BY DR. SEIDL: were brought to the Reich were volunteers? Prosecution of committing a forgery. I merely wanted to point out that possibly they were using a forged document. I didn't want to accuse any one of forging anything. I want to rectify that.
Now, regarding the question put by defendant's counsel, I want to say that according to my observations, by far the greater majority of all the workers from the Government General went to the Reich voluntarily. from the diary, which deals with the recruiting of laborers:
"On the 4 March 1940 the Governor General spoke before a meeting of the chiefs of the districts around Lublin and stated the following regarding workers and their recruiting:
"'The decree demanded from Berlin regarding new coercion to be applied was turned down, and measures which would cause disquiet would have to be avoided. The forcible transport of people had every reason against it.'" Does that conception reflect the true views of the Governor General?
A I was not present during that conference, so I didn't hear that utterance by the Governor General, but it does tally with those instructions and principles which the Governor General has always given to me and which I have always had carried out.
Q Were you present during a conference on the 14 January 1944? It was a conference with the Secretary of State Dr. Buehler, Dr. Koppe and several others. I quote from it:
"The Governor General turned against measures under which police forces were to be used for the carrying out of such measures. Such a task was not to go to the police." police in connection with the recruiting of workers?
A That wasn't the only question. The deputy of Commissioner Sauckel was often attacked by him during public meetings, official meetings, when he was talking about raids for the recruiting of workers; but I must state that Sauckel always stated that he had given instructions for these raids for the rounding up of workers.
dated the 25th of January 1943. He asked you whether you yourself regarded yourself as a war criminal. I shall now put to you another passage from that very conference, during which you yourself were present. I quote from page 7 of that entry in the diary:
"The Governor General stated: 'Secretary of State Krueger, you know that orders of the Reich Fuehrer SS can only be carried out by you when you have heard me first. This was omitted in this particular instance. I wish to express my regret that you have carried out an order from the Reichs Fuehrer without informing me of the orders of the Fuehrer first. According to that order from the Fuehrer, orders of the Reichs Fuehrer SS can only be carried out by the Governor General here if I have previously stated my agreement. I hope that this is the last time that that has been omitted, because I don't want to better the Fuehrer in every single such case."
I shall skip a few sentences and continue to quote:
"It is impossible that we can disregard Fuehrer orders, and it is out of the question that in the sphere of police and security direct orders from the Reichs Fuehrer are obeyed while the man is left out who has been appointed here by the Fuehrer. Otherwise I should be completely superfluous. and the higher SS Police Leader Krueger there were very frequently such arguments, and that the Governor General terminated these discussions and arguments by asking for cooperation, so that some sort of administration in this sphere could be made possible?
bread and butter. U.S.S.R. Exhibit 335, the Rules for Court Martial Procedures, dated October 1943. I now ask you what the security situation was in the Government General at that time,and would it have been possible at all at that time to carry out normal criminal procedures?
THE PRESIDENT: Doctor Seidl, hasn't that already been dealt with fully in his examination in chief?
DR. SEIDL: In that case I shall forego having this question answered. I shall withdraw the question and now ask one last question which refers to art treasures. BY DR. SEIDL: found in the upper Silesian theatre were taken to the last official residence of the Governor General at Neuhaus, to be safeguarded, and that the Governor General had given you instructions to prepare a list of these articles and send it to Minister Lammers? fer of twenty of the most outstanding art treasures from the property of the Polish State. The report was dictated and referred to Minister Lammers. I was present when it was dictated and I took that report personally to Secretary of State Kritzinger in Berlin. It was stated therein that these art treasures, so as to save them from the Russians, had been taken from Seichau to Schliersee. These art treasures were in the official residence of the Governor General.
DR. SEIDL: In that case I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. SEIDL: I have now completed the examination of witnesses, but since the document books have not yet been found, I would like to suggest that at some later stage, perhaps after the case of Frick, I could submit the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, how many books are you presenting?
DR. SEIDL: A total of five volumes, but I myself, have not received them yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the Tribunal approved the documents in five volumes?
