Q. The Prosecution have accused you that you had contributed to mass murder by causing hatred and, according to the report of the Attorner General in 1936, the following accusation has been raised against you: No Government in this world could have carried out the pass extermination as it was done without that a nation stood behind it which agreed, and that you are supposed to have brought it about. What have you got to say about it?
A. To that I have to say the following: Inciting means to bring a man into a condition of excitement to the extent of which he commits an irresponsible deed.
Have the contents of the "Stuermer" done so? Have they? The question must be answered here, "What did the 'Stuermer' write?" Several volumes of the "Stuermer" are available, but one should have to look at all the editions of all the twenty years so that you could exhaustively answer that question. twenty years dealing with the race, dealing with what the Jews have written in the Old Testament themselves, what they have written in the "Talmud." I have printed excerpts from Jewish historical works, for instance, written by Professor Dr. Graetz, the Jewish scientist Gut not, and in the "Stuermer" no leading article has been written by me or has appeared written by one of my main officers, in which I did not bring quotations from the old history of the Jews, the Old Testament and Jewish historical works of recent times. all the articles that prominent Jews, leading authors, of themselves admitted that during the twenty years I have made public statements as author and as orator. It is my conviction that the contents of the "Stuermer" as such were not inciting. During the whole of the twenty years I have never clearly said "Burn Jewish houses down; beat them to death." Never once did such an incitement appear in the "Stuermer". any act, happened since the "Stuermer" appeared, and did either of them say "This is the result of an incitement; it is a deed due to an incitement." And, as such, I would, for instance, regard a program as a spontaneous deed if the population suddenly raised an excitement to beat other people to death. During the twenty years no program took place in Germany. During the twenty years, as far as I know, no Jew was killed, no murder took place, of which you could have said, "This is the result of an incitement which had been carried out by anti-Semitic authors or speech makers."
Gentlemen, we are in Nurnberg. In the past there was a saying that nowhere were the Jews in Germany so safe and so unmolested as they had been in Nurnberg.
THE PRESIDENT: Is not this becoming a rather lengthy speech?
Q Streicher, you've explained this quite sufficiently, so that one can form an opinion. Do you want to say, "I have incited so that no spontaneous action carried out by any certain groups of people or originating from the masses against the Jews did happen"?
A May I make a remark on that subject? Here we are concerned with the most mysterious and most decisive accusation raised against me by the Prosecution, and in this connection I ask the Tribunal to permit me to defend myself against it. It is the most significant fact that in Nurnberg, of all places, no murder took place, no single murder and no corrupt action. It is a fact.
THE PRESIDENT: You have already said it. I have just written down, before I intervened, saying that no Jews have been killed, not only in Nurnberg, but anywhere else, as a result of your incitement. BY DR. MARX: of the 9th and 10th of November, 1938, later.
A Yes, but may I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the question?
A (Continuing) The Prosecution have accused me that by inciting I had indirectly contributed to mass extermination, and so, may I ask to be allowed to explain? Some thing has been ascertained about which I didn't know. I received knowledge of testament left behind by the Fuehrer, and I assumed that a few moments before his death the Fuehrer would have told the truth in that testament.
He says that mass exterminations had been carried out by his orders and that these mass exterminations had been reprisals. That proves that I, myself, cannot have been a participant in those incredible matters which occurred here. I am finished. saying that these mass killings could not have been possible if, behind the Government and behind the leaders in the state, there hadn't been a knowing people. Gentlemen, first of all, the question, "Did the German people really know what was happening during the years of the war?" We know today-
THE PRESIDENT: That is a matter of argument and not a matter upon which you can give evidence. You can say what you knew.
THE WITNESS: I was a part of that nation during the war. During that war I was living in the country in loneliness. For five years I never left my farm. I was watched by the Gestapo, and since the year of 1939 the Feuhrer had -BY DR. MARX:
Q. (Interposing) Forgive me for interrupting. Mr Streicher, we were coming to that later. I have asked you a question, and I now continue to put the next question, and the other business will come later.
A. But I wish to state that I have had no opportunity so far, that I have had no chance to learn what in fact was going on. Mass killings, mass murders, I only heard of at Mondorf when I was in prison. But I am stating here that if I had been told that two or three million people were killed, then I wouldn't have believed it. I would not have believed that it was technically possible to kill so many people. saw it, I would not have believed it, that is, that mass killings to that extent to which they had taken place could have taken place at all. Finished.
