Foreign Office, because they were very particular and because the officials of the Foreign Office were most appalled. I asked them quite often to have these matters put to the Minister through the official, authorized channels. Over and above that, one of the closest cooperators of the Foreign Minister, the Chief of Records, Ambassador von Buelow-Schwandte, was given material by me, as much as was possible. And, according to the information I received from Buelow-Schwandte, he repeatedly submitted that material to Neurath. Papen? Was von Papen subject to action by the Gestapo? put under surveillance by the Gestapo in the earlier years; and amongst wide circles of the people there was the impression that von Papen was particularly interested in decency and right. A large group collected around von Papen, and, of course, that was most carefully watched by the Gestapo. Complaints were received by the score by von Papen, and there was a careful listing in von Papen's office, since no doubt von Papen quite often took these papers either to Goering or to Hindenburg. the Gestapo and so, on the 30th of June 1934, Oberregierungsrat von Boder, the closest assistant of von Papen, was shot dead in the doorway of von Papen's ministry room, and two other assistants of von Papen were made prisoners. arrested weeks before the 30th of June, and murdered on the morning of the 1st of July, when he was found in a ditch near the highway near Oranienburg.
Q Did von Papen continue in office after that? the Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss was murdered he was sent to Vienna as Hitler's Ambassador.
Q Did he ever make any protests that you know of?
we were extremely keen to hear which minister might be protesting. However, any letter originating from Papen to the Ministry of the Interior never did arrive. Austria? Papen's closest collaborator, Legation Counsul Freiherr von Ketteler, was kidnapped by the Gestapo. We looked for him for many weeks, until three or four weeks later his body was washed up on the banks of the Danube. Government, and accept further offices from Hitler's hands?
A He wasn't any longer a member of the Government at the time. Immediately after the march into Austria von Papen was made Ambassador, which rather put him out of action. However, it didn't take long before he continued his activities as charge d'Affaires at Ankara.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Does the Tribunal desire to rise at this points
THE PRESIDENT: You would like a little more time, wouldn't you, with this witness?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It will take a little more time, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until Friday, 26 April 1946, at 1000 hours.
BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Dr. Gisevius, yesterday you made some reference to Herbert Goering in saying that Schacht had sent word to you about the Gestapo microphones in Schacht's house. Will you tell us who Herbert Goering was in relation to the defendant?
A Herbert Goering was a cousin of the defendant Goering. I had known him for many years. Herbert, as well as his brothers and sisters, warned me, over a period of years, about the disaster which would overtake Germany if at any time a man like their cousin Hermann Goering would have a position of even the smallest responsibility. They called my attention to the characteristics of the defendant, which, in the meantime, all of us had gotten to know, starting with his vanity, his love of ostentation, his lack of responsibility, his lack of scruples, and his walking over the dead, so to speak. expect of him. and having these early conversations with Schacht, and up until about 1937, you, as I understand it, were very critical of Schacht because he had helped the Nazis to power and continued to support them. Is that true? wise in economics as he was, could enter into a close relationship with Hitler the way he did. The puzzle that confronted me was all the greater when, on the other side, this man Schacht, from the beginning onward, in a thousand small ways, resisted the Nazis, and then, judging from the rather sharp and humerous remarks which were made about the Nazis, how the German public was glad to hear them.
I was confronted by a puzzle, until I actually met the man. German people, did he not, particularly with German people of responsibility and power? proponent of decency and right in him; and the German people heard that he undertook many steps in that direction. of Economics. this, if I may interrupt you.
Q During this period you reported to Dr. Schacht fully concerning your findings about the criminal activities of the Gestapo, did you not?
A Yes; on occasion I spoke quite frankly. Goering did not know about these things.
A Yes. He was of the opinion that Hitler did not know anything about such terrible things, and that Goering, perhaps knew only a part. of the Economics Office, did he not? Of course, I may be wrong. I believe it would be more correct to say that Schacht looked for support from Goering and hoped that Goering would protect him from the Party and the Gestapo. until late 1936 or 1937?
that Schacht was the dominant economic figure in the rearmament program until he was superseded by Goering with the Four Year Plan?
A I do not know whether everything came through to me. He was at the top of the Economics Ministry and he was the leading man for German economy, of course, not only for rearmament but for all questions of G erman economy. And, of course, rearmament was just a part of German economy. during all this period, that under G erman constitutional law no war Could be declared except by authority of the Reich cabinet. Is that correct? tion, the war was illegal, by German law, as declared and carried out by Hitler, in your view. have if there was a successful overthrow of the Hitler regime. Schacht was under consideration for Chancellor, was he not, if that movement was successful?
