"Written in December 1941. Signed, Dr. T. Lang."
This concludes the presentation of Document Book No. 15. The Prosecution will call now the witness Dr. Schmidt.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the Defendant Hoven): Gawlik for the defendant Hoven. Hr. President, Exhibit Document NO 907 was presented as Exhibit 412 on page 39 of the German Document Book, Volume 16, and it dealt allegedly with letters from Dr. Menecke. This morning I received a photo copy of the document. I have not been able to obtain the original document. I saw from this that not the original letters were presented, but only typed conies of these letters. I do not consider this permissible to be presented as evidence as long as the original letters of Dr. Menecke are not presented. I therefore request that Document NO 907 be crossed out from the record.
MR. MC HANEY: The document to which defense counsel has reference is on page 45 of the English Document Book. The facts are these: the letters of Menecke were apparently found in his home or some other place by German authorities. Excerpts were taken from those letters and used in the trial against him in Frankfurt. We obtained the excerpts only from the authorities in Frankfurt. However, Menecke is now in Nuernberg and he was shown these excerpts and he has certified that they are true and correct excerpts from letters which he wrote. The originals are not available to us. I submit that the certification of Menecke himself makes this document admissible.
JUDGE SIEBRING: Is Menecke to be called as a witness, Mr. McHaney?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, he is, Your Honor.
JUDGE SIEBRING: Defense counsel then will have opportunity to examine Menecke with respect to these letters if he so chooses.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. president, it is my opinion that the Prosecution then should Question the witness about the contents of these letters; that, however, it is not permissible to present this document as long as we do not have the original letters.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will reserve its ruling until after the proposed witness Menecke has testified. Mr. McHaney, did I understand that the exhibit offered as 427, Document 1556 PS, was introduced in evidence before the International Tribunal?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, that is correct, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The copy of the English Document Book contains no certificate whatever showing anything of the sort. Does the original document have attached to it the proper certificate?
MR. HC HANEY: The original document has -
THE PRESIDENT: I mean the original exhibit offered before this Tribunal.
MR. HC HANEY: Yes, it has the certificate of Fred Niebergall stating it was offered in evidence before the IMT as Republic of France Exhibit 350, I believe. I am sorry, Your Honor, I misunderstood you. You have reference to 1556 PS. I was speaking of 1553 pS, the Gerstein -- I do not know whether the one we have there does show that it came from the records of the IMT.
THE PRESIDENT: It has a certificate. It bears a certificate with a stamped signature. You should have the certificate properly signed. There was nothing in the English Document Book indicating that it had ever been shown to the International Military Tribunal.
MR. HC HANEY: That is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand the Prosecution now desires to call Witness Eugen Schmidt. ,
MR. McHANEY: That is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the Witness, Walter Eugen Schmidt.
WALTER EUGEN SCHMIDT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. The Witness will rise, hold up her right hand, and be sworn. Repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the bath.)
THE PRESIDENT: Be seated , please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
DR MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, your name is Walter Eugene Schmidt?
A. My name is Walter Eugen Schmidt.
Q. Are you a German citizen?
A. I am German, Yes.
Q. You were born on 9 June 1911 Wiesbaden, Germany?
A. I was born on 9 June 1911 at Wiesbaden.
Q. Are you the same alter Schmidt who was recently tried for a crime in Frankfurt before a German Tribunal?
A. Yes. I am the same Dr. Schmidt who was sentenced to life imprisonment at Frankfurt for performing Euthanasia on children.
Q. Are were tried for the crime of murder, Witness?
A. Yes. I was tried for murder.
Q. What is the status of your case now?
A. I have been called here as a witness, at this time. I have not made an appeal up to now.
Q. Witness, will you tell us, briefly, something about your personal history?
A. In 1939, I joined the Waffen-SS. There I reached the grade of assistant physician and Sturmfuehrer. In 1941, an order from the Reich Chancellery reached me. It was sent to my Troop Commander. I was to report to the Reich Chancellery.
Q. Witness, may I interrupt you a moment? Before we come to those matters, I would like to ask you, whether you have been educated as a doctor of medicine?
A. I started at the Frankfurt University. I studied medicine there. I have taken my state examination, I took it there. I also passed my doctor's examination with distinction.
Q. When did you pass your doctor's examination?
A. I passed that in 1937 at the University Clinic.
Q. Where have you practised medicine since 1937?
A. In Frankfurt at the University Clinic as voluntary assistant. Then in - February of 1939, I was sent to the institution at Eichberg as assistant physician.
