A Yes. I would have had to initial it if I had seen it. about right now. Instead, I wait you to listen while I read on excerpt from it. If you would like to see the document you can have it, but I hardly think it is necessary. referred to, isn't it? Do you remember? Do you remember that Posse said:
"It was pointed out that the General Plenipotentiary for the Economy is primarily interested to introduce into the legislation for war finance, the idea of financing war expenditures by anticipating future revenues, to be expected after the war."
Q All right. That is all I have to ask about that document. We can move right along here. you to tell the Tribunal that in so far as the war against Poland was concerned, you didn't really know until some time in August that there was even a likelihood of war with Poland; some time in August you thought it would be settled by diplomatic means. Isn't that so?
A In probability not. Danger of war had wxisted, was dormant, for months, but that war was immediately ahead could be assumed in August. with Poland for more than a year before the attack on Poland? You can answer that yes or no.
A I don't know that.
Q You mean you don't Know whether you did or not? What do you mean by that kind of an answer? Don't you remember?
A I don't remember.
Q All right. Then I can help you. You must remember it; it is USA Exhibit 551. That is a speech that you made. Don't you remember saying in there that you had been planning in secret for well over a year for the war on Poland?
Do you remember that? Would you like to see the document?
Q The sentence is here:
"Although all the economic and financial departments were harnessed in the tasks and work of the Four-Year Plan, under the leadership of the General Field Marshal Goering, the war economic preparation of Germany has also been advanced in secret."
Do you remember that?
Q You will notice it says here "for well over a year", and you went on to say this had been done under you.
Is that true? Civilian Economy. That I explained.
Q All right. Well, that is all right. I just wanted to get your -
A (Interposing) But of Poland I did not speak. It was October 1939. some extent, weren't you? Was the Goering door one of those that you were also trying to get in?
You can answer that very simply. You told us you were trying to get in those various doors, but you would get up there and never get in. I now ask you if the Goering door was one of those.
A I don't believe that I was so ambitious or that I wanted to get Goering's post. That was far from me.
Q I didn't say that you wanted to get his post, but you wanted to get some of his authority, didn't you? Or don't you remember? Maybe that is the solution.
the Prosecution and the document is No. 3894-PS. He was asked these questions:
"Question: What was the nature of the conflict between the Plenipotentiary for Economy and the Four-Year Plan?
"Answer: The struggle for power.
"Question: The struggle for power between Funk and Goering?
"Answer: The struggle for power between Funk and Goering, between Funk and the Ministry for Agriculture and the ministry for Communications.
"Question: How was the struggle finally resolved?
"Answer: Never. It was a struggle always continuing under the surface."
Then we move on:
"Question: Did Funk, who had very important powers as Minister of Economics and later as Reichsbank President and as Chief Plenipotentiary for the Economy, actually exercise these powers?
"Answer: Yes. But the powers of Goering were stronger.
"Question: Nevertheless, Funk did exercise important powers?
"Answer: Yes, as President of the Reichsbank, Minister of Economics, and Plenipotentiary for Economy."
Posse was your chief deputy, wasn't he? my deputies were Landfreid and Puhl as far as the Reichsbank was concerned.
Q You don't think he really knew what he was talking about when he said you were in the struggle for power? Is that your answer?
MR. DODD: That becomes USA Exhibit 843. We haven't offered it up to now. BY MR. DODD:
Q Now, Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about when you first heard of the impending attack on Russia.
I understood you to tell the Tribunal that you heard about it sometime -- I think you said -- in May. Is that right? Or June?
Q Well, that is what we want to know. When Rosenberg, in April of 1941, was appointed, you knew then there was to be an attack on Russia, didn't you? But this morning I don't think you made that statement. Isn't that right, Mr. Funk? told that the Fuehrer considered a war with Russia to be likely.
Q Yes, but you know what you told the Tribunal this morning. You said that Lammers sent you notice of Rosenberg's appointment because of your interest in improving the trade relations with Russia. That is the answer you made this morning. Now, that wasn't so, was it?
