A They were conducted by Dr. Rascher. I can only rely upon hearsay because I neither saw the experiments on the ten persons nor on the others. I only heard about this since we discussed the matter in the hospital.
Q You heard about it? Then, if I understood you correctly, all the ten persons, after the conclusion of these experiments, were still living?
AAs far as I remember, yes.
Q How often were you sentenced by a court in your life?
A That I cannot tell you exactly
Q How often approximately?
A In 1934 I was sentenced.
Q You have already told that to the High Tribunal. I now ask you ho often you were sentenced?
A I was sentenced to six years in prison.
Q I am now asking you whether you want to answer my question or not?
A Yes, I have now answered your question.
Q So you are still saying that you do not remember how often you were sentenced by a court?
A I cannot remember what happened before 1934.
DR. VORWERK: Thank you.
DR. PELCKMANN: Dr. Pelckmann counsel for Defendant Schaefer.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Witness, you said that in the year of 1934 you were not sentenced to protective custody?
A No.
Q Was a protective custody applied for by the Prosecutor at that time?
A No, there was no talk about protective custody at all.
Q You have said before that a special court sentenced you; is that correct?
A Yes, a special fast court sentenced me. I was arrested. About ten days later I came into the courtroom and was then sentenced to six years prison. Rather, I was first sentenced to four years and then to six years.
Q According to our practice of law there are special courts set up for political crimes, but you stated that you were sentenced because of falsifying documents and fraud?
A Yes, because of falsifying documents and because of committing fraud, I was sentenced in a special court, but then the matter was brought up again and then subsequently an ordinary court sentenced me to six years.
Q But that was not political court?
A No, it was not political court.
Q Now, witness, how does the Prosecutor who examined you previously know -- how does he know about your experiences in the concentration camp?
A Because I was interrogated about it at one time.
Q Well, how could he know that you had such experiences in the concentration camp? Didn't you tell anyone about it previously?
A I don't quite understand that.
Q At the moment you are in Bamberg in confinement, did you in Bamberg tell the police or the prosecutor who was prosecuting there, did you tell him anything about your experiences in the concentration camp?
A Yes, I talked about it.
Q And did you subsequently report to anyone because you could tell something about these cruelties? Did you report that to anyone?
A Yes, yes I reported about that. I wanted to make statements about it.
Q When was that?
A I cannot say that exactly.
Q Well, approximately when was it?
A Well, it was some time ago, a few weeks perhaps.
Q You have stated that for the first time you told the prosecutor-you spoke to the prosecutor about four days ago?
A Yes, a few days ago. I was interrogated here a few days ago.
Q And before that you gave an indication that you could tell something about cruelties committed in concentration camps; is that correct?
A Yes
Q And approximately when was that?
A That was a few weeks ago.
Q Since when, Witness, are you in confinement in Bamberg?
A Ever since the 14th of June.
Q In that case I can assume that your report that you knew something about cruelties was only made at the time you were in confinement?
A Yes, but I have spoken about that a long time before, that, but I only officially reported that I knew something about these cruelties, only since I was in confinement.
Q You were in confinement since June; not before that?
A No.
Q Did you read newspapers before that, and did you listen to the radio?
A Yes.
Q Did you know that here in the trial and on the part of the prosecution such cruelties were discussed and brought into the courtroom?
A Yes.
Q There was the International Military Tribunal here that discussed these cruelties?
A Yes.
Q And at that time you were a free man?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't put yourself at their disposal?
A Yes, I was continuously available at the courtroom in Dachau. I transferred all the material of the Dachau Malaria Station which I could salvage and put it at the disposal of the court in Dachau.
Q But you said that you only made a report regarding your knowledge a few weeks ago?
A Yes, in this matter, because I now read that there was a trial against SS physicians and so on, and this is why I put myself at your disposal in order to testify.
Q And when you were still a free man who was it that you gave this material to and when?
A That was a year ago in Dachau.
Q And whom did you report to?
A Well., these were the investigation authorities in the Dachau Concentration Camp. These was an American Lieutenant Bauer or Lieutenant Cont, and at that time I gave them that material.
Q Were you treated as a political inmate in the camp or as a criminal inmate?
A Well, the treatment -- well, how do you mean that?
Q Well, did you have a green triangle or a red triangle?
A I had a green triangle.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, I should like to ask some more technical questions to the witness tomorrow so that I could have some more opportunity to study the document book.