Q. Has Eichberg an insane asylum?
A. Eichberg was an institution for the insane and the imbeciles owned by the state. Afterwards, it was also a sanatarium with a department for little children and later on it was turned into an SS field hospital.
Q. Witness, you stated that you joined the Waffen SS in 1939?
A. Yes, I was conscripted into the Waffen SS as a member of the NSSP unit.
Q. How long were you on duty with the Waffen SS?
A. I remained with the Waffen SS until 1941.
Q. What month of 1941?
A. Until March or April. Then I was called back. Then I was discharged from the Waffen SS in September 1941.
Q. What happened in March or April 1941? Has that the date on which you were called to Berlin?
A. I did not understand the question. Will you repeat it please?
Q. What happened in March or April, 1941? as that the date on which you were called to Berlin?
A. I was called to Berlin in March; 1941, yes.
Q. By when were you called to Berlin?
A. By order of ay- civilian office. It was sent by way of the Adjutant of the Wehrmacht.
Q. What did you do in Berlin. Why were you sent there?
A. I was to report there to see a Doctor Blankenburg. However, this nan was absent, so first of all I went home to my.
institute. From there I was sent with my chief to Berlin to the Reich Chancellery.
Q. You state that you were ordered to report to a Dr. Blankenburg in Berlin.
A. No. This time it was a meeting. It was a meeting in the Reich Chancellery in which about 50 or 60 chief physicians and directors of the German insane institutions participated. Furthermore, representatives from the Reich Chancellery, Ministry of Interior, and Ministry of Justice were also present. I was told that.
Q. When did this conference or meeting take place, Witness?
A. I assume that this must have been in the early summer.
Q. Early summer of 1941, is that correct?
A. Of 1941, yes.
Q. Was the meeting held in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer in Berlin?
A. It was held in the Fuehrer's Chancellery in Berlin.
Q. And can you tell us some of the names of the people who attended this meeting?
A. Yes. I can remember that professor Nietsche was there and Professor Heyde, Professor Schneider, Dr. Heffelmann, and Dr. von Hegener. The following men came with me to Berlin, they were directors: Dr. Pfannmueller, Dr. Falkenhauser, Dr. Schneider, Dr. Schiesse, and Dr. Menneke. The district counsel for Wiesbaden, Bernotat was there. These are tile people who were there that I know for certain.
Q. Row many people would say attended this meeting?
A. I assume about 50 or 60.
Q. At that time, were you Deputy to Dr. Menneke at the Eichberg Asylum
A. At that time, Dr. Menneke was the Director at Eichberg. At that time, I was still the assistant physician. It was only about half a year later that I became senior physician. I remained that until the end, when in 1944, I was appointed Deputy Chief physician. Then I went back into the field again until 1945.
Q. Did I understand that you were recalled from the Waffen-SS to take this job as an assistant to Dr. Menneke at Eichberg?
A. No. I did not know anything about that. I only received a letter from Dr. Menneke, that he intended to have me called "indispensable." At that time I wrote him I preferred to remain with my unit. However, one day the order reached me. It was a telegram. "Where is Dr. Schmidt"? In accordance with this, my Troop Commander immediately sent me on my way. He sent no home.
Q. Who was chairman of this Meeting in Berlin in the summer of 1941?
A. Who was the Director of the Conference? The Conference was introduced by a gentleman I do not remember anymore today. No. I cannot recall his name at all. It was then continued by Heyde, I believe, and afterward by Dr, Heffelmann. It was more or less an open Conference.
Q. Who was Dr. Heyde?
A. As far as I know, ha was the University Professor from Wuerzburg.
Q. Who was Dr. Heffelmann?
A. Dr. Heffelmann was a juristic representative of the Reich Chancelle at least that is what I considered him to be.
Q. What was done at this meeting?
A. It was a meeting about the Euthanasia question, and execution of these measures in the German Asylums on insane people.
Q. Well, was any explanation given of the Euthanasia program at this meeting?
A. I have not quite understood. Will you repeat the question, please?
Q. Well, was any explanation given of the Euthanasia program?
A. Yes, a law of the Fuehrer was read to us, Furthermore, further decrees wore read, decrees which were to be the legal basis for the execution of the Measures. Then this question was also discussed.