A No. It is only correct as to the first offer that Halder made in August of 1938, or perhaps even July 1938, when he visited Schacht for the first time. At that time he asked--and I had word of this information--Halder asked Schacht whether, in the case of a change in the government, he would be ready to take over a position like that. Schacht replied that he would be ready for anything and everything if the generals would eliminate the Nazi regime and Hitler. very latest there was a period of time when Beck was the acknowledged head of all conspirators, all conspirators from the leftist to the rightist wing. Together with Beck, Goerdler emerged as the leading personality for the position of Reich Chancellor, and after that period of time we were to speak only of Goerdler in that regard.
Q Now, I want to ask you some questions about the Defendant Keitel. Of course, we have heard that Hitler was the actual head of the state, but I want to ask you whether Keitel occupied a position of real leadership and power in the Reich. Reich. I would like to say also that I was a very close friend of four of the closest collaborators of Keitel. They were the chief of the Waffen Amt in the OKW, the murdered General Olbrecht. Rather, he committed suicide. No, he was murdered. Number 2, the chief of the Abwehr, Admiral Canaris. He was also murdered. And, lastly, the chief of the army economy, General Thomas, who, through a miracle, escaped being murdered. friendship, and from these men I found out very exactly what tremendous influence Keitel had on the OKW and on the entire dealing with the army, and also through the representation of the army before the German people. must testify to the fact that Keitel influenced the OKW and the army all the more.
Keitel decided which files were to be transmitted to Hitler. It was not possible that Admiral Canaris or one of the other gentlemen I mentioned could, of his own accord, submit very urgent reports to Hitler. Keitel took these reports, and what he did not like he did not transmit or he gave these men the order not to report in the sense quoted. sleves exclusively to their own sector and their own problems, and that each and every political expression which was to be intetpreted as critical toward the Party, toward the Gestapo, against the persecution of the Jews, against the murders in Russia, or against the fight against the churches -- that if the: made any utterances in that regard he would not protect them, and, as he said later, that he would not stop to dismiss these gentlemen from the armed forces and to turn them over to the Gestapo. personally; also the notes of General Oster which dealt with the discussions in the OKW. I talked with Dr. Sack of the army about this, and I am very much con cerned with testifying here that General Fieldmarshal Keitel, who should have protected his own officers, repeatedly threatened then with the Gestapo.
He put these men undet pressure, and these gentlemen considered that as a special insult. have a very large control of the entire OKW underneath him. Is that not true?
A Did you say Hitler? mand the entire OKW underneath him ? to Hitler by subordinate officers in the OKW?
Q In other words, whatever Hitler's own inclinations may have been, the these men, in this dock formed a ring around him which kept out information from your group as to what was going on unless they wanted Hitler to hear it, isn't that a fact? ples which I consider especially significant. First of all, it was tried with every means to have Keitel warn Hitler before the invasion of Belgium and Holland and to tell him, Hitler that is, that the information which had been submitted by Keitel regarding the violation of the Dutch and Belgians was wrong. The counter-intelligence was to produce these reports which would involve the Dutch and Belgians. Admiral Canaris at that time refused to sign these reports and he told Keitel repeatdly that these reports which have been produced by the OKW were wrong. That is one example of reports that Keitel did not transmit to Hitler -- things which he should have transmitted to Hitler. the details of the murders in Poland and Russia were concerned to submit the facts to Hitler. Admiral Canaris and his friends were very much concerned to prevent and cut off even the beginning of these mass murders and to inform Keitel while the first preparations by the Gestapo were being taken for these misdeeds and atrocities. We were in the possession of proof through Nebe and other personalities. Keitel was informed.
as to this in detail, and here again he did not resist. He who did not stop the Gestapo at the beginning, should and could not be surprised if at the end disaster by the millions arose.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson. I think you put your question "did not these men in the dock form a ring which prevented you getting to Hitler", and the question was answered rather as though it applied only to Keitel. If you intended to put it with reference to all Defendants. I think it ought to be cleared up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think that is true. BT MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: the reports which should go to Hitler from that particular ministry, did they not? for, first of all, it was a close clan which put a cordon of silence around Hitler, A man like von Papen or von Neurath cannot be included in this group or clan, for it was true that von Papen and von Neurath, and perhaps one or the other of the Defendants, did not have the possibility, or not for a long time, to have access to Hitler and to regulate the access. Besides von Neurath there was also von Ribbentrop. I can only say that a certain group, which was probably known, was the most intimate and close circle. and those who were able to prevent access to Hitler by their subordinates. That would apply, would it not, to Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel, Kaltenbrunner, Frick. and to Schacht, during the period until he broke with them, as you have testified, and to Doenitz, Raeder, Sauckel, and Speer?