Q. You are also being accused that it had been the task of the educators of the nation to educate people and poison them with hatred, and that you particularly had devoted yourself to that task. What are you replying to that accusation?
A. That is the statement that we have trained murderers. The contents of the articles which I have written couldn't train murderers and no murders took place, and that is the proof, that is the evidence that we didn't train murderers. The thing which happened during the war -- well, I certainly did not educate the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer has given the order on his own initiative.
Q. I now continue. It has also been stated by the Prosecution that Himmler and Kaltenbrunner and other SS leaders would have had had no one to carry out their orders to kill if you hadn't made that propaganda and if you hadn't conducted the education of the German people in that sense.
Will you make a statement on that?
A. I don't believe that the National Socialists you have mentioned read "Der Stuermer" every week. I don't believe that those who had been given the order by the Fuehrer to carry out killings or to pass on an order to kill, that those people would have been made to do this by my periodical. Hitler's book, "Mein Kampf", existed, and the contents of that book were the authority, the cause. And I don't believe that the mentioned persons have read that book either and carried out the order on the strength of it. vinced that if the Fuehrer gave an order everyone acted, and I am stating here that maybe fate has been kind to me. If the Fuehrer had ordered me to do those things I wouldn't have been able to kill, and perhaps today I would be indicted in some way or other which is now not possible against me. Perhaps fate has been kind. zine, was suggesting, and they didn't quite understand. His ways were so unusual. Yet, if you know, you will realize that everyone who had an order would act, and thus I must describe as untrue and incorrect what has been thought fit to be stated against me.
Q. What do you know about the general attitude of Adolf Hitler regarding the Jewish question? When did Hitler become hostile to the Jews at all, as far as you know?
A. Even before Adolf Hitler became a popularly known figure, I had written anti-Semitic articles. However, only on the strength of his book, "Mein Kampf," did I learn about the historic connection of the Jewish problem. Hitler wrote his book when he was in prison in Landsberg. Anyone who knows the book will also know that Hitler, many years back, either to study antiSemitic literature or for some other experience, must have come to the conclusion and the knowledge which made it possible for him to write that book in so short a time in prison.
was anti-Semitic and that he knew the Jewish problem to the last letter. He himself has often said to me personally -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) Dr. Marx, the book, "Mein Kampf", is in evidence, and it speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS: I am now coming to the answer to your question, not with reference to the book. But you asked me whether Adolf Hitler talked about the Jewish problem to me. The answer is yes. Adolf Hitler always discussed the Jewish problem when he talked about Bolshevism. did Hitler want a war against Russia? Did he warn long in advance that such a war would come? When he sat together with us, Adolf Hitler waid that Stalin was a man whom he worshipped as a man of action, but in reality he was surrounded by Jewish leaders, and that Bolshevism -BY DR. MARX:
Q. (Interposing) Mr. Streicher, that is going too far again. The question was quite exact, the question which I put, and I am asking you not to go into so many details. You have heard that the Tribunal is objecting, and in the interest of not delaying the proceedings you must not go into so many details. You mustn't make speeches.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I believe, Mr. President, that Mr. Justice Jackson has justly remarked a short while ago that the defendant Streicher lets himself be dragged into speeches and does not answer the questions which are put to him. Therefore, I would like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that the witness would eliminate the speeches, and he should be admonished to answer directly to the questions put to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you go on, Dr. Marx, and try and keep the witness to an answer to the questions which you have no doubt prepared.
DR. MARX: Very well, Mr. President.
THE QITNESS: May I, please, as a defendant here say a few words regardin the question -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) No, you may certaily not. You will answer the questions, please.
BY DR. MARX:
Q. Next question. Is there any reason for the assumption that Hitler, when he decided that Jews should be exterminated in masses, was subject to any influence, or what is to be considered the motive for that dreadful decision?
A. The Fuehrer could not be influenced. If somebody had gone to see him and told him that Jews should be killed, then he would have turned him down. And, if, during the war someone had gone to him and said "I have learned that you are giving the orders that mass exterminations are to be carried out," then he would have turned that man down too. I therefore answer your question by saying that the Fuehrer cold not be influenced.
