THE PRESIDENT: You mean the group which changed; therefore they might be different in '44?
DR. LATERNSER: The point, Mr. President, and in addition to that, especially a largo membership of the people belonging to this circle in the course of '44, because of their official position, actually came to this group, and I do consider this point pertinent.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. BY DR. LATERNSER: generals who participated in the attempted assassination of the 20th of July 1944? Olbrecht, General Hoebner.
Q Just one question. General Hasa, and, certainly, a large number of other generals, whom I am not able to enumerate so rapidly. Here I just mentioned those names of the men who were at that address that afternoon. in this? as Fieldmarshal von Kluge, did participate. But it would give the wrong picture if Fieldmarshal Rommel especially would appear in the category of those who fought against Hitler. Mr.Rommel was a typical Party general and he wanted connection with us very late, and we had a rather unsavory taste when all of a sudden Mr. Rommel in the light of his military catastrophe, proposed to us to have Hitler assassinated but, if possible, Goering and Himmler as well. And, even then, he did not wish to be there at the first, but he wanted to be in a special reserve and to put his popularity at our disposal a little later on. Therefore, it is quite a problem just when these gentlemen entered our group as people who have been beaten, same one who wanted to save their reputation, or who were with us right from the beginning.
Q Did you talk with Rommel about this?
Q Then, a further question. On the 20th of July were officers, of the General Staff active?
Q About how many?
A I can't give you the number for at that time I did not have any inside information as to how many Staufenberg had on his side from the General Staff. I know that Staufenberg and Hansen and some others had found a number of clean courageous officers of the General Staff, and that they could count on the support of many members of the General staff but whom they could not initiate into their plans beforehand.
Q Yes, that is enough for the present. You later mentioned General von Treskow. Did you know him personally? after he found out of the commissar decree, that he saw von Rundstedt and that he was instrumental that this decree was not transmitted in von Rundstedt's sector? no action where he called the attention of his superiors to such decoction I know how at that time the famous commissar decree was known, to us, at first through hearsay, and we at once sent a courier to Treskow to tell him of the bastardly---and how Treskow, after a decree had been publsihed. called upon von Rundstedt, as you described the situation.
THE PRESIDENT: You said a while ago that you were just going to ask your last question.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I am sorry I could not keep to that. I had one further question, but this was my last one.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendant's counsel wish to ask any questions of the witness?
(No response)
Then do the Prosecution desire to cross examine? BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: if you will answer them as nearly as possible, yes or no, as you are capable of giving a truthful answer, you will save a great deal of time.
The Tribunal perhaps should know your relations with the Prosecution. Is it not a fact that within two months of the surrender of Germany I met you at Wiesbaden, and you related to me your experiences in the conspiracy that you have related here? by the Prosecution as well as by the Counsel for Frick and for Schacht? who felt that loyalty to the German people required continuous opposition to the Nazi regime. Is that a correct statement of your position? it was planned that you would be in charge of the police in the reorganization, was it not? might be called. with concentration camps and with Gestapo methods; is that correct?
people cut off by the Gestapo methods which were used by the Nazi regime; is that a fact? except through revolt or assassination, or means of that kind?
A No. I am convinced that until 1937 or the beginning of 1938 the possibility did certainly exist that by means of a majority in the cabinet or by means of pressure from the armed forces a change in the situation in Germany could have been brought about.
ful means to effect a change in Germany; is that correct?
Q Now, it was not until after 1937 that Schacht joined your group; is that not a fact?
A Well, as far as I said, the group wasn't formed until 1937, 1938, but for example, Schacht got me into touch with Goerdeler in 1936, and the acquaintance between Schacht and Oster existed since 1936, just as Schacht knew a large number of other members of the group and for some considerable time. to us, until after 1937, until the Putsch affair, that he wouldn't be able to handle Hitler in some peaceful way; is that not correct?
A What do you mean? Peaceful? In that case, yes. The answer is yes. Schacht until the end of 1937 did believe that a legal removal of Hitler should be impossible. removal of Hitler had become impossible, in fact.
Q Yes. Now, there was, as I understand your view in going to the Generals, there was no power in Germany that could stop or deal with the Gestapo except the Army.
A Yes. I would answer that question in the affirmative. vate army in the SS, did they not, and for a period in the SA? to have manpower which only the Army had; is that right? trying to get hold of the people among the police, and we needed all the decent officials in the ministry -- generally speaking, the masses of the people.
the SS and the Gestapo if the generals had been willing? and felt left out when they wouldn't give you their assistance, finally? knew that the war was lost.
Q And that was before these plots on Hitler's life and it was apparently before the Schwabendorf plot and before the July 20th plot, that the war was lost, was it not? no one couldn't knew, even when the war started, that Hitler could never possibly win this war. the war could not be won by Germany but that Germany was ping to be physically destroyed, as a result of the war; is that not true? no way of changing the course of events in Germany except by assassination or a revolt; is that true? could never make peace with the Allies; is that true? blows which unfortunately she received from the point of view of the Germans; is that not a fact? longer considered Germany alone. I think that I must be permitted to say that we bore our share in the responsibility of Germany as far as the war was concerned.
since yo had not been able to stop its commencement, were you not? government and this group of men behind him?
Q Now, there was another plot on Hitler's life that you haven't mentioned. "as there not a bomb that was later found to have been a Communist bomb; was it not? the beercellar in Munich. It was a bomb individual of Communists, I believe.
Q Now, at none of these times when Hitler's life was endangered, by a strange coincidence was Goering or Himmler ever present; is that not true
Q Do you attach any importance to that fact?
A We have quite often regretted this; for instance, if the attempt had succeeded, if Goering and Himmler had assisted Hitler on the 17th of July--but as years went by the situation was that this clique separated themselves so much and protected themselves so much, that they could hardly be found together anywhere; and Goering, of course, was gradually so keen on his art collection at Karin Hall that he was hardly ever present during serious conferences. from your point of view, if the number two man had stepped into Hitler's place, would it? instance, was imagining that together with Goering they wanted to create a temporary regime. Our group always refused to be together with that man for even one single hour. defendants here, with the exception of the defendant Schacht, all of whom, I understand, you regard as a part of the Nazi government?
until they had been sentenced, they wouldn't have had to wait for any law, of Schacht? and important parts of the Nazi regime--a Nazi conspiracy. Is that a fact?
A I shouldn't like to tie myself down to the words "Nazi conspiracy." Tic considered thorn the men responsible for everything and all the unceasing misery which that government had brought to Germany and the world.
Q I should like to ask you a few questions about the Gestapo. You testified generally in reference to the crimes which were committed by that organization and I ask you to state whether that included the torturing and burning to death of a large number of persons?
A I don't think that question came through correctly. asking if it included the torturing and burning to death of thousands of persons ?
Q Did it involve the unlawful detention of thousands of innocent people? tortured and beaten and killed?
Q Did the Gestapo engage in wholesale confiscation of property?
A Yes, to a degree; they called it "property hostile to the state."
Q And did it practice extortion against Jews and against others? prominent to be murdered until they resigned or were driven from office?
coercion. Gestapo know what the Gestapo was doing, and will you please tell the Tribunal what the situation was as to the membership in that organization and its knowledge of its program? of the Gestapo from the first or second day, would have to see and have to know what that institution is doing. beginning, who were transferred from other branches of the civil service, were they not, who were in a sense invariably members of the Gestapo?
A Yes; these members in the course of the first year were eliminated because of being unreliable politically. did it not?
THE PRESIDENT: What did the witness mean by "eliminated"?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think eliminated from the Gestapo.
THE WITNESS: Gradually they were released from the service of the Gestapo. BY JUSTICE JACKSON: taken to see that no one was permitted in the organization who wasn't in sympathy with its program? Heydrich took ever the business. Actually, beginning with that date, no official was employed or allowed into the Gestapo unless Himmler and Heydrich were sure that he had the attitude which they desired. It may be that during the first month some officials, bureau officials, did got in who had not yet been cleared or did, of course, take quite a lent time after the SS had educated their own criminal officials and trained the police. as possible, after which every member of the Gestapo must have known the criminal program of that organization?
it with neighbors and my friends. The reply entailed very great responsibility and because of my knowledge of that responsibility, I should like to say that from the beginning of 1935, at the very last, at the very latest, everyone had to know what authority, what organization he was joining and which type of orders he might have to expect. were connected with the police administration and you mentioned the Reichstag fire but you did not tell us what your findings were when you investigated that. Will you please tell us?
that quite generally Hitler had stated the wish for a large-scale propaganda campaign. Goebbels took on the job of making the necessary proposals and preparing them, and it was Goebbels who first thought of setting the Reichstag on fire. Goebbels talked about this to the leader of the Berlin SA Brigade, Carl Ernst, and he suggested in detail how it should be carried out. sprayed. It ignites after a certain period, I think hours or minutes. So as to get inside the Reichstag, one needed the corridor which connected the palace of the Reich President with the Reichstag Building. A group of ten reliable SA men were made ready, and now Goering was informed about every detail of the plan. Goering, quite by accident, wasn't making an election speech on that particular evening, but at a late hour was still sitting at his desk in the Ministry of the Interior in Berlin. that the police would be instructed, while still suffering from shock, to take up a false trail. Right from the beginning it was intended that the Communists should be debited with this crime, and it was in that sense that these ten SA men who had to carry out the crime had been instructed.
That is, in a few words, the story of the events. To tell you how we got hold of the details, I have only to add that one of these ten who had to spread the chemical was a notorious criminal, and six months later he was thrown out of the SA. When the award which he had been promised did not arrive, he thought that he should go to the Reich Court, sitting in Leipzig at the time, and report his knowledge to them. He was taken before an interrogator who composed a record, but the Gestapo heard of it and the letter to the Reich Supreme Court was intercepted and destroyed. men of Goering and by order of Gestapo Chief Diehls. Upon finding the body, we picked up the trail of the whole story.
Q What happened to the ten SA man who carried out the Reichstag fire? Are any of them alive now?
A None of them are still alive. Most of them were killed on the 30th of June under the pretext of the Roehm revolt. Only one, a certain Heini Gewehr, was taken over by the police as a police officer, and we followed his trail as well.
He was killed on active service as a police officer on the Eastern Front. affair of Roehm, the murders that followed the Roehm affair. Didn't you so testify?
A I can't say that I carried out the investigation, since we, the Ministry of the Interior, had actually been excluded from the whole affair. But matters were, such that after the 30th of June, all cries for help and all complaints of the affected people reached us in the Ministry of the Interior, During the 30th of June, we received radio messages currently, and heard, through occasional persons in Goering's palace, and through neighbours , what the details were.
Q Now, about how many people were killed in that purge? estimate that no more than 150 to 200 persons lost their lives, which, considering the situation at that time, was an incredible figure. the list which he had been given by Hitler and Goering regarding the number of the dead, and we ascertained that that list which contained 77 names of dead, who had supposedly been killed justly, was exceeded by nearly 100 per cent, through these names which we had received from the Adjutant General's Department or which we had heard through telephone calls from the Ministry of the Interior. purge? compiled exact lists, because I myself listened when in Goering's palace, and I heard it confirmed by Daluege who was present, and also by Nebe who was present from the first second, that no one of those who were killed was mentioned by name. One only referred to it as "No, so and so has now been dealt with"; "No, so and so is missing", and "No, so and so will be dead forthwith", but there is no doubt that on that occasion Heydrich and Himmler had a special list of their own.
and I cannot, for instance, say under oath in this courtroom whether Schleicher's murder was done by order of Goering or whether he was a man who was on Heydrich's or Himmler's special list. knew about the illegal conduct of the Gestapo?
A Yes. Every bit of material which arrived which was important had to be taken to him by me, and I have already described how all these matters were sent to the Secret State Police or to the Interior Ministers of the counties by us by way of reports, so that the situation was, of course, that considering that only the most important things were put before Frick personally, amongst all this material I estimate that several hundred complaints were received daily. Those important things had to be put before Frick, because he had to sign them personally, since Goering was always complaining as soon as he saw that some young official could make requests to the Ministry of State himself and could sign them.
Q Now, was Frick informed of your conclusions about the Roehm purge? to Frick about the murder of Strasser, Klausner and Schleicher, and the many other murders, and Frick was particularly disgusted about the murder of Schleicher because he considered that an act of personal revenge on Himmler's and Goering's part. Likewise, Frick was disgusted about the murder of Klausner, Bohse, Edgar Jung, and the many others who had been murdered without being guilty. He was quite disgusted. murders legitimate and ordering no prosecutions on account of those murders, Frick knew exactly what had happened from you, is that the fact?
A He knew it from me, and he had seen it himself, no doubt. At that moment, the story of the 30th of June must have been known to Frick. being bad and dangerous, cruel persons?
A On that Sunday, the first of July, Frick said to me "If Hitler doesn't very soon do with the SS and Himmler what he has done with the SA today, then he will experience from the SS many things worse than those he has now experienced with the SA."
say that so openly, before me. dangerous persons, did he not thereafter appoint them both in his Ministry of Interior?
A Well, of course, they were actually appointed by Hitler. I can only say that when I took leave from Trick at the time I left the Ministry of Interior in May, 1935, Frick said to me literally this:
on he would only collect Party members in his Ministry and as much as possible those who had the Golden Party Emblem. It might be that as things went on he might even have been forced to allow Himmler into his Ministry and the murderer Heydrich he would not allow into his Ministry under any circumstances These are the last words I exchanged with Frick. control, were they not? Frick remained their superior. BY THE PRESIDENT: the defendant Frick?
Q That was in 1935? controlling of concentration camps, was he not, Dr. Gisevius? from the beginning for all police matters in the Reich and therefore also the concentration camps and I do not believe that one can say he had only had that responsibility since 1934. which has not yet been offered in evidence.
(Witness handed document)
Now, this purports to be a communication from Dr. Guertner, the Minister of Justice, to Reich and Prussian Minister of the Interior. That would be from your friend Dr. Guertner to Frick, would it not?
A I believe I heard you say "friend". Guertner during the time he acted as Minister did not act in such a way that I could call him my friend.
Q Well then, tell us about Guertner. Tell us about Guertner's position in this situation because we have a communication here apparently from him.
cruelty in the camps and to take proceedings. All together and in individual cases Guertner did try quite a lot but that law after the 30th of June was signed by him which made all these dreadful things legal and apart from that, Guertner never drew the consequences from his views. But particularly that document which you put before me was such an attempt on Guertner's part and amongst the decent officials in the Ministry of Justice, to clarify principally the question of the terror of the Gestapo. As far as I recollect this is one of these letters which we discussed unofficially beforehand so as to, shall we say, provoke an answer.
Q I now desire to read some parts of this into the record. It becomes U.S. Exhibit 828. I will offer it as such.
Will you kindly follow the German text and see if I correctly quote:
"My dear Reichsminister:
"Enclosed you will find a copy of a report of the Inspector of the Secret State Police, dated 28 March, 1935.
"This report gives me an occasion to state my fundamental attitude toward the question of the boating of internees. The numerous instances of ill-treatment which have come to the knowledge of the administration of justice can be divided into three different causes for such illtreatment of prisoners:
"1. Boating as a disciplinary punishment in concentration camps.
"2. Ill-treatment, mostly of political internees, in order to make them talk.
"3. Ill-treatment of internees arising out of sheer fun, or for sadistic natives."
I think I will not take the Tribunal's time to read his comment on number one or timber two.
"About number three --"
Do you find that in the German text?
Q "The experience of the first revolutionary years has shown that the persons who are charged to administer the beatings generally lose pretty soon the feeling for the purpose andmeaning of their actions and permit themselves to be governed by personal feelings of revenge or sadistic tendencies.
As an example, members of the guard detail of the former concentration camp at Bredow near Stettin completely stripped a prostitute who had an argument with one of them and boat her with whips and cowhides in such a fashion that the woman two months later still showed two open and infected wounds."
"In the concentration camp at Kemna near Wuppertal, prisoners were locked up in a narrow clothing locker and were then tortured by blowing in cigarette smoke, upsetting the locker, etc. In some cases the prisoners were given first salt herring to eat, so as to produce an especially strong and torturing thirst.
"In the Hohenstein concentration camp in Saxony, prisoners had to stand under a dripping apparatus especially constructed for this purpose until the drops of water which fell down in even intervals caused seriously infected wounds on their scalps.
"In a concentration camp in Hamburg four prisoners were lashed for days, once without interruption for three days and nights, once five days and nights, to a grating in the form of a cross, being fed so meagerly with dried bread that they almost died of hunger.
"Those few examples show such a degree of cruelty which is an insult to every German sensibility, that it is impossible to consider any extenuating circumstances.
"In conclusion, I should like to present my opinion about these three points to you, my dear Herr Reichsminister, in your capacity as cabinet member in charge of the establishment of protective custody and the camps for protective custody." communication by Frick? Ministry of the Interior. I should like to say only one thing as far as the letter is concerned.
which we knew. I participated when this letter was prepared by talking to the officials concerned in the Ministry of Justice. The Minister of Justice could only quote those matters which had reached him through some legal channels and by accident, perhaps, through some proceeding which had been instituted. But there can be no doubt that this letter was merely the cause and the cause in turn was a very cheeky letter from Heydrich to Guertner, dated the 28th of March, 1935, in which he denies that the Minister of Justice has the right to prosecute in the cases described. and no doubt you all have convinced yourself that these conditions which started at that time did never cease but that they got worse and worse as time went on. did there not? ly did not achieve. That will always be to their glory. assassination of Heydrich would result in name improvement in this condition? group, we asked ourselves whether it was possible at all that an even, worse man could possibly be sound after such a monster as Heydrich and as far as that is concerned we really did think that the Gestapo terror would now be alleviated and that perhaps a certain amount of legal treatment might be brought about or that at least the cruelties might be reduced.
Q And then came Kaltenbrunner. Did you notice any improvement after the appointment of Kaltenbrunner? Tell us about that.
A Kaltenbrunner came, yes, and things got worse every day. Once more we had the experience that perhaps the impulsive actions of a murderer like Heydrich weren't as bad as the cold, legal logic of a lawyer who was handling such a dangerous instrument as the Gestapo. attitude than Himmler and Schellenberg had done? Were you informed about that?
A Yes. I know that Heydrich, in a certain sense, felt something like a bad conscience when he committed his crimes. At any rate, he didn't like it too well if, in the circles of the Gestapo, these things were discussed openly. Nebe, who , as Chief of the Criminal Police, had the same rank as the Chief of the Gestapo, Mueller, always told me that Heydrich was anxious and was making every effort to cover up and conceal his crimes. ceased, and now it was openly said amongst the department chiefs of the Gestapo what all these matters were about. They were openly discussed. Of course, the war had started and these gentlemen lunched together, and I repeatedly had the experience that Nebe returned completely exhausted from such luncheons. It came to the point where he had a nervous breakdown. On two occasions Nebe had to take sick leave for lengthy periods because he simply could not stand that open cynicism with which mass murder, and the technique of mass murder, was now being discussed. the first gas chamber, which was discussed in detail amongst these people, just as were the experiments regarding how one could most quickly and most efficiently remove the Jews. They were the most horrible descriptions which I have ever heard in this life of mine; and, of course, it is so much worse when you hear them from some one who is still under the impression of such discussions, and who is practically collapsing, both physically and psychologically. That is worse, of course, than when you hear it via documents. mania and was only a human wreck after everything he had gone through.
the Main Security Office, these who happened to be in town? questions which were of particular importance to us, because we heard about details of the methods used by the Gestapo against our group. instance, the arrest order issued against Goerdler on the 17th of July was mentioned. It was solved during such a luncheon conference, and Nebe warned us at once. That is the reason why Goerdler could escape for a lengthy period, at least, and why we could know how far the Gestapo was informed about our plot.
Q And who were the regular attendants at those luncheon conferences?
A Kaltenbrunner was in the chair. Then there was Gestapo Leader Mueller, Schellenberg, Ohlendorf, and Nebe. the technique of killing by gas, and other measures in the concentration camps, were discussed.
A Yes. It was discussed in great detail, and sometimes I received the description a few minutes later. foreign office about the conduct of the Gestapo? Will you tell us what was done to inform the Foreign Office from time to time of the crimes that the Gestapo were committing? continuously informed, since nearly every day some foreigner was nearly beaten to death or robbed. Then came the diplomatic missions, with their complaints; and these complaints were sent to the Ministry of the Interior by the Foreign Ministry. That came into my sphere. Sometimes four or five such notes from the Foreign Office regarding perpetrations of the Gestapo reached me, and I can testify that in the course of the years no perpetration of the Gestapo was left out of these particular notes. dispatched that you are reasonably certain they would reach Neurath?
A Ribbentrop wasn't the Foreign Minister yet.