A You mentioned some and some are missing. To mention Jodl: I would like to call your attention to the tremendous and disastrous influence which this Defendant had and the positions which he had with Hitler. I believe my testimony shows about each open and decent report which actually reached Hitler from his ministry. As far as this is concerned, I do not believe he had a special position of not being evil and to block access. I believe his problem is that of a responsibility.
Q Shaould I have included Funk in the group that had access to Hitler? Funk had the responsibility that the affairs in the Reichsbank and in the ministry of economics were directed in such a way as Hitler desired it.
Funk was an expert and put his expert knowledge at the service of Hitler, without doubt. Keitel as to the criminal activities of the Gestapo?
Q Did others participate with you in the preparation of those reports?
A Yes, it was the work of a group. We gathered reports about plans of the Gestapo and preparations, and we gathered material about the first cruelties, so that the courageous men at the front, officers of the General Staff and of the Army, put up workers, made photographs, and this material came to the group, Canaris and Oster. Then the problem arose how we would bring this material to the access of Keitel. It was generally known that officers, even highly placed officers like Canaris and Thomas, were forbidden to report on political matters. The difficulty was, therefore, not to have Canaris and the others to be put under the suspicion that they were stabbing in politics; but we chose another way, a detour that they were sending agents' reports from foreign countries abroad to occupied countries; and under this ruse that in this case this or that agent in countries was reporting about atrocities abroad or that agents travelling through had seen cruelties or had found these despicable photographs. Under this ruse we submitted these reports to Fieldmarshal Keitel. Keitel?
A Yes. Without Canaris and without Oster the working out and the gathering of this material would not have been possible at all. at this time when these reports were being submitted?
A Canaris was the senior officer of the OKW. Formerly he had to represent Keitel, when Keitel was absent. Keitel was concerned that some one else took his place, usually his Party men, General Reineke and Oster, as the representative of the Chief of Staff for Canaris and in close relation to him. Keitel could not have wished for a closer contact in reality and in truth than through these two men in the service of the Wehrmacht. in his own organization under himself?
Q Now, what did they report to Keitel? Let me ask you if they reported to him that there was systematic program of murder of the insane going on?
A Yes, indeed. On those subjects, tool, records were produced in detail and it included the despairing reports of the directors of the insane asylums. I can remember the great difficulties we had to motivate these reports and we actually put them through under the ruse that they were reports of foreign doctors. program of extermination of the Jews that was being carried out?
A Keitel know of the first Jewish programs in 1938. He knew continual and he knew of each new action against the Jews. He was informed in great detail. He knew about the first gas chamber or, rather, the establishment of the first mass graves in the East and also of the erection of the murder factories later. Poland against the Poles?
A Yes, indeed. I would like to say, again and again, that the atrocities in Poland sided with single murders which were so horrible that we were still able to make use of the luxury of reporting on single cases and could mention the names of the SS leaders. In this connection, also, Keitel was always informed, nothing was spared him of detail. a trocities against nationals in other occupied countries?
A Yes. First of all, I have to mention the atrocities in Russia and in that connection I must emphasize that Keitel, on the basis of the Polish atrocities, had been warned and he knew what to expect in Russia. And I remenber how the preparation of these orders, as the order of the shooting of the commissars and the Nacht und Nebel decree, took place for weeks in the OKW. So that, right from the very beginning of these preparations, Canaris and Oster begged to have a meeting with Keitel. I would like to add that I do not doubt that other Party men talked to Keitel in the same connection and, especially since I belonged to a certain group, the impression might be created that just here there were only men who were interested in putting a stop to these problems. But I would be concealing vital things if I did not say that in the His Command of the OKW and in the General Staff there were great men who did every thing to reach Keitel through their own channels and in their own ways, and that there were brave men in "the ministeriums who tried to reach every officer whom they saw in order to help them stop these disasters.
of foreign workers and their deportation or importation into Germany? of this day that are plaguing Germany today; are they not?