DR. SEIDL: They are almost entirely documents which have already been submitted to the Prosecution and an agreement has been reached with the Prosecution regarding the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, we need not wait now for the document books. The document books will be considered by the Tribunal when they are put in and then, if you have anything in particular you want to say upon them in explanation, you may do so.
DR. SEIDL: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: No doubt you will comment upon them in your final speech. You say that they are mostly documents which have already been put in, and,therefore, it would not be necessary to make any preliminary comment upon them. You will be able to deal, with them in your final speech.
DR. SEIDL: Oh, but I should have liked to quote a few passages during my submission of evidence, since this is necessary to establish the connection and since it would be impossible to do all that during my final speech; but I do not think that a great deal of time will be lost through that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr.Seidl, it would not be useful to the Tribunal for you to make a commentary upon the documents at a later stage, when your witnesses have been finished and some other defendant's witness has been interpolated; therefore, the Tribunal thinks it would be much better and much more convenient to the Tribunal if you defer your comments on the documents until your final speech.
Well, Dr. Seidl, as I understand, you have two books which are before us now. Three is it?
DR. SEIDL: There is a total of five books. The other three do not appear to have been bound.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you say that most of the documents in them are documents which are already in evidence.
DR. SEIDL: There is a diary of defendant Dr. Frank. It has been submitted. It contains forty-two volumes, but the point is the Prosecution has only used those parts which appeared suitable to them. In my opinion, it is, therefore, necessary that during the submission of evidence some sort of connection is established. Also, there are other documents in the document book which should be read in extract before this Tribunal, but I shall, of course, limit myself to the absolutely necessary passages when I read the documents. If I may, I should like to suggest to the Tribunal that the matter be treated as it was in the case of the defendant Ribbentrop. So that I will submit the documents to the Tribunal as exhibits, such as several speeches by defendant Frank, such as the publication of laws, and there are two affidavits, and I do believe that somehow I should be able to define my attitude during the submission of evidence;
and, once more, individual documents will have to be given an exhibit number Up to now only one document has been submitted on behalf of the defendant Frank, and that is the affidavit of the witness Dr. Buehler, but I have the intention of submitting a number of other documents for the notice of the Tribunal, and the exhibits, and I merely suggest putting that back since the Tribunal has not yet received the document books.
THE PRESIDENT: When will these other books be ready, Dr Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: I was told that they would be completed by this evening.
THE PRESIDENT: How long do you think you will take in dealing with these books?
DR. SEIDL: I think that two hours will be enough.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal would like you to deal with you documents now, is so far as they are documents which have already been put evidence, unless you wish to refer to other passages in them. They think that you need only tell us what the documents are and put them in evidence, unless it is very important to you to refer to any particular document. So far as they are new documents, you will, no doubt, offer them in evidence and make such short comments as you think necessary. But the Tribunal hopes that you will be able to finish this afternoon, With reference to the other books that you have, we understand that you have all the documents in German yourself andm therefore, you can refer us to those documents now.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, upon the wish of the Prosecution and also, believe, of the Tribunal, I have reduced the extent of my document books considerably. The first five document books, such as I had them prepared, contained more than eight hundred pages. The new form is considerably shorter and the German text of the new form I have not received. So that I am not in a position right now to say anything about the number of pages and to coordinate my page number of the numbered pages with that of the tranalated books. If I may express one wish it is that we should wait first until the five document books in their new form are available because, otherwise, it is very likely that the pagination of the books and documents would not be coordinate such as it should be.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, we think you better go on with the first three books which you have here and we have them here.
DR. SEIDL: If the Tribunal has the first three volumes, then I would like to begin with them. I begin with volume 1. The first document on page 1 is the decree of the Fuehrer and Reichschancellor concerning the administration of the Occupied Polish Territories, of 12 October 1939. This decree describes in detail the authority of the Governor General and in paragraph 5 and 6, some of the limitations of his authority are included, which already the witnesses Dr. Lammers and Dr. Buehler have pointed out. This document has the number 2537-PS and it will be Exhibit Frank No. 2.