Q I don't care what Lammers said. I am asking you now if it isn't a fact that you were told by Lammers because you were to cooperate with Rosenberg in making ready for the occupation of those territories after the attack began. Now you can answer that very simply. Isn't that true?
Q Now, we'll see. You know, on another occasion you have given another answer, by the way, I might say parenthetically. Do you remember telling the interrogator that you first heard from Hess about the impending attack on Russia? Do you remember you gave that answer at one time as the source of your first knowledge? Do you remember telling us that?
Q I'll tell you about that in a minute. We will stay now on this Rosenberg business.
There is a document No. 1031-PS and it is dated May 28, 1941, which would be a little more than a month after the Rosenberg appointment, "Top Secret Notes; Meeting with Reichsminister Funk." Do you know what you were talking about that day, about counterfeiting money for use in Russia and the Ukraine and the Caucasus?
Do you remember it. You don't remember it? Well, you had better take a look at the document. It is No. 1031-PS, which becomes USA Exhibit 844.
Don't you remember the day that your Reichsbank Director Wilhelm said it shouldn't appear that you were counterfeiting so-called ruble bills for use in the occupied countries?
Rosenberg was at that meeting. It is a very short memorandum. Have you read it? Oh, it is on page four, I think of the document you have; I am sorry. Do you find it? It starts out "In the Ukraine and in the Caucasus, however, it would become necessary to maintain the present currency, the ruble" -- and so on. You were talking about money problems in the territory that you expected to occupy, and that was, well, about a month before the attack and about a month after the Rosenberg appointment, was it not?
Can you not give me an answer? questions. attack on the countries that had to be conquered, did you not?
A I did not know of an attack. I only know of a danger that a war would start.
Q Well, all right, you have it your way. The important thing was that you were talking about using money in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus, and it happened about a month later.
Q All right. There are quite a few questions I want to ask. I would like to close this examination before the adjournment time is due. Do you have anything you want to say to that? I only offered to show that you had knowledge about the impending attack. You know that something was going to happen in the East. That is all I wanted to ask. I think you will agree with that, won't you? this morning -- I knew that a war with Russia was threatened.
Q We are all in agreement. We do not need to go further. I understood you to say this morning that you did not know. That is all right. I misunderstood you then. I now understand you to say that you did know it.
expecting a war with Russia, but I am not clear about this document, as to who has written it.
Q Well, I do not know either. I can simply tell you that it was captured, among other documents, from Rosenberg's files. I cannot tell you anything more about it. I do not think there is any need to go on with it. kassenscheine and with the exchange rate, there were various objections. It shows that I was very careful about it.
Q All right. I am glad to have your observations about it. I want to talk to you a little bit about when you took over the Reichsbank. Posse was your principal deputy in your Ministry of Economics, was he not? talking about.
Who was your principal assistant in the Reichsbank?
Q He was a holdover from the Schacht days, was he not?
Q Did you induce him to remain? Did you ask him to remain?
Q You said that you selected your personnel. That is what you told the Tribunal this morning.
Q I am not interested in going through your roster of personnel. I am only asking -- and I will tell you the purpose. Puhl was a reliable banking man, was he not? He was well known in international banking circles. He had been, offered a position in the Chase Bank in New York at one time, did you know that?
Q It is true. In any event,he was quite a man, and he is a reliable man, is he not?
Q You asked for him as a witness, did you not?
Q And you wanted him to come here because you believe him? How much gold did you have on hand at the end of the year 1941? Roughly. Don't give me a long story about it. I am not too much interested. I am trying to find out if you were short on gold in 1941. That was when I got the post of Schacht. gold. another purpose in mind.
From whence did you obtain gold after you took over? Where did you getyou get any new reserves from? after I had assumed the position, the gold reserve of the Czech National Bank. There must have been some gold, and then mainly through the Belgian gold.
Q All right. Now, of course, gold became very important to you as a matter of payment in foreign exchange. You had to pay off in gold alone in 1942 and 1943, did you not? Is that so? introduced gold embargoes. Sweden refused to accept gold. Only in Switzerland could we still do business by transfer of gold. exchange in 1942 and 1943. When did you start to do business with the SS, Mr. Funk?
A Business with the SS? I have never done that.
Q Are you sure about that? I want you to take this very seriously. It is about the end of your examination, and it is very important to you. I ask you again when did you start to do business with the SS?
A I have never done business with the SS. I can only say the same that I said in the previous interrogation: That is that one day Puhl informed me that a deposit had been received from the SS. First, I assumed that it was a regular deposit, that is, a deposit which would remain locked and which would not hinder us further, but then Puhl told me later that deposits of the SS should be used by the Reichsbank, and I assumed that there were gold coins or currency, but in the main, gold coins, which every other German citizen had had to turn in, and so I thought they were taken from inmates of concentration camps and turned over to the Reichsbank. There were also valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps that did not go to the Reichsbank but to the Reich Finance Minister.
Q Just a minute. Were you in the habit of having gold teeth deposited in the Reichsbank?
Q But you did have it from the SS, did you not?
Q You don't know.
MR. DODD: Well, now, if Your Honor please, we have a very brief film, and I think we can show it before we adjourn, and I would like to show it to the witness before I examine him further on the gold business in the Reichsbank. It is a picture taken by the Allied Forces when they entered the Reichsbank, and it willshow gold teeth and bridges and so forth in their vaults. I can do it in the time; I do want to complete this this afternoon -- I want to read you an affidavit from this man Puhl, whom you told me a few minutes ago was a creditable and well informed man and whom you called as a witness. This affidavit is dated 5 May 1946.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I protest against the reading of this affidavit by Mr. Puhl. This affidavit most probably--I do not know--was taken here in Nurnberg. We do not know its contents. The Prosecution surprises us today with an affidavit of which we know nothing, and within ten minutes a dozen documents are thrown at us of which the Prosecution asserts they are only short documents, whereas, for instance, one affidavit among them contains twelve pages. It is quite impossible for us in the course of this extreme speed with which this examination has taken place to follow these statements and those documents at all. Therefore, I have to protest against the use of an affidavit of that kind at this moment.
HR. DODD: Well, this affidavit was taken at Baden-Baden, Germany, on 3 May. We have been trying for a long time to put this part of this case together, and we have finally succeeded. Certainly, we did not turn it over to Dr. Sauter because we wanted to use it for just the purpose I am trying to put it to now. It is an affidavit of his assistant Puhl, whom he called as a witness and from whom he expects to have an interrogatory. It has to do with a very important part of his case.
I might say that if we are permitted to use it, certainly Dr. Sauter will have a chance to re-examine and he will have all night to study it if he would like to look it over.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you wanting to cross-examine the witness about this document?
MR. DODD: Yes, I want to read it to him and ask him a couple of questions about it. It is the basic for two or three questions of crossexamination, to impeach him for statements he has already made about the gold.
THE PRESIDENT: You may do that. But Dr. Sauter, of course, will be able, if he wishes to do so, to apply afterwards that the witness should be produced for cross examination. And he would have time in which he can consider the affadivit and make any comments which he wants to about it.
MR. DODD: Very well, Your Honor.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I make just one statement? Today the case occurred where the prosecution has protested against the fact that a document should be used which the prosecution had not received before in English. And the representative of the prosecution tells me it is not German. Therefore, the document has to be translated. I am of the opinion that the defendant's counsel should get the same right in this respect. my having the slightest what they include, then I cannot answer them. The difficulty becomes greater and greater. For instance, I have received a document here which contains 12 pages. One sentence is used out of such a document. The defendant is not given time to read even one single paragraph. I myself am not given time. And in spite of that fact, it is expected that the defendant should be asked about one single sentence which is taken out of the context immediately without having the possibility of examining the document. That, in my opinion, cannot be expected.
THE PRESIDENT: You have had a translation in German of nearly every document, if not every document. You have also been given every opportunity to consider documents when they have been translated into German. And that opportunity will be given to you hereafter. now which are not in German, they will be translated into German, and you will have them then. But once the witness is under cross examination, the documents may be used. in German, you will be able to do so.
