Jew will deprive no joy from it? that he is in a position to enlighten people about the Jewish question.
Q And "enlightenment", is that another word for persecution? Do you mean by "enlightenment" persecution?
Q Do you mean by "enlightenment" the word " persecution"? Is that why the Jew was to have no joy from it, from your enlightenment? in Freising so much and for days without clothes that I have lost forty per cent of my hearing capacity and people are laughing when I ask. I can't help it that I was treated like that. Therefore, I ask to hear the question again.
Q I can show it to you and we'll repeat the question as loudly as you want it. Do you mean by "enlightenment" the word "persecution"? Do you hear that?
A Enlightenment? I understand and mean by "enlightenment" to tell to another person something which he does not yet know.
Q We won't go on with that. You know, do you not, that, starting with the boycott, which you led yourself in 1933, the Jews thereafter were, during the course of years, deprived of the right to vote; deprived of holding any public office; excluded from the professions; demonstrations were conducted against them in 1938; they were fined a billion marks after that; they were forced to wear a yellow star; they had their own separate seats to sit on; and they had their houses and their business taken away from them. Do you call that enlightenment?
A That has nothing to do with what I wrote. I did not give the orders.
I did not make the laws. I was not asked when laws were prepared. I had nothing to do with these laws and orders. you were going on abusing the Jews and asking for more and more orders to be passed; isn't that a fact?
29th April - M - GH - 11a - 3 responsible, you thought, for the Nurnberg decrees which you had been advocating for years before they came into force; isn't that a fact?
A The Nurnberg laws? I did not make them. I was not asked before, and I have not signed them. But I state here that these laws are that which the Jewish people have for themselves as law. It is the greatest act of legislation which at any time any modern nation has made for her own protection.
Q I don't propose to-
THE PRESIDENT: I think that is the time to break off.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Official transcript of the International
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I wonder if the Tribunal would be good enough to consider setting aside a half hour some time for the discussion of the documents of the defendant von Schirach. We are ready to clear up our outstanding points at any time that is suitable to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: played in the various actions taken against the Jews between 1933 and 1939. that you have before you, Page 22 in the document book that the Tribunal have in English. It is page 20 in the German book, M-6, which is already GB-170. Decrees. You told us this morning that you thought when they had been passed that that was already the final solution of the Jewish question. Will you look at the paragraph beginning in the center of the page "However, to these who believe"?
"However, to those who believe that the Jewish question has been finally solved and the matter thus settled for Germany by the Nuernberg Decrees, be it said that the battle continues. World Jewry itself is seeing to that anyhow, and we shall only get through this battle victoriously if every member of the German people knows that their very existence is at stake. The work of enlightenment carried on by the Party seems to me to be more than ever necessary today, when even many Party members seem to think that these matters are no longer real or urgent." solved the Jewish problem by the issuance of the Nuernberg Decrees?
was regarded by me as having to be solved, first of all, in the country and then internationally. In other words "the battle continues" means in the anti-Semitic Union and the International Union, which I had formed which had representatives from all countries on it, the place where it was discussed, what could be done internationally to terminate the Jewish problem. after 1936 was in connection with an international problem and had nothing to do with the Jews in Germany as such.
Q Let me just refer you to half way through the next paragraph:
"The 'Stuermer's' 15 years of work of enlightenment has already led an army of those who know, millions strong, to National Socialism."
Is that so? 1933, and indeed afterwards, the circulation of your paper was only very small. Is it true, in fact, that your 15 years of work had led an army, millions strong, to National Socialism? were 3,000 newspapers serving the purpose of enlightening about the Jewish problem. There were 3,000 daily papers of the size of "Der Stuermer."
Q Very well. I don't think you need go on. Let me just finish reading through that paragraph:
"The continued work of the 'Stuermer' will help to insure that every German down to the last man will, with heart and hand, join the ranks of those whose aim it is to crush the head of the serpent Pan-Judah."
Wait one moment, let me ask my question. There is nothing there about an international problem. You are addressing yourself to the German people, are you not?
A Yes. That article? Yes. If that article was read abroad, then of course I was also talking to countries abroad, but the remark about crushing the serpent's head, that is a Biblical expression.
synagogue in Nurnberg, which you have told a about, on the 10th of August of 1938. Will you look at Page 41 of the book that you have in front of you, page 42 of the English document book that the Tribunal has. Tac "Fraenkische Tageszeitung" of the 11th of August states this:
"In Nuernberg the synagogue is being demolished. Julius Streicher himself in his greatest work by speech, lasting more than an hour and a half" -- were you talking to the inhabitants of Nuernberg upon the architectural value of their city for an hour and a half on the 10th of August 1938? what you have just remarked, and what is important, or what I found important, is that there was a branch of the Propaganda Ministry in Nuernberg. The chief had press conferences with the editors every day, and at that time during the press conferences he told the editors that Streicher was speaking and that the synagogue was being demolished and that this was to be kept a secret.
architectural beauties of Nurnberg and not against the Jews? Is that what you are telling us?
A That, tool; of course, that too. seen the document; it is page 40 of the Tribunal's document book -- you remember that it was arranged that the show should be arranged in a big way, the show of pulling down the synagogue. What was the object of arranging the demonstration to demolish that synagogue in such a big way? the representative of the Ministry of Propaganda but I wouldn't object to it, if you decided to assume, to let me put it like that, that I was in the interest of making a big show if I had been asked. that in November of that year.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, I refer to page 43 of the document book; 42 of the German. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: demonstrations that took place and they took place without your knowledge or previous knowledge. Is that correct, yes or no? 10th of November. This is an account of what happened: "In Nurnberg and Furth, it described the demonstrations by the crowd against the Jewish murders. These lasted until the early hours of the morning."
I now pass to the end of that paragraph: "After midnight the excitement of the public has reached its peak and the large crowd marched to the synagogue in Nurnberg and Furth and burned those two Jewish buildings where the murder of Germans had been preached." That is what happened.
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: It is on page 44 of the document book, my Lord.
BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q "From the cradle, the Jew is not being taught like we are. Such text as 'Thou shall love your neighbor as they self' or 'If you are smitten on the left cheek offer then your right one'. No. He is told 'With the non-Jew you can do whatever you like.' He is even taught the slaughtering of a non-Jew is an act pleasing to God. For twenty years we have been writing about this in 'Der Stuermer.' For twenty years we have been preaching it throughout the world and we have made millions recognize the truth." that had taken place the night before? was appearing in a daily paper; therefore, it is a possibility that someone wrote that parts of the Nation arose against the murders and, then, that is in keeping with the order for the Propaganda Ministry in Berlin -- But to start with, that was described as a spontaneous demonstration.
Q That does not answer my question. Does that passage that I have read, sound as though you had disapproved of the demonstrations that had taken place the night before; does it or does it not?
Q Just let me read on: "But we know that we have in our midst people who take pity on the Jews, people who are not worthy of living in this town, who are not worthy to belong to the people of whom you are a proud part." Jews, if you were not --you and the Nazi Party were not persecuting them? demonstration had taken place, to define my attitude in public and say one should not have so much pity, and want to prove that this was a spontaneous action by the people; in other words, the whole thing is not against me, it is for me. The people like I, myself, were opposed to demonstrations and I found that I had cause to -- should I say -- get the public opinion to the point where one might possibly not regard that action as anything too severe. to it, should it have been your duty to try and convert them so that they should be in favor of that kind of thing?
Why were you opposed to it and why should you try to convert them against the Jew?
A I don't quite understand. therefore, it was your duty to try and stir them up and make them in favor of the demonstrations after they had happened; why should it have been your duty to do that? duty -- if you put yourself into a situation at the time -- this muddle -- and to come to a quick conclusion, as one might have to in this courtroom, that was quite impossible; what happened has happened. I was against it and the public opinion, too. What was written about it afterwards, that was done for tactical reasons.
Q Very well. Were you in favor of the aryanization of Jewish houses and businesses? Were in favor of that or did you disapprove of that issue? Partymember Holz, what my answer to that question is; I have stated it and I am repeating that -
Q. Just a moment, I don't want a speech. I asked you a question which you could answer yes or no. Did you approve or disapprove of the system of aryanization of Jewish businesses and houses?
A. You cannot answer that quickly with yes or no. I have made it clear today, and you will have to allow me, that I tell you just the same again so that there isn't any misunderstanding. My Party member Holz ---
Q. I am not going to allow you to repeat it. I will go on if you are not prepared to answer that question. The Tribunal have heard it and I pass on.
A. I want to answer it.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant -
THE WITNESS: After the Party member came --
THE PRESIDENT: You have refused to answer the question properly, a question to which you can give either an affirmative or a negative answer. Did you approve or did you not approve? You can give an answer to that and then you can give any explanation afterwards.
THE WITNESS: I was not for the aryanization. When Holz repeated that the houses had been pretty badly knocked about, that we might get finances for a Fau District building, I said "all right, if you can do it, go ahead." I already stated today, that there was negligence on his party. BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q. There were in fact a very great number of Jewish businesses and houses aryanized in Nurnberg and Franconia, were there not?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you just look at a new exhibit, D-835, which becomes GB 330. That is a list -- it is an original document -- it is a list of Jewish property in Nurnberg and Furth which was aryanized. Have you seen that list or anything like it before?
A. No.
Q. Well, you can take it from me, that that list contains the addresses of some eight hundred properties in Nurnberg and Furth which had been taken from the Jews and handed over to aryans. Would you agree that that would be at least eight hundred houses in your city here that were aryanized?
A. I don't know about it. I don't know the details, but I must make a statement. I don't know whether there is ever to be found a statement -- I have already stated today that my Party fellow member Holz started to aryanize. the state. I wouldn't have had any influence in that connection, so that this is not my affair at all. This aryanization was ordered, you see, from Berlin; the taking way, I mean, of Jewish property.
Q. Now, you mentioned this morning that you were a subscriber to a weekly newspaper called "Das Israelitische Wochenblatt"; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you start subscribing to that newspaper?
A. What did you say?
Q. On what date did you start subscribing to that newspaper?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, I have no doubt you can tell the Tribunal approximately. Have you always, since 1933, been a subscriber of that newspaper?
A. Well, I don't think I would have read every edition. I travelled a great deal.
Q. You were, as I think this application of your wife to give evidence states, a regular reader of it, were you not?
A. My editors and I used to share reading this.
Q. May I take it, that between yourself and your editors -- I don't say every copy was read, but it was regularly read from 1933 onwards; is that fair?
A. You cannot say "read regularly."
Q. A large number of the copies that you subscribed for, which came weekly to you, were they read by yourself or by your editors?
A. Certainly.
Q Now, I want to turn to something else for a moment. I want to make myself perfectly clear to you.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I should like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the document which has just been presented, and which refers to confiscated property and real estate, has the heading "Aryanization Department for Real Estate, Nurnberg". That can't mean anything except that this document, which comes from the official department, was later on used for the confiscation of that real estate. It is that sort of document but by no means can this be a document that can prove that we are here concerned with the real estate aryanized by Holz subsequent to the 9th of November.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I accept that that may be so.
DR. MARX: I should like to ask, therefore, that this correction may be made in this connection. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If I was mistaken in saying that those properties had been aryanized, I would be right, then, would I not, in saying that that list of properties was prepared by the Aryanization Department in Nurnberg for the purpose of aryanizing them in the future? Would that be a fair statement to make?
Q I won't pursue that any further.
I want to make myself quite clear to you in what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that from 1939 onwards, you set out to incite the German people to murder and to accept the fact of the murder of the Jewish race. Do you understand that?
A That isn't true.
Q No doubt you will say it isn't true. I just wanted you to be quite clear on what my suggestion is going to be. from the Stuermer. You can see the originals which are in court if you desire to do so, but it will save time if we use the document books there.
Now, will you look at page 3-A. For convenience, the pages in this bundle are all marked "A" to distinguish them from the numbers in the original document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they all in evidence?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: They are none of them in evidence at the moment. Perhaps the most convenient way would be for me to put the actual documents in evidence together at the end, unless the Tribunal or the defendant desire to see any copies of them. I will give them numbers as I go along. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q Will you look at page 3-A of that bundle, D-809, which Becomes GB-331:
"The Jewish problem is not yet solved, nor will it be solved when one day the last Jew will have left Germany. Only then, when world Jewry has been annihilated, will it have been solved." international solution to this problem, the annihilation of world Jewry?
A If that is how you understand "annihilation". That was written by my chief editor at the time. He says, "The problem is not yet solved nor will it be solved when one day the last Jew will have left Germany." And when he says that only then when world Jewry has been annihilated will it be solved, then he probably meant that the power of the Jew should be annihilated. He was thinking of the power; he wasn't thinking of annihilating the men. My fellow Party member Holz didn't think of it either.
Q The German word used there is "vernichtet", is it not? Look at your copy. "Vernichtet" -- that means to annihilate. at that time.
Q We won't waste time because we have got quite a number to look through. Will you look on to the next page. That was in January you were writing that. In April 1939, D-810, GB-332, I refer only to the last two lines. This is an article again by your editor:
"Then perhaps their graves will proclaim that this people of murderers and criminals has, after all, met its deserved fate."
What do you mean by "graves" there? Do you mean excluding them from the business of the world?
A This is the first time that I have seen this article. That is the statement of opinion of a man who was probably locking ahead and making plays on words, but as far as Heimer, and as far as we discussed the Jewish problem, there was no question of our discussing mass extermination; we didn't think of it.
May be it was his wish, I don't know, but anyway, that is the way it was written.
Q Very well. Just turn over, will you now, to May 1939, D-811, GB-333. I quote the last six lines:
"A punitive expedition must come against the Jews in Russia."
"A punitive expedition must come against the Jews in Russia, a punitive expedition which will provide the same fate for them that every murderer and criminal must expect, death sentence and execution. The Jews in Russia must be killed. They must be exterminated root and branch. Then the world will see that the end of the Jews is also the end of Bolshevism."
A Who wrote that article?
Q It is published in your Stuermer. We can find out, if necessary. It is not written by you, but it is published in your Stuermer, and you have told the Tribunal that you accept responsibility for everything that was written in that newspaper. state that in this, too, is a question of the private opinion of a man who in May 1939 could not have though that from nothing, because we had no soldiers, a March to Russia could be started. That is very strongly worded opinion of that anti-Semitic person.
Q All I ask you about that is: Is that not advocating the murder of Jews, that article, and if it is not, what is it advocating? I could decide what motives existed for writing something like that. I therefore ask you to give the public the whole article. Then you can make up a proper judgment.
Q Well, we'll go on. We won't waste time unless you really want to see the whole article.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, if I perhaps might be allowed to put these documents in evidence. As your Lordship will see, this bundle is a bundle of extracts from the Stuermer.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to make the following statement: A number of extracts from the Stuermer have been mentioned here.
This is the first time that they have been put before me. Some of them are articles which haven't been written by the defendant personally. Some are by Hiemer ; some originate from Holz, who was particularly radical in his way of expressing himself, and passages are being quoted which are probably taken out of the proper context. of reading and discussing these extracts, and investigating them together with the defendant Streicher. Otherwise, he might come to the conslusion that his defense is being made too difficult for him, and that it is being made impossible for him to prepare himself appropriately.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, you will no doubt have an opportunity. You will have an opportunity of checking -
DR. MARX: I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: I have already said that I wished counsel, when they make objections, would put on the earphones so that I can mate myself heard. various extracts, and you will be able to introduce, if necessary, any passages which explain the extracts. That is a matter which has been explained to defendants' counsel over and over again. extracts which are written or signed by the defendant?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, with your Lordship's permission. I will refer to some of them, but so that I should not have to red to all of them, I was going to suggest that perhaps I might put them in and, if it is necessary, let the Tribunal know afterwards the numbers of them to save time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: I put the whole bundle in evidence and will not refer to all of them.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you can give us the exhibit numbers later.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: If that is suitable to the convenience of the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: bundle, from the first page which I think is 3-A, to page 25-A, are various extracts which have been written either by yourself or by members of your staff between January 1939 and January 1941. evidence, that you never knew that Jews were being exterminated in thousands and millions in the eastern territories? Did you never know that?
Q As I understood your evidence about the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" this morning you said this, as I have written it down:
"Sometime that journal contained hints that everything was not in order. Late in 1943 on article appeared in which it was said masses of Jews were disappearing but the article did not quote any figures and did not mention anything about murder."
Are you really saying that those copies of the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt", which you and your editors were reading, contained nothing but a hint of disappearance with no mention of figures or murder? Is that what you are telling this Tribunal? of you. It is a bundle of extracts from the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" from July 1941 until the end of the war. The Tribunal will be able to see what a fanatic for the truth really tells.
(Witnesshanded document)
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, this bundle for convenience again is marked "B". BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q Will you look at the first page. That is an article on the 11 of July, 1941.
"Some 40,000 Jews died in Poland during the last year. The hospitals are overfull."
How, you need not turn over for the moment, defendant. We will turn the pages soon enough.
Did you happen to read that sentence in the issue of the 11 of July, 1941?
Q Will you look at page 3, 3 "B"? In November, 1941:
"Very bad news comes from the Ukraine. Thousands of Jewish dead are being mourned, amongst whom are many of the Galician Jews who were expelled from Hungary."
Did you read that?
A That might be. It says "thousands", thousands are being mou rned. That is no proof that millions were killed.
A There is no detail stated. There are no details how they came to their end.
Just go on again. We will look at the next page, the 12 of December, 1941, a month later:
"According to news which has arrived from several sources thousands of Jews, people even speak of many thousands, have been executed in Odessa and so on. Similar news reaches us from Kiev and other Russian cities."
Did you read that? That is no evidence. except for hints of disappearance. Doesn't it show that you were not telling the truth when you read these extracts?
A In that case may I say the following. When the war started we did not receive the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" anymore. During the later years one could only get the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" through the police or through black market channels. We get that paper into Germany toward the end and on one occasion we asked the police to receive foreign newspapers and this weekly and it was stated that was not possible but we nevertheless got it. read were confiscated from my farm and everything that is underlined has been read by me or it was read by my editor-in-chief. I cannot, therefore, guarantee that I read every single thing in that paper. course of three years.
I would just like you to turn to page 30 "A" of the "A" bundle. I just want you to see what you were writing after these copies of the "Israelitische Wochenblatt" had been published. This is a leading article by yourself.
"If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way, the extermination of that people whose father is the devil."
And is the word that you use for extermination there "ausrottung", rooting out extirpation? counsel, the one you have translated there and is the translation correct?
Q It does not matter. He has copies of all this and he will be able to protec your interests. We are now just testing the truth of the evidence you have given.
Can you tell me, is that extermination? Does that mean murder of Jews? What else can it mean?
A It depends on the connection. In thay case I want you to read the whole article. to you, your counsel will have an opportunity ti see the article and be able to put it before the Tribunal. I can assure you that the remainder of your articles, as a general rule, do not assist your case. ago.
Q Very well. Well now, we will not go through this at any length.
If you will look at your "B" bundle, your bundle of extracts from the "Isreali tisches Wochenblatt"-
THE PRESIDENT: I think you should draw his attention to the date on page 30 " LT,-COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
My Lord, I am Very much obliged to your Lordship. The 25th of December, 1941. BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:
Q If you will glance at "B" bundle you will see a number of extracts from page 21. Now, I would like you to glance at page 24 of that bundle.
A Page 24?
Q Yes, page 24. This is an article which appeared in the "Israelitisches Woche blatt" on the 27th of November, 1942. I just wondered whether you read this.
"At the Zionist Agency in Geneva gave a report on the position of European Jewry. The number of victims goes into millions. If the present conditions continue and the German program is carried out it is to be reckoned with that instead of six or seven million Jews in Europe only two million will still be left."
Then there are the three last lines of the extract:
"The Jews who were there had mostly been deported to the notorious unknown destination further to the east. At the end of this winter the number of victims will be four million."
Is that what you call a hint of disappearance of Jews from the East?