Q. Do you remember the content of this decree or law as you call it? What did it say?
Q. Do you remember what was the contents of this Fuehrer's Decree or law, as you called it. What did it say?
A. It was for the incurable, and those people who were severely sick that should be given final medical aid, and. it also stated who were and were not empowered in the decree. The decree will show it bore the address of Professor Brandt.
Q. Will you state about this Fuehrer's Decree, whether it was directed to Professors Brandt and Bouhler?
A. Yes. I have recently seen this Decree, and it bore the address of Professors Brandt and Bouhler. However, I believe that there still had been another decree which did not bear any address at all.
Q. Now, witness, I do not want you to testify to anything that you have been shown recently. I asked you if you remembered the contents of the Decree which was read in this meeting?
A. Yes, the contents stated that they ere to be empowered to give them a final medical aid of euthanasia on incurable inmates or patients.
Q. Do you remember?
A. I am quite sure I can remember that.
Q. Do you remember whether that Decree was directed to Bouhler and Brandt?
A. I cannot state it with certainty. That is only what I have seen recently.
Q. Was an explanation given how the euthanasia program was operated?
A. Yes. I remember it this way; that intermediary stations wore to be establishes in individual institutions, and that from there the patients were to be sent to the euthanasia institutions.
Q. Well, did they explain that questionnaires were to be filled out on paper.
A. This action had already been completed at this period of time.
Q. What action do you refer to - what action is that, witness.
A. I refer to these intermediary stations. They told me of that institution where the patients had already been moved. However, then other patient were to arrive there from our institutions who were then sent from our institutions to the euthanasia institution.
Q. Do I understand that Eichberg was to be made a collecting station for insane persons?
A. Yes, that is what it was.
Q. And that then these insane persons were to be sent from Eichberg to the extermination station?
A. Yes, they were to be sent from us to these institutions.
Q. And on what basis was it to be determined that this or that patient should be sent from Eichberg to the extermination station at that time?
A. These stations had already been treated on questionnaires, and by diagnosis the Reichsarbeitsge-Weinschaft, the Reich Labor Corporation, had already been examined.
Q. You mean to say, that the questionnaires had been filled out on these patients before they arrived at Eichberg?
A. Yes, the questionnaires has already been completed, and diagnosis had already been made before they came to Eichberg. In a certain way it was an intermediary station.
Q. Witness, I shall ask you to pause after the question has been put to you before you answer, do you understand that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I take it from what you have said that you know how the euthanasia program operated prior to the time that the patients arrived at Eichberg. Can you tell us what was done with respect to an insane person before the patient was sent to Eichberg?
A It was done this way. The directors of the individual asylums had to fill in questionnaires, and these questionnaires were then submitted to Berlin. Then special experts gave a diagnosis, and they had to make a diagnosis of these questionnaires, They then had to decide whether the individual was to be sent to the 'euthanasia station to an institute like Muenster, Gastein, and Eicheiborn, and so on, or, then whether to send these patients who had been described as positive to an euthanasia station. Part of these people were sent to Vietstein near Muenster, Eichberg, or Scheuern, and from there they were to be sent to Hadamar. That is just about as much as I know about our vicinity.
Q Hadamar was actually a place where patients were killed, is that correct?
A Yes, Hadamar was the euthanasia institution.
Q That was the euthanasia institution in your area?
A Yes, that was the euthanasia institution for our district until August 1941.
Q And that was the district surrounding the Weisbaden area?
A Yes, everything was sent there from even other districts. I don't know what was the basis for this procedure.
Q Have you ever heard of the Institution Grafeneck?
A No, I had not heard of it. I only knew at that time Hadamar.
Q I am not asking you what you knew at that time. I am asking you now if you heard during the time that you were active in the euthanasia program of Grafeneck?
A The name came to my attention afterwards. However, I have never visited the institute.
Q Well, did you hear that Grafeneck was also an extermination institute like Hadamar?
A Yes.
Q Did you hear of the same thing about Brandenburg?
A No, I don't know that name.
Q Or Hartheimer?
A Yes.
Q Or Sonnenstein?
A Yes.
Q Or Bernburg?
A Yes.
Q Or Berneck?
A Yes, also.
Q What other extermination institutes do you know that existed?
A Otherwise, I don't know. Others came to my attention in the cours of time there.
Q All right, witness. You said that the asylum filled out questionnaires on patients which were sent to Berlin, is that right?
A Yes, questionnaires were sent to Berlin.
Q To whom were they sent in Berlin?
A I can not say that. I have never sent any there.
Q Have you ever heard of it?