A Yes. In this connection I would also like to say that in our reports it was mentioned just what responsibility the Wehrmacht would have if these tortured people would be free some day. We felt what was to come end what has to come, and whoever put up and made the report at that time can understand what has taken place. in the occupied countries?
A Yes, indeed. I would like to cite a special example. When at one time we met the leading men of the church and sent than to Norway under the ruse of agents, they came in contact with people in Norway, with Bishop Bergraf, and reported back to us how Bishop Bergraf thought about the persecution of the churches. I can still see this report before me because Keitel made a note on this document that I still remember was a National Socialist note. and Oster and of the reports coming in from the field under this plan? organizations. In your book, which you have been asked about, I think you have characterized the SA as a private army of the Nazi Organization. Is that a correct characterization?
a private army for carrying out the orders of the Nazi Party; did it not? and there came a time when there was some danger to get away from them; wasn't there? was it not, between Goering and Himmler and the Nazi crowd associated with them on one hand and Roehm and his associates on the other? at the time, rather lost importance, didn't it? in to take its place as a private army, didn't it?
Q Now, let's go back to the SA during theperiod before the struggle for power resulting in the Roehm purge. What part did the SA play in the battle for power, the seizure of power? and without doubt the SA, as far as the so-called taking of power is concerned, took a dominating role. Without the SA Hitler would never come to power without doubt.
Q Now, let's take up their methods. Perhaps I can shorten this by quoting from your book. I think you say that whoever had not entirely made up his mind, had it made up for him by the SA. Their methods were primitive but effective. One learned thenew Hitler salute very quickly, when on the sidewalks, beside every marching SA column, and where there were not parades in those days, a few stalwart SA men went along giving pedestrians a crack on the head if they failed to perform the correct gesture, at least three steps ahead of the SA flag. And these Storm Troopers acted the same way in all things. Is that a correct account of their activities and influence?
Q Well, you know so, don't you?
Q Yes. But you saw these things yourself, did you not? You were in Germany at that time. to get the picture of the day to day events, and you were here and we were not.
Now, let me make another quotation: "The chronicle of that private army is certainly dramatic. It teemed with beer hall brawls, street fights, knifings, shootings, and fist fights, altogether a mad rough and tumble affair, that naturally was as lacking in crises of leadership as in mutinies. In this brotherhood of the wild men of German nationalism there was undoubtedly much idealism, but at the same time it was the perfect repository for political derelicts and criminals.
"The failures of all classes found refuge there. The core of the SA. the paid, permanent group, and particularly the leaders, were drawn as time went on more and more from the riffraff of a period of political and social decay."
Is that a correct statement of your observations of the SA at that time?
A Yes. quite.
Q May I call your attention to another quotation: "The SA organized huge raids. The SA searched houses. The SA confiscated property. The SA cross examined people. The SA put people in jail. In short, The SA appointed themselves permanent auxiliary police and paid no attention to any of the customs from the period of the liberal system. The worst problem for the helpless authorities was that the SA never voluntarily returned its booty. Woe unto anyone who got into their clutches. "From this time dtaes the Bunker, that dreaded private prison of which every SA Storm Troop had to have at least one. Taking away became the inalienable right of the SA. The efficiency of a Standartenfuehrer was measured by the number of arrests he had made, and the good reputation of an SA man was based on the effectiveness with which he 'educated'--in quotation marks, the quotation marks being yours--'educated' his prisoners. Brawls could no longer be staged in the fight for power, yet the fight went on, only the blows were now struck in the full enjoyment of power."
Is that a correct statement of your observations of the SA?
Q I think you also used the term "Bunker", and it is a slightly technical term with which some of us are not familiar. Will you tell the Tribunal what this Bunker system of the SA was? poor prisoners were locked up, where they were beaten and in a large measure beaten to death. They were those private jails in which in the first months the leaders of the Leftist Parties and of the unions were placed. The leftist group did not arise again, for there, very thoroughly the entire leadership had been done away with.
Q You also use the term "Taking away became the inalienable right of the SA, and "taking away" is in quotation marks. Will you tell us about this "taking away" word of art, what it means? did not know where the poor victim had disappeared to, and had to be glad if the poor victim ever returned home.
Q I think you also make this observation in your book:
"Every excess was pardoned as over-zealousness in the cause of the National Socialist revolution, was a demonstration of official sanction, and necessarily drew in its wake a fresh crime. It was the bestiality tolerated during the first months that later encouraged the sadistic murders in the concentration camps.
