Q Now, I want to turn to something else for a moment. I want to make myself perfectly clear to you.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I should like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the document which has just been presented, and which refers to confiscated property and real estate, has the heading "Aryanization Department for Real Estate, Nurnberg". That can't mean anything except that this document, which comes from the official department, was later on used for the confiscation of that real estate. It is that sort of document but by no means can this be a document that can prove that we are here concerned with the real estate aryanized by Holz subsequent to the 9th of November.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I accept that that may be so.
DR. MARX: I should like to ask, therefore, that this correction may be made in this connection. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If I was mistaken in saying that those properties had been aryanized, I would be right, then, would I not, in saying that that list of properties was prepared by the Aryanization Department in Nurnberg for the purpose of aryanizing them in the future? Would that be a fair statement to make?
Q I won't pursue that any further.
I want to make myself quite clear to you in what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that from 1939 onwards, you set out to incite the German people to murder and to accept the fact of the murder of the Jewish race. Do you understand that?
A That isn't true.
Q No doubt you will say it isn't true. I just wanted you to be quite clear on what my suggestion is going to be. from the Stuermer. You can see the originals which are in court if you desire to do so, but it will save time if we use the document books there.
Now, will you look at page 3-A. For convenience, the pages in this bundle are all marked "A" to distinguish them from the numbers in the original document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they all in evidence?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: They are none of them in evidence at the moment. Perhaps the most convenient way would be for me to put the actual documents in evidence together at the end, unless the Tribunal or the defendant desire to see any copies of them. I will give them numbers as I go along. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q Will you look at page 3-A of that bundle, D-809, which Becomes GB-331:
"The Jewish problem is not yet solved, nor will it be solved when one day the last Jew will have left Germany. Only then, when world Jewry has been annihilated, will it have been solved." international solution to this problem, the annihilation of world Jewry?
A If that is how you understand "annihilation". That was written by my chief editor at the time. He says, "The problem is not yet solved nor will it be solved when one day the last Jew will have left Germany." And when he says that only then when world Jewry has been annihilated will it be solved, then he probably meant that the power of the Jew should be annihilated. He was thinking of the power; he wasn't thinking of annihilating the men. My fellow Party member Holz didn't think of it either.
Q The German word used there is "vernichtet", is it not? Look at your copy. "Vernichtet" -- that means to annihilate. at that time.
Q We won't waste time because we have got quite a number to look through. Will you look on to the next page. That was in January you were writing that. In April 1939, D-810, GB-332, I refer only to the last two lines. This is an article again by your editor:
"Then perhaps their graves will proclaim that this people of murderers and criminals has, after all, met its deserved fate."
What do you mean by "graves" there? Do you mean excluding them from the business of the world?
A This is the first time that I have seen this article. That is the statement of opinion of a man who was probably locking ahead and making plays on words, but as far as Heimer, and as far as we discussed the Jewish problem, there was no question of our discussing mass extermination; we didn't think of it.
May be it was his wish, I don't know, but anyway, that is the way it was written.
Q Very well. Just turn over, will you now, to May 1939, D-811, GB-333. I quote the last six lines:
"A punitive expedition must come against the Jews in Russia."
"A punitive expedition must come against the Jews in Russia, a punitive expedition which will provide the same fate for them that every murderer and criminal must expect, death sentence and execution. The Jews in Russia must be killed. They must be exterminated root and branch. Then the world will see that the end of the Jews is also the end of Bolshevism."
A Who wrote that article?
Q It is published in your Stuermer. We can find out, if necessary. It is not written by you, but it is published in your Stuermer, and you have told the Tribunal that you accept responsibility for everything that was written in that newspaper. state that in this, too, is a question of the private opinion of a man who in May 1939 could not have though that from nothing, because we had no soldiers, a March to Russia could be started. That is very strongly worded opinion of that anti-Semitic person.
Q All I ask you about that is: Is that not advocating the murder of Jews, that article, and if it is not, what is it advocating? I could decide what motives existed for writing something like that. I therefore ask you to give the public the whole article. Then you can make up a proper judgment.
Q Well, we'll go on. We won't waste time unless you really want to see the whole article.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, if I perhaps might be allowed to put these documents in evidence. As your Lordship will see, this bundle is a bundle of extracts from the Stuermer.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to make the following statement: A number of extracts from the Stuermer have been mentioned here.
This is the first time that they have been put before me. Some of them are articles which haven't been written by the defendant personally. Some are by Hiemer ; some originate from Holz, who was particularly radical in his way of expressing himself, and passages are being quoted which are probably taken out of the proper context. of reading and discussing these extracts, and investigating them together with the defendant Streicher. Otherwise, he might come to the conslusion that his defense is being made too difficult for him, and that it is being made impossible for him to prepare himself appropriately.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, you will no doubt have an opportunity. You will have an opportunity of checking -
DR. MARX: I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: I have already said that I wished counsel, when they make objections, would put on the earphones so that I can mate myself heard. various extracts, and you will be able to introduce, if necessary, any passages which explain the extracts. That is a matter which has been explained to defendants' counsel over and over again. extracts which are written or signed by the defendant?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, with your Lordship's permission. I will refer to some of them, but so that I should not have to red to all of them, I was going to suggest that perhaps I might put them in and, if it is necessary, let the Tribunal know afterwards the numbers of them to save time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I put the whole bundle in evidence and will not refer to all of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you can give us the exhibit numbers later.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If that is suitable to the convenience of the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: bundle, from the first page which I think is 3-A, to page 25-A, are various extracts which have been written either by yourself or by members of your staff between January 1939 and January 1941. evidence, that you never knew that Jews were being exterminated in thousands and millions in the eastern territories? Did you never know that?
Q As I understood your evidence about the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" this morning you said this, as I have written it down:
"Sometime that journal contained hints that everything was not in order. Late in 1943 on article appeared in which it was said masses of Jews were disappearing but the article did not quote any figures and did not mention anything about murder."
Are you really saying that those copies of the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt", which you and your editors were reading, contained nothing but a hint of disappearance with no mention of figures or murder? Is that what you are telling this Tribunal? of you. It is a bundle of extracts from the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" from July 1941 until the end of the war. The Tribunal will be able to see what a fanatic for the truth really tells.
(Witnesshanded document)
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, this bundle for convenience again is marked "B". BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q Will you look at the first page. That is an article on the 11 of July, 1941.
"Some 40,000 Jews died in Poland during the last year. The hospitals are overfull."
How, you need not turn over for the moment, defendant. We will turn the pages soon enough.
Did you happen to read that sentence in the issue of the 11 of July, 1941?
Q Will you look at page 3, 3 "B"? In November, 1941:
"Very bad news comes from the Ukraine. Thousands of Jewish dead are being mourned, amongst whom are many of the Galician Jews who were expelled from Hungary."
Did you read that?
A That might be. It says "thousands", thousands are being mou rned. That is no proof that millions were killed.
A There is no detail stated. There are no details how they came to their end.
Just go on again. We will look at the next page, the 12 of December, 1941, a month later:
"According to news which has arrived from several sources thousands of Jews, people even speak of many thousands, have been executed in Odessa and so on. Similar news reaches us from Kiev and other Russian cities."
Did you read that? That is no evidence. except for hints of disappearance. Doesn't it show that you were not telling the truth when you read these extracts?
A In that case may I say the following. When the war started we did not receive the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" anymore. During the later years one could only get the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" through the police or through black market channels. We get that paper into Germany toward the end and on one occasion we asked the police to receive foreign newspapers and this weekly and it was stated that was not possible but we nevertheless got it. read were confiscated from my farm and everything that is underlined has been read by me or it was read by my editor-in-chief. I cannot, therefore, guarantee that I read every single thing in that paper. course of three years.
I would just like you to turn to page 30 "A" of the "A" bundle. I just want you to see what you were writing after these copies of the "Israelitische Wochenblatt" had been published. This is a leading article by yourself.
"If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way, the extermination of that people whose father is the devil."
And is the word that you use for extermination there "ausrottung", rooting out extirpation? counsel, the one you have translated there and is the translation correct?
Q It does not matter. He has copies of all this and he will be able to protec your interests. We are now just testing the truth of the evidence you have given.
Can you tell me, is that extermination? Does that mean murder of Jews? What else can it mean?
A It depends on the connection. In thay case I want you to read the whole article. to you, your counsel will have an opportunity ti see the article and be able to put it before the Tribunal. I can assure you that the remainder of your articles, as a general rule, do not assist your case. ago.
Q Very well. Well now, we will not go through this at any length.
If you will look at your "B" bundle, your bundle of extracts from the "Isreali tisches Wochenblatt"-
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should draw his attention to the date on page 30 " LT,-COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
My Lord, I am Very much obliged to your Lordship. The 25th of December, 1941. BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q If you will glance at "B" bundle you will see a number of extracts from page 21. Now, I would like you to glance at page 24 of that bundle.
A Page 24?
Q Yes, page 24. This is an article which appeared in the "Israelitisches Woche blatt" on the 27th of November, 1942. I just wondered whether you read this.
"At the Zionist Agency in Geneva gave a report on the position of European Jewry. The number of victims goes into millions. If the present conditions continue and the German program is carried out it is to be reckoned with that instead of six or seven million Jews in Europe only two million will still be left."
Then there are the three last lines of the extract:
"The Jews who were there had mostly been deported to the notorious unknown destination further to the east. At the end of this winter the number of victims will be four million."
Is that what you call a hint of disappearance of Jews from the East?
I do want to say that if I had read it I would not have believed it.
Q Well, now, let us just turn to the "A" bundle again and look at the article that you wrote on the 17 of December, 1942. It is on page 34 "A". This is an article which is initialed "STR" so I presume it was written by you.
"The London newspaper, the "Times" of the 16 of September 1942 published a
Q Page 34 "A".
Q It is headed:
"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a toogh."
"The London newspaper, the "Times" of the 16 of September 1942 published a resolution which had been unanimously passed by the Board of Deputies of British Jews. This resolution expresses the grief and horror of the Angle-Jewish community at the unspeakable atrocities committed by Germany and her allies, an vassals against the Jews of Europe, atrocities which had only one aim, to exter minate the whole Jewish population of Europe in cold blood."
Now, you must have read of that in the "Times" because you say so.
Q "Strange how the Jews of the Angle-Jewish community suddenly begin to hear clearly. When the second World War began the Fuehrer of the German nation warned the Jewish war mongers against plunging the world into a blood bath again and since then the German Fuehrer has warned and prophesized again and again that the second World War, instigated by world Jewry, must necessarily, lead to the destruction of Jewry. In the last speech too, the Fuehrer again referred to his prophesy."
Did you write that?
A Yes, this is merely a quotation. It refers to a forecast from the Fueh rer, of which nobody could possibly tell what it really meant.
If you had not even read that or the "Isrealitisches Wochenblatt", did you ever hear of the declaration of the United Nations which was made on the 17th of December. 1942?
(witness handed document) Do you remember hearing of that?
You appear to have been reading the "Times you appear to have been reading some copies of the "Isrealitisches Wochenblatt." Maybe you heard of this declaration which was published in London, Washington and Moscow at the same time with the assent and support of all allied nations and dominions. I will just read it to you and see if you remember it.
"The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovakian, Luxemburg, Netherland, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom, United States and Yugoslav governments and also the French National Committee, has been drawn to numerous reports of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barberous rule has been extended the most elementry human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler's oft repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.
"From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the Ghettos established by the German invaders are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation, or are deliberately massacred in mass executions.
"The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.
"The above-mentioned governments and the French National Committee condemn, in the strongest possible terms, this bestial policy of cold blooded extermination. They declare that such events can only strengthen the resolve of all freedom-loving peoples to overthrow the barbarous Hitlerite tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn resolution to ensure that those responsible for the crimes shall not escape retribution, and to press on with the necessary practical measures to this end."
Did you ever hear of this declaration?
A I don't know, but if I should have heard of it, why then I would have to say the following. many cruel stories which turned out to be rumors, that I had no reason to believe anything like this; nor was there any talk about it here, that millions of Jews were killed.
Q Well, you see, it isn't altogether uncorrobotated. You say you had no reason to believe it, but your Israelitische Wochenblatt, which you were subscribing to, was saying exactly the same thing.
Would you look at page 26-b of the B bundle? That is the declaration of the United Nations on the 17th of December. Just see what the Israelitische Wochenblatt says on the 18th.
And there I quote the second paragraph:
"At that time the Polish Government in London gave the number of Jews executed as 700,000. The Berlin radio declared that these reports were untrue, but admitted that in Poland Jews had had to be executed because they carried out acts of sabotage."
Then the last paragraph quoted:
"'Up to the end of September 1942', writes the Daily Telegraph, 'two million Jews have lost their lives in Germany and in the countries occupied by the Axis, and it is to be feared that the number of victims will be doubled by the end of this year.' " Did you happen to read that article?
A I can't remember having read it, but I would not have believed it if I had. on the 23rd of December, in the same terms; another on the 20th of December; and another on the 8th of January. Look at what it says on the 8th of January:
"The Polish Government in London has meanwhile issued a new declaration which states that all the information received agrees that a third of the three million odd Jews have lost their lives."
Did you read that?
A I don't know, but I have to repeat, I would not have believed it.
Q Well now, let's see just what you were writing on the 28th of January. Look at 35-a of your own bundle; 35-a. Now just see what your Chief Editor, the witness you are going to call, I understand, Hiemer--see what he has got to say first of all:
"But the Ghetto too, which has today been reestablished in nearly all European countries, is only an interim solution, for humanity, once awakened, will hot merely solve the Ghetto question but the Jewish question in its totality. A time will come when the present demands of the Jews will be fulfilled.
The Ghetto will have disappeared, and with it, Jewry."
What is he referring to, if he isn't referring to the mass killing, murder, of the Jewish race? That conviction must be understood the same way as something which a Jewish author wrote in his book in America. Erich Kauffmann wrote, "German people capable of having children should be sterilized, and in that manner the German people should be exterminated." It was at the same time that Hiemer wrote that article, and I want to say that the very severe tone is due to that book from America. repeatedly pointed out--and so does my defense counsel--that I wanted that book to be found. It was in the Voelkischer Beobachte can publicly write that all men in Germany capable of having children should be sterilized, to exterminate the German people, then I say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. This is a theoretical matter.
Q Very well. I am sure we have heard your explanation. Let's see what you have to say about your own article on the same date. I quote from the middle of the next paragraph:
"But now in the fourth year of this war world Jewry is beginning, in its retrospective reflections, to understand that the destiny of Jewry is finding its fulfillment at the hands of German National Socialism."
What did you mean by that? Perhaps I should have quoted a little earlier, going back to the beginning:
"When, with the outbreak of the Second World War, world Jewry again began to manifest themselves as war mongers, Adolf Hitler announced to the world that the World War conjured up by world Jewry would result in the self-destruction of Jewry. This prophecy was the first big warning.
It was met with derision from the Jews, as were all the subsequent warnings."
And then you go on to say:
"But now in the fourth year of this war world Jewry is beginning to understand that the destiny of Jewry is finding its fulfillment at the hands of National Socialism."
What did you mean by that?
A What?
Q What do you mean by saying "World Jewry is finding its fulfilment at the hands of National Socialism?" How did you mean that National Socialism was finding the fulfilment of Jewry's destiny? the solution, since the Fuehrer intervened with their destiny. That wasn't a solution. the entire solution, which was, right from the beginning against even the thought of trying to solve the Jewish problem by means of programs. If I mentioned destiny, and that the fate of Jewry was to be fulfilled by National Socialism, then I wanted to say that only through National Socialism would the world get the knowledge and the realization that the Jewish problem must be solved internationally.
Q Let's just go on.
"That which the Fuehrer of the German people announced to the world as a prophecy at the beginning of this Second World War is now being fulfilled with unrelenting inevitability. World Jewry, which wanted to make big international business out of the blood of the warring nations, is rushing with gigantic steps towards its exturpation."
And again you use the word "Ausrottung." were aiming at was warning the world about Jewry? What do you mean by it? "Rushing with gigantic steps towards its exturpation--Ausrottung?" What did you me an by it?
A This is a warning. The Fuehrer made a prophecy; nobody could interpret that prophecy properly. The prophecy wasn't to revert to only this article, but to ten others. Again and again we referred to these prophecies, the first of which came in 1929. Today we know what the Fuehrer wanted to say; at that time we didn't. And I confess quite openly that with this quotation we wanted to warn world Jewry. author, Dr. Emil Ludwig Kohn, who had left Germany and emigrated to France, had written in the paper Le Sanale, in 1934, "Hitler does not want war, but be is being forced into it.
If Britain has the last word,"-
Q We are not discussing war now. We are discussing the extermination, the mass murder, of Jews by the National Socialists. That is what we are discussing. Let me read on:
"When Adolf Hitler stepped before the German people 20 years ago to submit to them the National Socialist demands which pointed into the future, he also made the promise which was to have the greatest effect in its result, that of freeing the world from its Jewish tormentors. How wonderful it is to know that this great man and leader is making action follow this promise also. It will be the greatest ever to take place amongst mankind." the policy of mass extermination which the Nazi Government had set out to do? Every order could be forecast which later on might turn out to be a fact, and we could write about it, which is what I did.
A But for my defense, Mr. Prosecutor, I want to be allowed to say that war too can be mass murder, with bombing attacks, and all that And if it is proved that someon says we forced Hitler into war, then I can certainly say that a man who knows that Hitler is being forced into war is a mass murderer. you again because we are not discussing whether or not Hitler was forced into war. We will leave that now. saying that while you were writing these articles you were not perfectly well aware of what was happening in the Eastern Territories.
We got as far as January 1943. I would like you to just look at one ro two of the Isrealitisch Wochenblatt and see if you remember reading any of these.
Will you look at Page 30-b the 26th of February, in your B bundle ?
"Exchange reports from Polish Government circles in London that Warsaw, Lvov, Lodz and other cities have been liquidated, and that nobody from the ghettos remains alive. The latest investigations have ascertained that only about 650,000 Jews remain out of 2,800,000."
Listen to me. Did you read that? Do you remember it?
A I don't know. For months -- I should say six months -- we didn't get the paper. But if I had read it, I would not have believed that either.
Q Did you believe Hitler? If you will turn over the page to 30-b, did you believe Hitler? According to the last two lines quoted in the Israelitische Wochenblatt of the 5th of March:
"Hitler, in his proclamation of the 24th of February, again proclaimed the extermination of the Jews in Europe as his goal." as the Israelitische Wochenblatt, the United Nations, and the Times newspaper in London?
A No. I declare that whoever heard the Fuehrer from his deepest emotions and has soul, as I have, and who had to learn later what was contained in his testament, and that he gave, clearly conscious of the fact, the order for mass extermination, he will face a puzzle. I state here.
Q We really don't want another long speech about the Fuehrer. Just turn over the page and look at what is being said on the 26th of March:
"The report of the Polish Government published in the English press includes. "In the town of Vilna 50,000 Jews were murdered; in Rovno 14,000; in Lvov half the total Jewish population.
"Many details are also given about the use of poison gas, as at Chelm, of electricity in Belzec, of the deportations from Warsaw, the surrounding of blocks of houses, and of the attacks with machine guns."
Did you read that one?
A I don't know. However, shootings must have occured, of course, where Jews committed sabotage and all that.
That is perfectly clear. During a war that is considered as a matter of course. However, the figures which are quoted here were just simply not believable.
Q Yes. I understand you to say that now, but what I do not understand is what you meant when you said this morning that the Israelitische Wochenblatt made no mention of murders and gave no figures. You didn't say that the figures were unbelievable; you told this Tribunal, on your death, that the newspaper contained nothing except the hints of dissapearance, with no mention of figures. What did you mean by that? remember everything. During an interrogation some time back I stated, based on memory, that an edition must exist which mentions the disappearance of Jews, and so on. It is in the Israelitische Wochenblatt. And I thought, as I said, that it was in 1943; and it is true. If one article after the other is put before me -- well, even if I had seen it, how can I remember it? But that I should have told you an untruth deliberately, that is quite wrong.