MR. SAUTER: Mr. President, the defendant's counsel also has an interest not to delay the proceedings. But it does not help me if later, if ten days or two weeks from now I shall have to approach you, Mr. President, with the request that I could question the witness again. We are happy once we are through with the examination of the witness.
But this fashion in which Mr. Dodd does it, we cannot follow; I cannot follow, and the defendant cannot, either. One cannot expect the defendant to answer a single sentence which has been taken out of the context, and to make a statement about it, if he has no chance to examine the document as a whole.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd.
MR. DODD: May I proceed to examine on the document?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, have you got any objection to his seeing the document?
MR. DODD: Yes, I have. I think it would be a new rule. Ever since this defense opened, we have presented documents for the purpose of impeaching the credibility of various witnesses, and used these documents. And it goes to the very foundation of cross examination. If we have to turn such documents over to the defense, before we cross examine, the whole purpose of cross examination is defeated.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, if you are putting the document in and putting it to the witness as a document, then his counsel is entitled, I should purport, to have it at the same moment.
MR. DODD: We are perfectly willing to give him a G erman copy right now. It is here for him. And we were ready with it when we came in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: In German?
MR. DODD: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the best thing will be for us to adjourn now, and then you will hand to Dr. Sauter when you use the document a translation of it in German.
MR. DODDS: Yes; tomorrow morning, when we use it.
THE PRESIDENT: When you use it.
MR. DODDS: Very well, sir.
Military Tribunal in the matter of: The BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Witness, you had a converende with Dr. Sauter last night after we recessed court, did you, for about an hour? gold deposits in the Reichsbank, and I had asked you when you started to do business with the SS and, as I recall, you said you didn't do any business with the SS. And then we went along a little further and you did say that the SS did deposit some materials, some property belonging to people in concentration camps. Do I properly understand your testimony to have been, in substance, as I have stated it?
A No. I said that Mr. Puhl -- I don't remember in what year -told me one day that the SS had delivered a gold deposit and he also told me -- and he said it somewhat ironically -- it would be best that we don't try to ascertain what this deposit is. As I said it yesterday, it was impossible to ascertain what is deposited because when somebody deposited something the Reichsbank had no right to look into it to see of what it consisted. Only later, when Mr. Puhl made another report to me, I began to realize that when he used the word "deposit" it was a wrong term; it was not a deposit but it was a delivery of gold. That is a great difference. And I personally assumed, since they are always speaking about a gold deposit, that this gold consisted of gold coins or other foreign currency or possibly small bars of gold or something similar which had been brought in from the inmates of the concentration camps just like everybody in Germany had to deliver these things and that the Reichsbank was given this gold to use it.
Since you mentioned this matter I remember another fact of which I was not conscious until now. However, I have been asked about it in my interrogation and during this interrogation I could not say yes to it because at that time I did not remember this fact. I was asked during my interrogation whether I had the agreement of the Fuehrer of the Reich that the gold which was delivered to the Reichsbank could be utilized by the Reichsbank. I said I don't remember this. However, if Mr. Puhl makes such a statement under oath, I can disagree with it. However, it is a matter of fact that if gold is delivered which belongs to the Reichsbank that then the Reichsbank has the right to utilize such gold. I never spoke at most more than twice or three times about this fact to Mr. Puhl, of these -- what these deposits or these deliveries consisted and what was done with these deliveries, how they were utilized I don't know. Mr. Puhl never informed me about that.
Q Well now, let's see. You were not ordinarily in the habit in the Reichsbank of accepting jewels, eye glasses, spectacles, watches, cigarette cases, pearls, diamonds or gold dentures, were you, accepting that sort of material for deposit in your bank?
A No; but that is entirely impossible, in my opinion, that the bank had a right to do that, because these things were supposed to be delivered at an entirely different place. If I am correctly informed about the legal position, it was supposed to be delivered to the Ministry of the Interior. Diamonds, jewels and ornaments were not the concern of the Reichsbank because we were not authorized to sell this kind of stuff.