Q. In other words, you want to say that his decision was made on his own initiative.
A. I have already said that that becomes clear from his last will.
Q. In August 1938 the main synagoge in Nurnberg burned down. Was it set on fire by your orders?
A. Yes. In my Gau, in my district, there were approximately 15 synagogue one main synagogue in Nurnberg, a smaller one, and I think there were several praying rooms. The main synagogue stood in the middle of the medieval town of the Reich. Already before 1933, during the so-called time of struggle, when we still had another type of Government, I had stated publicly during a meeting that it was a disgrace that in the old, medieval city such an oriental, tremendously large building should have been put. synagogue dismantled, and at the same time the planetarium. May I point out that after the World War, in the middle of the "ring" of the city and in the garden which was there for the recreation of the citizens, a planetarium had been built, an ugly brick building. I gave the order to break down that building and said that the main synagogue, too, should be torn down. I would have given the order after the seizure of power that every synagogue in my district should be torn down, and all synagogues in Nurnberg would have been torn down by my orders.
synagogue, was torn down. The synagogue in the Westheim Strasse in the new town remained untouched. That the order was given in November of that year to burn down the synagogue, that is no fault of mine.
these buildings for those reasons but you ordered it because it didn't fit in the style of the city?
A For reasons of town buildings, yes. Originally, I wanted to submit a picture to the bureau but unfortunately I didn't get it.
A Yes, but you can't see the synagogue on it. I don't know whether the Tribuna wants to see this picture, this actual picture of these old houses, but the from view of the synagogue as it was seen by Hans Sachs square was not visible. I don't know whether I may submit this to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly. the photograph can be put in. Let us see the photograph.
DR. MARX: In that case, I am submitting it to the Tribunal as evidence and I am asking you to accept it accordingly.
THE PRESIDENT: What will it be, exhibit what?
DR. MARX: I am afraid I cannot say at the moment, Mr President. I shall take the liberty of stating the number later and for the moment, I am confining myself to having it submitted. I couldn't present it any earlier because the picture didn't reach me; it certainly came through within the last days.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on. BY DR. MARX: architectural experts and their opinion? architect said that there had been counselors who had no architecture understanding--was incredible--this one was not in any way against the synagogue as a church; it was directed against such building in such a part of the city, and strangers whom I used to accompany during the Party rally days, even British and American people, used to cross the Hans Sachs square and look, and I said-- I remember one case where I said to somebody, "Aren't you noticing anything", and he didn't; but others stopped and said, quite frightened."How could that building get in amongst those medieval buildings?" I could submit a book, written in 1877, which is in the present library and where Professor Bernais, who was famous is writing to the author in Switzerland that he had now seen the Hans Sachs Square
Q Mr. Streicher, that is enough. In other words, you have indicated that you were relying on the judgment of expert architects and that you can refer to them?
Q At the time when the synagogue was dismantled, did you make a speech? from a daily paper, that has been written by quite a simple young man, and I want to state that this article was not a true representation of the statements which I had made. 1938. What can you say about them and which part did you play in that connection? Were these demonstrations made by the population on their own initiative? on the occasion of the historic day, the 9th of November--on the 9th of November we have sat down to dinner in the big hall of the Town Hall in Munich and it was customary that after dinner, the Fuehrer made a short speech. On the 9th of November 1938, I didn't feel so well. I did not participate in the dinner and then I left and returned to Nurnberg and I want to bed. It was midnight when I was awakened. My driver told me that the SA leader von Obernitz wants to talk to the Gauleiter. I received him and he said the following: "Gauleiter, you have already left and the Minister of Propaganda Dr Goebbels spoke ans said..." --If I can only repeat it approximately -- said "The Counsellor of the Embassy, von Rath, has been murdered in Paris; that it was already the second murder abroad in which a prominent Nazi was made the victim. This murder isn't the murder of the Jew Gruenspan; this is an action which has been designed by the entire Jewry and something would now have to be done." I don't know whether Goebbels said the Fuehrer ordered it, but I only remember that from Obernitz-- He told me that Goebells had stated that synagogues were to be set on fire and I cannot now remember exactly but I think he also told me that Jewish businesses, too, had to have their windows smashed and that houses should be demolished. So I said to Obernitz, because I was surprised, Of course-I said, "Obernitz, I thik it is wrong that synagogues should be set on fire and at this moment I think it is wrong that Jewish businesses should be demolished. I think this demonstration is wrong. If people are let loose during the night, perpetrations may happen for which one cannot take responsibility." And I said to Obernitz, in particular, "The setting on fire of synagogues is considered wrong by me because abroad and also in amongst the German people, the opinion might be formed that National Socialism had now started the fight against religion."