A My chief the then Director Dr. Menneke was in charge of having them sent there.
Q Have you over heard of the Reich Association Hospital and Nursing Establishment?
A You mean the Reich Corporation for Nursing and Convalescent Establishment?
Q I mean the Reichsarbeitsgemeinschaft fuer Pflege und Heilanstalten?
A They were asylums for Hadamar, yes, and also the Gemeinnuetzige, and the Gemeinnuetzige Transport G.M.B.H.; also the Reich Company for Scientific Research; also a department for amalgamation and hereditary diseases.
Q I thought you probably hoard about those. Now, tell us what they were?
A So far as I know they were the executing agencies.
Q They were the agencies in charge of the euthanasia program?
A Yes. When I attended the conference of the Party in the Chancellery I also asked who was in charge of this assignment, and Dr. Hegener told me it was Professor Brandt; that he had the medical direction, and I also continued on this concept.
Q Was anything said about the connection of Viktor Brack, then?
AAbout the connection, yes, it was stated that he was the medical director.
Q Now, you are speaking of Viktor Brack, or Karl Brandt?
A I am speaking about Professor Brandt.
Q I now put the question to you whether you knew that Viktor Brack was connected with the euthanasia program?
A Yes. Later on the name of Viktor Brack was mentioned frequently, and Mr. Hegener told me about it, and also told me at a later period of tin during a conference that Brandt was not the director any more, but that Brack was in charge all by himself.
Q When was that?
A It must have been in 1944.
Q Was von Hegener a subordinate of Viktor Brack?
A It was Hegener subordinated to Viktor Brack. I only know this from Hegener when I had a discussion with Hegener about the subject.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 1:30.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1340 hours, 16 January 1947) WALTER EUGEN SCHMIDT - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) By Mr. McHANEY:
Q Witness, let's go back for a moment to the meeting which you state was held in the summer of 1941 in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer. Do you mean by the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, Beuhler's office? Witness, you stated that in the summer of 1941, a meeting was held in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you mean by Chancellery of the Fuehrer, the office of Bouhler?
A I understand it was Beuhler's department, yes.
Q Were you asked to take any oath binding you to secrecy at this meeting
A Yes, secrecy was demanded from us and we signed the document in fact stating that.
Q And what was to be the penalty if you did not maintain secrecy?
A Regarding the punishment itself, nothing was said, but I experienced it in the institute of mine that one of my male orderlies was sent to a concentration camp.
Q Now what other explanation was given about the operation of the Euthanasia Program at this meeting? How was it explained to you?
A It was said that, generally speaking, it was a general task of the state which was secret, and I went on to ask why this task should be secret, whether the law in fact was a secret law; and I was told that with respect to the patients who weren't supposed to find cut and also considering the situation of the war, they would have to be secret.
Q. Now, witness, you have testified you were familiar with the names Reichsarbetsgemeinschaft and the charitable foundation for institutional care of patients, the so-called stiftung, and the patient transport corporation.
A. Yes.
Q. I will ask you if those were simply code names under which the Euthanasia program was carried out.
A. Yes, they were camouflage; the way I understood it at the time was that it was the executive departments which were concerned, the department of ministry, of the Interior, and the Reich Chancellery that is to say.
Q. And is the same thing true of the Reich Committee for research of heredity and constitutional diseases?
A. Yes, that applies to that too.
Q. has this Reich Committee for research of heredity and constitutional diseases concerned with the Euthanasia program as applied to children?
A. Yes. I had such a task from the Reich Committee.
Q. And the three other organizations were concerned with what?
A. From the Reich Committee certain diseases were dealt with, crippled and deformed children, and T. B. and serious tumors of the brain.
Q. Now, turning from this Reich Committee back to the Reich Association, who are hospital nursing establishments, charitable institutions for the care of patients, and patient transient corporation, were these organizations concerned with the Euthanasia applied to adults?
A. Yes. These were the organizations which carried out Euthanasia on grown-ups.
Q. You have mentioned the names of Prof. Hagener and Prof. Nietsche; do you knew whether or not they were so-called top experts in the Euthanasia program as applied to adults?
A. As far as I know, the Euthanasia program was applicable to grown-ups and they were experts.
Q. Hagener and Nietsche were experts; is that right?
A. Yes. They were the chief experts in fact whom I know.
Q. Now, then, let's confine ourselves for the moment to the Euthanasia as applied to grown-ups.
Were questionnaires filled cut on patients in insane asylums all over Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know where these questionnaires come from?
A. The questionnaires were sent to the institute through the Interior Department.
Q. Would that be through the Ministry of the Interior and Dr. Linden?
A. Yes, I assume so; at any rate in our institute there were a number of these questionnaires which were already there.
Q. And after these questionnaires had been completed, where were they sent?
A. They were sent to Berlin; they went to Hadamar; that was done by the director and you would have to ask him. I don't know at the moment where they were sent exactly.
Q. Dell now, witness, you were active in this program; you surely have some general understanding of how it operated; isn't that true?
A. Yes, This is how it was. In this institute busses would arrive which were directed under the so-called transport community for patients, and at the same time rows of patients would arrive, and these patients amounting to an average of 90 to 100 per transport, and a transport consisting of three busses; these patients were then dealt with; they were taken to the busses and remover; and it was not said where the patients were being taken, but the knowledge had become common that they went to Hadamar.
Q. Went to Hadamar, you said?
A. Yes, I said Hadamar.
Q. Now witness, let's turn for a moment to the Reich Committee for Research and hereditary and constitutional diseases. Dill you explain briefly just how that program operated? Were questionnaires filled out there on the children?
A. New, we didn't do that. The questionnaires were filled cut by the Health departments and the chief of the children's clinic, and then on the basis of a decree from the Ministry of the Interior reports were made to Berlin.
From Berlin there was a committee of doctors, that is to say chief experts, medical officers, and they would then decide according to the merits cf the case on Euthanasia and they would then issue authorizations. We called them authorizations -- these authorizations were photostatic copies of the reports, and then there was an accompanying letter which would be sent to the individual children's department or the corresponding committees in the Reich
Q. Well now, witness, we want to make the operation cf this children's program perfectly clear. Wasn't it required of doctors, midwives and other people who were present at the birth of a deformed child -
A. Yes, that was also demanded.
Q. Witness, I will ask you to wait until I complete my question and then give your answer. Didn't these physicians, doctors, mid-wives, at the hospital have to make a report when deformed children were born to Dr. Linden's office in Berlin?
A. Yes, that was the situation. These mid-wives, doctors and health authorities did have to make a report about such serious deformities or some serious brain disease to Berlin, and then on the strength cf these reports, the Reich Committee would decree Euthanasia through so-called authorizing orders.
Q. And these authorizing orders took the form of a photostatic cony of the report on which had boon written approved?
A. Yes. The word treatment was considered by the Reich Committee to be --to mean -- Euthanasia.
Q. And those photostatic copies came to you in Eichberg?
A. Some cf these photstatic copies did reach us, and all different children's departments.
Q. Now, witness, I want to put to you Document NO 253, which has been admitted before this Tribunal as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 331, and I want you to study it for a. moment and I will then put a question to you.
DR. ROBERT SERVATIUS: If the Tribunal please, I object to the presentation of this document to the witness. The document has not yet been the subject of cross-examination, and I deny quite definitely its correctness.
It might mislead this witness and I, therefore, request that it should not be admitted. First cf all, there would have to be a cross-examination on it.
MR. McHANEYL If the Tribunal please -
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is over-ruled; counsel may proceed.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q. Witness, this document which you are now looking at purports to be a chart of the or organization of the Euthanasia program as it operated in Germany. I will ask you, based upon your knowledge and activity in the Euthanasia, if chat chart presents an accurate and correct picture of Euthanasia and its organization.
THE PRESIDENT: I would suggest, Mr. McHaney, that you ascertain from him if he is familiar with reading charts and if he understands the meaning.
BY. MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, I will ask you if you understand that chart that is before you.
A. Yes I do. I understand the chart. I personally do recognize the organization cf the Reich Committee connected to Dr. Linden; and then there a. connecting line to superior Dr. Karl Brandt; and I know the connection to Bauhler. Brack, Blankenburg and Hegener is known to me. They were working together with Heyde and Nietsche. They in turn had to collaborate with the Reich working committee of the clinic and sanatoriums. Then there is the Stiftung of these institutions; then there is the transport company for patients; and those are the organizations which I know. The name of filers is known to me, and has been connected to these organizations; he was playing a leading role. Then I recognize the names of the exports -- Pfannmueller and Falthauser. And then regarding the observation institutes I know nothing. From the Euthanasia institutes I know the names of Grafeneck, Brandenburg, Sonnenstein in Hadamar and Bernau are known to me.
Q. Witness, are you able to follow on the chart the flow of questionnaire from the office of Allers, over to the office of Dr. Linden, and from there down to the general institutions, the insane asylums?
A. To follow the channel of those questionnaires on the basis of the euthanasia program as it is put before me hero is something I cannot do
Q. Do you find the office of Allers on the chart?
A. Yes, I've got that.
Q. Do you see right under the office of Allers a department for questionnaires?
A. Yes, yes, I can recognize that.
Q. And to you see the arrow running from this Department of Questionnaires over to the department of Lindon?
A. Yes.
Q. And as you see the arrow running from the office of Lindon down to the insane asylums?
A. Yes, I can see that too.
Q. And do you see the line running from the insane asylums to the observation stations, with the word "patients, indicating that these questionnaires were filled out on the patients?
A. Yes, I can recognize that.
Q. And do you follow that the questionnaires went back from the observation station to the office of Linden and then wore sent from Linden over to the office of Allers, where the top experts, Heyde and Nietsche, expertized the questionnaires?
A. Yes.
Q. I will ask you if that is not the way that the euthanasia program operated.
A. The possibility exists, out I am not accurately informed about that
Q. Witness, weren't you working with Dr. Mennecke in Eichberg?
A. I worked with Dr. Mennecke in Eichberg.
A. And don't you know for a fact that Dr Mennecke sent these questionnaires to the office of Linden and that they wore then expertized by Heyde and Nietsche?
A. Yes, I know that f or certain.
Q. Well, then, why do you state that you are not accurately informed? You were working with the man who was doing just that, weren't you?
A. Yes, but the intermediary departments I did not know.
Q. Which intermediary department did you not know?
A. The individual departments on the channel. I only knew that Dr. Mennecke sent these questionnaires to Berlin, and then during my work with Mennecke I learned that he had connections with Dr. Linden, whom he visited quite often, and with Dr. Nietsche, too, and with Dr. Heyde as well, and he also collaborated with Aller, but just how they worked together amongst themselves I never knew.
Q. Well, witness, can you state whether or not the questionnaires were sent by Mennecke to Linden's office?
A. He did send them to Linden's office, yes.
Q. Can't you also state that Heyde and Nietsche expertized those questionnaires as the top experts?
A. That I know, yes.
Q. But what you do not know is the channel or the offices?
A. What I did not -
Q. Witness, I will ask you to repeat that, I don't think the translation came through.
A. I know that Dr. Mennecke sent the questionnaires to Dr. Linden in Berlin -- to Linden's office, that is, and I also know that there the questionnaires were dealt with by Nietsche and Heyde in their capacity as chief experts. I do not know, however, what the channel of procedure and the official relation was between Allers and Heyde. I know for certain, however, they they did collaborate.
Q. All right, witness, that seeps to be clear enough. I will now ask you whether or not the order to move the patient from the asylum to Hadamar or one of the other euthanasia extermination stations did not come from either the Reich Association or the Stiftung or the Patients' Transportation Corporation.
A. That order cane from one of these Stiftungen, the working community or the Stiftung and was carried out by the Transportation Corporation for Patients, yes.
Q. How, witness, can you state that this chart is an accurate presentation, an accurate picture of the organization of the euthanasia program, with the exception which you have made; that is, that you do not know the subordinate offices connecting Linden with the experts?
A. Yes.
Q. With that qualification, you are clear that the chart is accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please hand the chart to the clerk beside you? Now, witness, you have given us a picture of how the euthanasia, program operated as it applied to grown-ups and children. I want you now to toll us what went on in Eichberg.
A. Beginning in 1940 the transports loft Eichberg for Hadamar, transports of such patients as the communal Stiftung or the Association had selected. They had previously been dealt with by experts, and the corresponding order came from the ministry of the Interior, and the Transportation Corporation carried it out.
These transports continued until approximately 1941, the spring or probably the early summer. Then the patients from other institutes were first of all to go through us as intermediary station and then also to the euthanasia institute at Hadamar. Whilst this particular program was being started up, Hadamar stopped work. That is to say, we were overcrowded considerably, and it was not quite clear whether another euthanasia station was being considered. That was not the case, however. It stopped. Apart from this particular action there was only the Reich Committee station at Eichberg. There was a special department for children at Eichberg, for the killing of deformed and imbecilic children.
One understood "deformed" to mean deformed brains of a serious degree and complete idiocy. They were given the death of mercy in our institute.