I pass to page 3 of the document book. that is the decree of the Fuehrer concerning the establishment of the State Secretariat for Security Affairs in the Government General, dated 17 May 1942. I quote paragraph 2:
"The State Secretary for security affairs is at the same time the Deputy of the Reichs-Fuehrer SS in his capacity as Reich Commissioner for the strengthening of German nationality."
On page four, I quote paragraph IV: "The Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German police is authorized to give the state Secretary for security affairs direct orders in the fields of security and the strengthening of German nationality."
This document will be Exhibit Frank No. 3. the decree of the Fuehrer 27 May 1942. This decree was the decree about the transfer of authority to the State Secretary for Security. I do not know whether that decree is already bound in that volume. Apparently that decree which was added later has not yet been translated.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date?
DR. SEIDL: 23 June 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: We have one of the 27th of May 1942.
DR. SEIDL: That decree apparently has not yet been translated. it was added later and I will put it in a document book later. It will be Exhibit Frank No. 4.
In paragraph 1 of that decree, we find "The province of Police administration in Annex A and B are under the jurisdiction of the State Secretary for Security." In Annex 1 the provinces of authority of the order police are mentioned --- under 17 points---Now, I have to correct that--26 points; and in annex B, in 21 points.
I pass now to document book 1, page 5. That is the decree of the Fuehrer concerning the appiontment of officials and the discontinuance of an official status in the sphere of activity of the Governor General.
of 20 May 1942.
"The Governor General's sphere of activity does not, in the sense of this decree, include officials belonging to the sphere of the SS Reichsfuehrer and the Chief of the German Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior and to the customs control." Secutity Police and the Security Service, of July ----
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I suggest that an exhibit number be given as we go along so we can follow better and later on have some sequence. Dr. Seidl says he goes through the last one and this one has not yet been given any exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: The last one was Frank No 5, wasn't it?
MR. DODD: Frank No 5 was the 27th of May 1942. We didn't know that; we didn't get the number. I am sorry.
THE PRESIDENT: It may not have been stated but I took it down as that myself. Will you take care to state each time, Dr. Seidl, what the exhibit number is that you are giving. You are dealing now with the letter of the 31st of July 1941.
DR. SEIDL: Yes. This letter has a USA number; that is 509.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Wait a minute, Perhaps I made a mistake. Yes, Mr. Dodd, I think I made a mistake, The reason why Dr. Seidl didn't give a number was because it was already in evidence as USA 305. I made a mistake. It wasn't Frank No 5. He only got to Frank no. 4. The next one is USA 509.
DR. SEIDL: 509. I pass through page 10 of the document book. That is an order directive rather of the high command of the armed forces concerning the Case Barbarssa, USA 135, and I quote paragraph 2:
"A declaration of East Prussia and the General Government to be an operational area of the Army is not yet contemplated. However, on the basis of the unpublished Fuehrer decree of the 19th and 21st of October, 1939, the Commander in Chief of the Army is authorized to enact measures that are necessary for the execution of his military task and for the security of his troops." Fuehrer's Decree on the Plenipotentiary General for Labor Committment, of the 27th of March 1942. I quote No. 4:
"The Plenipotentiary General for Labor Committment will have at his disposal for the performance of his task the authority delegated to me by the Fuehrer for the issuance of instructions to the highest Reich authorities, their subordinated offices, as well as the offices of the party and its formations and affiliated organizations, to the Reich Protector, the Governor General, the military commanders and the chiefs of the civil administrations."
This document becomes Exhibit Frank No. 5.
The next document is on page 12. The Decree by the Fuehrer, concerning a Plenipotentiary General for the Utilization of Labor, of 21 March 1942, from which it can be seen that his authority included the Government General. It receives the Exhibit Frank No. 6.
of the Plenipotentiary Labor for Manpower. It is already USA Exhibit 206.
The document on page 15 is a letter from Professor Dr. Kubijowytsch, Chair man of the Ukrainian Main Committee, to the defendant Dr. Frank. It already has the USA Exhibit No. 178 and I will read only the first sentence from that document, in order to show what the relation was between the defendant Dr. Frank and the author of that letter. I quote:
"Complying with your wish I send you this letter, in which I should like to state critical conditions and the painful happenings, which create especially painful conditions for the Ukrainian population within the General Government."
Then I pass to page 16 of the document book. That is an excerpt from USA Exhibit 275; the report of the SS Brigadefuehrer Stroop about the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto. I quote the second paragraph of II, from which it can be seen that the order came immediately from the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. I quote:
"When the Reichsfuehrer SS visited Warsaw in January 1943, he gave the order to the SS and Police Leader in the District of Warsaw to transfer to Lublin the armament factories and other enterprises of military importance, which were installed within the ghetto, including their personnel and machines." prosecution has submitted during the cross examination of the defendant Kaltenbrunner.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: As far as I understand there is some misunderstanding here. The document he named does not deal with Warsaw, but it is a document of the chief of the SS police of the Galicia district with regard to the Jewish question in Galicia. It does not relate to Warsaw. I would like him to explain or define this.
DR. SEIDL: The document on page 16 is the report by the SS Brigadefuehrer Stroop, which has already been submitted as USA Exhibit 275. It is a report by SS Fuehrer Katzmann, which apparently the Russian Prosecutor means, concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Galicia. That is on page 17 of the document book. That is on the next page. Apparently it has been overlooked in the document book which was prepared for the Russian Prosecution; it was overlooked to put that page 16 in. the affidavit by SS Brigadefuehrer Stroop, which during the cross examination of the Defendant Dr. Kaltenbrunner, under No. USA 804, has been submitted. That affidavit has the number 3481-PS. I could not include that affidavit in the document book because that affidavit was submitted by the Prosecution only at a time when I had sent the document book to be translated. submitted during the cross examination of Dr. Kaltenbrunner. That is the affidavit by Karl Kaleske. That affidavit has the number USA 803, 3840-PS. That would be page 16B of the document book. and which deals with the solution of the Jewish question in G alicia. It is on page 17 of the document bock. That report has the number USA 277 and the L number 18. I quote pages 4 and 5:
"After it had been found in more and more cases that Jews had succeeded in making themselves indispensable to their employers by providing them with good in scarce supply, it was considered necessary to introduce really draconic measures."
I pass to paragraph 2 and quote:
"Since the administration was not in a position and showed itself too weak to master this chaos, the SS and Police Leader simply took over the entire disposition of labor for Jews.
The Jewish labor agencies which were manned by hundreds of Jews were dissolved. All certificates of labor given by firms or administrative offices were declared invalid, and the cards given to the Jews by the labor agencies were revalidated by the police offices by stamping them."
I pass to page 19 of the document book. That deals with the letter of the Reichminster and Chief of the Reich Chancellory to the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police Himmler, of the 17th of April 1943. That document has the number 2220-PS and the Exhibit No. USA 175. I quote:
"In our conference of 27 March of this year we had agreed that written memoranda should be worked out about conditions in the General Government, on which our intended mutual report to the Fuehrer could be based. The material compiled for this purpose by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger was submitted to you immediately.
Based on this material, I have had a report prepared which sums up the most important points of this material, subdivides them clearly, and culminates in an exposition of the measures to be taken.
"The report has been checked together with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger and has his complete concurrence. I am submitting a part of it to you herewith." End of quotation.
It is signed "Dr. Lammers."
I pass to page 20 of the document book. I quote:
"Secret.
"Concerning conditions in the General Government.
"The German administration in the General Government has to fulfill the following tasks:
"First, to increase agricultural production and seize as much of it as possible for the purpose of securing food for the German people, to allot sufficient rations to the native population occupied with work essential to the war effort, and to carry off the rest for the armed forces and the homeland."
I leave out the following points and pass to the letter "B", where Krueger or his assistant criticized the measures of the General Government:
"German administration in the General Government has failed extensively with respect to the tasks listed under 'A'. Even if a relatively high percentage, namely over 90 percent, of the delivery quota of agricultural products for the armed forces and the homeland was successfully met in the year 1942, and if the labor procurement requirements of the homeland were generally satisfied, still on the other hand two things must be made clear: First, these accomplishments were achieved for the first time in the year 1942. Before that, for example, only 40,000 tons of bread grain had been delivered for the armed forces. Secondly, and above all, one had failed to create for the achievement of such performances those prerequisites of an organizational, economic, and political character which are indispensable, if such performances are not to lead to a shock to the entire situation from which chaotic conditions could eventually come about in every respect.
This failure of the German administration can be explained for one thing by the system of the German administrative and governmental acticity in the General Government as represented by the Governor General, and secondly by the misguided principles of policy in all thos questions which were decisive for conditions in the General Government.
"First: The spirit of the German administration in the General Government. From the beginning it has been the endeavor of the Governor General to create a state organization out of the General Government which was to lead its own existence in complete independence of the Reich."
Then I pass to page 22 of the report, No. 3, and I quote:
"Thirdly, the treatment of the native population can only be led in the nigh direction on the basis of a clean and orderly administrative and economic leadership. Only such a foundation permits that the native population be handled strictly and if necessary even severely, on the one side, and on the other side that one may net generously with them and cause a certain amount of satisfaction in the population by certain liberties, especially in the cultural field.
Without such a foundation severity strengthens the resistance movement, and meeting the population halfway only undermines the German reputation. The above-mentioned facts prove that this foundation is lacking. Instead of trying to create this foundation, the Governor general inaugurates a policy of encouraging the individual cultural life of the Polish population, which in itself is already overshooting the goal, but which under the existing conditions, and not the least in connection with our military situation during the past winter, can only be interpreted as weakness and must achieve the opposite of the aim intended.
"The cases are numerous in which the German administration puts the requirements of the racial Germans in the General Government in the background in favor of the interests of the Poles and Ruthenians, in their endeavor to win the latter over to them. The opinion was advanced that racial Germans settled somewhere else were not to be located immediately as settlers, but for the duration of the war were only to be employed as farm workers. Legal foundation fo expropriation of Polish property have not been created up until now. Bad treatment of racial Germans by their Polish employers has not been stopped. German citizens and racial German patients were allowed to be treated in Polish hospitals by Polish physicians, badly and at great expense. In German spas in the General Government the sheltering of children of German citizenship from territories which were threatened with bombing and of Stalinggrad fighters ran into difficulties, while foreigners took convalescent vacations there, and so on. The big plans for resettlement in the Lubin district for the benefit of racial Germans could have been carried out with less friction if the Reich Commissioner for the strengthening of Germandom had found the desirable cooperation and assistance of the administration."
I pass to page 24 and quote, under C:
"The administrative system, represented by the Governor General personally, and the actual failure of the general German administration in the most various fields of dicisive importance, did not only shake the confidence and the will to work of the native population, but has also brought about the result that the Poles, who have been socially divided and constantly dis united throughout their history, have come together in a united national body through their hostility to the Germans. In a world of pretense, the real foundations are lacking on which alone those achievements which the Reich requires from the General Government, and these aims which it must see realized in the latter, can be brought about and fulfilled in the long run. The non-fulfilment of the tasks given to the general administration naturally had to lead, as happened, for example, in the field of the strengthening of German ways and characteristics, that other administrative bodies, for instance Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Volkstum, and the Police, took over these tasks."
Now I pass to page 27 of the document book. That is the repearedly mentioned report by the Governor General to the Fuehrer od the 19th of June 1943 The document has the number 437-PS, USA Exhibit 610. Of this document the Prosecution has so far quoted only page 10 and 11, and these are the points in the memorandum by the Governor General which have been severely criticized
THE PRESIDENT: Are you speaking now of the report which begins on page 20?
DR. SEIDL: I mean the report which begins on page 27. We have already finished the report which begins on page 20.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what number did you give to that on page 20?
DR. SEIDL: The report on page 20 is an integral part of the letter which begins on page 19, and which already has the USA number 175.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: Now I come to the document on page 27. That is a memorandum which has already been mentioned by various witnesses, and was submitted under No. 610 by the Prosecution. Of this report, the Prosecution has only submitted pages 10 and 11, that is page 36 and 37 of the document book, that is to say, only those passages in the report which were considered as perpetrations of the police, and against which perpetrations the Governor General complained to the Fuehrer.
page 27 of the report, which is page 53 of the document book, and I quote under No. 2:
"The almost complete discontinuation of the posibilities for participation in the cultural field has led, down to the lowest classes of the Polish people, to serious discontent. The Polish middle and upper classes are extremely hungry for education. Experience shows that the possibility of a cultural occupation would at the same time be connected with a diversion from the political questions of the day. German propaganda frequently comes across the objection, brought up by the poles, that the restriction of cultural activity enforced by the German authorities does not only show no difference towards the Bolshevist lack of culture, but also shows that it even remains below the amount of cultural activity, allowed among Soviet citizen. the same basis. Its well considered purposes are without doubt the decline * of the Polish educational standart. The realization of this goal appears, considering the necessities of war, not always beneficial to the German interests. With the duration of the war the German interest in the mobilization of able foreign replacements increases in the various fields of knowledge. However mere important is the fact that the crippling of the school system and the extensive hampering of cultural activities adds in rising proportions to the promotion of a Polish "National Community" (Volksgemeinschaft) conspiring against Germany, under the leadership of the intelligentsia. What was not possible during the course of Polish history, what even could not be done during the first year of the German administration, namely the achievment of a goal, which was aimed at a common purpose and a national community holding together from within for better and for worse, threatens now to become slowly but surely reality because of German measures. The German leadership cannot pass this process of alliance of individual Polish classes without noticing it in the face of the growing defensive power of the Poles.
The German leadership should promote class distinctions by certain cultural concessions and if possible to play one class against the other. vitable pressure of the circumstances, observed, have created, further by clever Bolshevist agitation, a tremendous feeling of hate in wide circles. The workers won thus, come often with a deep resolution for positive resistance, aven active sabotage. An improvement of the recruiting methods in connection with the continuation of the attempts to stop still present abuses in the treatment of Polish workers in the Reich, finally a care even if it is only meager, for the family members left behind, would cause a rise in morale, which would convert itself into an increased desire to work, and increased production for the German interest. the removal of the Polish element from all important positions. The available amount of German help had always been quantitatively and qualitatively insufficient. Besides, during the past year a considerable delivery of German personnel had to take place under pressure of the replacement needs of the armed forces.
Previously, non-German help had to be called in to a greater extent. By a considerable change in the treatment of the poles, the administration could, by use of all necessary precaution, use the Polish element more for collaboration, without which the administration considering the present amount of personnel, not to speak of future transfers, cannot be kept working. The increased participation of Poles would help further to raise the moral in itself. "Besides the positive change put down in these proposals, a number of methods, observed previously in the treatment of Poles, need a change or even must be completely abandoned at least for the duration of the fighting in Europe. (1) I have already shown in special reports that confiscation and evacuation of arable land have caused great and irrepairable damages for the agricultural production. Not less great is the damage to morale connected naturally with such actions. Already the seizure of a great part of the Polish large estates has embittered the naturally anti-Bolshevistically inclined strata of the population, hit by it. But their opposing attitude does not count nearly so much, because of their numerically small strength and their complete segregation from the mass of the people, as the position of the mess of the population consisting mainly of small farmers. by Military-political reasons - has already had an unfavorable effect on the mentality and attitude of many farmers. At any rate, this evacuation has been kept within certain territorial limits. It has been carried out carefully prepared by the governmental offices, having avoided all unnecessary harshness. The evacuation of Polish farmers from the LUBLIN district, held necessary by the Reich This happened during the winter 1942/43, when great losses ocurred especially among members of the last group.