Obernitz replied "I have the order." I said "Obernitz, I will not assume resposibility in this connection." Obernitz left and the deed happened. The thing which I have said under oath, it has already been stated by me during several interrogations. My driver will confirm it, who had knowledge of this night and was a witness to it. Shortly afterwards, when he went to bed, he said to his wife what he had heard up there in my bedroom.
Q Have you finished?
Q Oh, yes; was the action spontaneous; did it come from the people, did it, on their own initiative? article, which stated that a spontaneous action of the population had revenged the murder of von Rath. It had therefore been deliberately ordered from Berlin that there should be a public statement, that the demonstrations of 1938 had been spontaneous; that this was so, that this is something which I have been able to experience in Nurnberg and it is remarkable that the dislike for what had happened during these demonstrations expressed itself in that year in Nurnberg, right down it went to the Party members. The prosecution has submitted an article which is a report about a speech which I had made on the 10th of November and that is a remarkable piece of evidence for the fact that the people were against this action. I was forced, because of the atmosphere which prevailed in Nurnberg, to make a public speech and say that one should not have so much sympathy and pity for the Jews. That is how the matter happened in November 1938. Perhaps it might be important that you should as me how it is, that is, how those people should have turned down the idea of that demonstration.
Q I thought you had explained that. Who gave the order for the burning down of the synagogue on Essenwein Strasse?
A I don't know who gave the order. I believe it was the SA leader von Obernitz. I don't know the details.
Q Next question: Did you yourself express the fact publicly that you disliked these measures?
A Yes. Amongst leading Party members I said what I have always said publicly, and stated that this was wrong. I talked before lawyers during a meet ing. I don't know whether my defense counsel was there. I believe it was still in November 1938 that I spoke before the Nurnberg lawyers at a meeting and said that what had happened herem during that action, was wrong; it was a wrong done to the people and it was wrong before the countries abroad, and I said the anyone who knew the Jewish question as well as I did would understand why I considered that demonstration a mistake.
I don't know whether this was reported to the Fuehrer at that time, but after November 1938 I was never again called by him when the Fuehrer came to Nurnberg, when he came to stay at the Hotel Deutscher Hof. I don't know whether this was the reason, but at any rate, I criticized these demonstrations publicly of Jews was introduced, Is this true, and what is the explanation?
A In 1938 the Jewish question entered a new phase. That was shown by that demonstration. I myself can only say that as far as I know there was no preliminary conference. I assumed that it was done quite impulsively as the Fuehrer would do it, acting on the spur of the moment. Probably as late as the 9th of November, he got around to saying to Dr. Goebbels, "The synagagues must be burned down." As I said, I myself didn't attend such a meeting, and I don't know what happened to bring about this acceleration. which the Jews were to be eliminated from the economic life of the country. Was there a connection between the orders of the 9th and that decree of the 12th, and would that connection be due to the same reason?
A I can only say that I am convinced that there was a connection. The decrees which referred to the economic field came from Berlin. We didn't have any conferences.
I just don't remember any Gauleiter meetings in which that was discussed. That happened just as everything happened; we weren't previouly informed. task of looking after the question?
A Rosenberg was the spiritual trustee of the movement, but he hadn't be given this particular task. He had been given neither the task of this demonstration nor economic tasks. taking care of the enlightenment on racial-political grounds. It wasn't you, was it? How can that be explained? How can it be explained that you weren't choosen? lectually, and because of his knowledge, he was suited to take on this job. I devoted myself to popular enlightenment.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, he has told us that he wasn't given the task. Unless he had some communication with Rosenberg he can't tell us anything more about it except that he wasn't given the task. All the rest is mere comment and argument.
DR. MARX: Yes. BY DR. MARX:
Q I now put the next question to you: Was there, during the year of 1939 an order issued that you mustn't speak?
A Yes. In the autumn of 1939, my enemies at last achieved that the Fuehrer, without asking me previously, and through Party Member Hess, issued a written order stopping me from making speeches. The threat of immediate arrest was contained therein, if I should infringe this order.
Q Isn't it also correct that in 1938 there even seemed to be an inclination to stop the publication of the Stuermer - I mean in Government circles? documents in this connection to save time. Schirach, and I can give an explanation right now. At that time, in 1939, there were intentions of prohibiting the Stuermer. Bormann had even issued some such order, and that chief editor of the Stuermer was writing to prominent members of the Party, asking them to state their opinion about the Stuermer, and letters were received from Himmler and von Schirach Altogether, I think about 15 letters were received from prominent members of the movement, and they were merely kind replies to my inquiries.
Armed Forces District Commissioner in your Gau?
Q And how can that be explained?
A Oh well, maybe that isn't quite so important. That is how conditions were at the time. There were certain personal attitudes. It is of no significance. At any rate, I didn't become an Armed Forces District Commissioner. September 1939, the persecution of the Jews increased more and more. What do you think that was due to? not by me.
Q But don't you think it had something to do with the outbreak of war? instituted against you. How did that happen? What was the outcome, and the result of that trial? briefly before this International Military Tribunal something which I had to keep silent about up to now because of the Fuehrer Order. I myself had introduced proceedings against myself before the Supreme Party Court so as to defend myself against people who were denouncing me. I was being accused -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): Is the defendant talking about some order which Hitler gave that he was not to be allowed to speak or is he talking about something else?
You remember, Dr. Marx, that certain allegations were struck out of the record. If he is talking about those, it seems to me that we have got nothing whatever to do with it. Am I not right in recollecting that something was struck out of the record?
DR. MARX: Yes, Mr. President, but only one passage from the Goering Report was left out, which was one dealing with that affair referring to the three young persons, but everything else was maintained by the Prosecution, and the Defense, therefore, must refer to these points. The Prosecution didn't say, of course, that they were dropping the entire Goering report, and in that connection these proceedings before the Supreme Party Court play an important part. He can make a brief statement on it.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
DR. MARX: And I can so direct him. BY DR. MARX: myself. There were about ten points which had been raised against me, and among them was a matter referring to some shares, and an affidavit existed which stated that I had been sentenced. May State here that the trial was never completed and no sentence was passed. to shares of the Marx works? Of course, we'll come to that later.
And then you were ordered to the Pleikerthof?
again to voluntarily be active in the Party movement and what is correct is that the Gestapo did supervise, did watch me and every visitor was called to the police station and interrogated regarding the discussion which they had. That is a fact. say in writing, with any leading personalities in the Party or state?
A No. As far as prominent persons in the movement and in the state is concerned I had no written contact with them and that is why the Prosecution could hardly find any letters. I never referred to the Jewish problem in writing or any such matters. So as to your question exactly, I shall have to state I have had no contact or correspondence with prominent persons in the Party or the state. after the outbreak of war or were you consulted on these questions?
Q What was your relationship to Himmler? Did you know him at all closely? Did you discuss measures against the Jews with him at any time or did he talk about intended mass executions?
A I knew Himmler just as I knew the SA or SS leaders. I knew him from joint meetings and rallies, Gauleiter conferences. On no occasion did I have a political discussion with Himmler. He then, once or twice in the presence of others, touched upon this matter or the other. The last time I saw Himmler was in Nurnberg when he spoke before officers in the Casino, the officers' mess. When that was I cannot say exactly but I think it was shortly before the war. I never had a talk about the Jewish problems with him, he himself was enlightened. He had an organ of his own called the "Black Corps". when I was still on my farm. There were denunciation against me which reached him. It was stated that I was being too humane to French prisoners of war and shortly after that I received a letter, in which he blamed me, seriously accused me and I did not answer. He made no previous inquiries and asked me whether these denunciation were true but he was accusing me seriously and I am stating quite openly that it was my feeling at the time that it might be quite possible that even I might lose my liberty and be arrested.
That was my relationship to Himmler. tioned who played a leading part in the Jewish persecutions, as for instance, Heydrich, Eichmann, Ohlendorf and so on. Were there, any connections between you and one of those higher SS and police leaders? first time here during interrogations. I did not know these gentlemen. They probably saw me but there was no contact between myself and the higher SS and police leaders.
There had never been a conference nor had I ever gone to any of Himmler's offices or any ministry in Berlin so that there were never any discussions or conferences. in the Stuermer that as early as 1942 and 1943 you had knowledge of the mass executions of Jews which had taken place and I should like you to make a statement on the subject and tell us when and in which way you heard of these mass executions which had taken place in the east. land. Sometimes that weekly journal contained hints that something was not quite in order somewhere and I think it was at the end of '43 or 1944 that an article appeared in this Jewish weekly, in which it said that in the east, I think it was Poland, masses of Jews were disappearing. The article to which I am referring will probably be presented here but I am stating quite frankly that these Israelitic weeklies in Switzerland did not represent an authoratiative source to me. It did not quote figures; it did not talk about mass executions; it just mentioned disappearances.
Q Have you finished? the Jewish question and did that go even during the war?
Q And in what sense?
view that the Jewish question can only be solved internationally since there were Jews amongst all the nations. For that reason we were publishing articles in my weekly journal referring to the Zionist demand that a Jewish state should be created, as it had been proposed in the Balfour declaration. There were therefore, two possibilities as to a preliminary solution amongst the nations and then there was the creation of a Jewish state. During the war, I think it was in 1941 or 1942, we had written another article which was to be censored in Berlin and the draft, which had been submitted, was returned by the censor with the remark that the article must not be published since it was proposing Madagascar as the location for the Jewish state. The political relations with France were given as the reason why that article should not be published. mass executions would you have written that article?
Q Weren't you wondering about the fact that you were dealing with the Jewish question from a biased standpoint? Did you not consider that those qualities of the Jews which are described as great were completely ignored by you?
A I did not understand the question. Perhaps I did not hear it quite clearly. one-sided qualities of the Jews whereas the other qualities of the Jewish people were not being discussed by you. What is the explanation?
A I think that that question is really superfluous. It is a perfectly natural affair that I, as an anti-semitic person and considering how I learned about the Jews, was in no way interested in doing that. Perhaps the advantages which you or some others might recognize in the Jews were not recognized by me, that is possible. But at any rate I was not interested in making research which might show particular advantages one might ascertain in that connection.
THE PRESIDENT: This would seem a good time to break off.
(A recess was taken)
Q. Did you visit concentration camps?
A. Yes. I visited the concentration camp at Dachau.
Q. When was that?
A. I believe the first time on the occasion that all gauleiters were called together. I believe 1935 or so. I don't know for sure -- 1934 or 1935 or 1933 -- I don't know.
Q. At what intervals did you then visit these camps. It is said that every four weeks you had been in Dachau. Mr. Streicher, always will you make a short pause after my question and only then begin with your answer?
A. Will you repeat?
Q. It is asserted that you had been in Dachau every four weeks. What were the intervals between your visits?
A. Altogether I was four times at Dachau.
Q. It has been asserted that after each of your visits in Dachau, that after that date Jews disappeared.
A. That I don't know -- whether Jews disappeared.
Q. What caused you to visit Dachau repeatedly?
A. I went to Dachau to visit in prison social democratic and communistic functionaries -- to have them introduced to me, and I don't know how many hundreds of them. Every time when I was in Dachau I saw to it that a number, ten or twenty, were selected, of whom it had been found out by the police that they had no criminal sentences -- no previous criminal sentences. I selected them from the entire number and then, at Christmas of every year, I had them brought to Nurnberg into the Hotel Deutscher Hof, where I brought them together with their wires and children and gave them a communal dinner. They were quartered and took part in a dinner. I should like to add to the Tribunal for the benefit of the people of Nurnberg that I may be permitted to make a statement as to why I took these communists out. I was brought into Party proceedings because I did that. There are certain rumors which are not true. May I therefore make a short statement as to why I did it?
DR. MARX: I would like to ask the Tribunal to approve, Mr. President, so that the reasons why the Defendant -