A If that has happened then the Reichsbank did that illegally. The Reichsbank was not authorized to do that. anything about it?
Q You did not?
Q You were frequently in the vaults of the Reichsbank, weren't you? You were frequently in the vaults of the bank yourself?
Q I will come to the gold bars in a minute. I just want to establish that you were in the vaults frequently and your answer, as I understand it, is yes, that you were? particularly foreign visitors, to show there the rooms where the gold was kept and we usually showed them the gold bars. The usual gag that was spoke, whether you could lift a gold bar or not. But anything other than gold bars I have never seen in my place.
Q How heavy were these gold bars that you had in the vaults?
commerce between banks. I think they vary in weight. I think the gold bars had a weight of about 20 kilograms. Of course, you can figure it out.
Q That is an answer. When you were in the vaults you never saw any of these materials that I mentioned a few minutes ago -- jewels, cigarette cases, watches and all that business?
A No, never. I have been in these vaults at the most four or five times, and only to show them to visitors, because it was a spectable.
Q Only four or five times from 1941 to 1945?
A I assume so. It wasn't more often, I only went down there with visitors, particularly foreign visitors. bank you never made an inspection, so to speak, of the vaults, never took a look at the collateral? Didn't you never make an inspection before you made your certifications as to what was on hand? Certainly every responsible banker does that regularly, doesn't he? What is your answer?
A No, never. The business of the Reichsbank is not conducted by the President. That is conducted by the Directorate. I never bothered with individual transactions, even gold transactions. I never bothered with the disposition of small gold shipments. If there were large shipments of gold arriving the Directorate reported to me, because the Directorate conducts the business, and I believe these detailed transactions are known only to the individual director of that particular department.
Q Now, did you ever do any business with pawnshops?
A With pawnshops. Do you know what a pawnshop is? There must be a German word for that.
SOME VOICE: Pfandleihe.
Q You know what they are, don't you?
A Where you pawn something?
Right now, since you don't seem to recall that you ever had any such materials as I have described, I ask that we have an opportunity to show you a film which was taken of some materials in your vaults when the Allied Forces arrived there.
(To the President) I would ask, Mr. President, that the Defendant be permitted to come down, where he can watch the film, so that his memory will be properly refreshed.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may have him brought down.
(The Defendant Funk was brought down to a seat near his Counsel, Dr. Sauter. The film was shown, after which the Defendant Funk resumed his regular seat in the witness-box.)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, at some stage, I take it you will offer evidence as to where the film was taken, how it was made, by whom.
MR. DODD: Yes, I will. There will be an affidavit as to the circumstances under which the film was made, who was present, and why; but for the information of the Tribunal at the moment, it was taken in Frankfurt when the Allied Forces captured that city and went into the Reichsbank vaults.
BY MR. DODD:
Q Now, Mr. Witness, having seen these pictures of materials that were found in your Reichsbank vaults a year ago, or a little earlier than a year ago at this time, you now recall that you did have such material on hand over a period of a little more than three years?
A I have never seen anything of this sort. I also have the impression that a large part of these things which were shown in the picture came from deposits, because these people, thousands of them, had locked deposits which they delivered to the Reichsbank, in which they wanted to hide their jewels and their other treasures before they had to deliver them; for instance, such as foreign money, gold coins. They deposited this with us. We had thousands of closed deposits into which the Reichsbank was not authorized to look. cannot imagine where these things came from, to whom they belong, and to what use they were put. hear of anybody's depositing his gold dentures in a bank for safe-keeping.
A (No response) plates, did you not, and the other dental wrk? Certainly nobody ever deposited that with a bank. Is that a fact? Where these teeth came from I do not know. They were not reported to me. I do not know what was done with those teeth. I am convinced that items of this sort, when they were delivered to the Reichsbank, were to be turned over to the Office for Valuable Metal, because the Reichsbank did not deal with goldwork for this reason: We were not authorized to use this metal. I do not believe the Reichsbank had the technical facilities to go to work on this metal. deposited eyeglass rims, did they, such as you saw in the picture?
A That is right. These things are not regular deposits. That is a matter of course.