"The growth in brutality and insensibility of the general public, which toward the end of the revolution extended far beyond the territory of the Gestapo was the unavoidable consequence of at first giving free rein to the Brown Shirts in their acts of violence."
Does that, too, represent your observation of the SA? Purge the SA was rather abandoned, as the private army, and a more reliable and smaller and more compact private army was created under Himmler.
A I believe I should express myself to this effect. A guard established by Hitler which had been established long prior to this time now actually came into action. I do not doubt that Himmler and his close circle for years had worked toward this objective so that one day, with their protective guard, they could realize the terror system in Germany. Only up until the 30th of June the SS had been a part of the SA. Roehm was the chief leader of the SS. The road for Himmler as police chief in Germany for the police chief of evil was here only after Roehm had been put aside with his much larger SA. But the will toward power with the SS, with lack of scruples and the ideas therewith, had been planned by the leadership of the SS for many years and had to be assumed so. did it not? in actual practice? What was necessary?
A These men had to be so-called Nordic types. As far as this question was concerned. I always considered it as a rather humorous paper, and for that reason I am not in a position today to give you particulars. It is almost embarrassing for me. far as the selection of those SS men are concerned who were to do police duty, they decided only after a picture of their future victim before the misuse of commands had been submitted to them. I know that, for example, Nebe repeatedly, as far asofficials who wanted him to protect them from the criminal police of the Gestapo and save them in such a way, that he produced bad photographs of these people so that they did not look Nordic.
In that case, of course, they were turned down immediately. about these strange things in this Tribunal. may call fanatical Nazis, reliable Nazis?
A I believe we have to make a limitation in time. In the first years of the SS, many decent German people, especially farmers and people in the country, felt drawn to the SS, for they believed Himmler's assurance that the SS was to bring order in Germany and to be a counter-balance to the SA terror. In that way, in my opinion and to my knowledge, some people in the years before 1933, and even in 1933 and 1934, entered the SS, because they hoped that here would be a nucleus for right and for decency. concerned, to point to their tragic fate. Each and every case should be examined as to whether, later on, they were guilty or whether they remained decent. yesterday as 1935--no one could have any doubts as to the real SS objectives. From that period of time on, I would like to say that only fanatical National Socialists, that is super National Socialists, entered the SS.
the ground, necessarily so, that the persons who entered it knew what its actual activities were?
A Yes: just what orders he had to expect, yes. if there was anything further, and I have nothing further on that incident, in reference to the threat made. Is there anything that you wish to add about that incident in order to make it clear to the Tribunal, anything that hasn't been told about it?
A I would like to say clearly that Dr. Dix not only was responsible in arranging a discussion with Dr. Stahmer for me that morning I arrived in the group of the attorneys and I do not wish to quote particulars but the atmosphere with which I was greeted was not entirely pleasant. Then I was with Dr. Dix to report something else--Dr. Stahmer approached and ostensibly seemed quite excited. He asked Dr. Dix for a discussion. Dr. Dix refused and said that he was just talking with me. Dr. Stahmer demanded in a loud voice that he would have to speak to Dr. Dix immediately and on an urgent business. Dr. Dix stepped aside, took about two steps, and the discussion that followed, the discussion and conversation was carried on by Dr. Stahmer in such a loud voice, that of necessity I had to hear it in its most vital parts. I did hear it and said verbatim to the attorney Dr. Kraus " Just listen here how Dr. Stahmer is carrying on." Dr. Dix then stepped over to me and he also seemed excited and after these preliminaries on my questions just what the message of Goering was--and gave me information about that which I had heard anyway. I would like to emphasize that if I had had the opportunity of my own accord to tell the story, I would have emphasized the point, that I was under the impression that Dr. Stahmer had a message, or rather I would say a threat of the defendant Goering and transmitted this threat to me. state whether there was, to your observation, a systematic practice of the Nazi ministers and Nazi officials enriching themselves by reason of their confiscation of property of Jews and others?
A Yes. This increased from year to year and we kept lists as to which of the ministers and staff office generals and field marshals participated in this system. We had to inquire with the generals whether these items had been put on a bank account or whether this money had been used for their own personal purposes. were engaged in the self-enrichment in the manner that you have indicated? reply.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not coming through to me.
THE WITNESS: I am sorry I am only able to give a negative reply to the Tribunal. I regret to say that I can only give a negative statement.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not coming through to me now.
THE WITNESS: We repeatedly inquired from the defendant Schacht --
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps this will be a good time to adjourn for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken) BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: