THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other defense counsel wish to ask any other questions?
DR. LUEDINGHAUSEN: Dr. Luedinghausen, counsel for von Neurath, BY DR. LUEDINGHAUSEN: Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia? When was that? Frank or to the Reich Proectorate. Neurath as Reich Protector?
Q What kind of work did you have to do as Undersecretary?
Q Was the Police and SS subordinate to you?
Q To whom were they subordinate?
Q What was the position of State Secretary Frank to von Neurath? What was the position of State Secretary Frank in relation to von Neurath?
A You mean officially? Frank's position became, the more impossible it became for von Neurath. State Secretary Frank, and later Minister Frank, was backed up by the entire power of SS and the Police and he also had the backing of Hitler.
Q From whom did Frank get his orders?
AAccording to my knowledge, from Himmler: however, I witnessed once or twice that he was called, directly by Hitler about, his directives.
Q And that happened by sidetracking von Neurath? could act without having the approval of von Neurath?
rate he did so. toward the Czech people; were von Neuratch and Frank of one opinion concerning the policy toward the Czech people?
A No. Von Neurath could not do anything, being confronted with the power of Himmler and Hitler.
Q What was the policy of von Neurath himself? much about these things with von Neurath. He hoped and believed, on the basis of the decree of the 15th of March, to achieve a reasonable and peaceful cooperation between Germans and Czechs in the Protectorate.
Q But due to the increasing power of Frank, that failed, didn't it? disturbances broke out among the students in Prague? Neurath and Frank flow to Berlin? day? I do not remember whether he came alone.
Q So you wouldn't know if von Neurath returned with him? the student disturbances and what the consequences were? executed and the schools were closed.
Q Do you know whether that was on the order of Hitler? Catholic and Protestant church?
the churches as long as I was there. the Arch-Bishop of Prague until the latter's death?
A No, I don't knew anything about that. Neurath, with his approval or upon his orders, art treasures of any kind, pictures, monuments, sculptures, libraries, or such, from State or private property, had been confiscated and had been brought out of the country?
A Upon his orders, such things certainly have never happened. Whether he approved at any specific time, I do not know but I do not believe so. I remember one incident in the Maltese (?) Palace, where some Reichoffice -and I don't remember today which it was -- removed art. Here, von Neurath immediately did everything in order to repair the damage. the Protectorate and Germany, was not carried out for a long time, upon orders of von Neurath?
A Yes. I know about that definitely; however, I have to add that also State Secretary Frank at that time was against that customs union, because just as von Neurath, he believed that the economy of the Protectorate would experience difficulties and damage from the stronger economy of Germany. deportation of workers?
A I am convinced that did not happen. Workers were recruited but in a definitely regular manner. That happened already while I was still in the Protectorate. for travel to be dependent upon his official approval in or out of the Protectorate?
A Whether or not von Neurath did it, I do not know. At any rate, it was necessary to get approval.
THE PRESIDENT: Try to keep it a bit slower and try to go a little bit slower. This light is continually coming on.
Q Do you know anything about the closing of middle schools?
Q What do you remember about them? a necessary consequence, of the closing of colleges. There had been too many little schools in the Protectorate. Not all of them were closed. Specialist schools, trade schools, were approved and probably also reestablished. intended Germanization of Czechoslovakia, intended by Himmler? about that whole affair, and that memorandum was intended to counteract those plans by Himmler of a forced Germanization. Von Neurath was of the opinion, as he told me frequently, that such tendencies and intentions of Germanization were not desirable in the interest of the Protectorate.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross examine?
BY MR. DODD: Party?
Q And did you achieve office in any of its affiliated organizations?
Q Any other honors? time, I was charged with legal affairs of the Gau Saxonia.
Q Weren't you also an Oberbannfuehrer in the H. J.,the Hitler Jugund? Fuehrer Baldur von Schirach. But that was purely a matter of politeness which had no consequences.
I Would like to say one more thing. Since you speak of party offices, as it was said before, in consequence of my position as Governor in Cracow, from January 1944 until the end, that is, the middle of January 1945, I wan district leader. not?
Q Weren't you in some way associated with Reinhard Heydrich when you were in Prague?
A No. I was with Heydrich until the middle of March 1942. Then, as was generally known, on account of the tendencies of Heydrich, I left the Protectorate, and as a man of forty-five I went into the army.
Q What position did you occupy with relation to Heydrich?
A The same as under von Neurath; I was Understate Secretary.
Q Let me put it to you this way; You told us that you never heard of Maidanek, the concentration camp?
Q And you never heard of Auschwitz?
Q Had you heard of an installation known as Lublin?
A Of Lublin? Not of the concentration camp but of the City of Lublin, of course.
Q Did you know of a concentration camp by the name of Lublin? name?
MR. DODD: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions?
DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is your next witness?
DR. SEIDL: The next witness would to the former secretary of the Governor General Kraffczyk.
However, If I 4.30?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now (A recess was taken until Tuesday, April 23.)
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THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for Hans Frank): Mr. President, the witness Strube, chief of the Central Department and in charge of food in the Government General, will not be needed by me, and with the permission of the Tribunal, I am now calling witness Dr. Joseph Buehler.
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JOSEPH BUEHLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeat the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, since when do you know defendant Dr. Hans Frank, and what were the positions in which you worked under him? worked with him since the end of March,933. I have served under him in his capacity as Minister of Justice in Bavaria, and later as Reich Commissioner for Justice, and later still in his capacity as Minister. Beginning at tge end of September 1939 Frank employed me in the Government General. in the Government of the Government General.
Q Were you yourself a member of the Party?
organizations of the Party, that is to say, the SA or the SS?
A I have never exercised any functions within the Party. I was never a member of the SA or the SS. te were the chief of the government in the Government General. Will you please tell me what the relations between the Government on one side and the Higher SS and Police Leader on the other side were?
jurisdiction did not touch upon the police matters, matters relating be the Party or military matters in the Government General. Police Leader who was attached to him by the Chief of the German Police and SS, that being Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, were right from the beginning, disturbed by very deep differences of opinion. These differences of opinion concerned both the conception regarding the task and position of the police in an orderly State system, as well as, in particular, the position and tasks of the police in the Government General. must be the servant and the organ for the executive of the State, and that, according to that view, he and the State Departments would be giving orders to the police. From this arrangement it would arise that the Police would simultaneously have to have its tasks and influence limited to some extent. represented the view that the police would have executive tasks originating from the State, but that even in the carrying out of these tasks it would not have to be bound to the instructions coming from administrative sources. He considered that here one was concerned with actual police questions and tasks, the decisions for which could not be made by administrative sources who were not suited for making them.
Regarding the power to give orders to police, it was Krueger's view that because of the power and the type of activity of the police in all occupied territories, such orders could only come centrally from Berlin, and that orders in the Government General could only exclusively come through him.
it was Krueger's opinion that the views of the Governor General regarding the limitarions of the sphere became superfluous, simply because he, as Higher SS and Police leader, was simultaneously the deputy of the Reichsfuehrer SS in his capacity as Reich Commissioner for the strengthening of German nationalism. was Krueger's view that during work in a foreign theater, the point of view of the police would have to be put into first place. He considered that everything could be achieved and everything could be prevented by means of the police system. This overestimate of the powers of the police sector led, for instance, to the fact that during later argument regarding respective spheres of influence which took place between the police and the administration, the tasks listed for the police included such matters as foreign national problems.
Q Do you know that as early as '39 the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler issued an interim decree, according to which all police matters were his own affair or the affair of his Higher SS and Police leader? taken by the police. I did not see a decree of that type, but I can say this upon this matter: The police, in the Government General, acted exactly as I described it before. Secretariat of State for the Security System. Who brought about the creation of that institution and what position did the Governor General hold in that connection? What views did he have? against the person of the Governor General. The Secretariat for the Security System was considered by the police to be an important step in the fight for the removal of the Governor General. The matters contained in that decree hadn't been transferred to the police at that instant, or at least the majority of them, not as late as that.
On the contrary, the true development of events had started during the time which preceded the decree, and had been adapted to the contents of the decree. June 3, 1942, all spheres of influence and tasks of police were listed which were to be transferred to that Secretary of State. This was contained in Appendix A, "Spheres for the Order Police", and Appendix B, "Tasks for the Security Police." Were these police matters at that time exclusively and completely transferred to the Secretary of State?
A The Administration didn't like giving up these affairs, that is to say, of course, where the police hadn't already got hold of them before, and in such cases they were only given up hesitatingly. of the so-called administrative police, aren't you?
A Yes. That is to say, police communication, hygiene police, food police, and such matters as that. that the entire police system, security police, police, SD, and order police, in other words, was coordinated under the central department either by Himmler himself or through the RSHA and higher police leaders. picture, but I think it must have happened, too, that the security police received direct orders from Berlin, without their going through Krueger. That is possible.
Q And now another question: Is it correct that the resettlement was carried out in the Government General through Himmler in his capacity of Reich Commissioner for the Stren gthening of German Nationalism? and even if it was carried out decently, did always cause disquiet among the population. We had no use for that in the Govern ment General, particularly since these resettlements always called a falling off of agricultural production.
For that reason, the Governor General and the Government did not undertake resettlement during wartime. As far as such resettlement was carried out, it was exclusively ordered by the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Nationalism. resettlement policy, had repeated serious arguments with the Reichsfuehrer SS and Krueger and Globotchnik?
A That is correct, yes. The intention of preventing such resettlement did always lead to arguments and friction between the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Governor General.
Q The defendant Dr. Frank has been accused of carrying out confiscations of private property and industry. What was the basic attitude of the Governor General regarding such problems? tiary for the Four-Year Plan. They were applicable to the Occupied Eastern Territories, and to the Government General as far as confiscation of private property or any other property. the creation of the Central Trustee Deputies was mentioned, which was to come under the Central Administration Department in Berlin. The Governor General should be administered in Berlin, and therefore he opposed the fact that the Trustee Deputies were to deal with matters relating to property in the Government General. Without being stopped by the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, he created rules referring to confiscations in the Government General, and he created a special Trusted Department for the Government General. That Trustee Department was headed by an experienced higher civil servant from the Ministry of Economy. ment General and which had been the property of the Polish State before? program, was taken over by the military sector, that is to say, the Inspector for Armament, which was first of all subordinated to the OKW and later on, Minister Speer. to the Polish State, they were coordinated in a limited company by the Governor General, and they were separately administered as property of the Government General. The chief shareholder in this corporation was the State in the Government General, and the state budget. Reich budget?
Q The Prosecution, under No. USA-281, have submitted extracts from Frank's diary in evidence. They refer to a conference regarding Jewish problems.
In that connection, amongst others, Frank stated:
"My basic expectation regarding the Jews willbe that they must disappear. Negotiations for that purpose have been started by me and they must be deported to the East. The question will be discussed in a large meeting in Berlin in January, to which I shall send Secretary of State, Dr. Buehler. The conference is to take place in the RSHA in the offices of Heydrich. At any rate, a large scale Jewish trek will begin."
I now ask you: Did the Governor General send you to Berlin for that conference, and if so, what was the subject of the conference?
A Yes, I was sent to the conference. It subject -- Jewish problem. May I first of all say that Jewish questions in the Government-General, right from the beginning, were considered a part of the sphere of influence of the Higher SS and police leaders and handled in that manner. As far as the administration of the state in dealing with Jewish matters, this was done under the sufferance and supervision of the police.
In the course of the years of 1940 and '41 an incredible mass of people, mostly Jews, and in spite of the objections and protests of the Governor General and his administration, were led into the Government General. This completely unsuspected and unprepared and undesirable pushing into our territory of Jews from other territories put the administration of the Government General into an extremely difficult situation. welfare, the combatting of epidemics for instance, nearly went or certainly went beyond the capacity of our territory. The particularly serious point was the spreading of typhoid not only in the ghett s but also amongst the Polish population and the Germans in the Government General. It appeared as if that epidemic would become apparent even in the Reich and on the eastern front, originating from the Government General.
At that moment we received Heydrich's invitation to the Governor General. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941 but it was frequently cancelled and I think it did take place in February 1942. Heydrich for an interview and he received me in that connection. On that occasion, amongst other things, I particularly referred to the catastrophic conditions as a result of the independent action regarding the bringing in of Jews into the Government General. He replied to me that for that reason particularly he had invited the Government General to that Conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received the task from the Fuehrer to concentrate all Jews in Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, Russia. I asked him whether this meant that further of arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease and I said that these hundreds of thou sands of Jews who had arrived in the Government General without permission of the Governor General, would be taken away once more.
Heydrich promised me both. Heydrich said furthermore, that the Fuehrer had given an order that the town in the protectorate of Theresienstadt should become a reservation in which old and sick Jews and weak Jews who could not stand up to the strains of resettlement were to be accomodated in the future. I gathered fro that the certain impression that this resettlement of Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation of the German People was to be carried out under normal conditions. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by police authorities. officers have exclusive rights to deal with this matter. ties as Secretary of State in the Government General? first indications which I had. They referred to the concentration camp at Maidanek. I did not know that this camp, which was just outside Lublin, was a concentration camp. It had been installed as an economic firm of the Reich fuehrer SS I think in 1941. Governor Zoerner came to visit me at that time and he told me that he had opposed the creation of that camp when when he talked to Globotchnik, since it would mean a danger to the electric current supplies of the town and since there were certain objections on the part of the police as well. I informed the Governor General of this and he in turn sent for Globotchnik. Globotchnik stated that certain workshops were going to be erected or had been erected on that site by him and he mentioned workshops making furs but he also mentioned a building yard which was situated there. were altered. At any rate Globotschnik stated that by order from Himmler he had installed these workshops. until the building police had clarified their side of the matter and until plans had been submitted to the officers of the state, in other words until all rules had been complied with which apply to buildings which are to be erected.
Globotschnik never submitted these plans and regarding the things which took place in the camp no concrete information ever came through and it has surprised the Governor General just as much as it surprised me when the press published this news regarding Maidanek.
Q Witness, the Prosecution have submitted a document 437-PS, U.S.A. 610, which is a memorandum from the Governor General, addressed to the Fueh rer, dated 19 June, 1943. I think you yourself drafted that memorandum. On page 35 a report of the commander of the Security Police is mentioned, which is quoted verbatim. This report of the Security Police mentions the name Maidanek. bably identical with that camp near Lublin?
A No. I assumed that like Auschwitz it was situated outside of the government general because the govenor general had repeatedly told the police and the higher SS and police leader that he did not wish to have concentration camps in the government general. general come?
A I don't know because I didn't know of the existence of the camps. In August, on the occasion of a visit, I heard of the reception camp at Pruszkow; that is where we heard about the administration of camps. At that time I brought some instruction from Himmler to the camp commandant, an instruction which stated that the transport of the inhabitants of Warsaw who were to be removed from the town and taken to concentration camps was to cease forthwith.
Q Was that after the uprising in Warsaw?
A It was during it; it must have been on or about the 18th or 19th of August 1944. The camp commandant. whose name I have forgotten, told me at the time that he did not know an order of that type and that he had been merely told that he could merely take orders from the chief of concentration camps. Ukranian, or a Jew to a concentration camp? at Warsaw who had been taken away by the security police against their will while he was absent?
A This Jewish workers' colony is known to me because I lived in that castle. I also know that the governor general always took care that his colony of workers be retained. And the chief of the Chancellory of the Government General, Ministerialrat Keit, once told me that this group of Jewish workers had been taken away by force at the time when the governor general was absent.
Q I now come to the so-called A-B action. What were the circumstances which caused this action to be introduced? left the government building where I was working, having been ordered to visit the governor general in the castle. I think I am right when I remember that Minister Seyss-Inquart had also been ordered to come along with me. On arrival we met the governor general together with several gentlemen from the police.
The governor general stated that according to the opinion of the police a extraordinary appeasing action appeared necessary. The security situation, as far as I remember, at that time was this: serted wooded country, and they were causing disquiet among the population, and I think they were training certain militant young Poles. At that time, that is May 1940, the Polish people had recovered from the shock which they suffered under the sudden defeat in 1939, and with little caution and without experience there began a resistance movement among all parts of the population. This picture is clearly in my recollection due to descriptions given by the police on that and some other occasions.
Q May I interrupt you and may I quote from Frank's diary, an entry of May 16, 1940. I quote "The genral war situation forces us to regard the security position in the government general with great care.
From a number of symptoms and actions one can drawt the conclusion that a well-organized wave of resistance among the Poles in the country is beginning, and that we atand immediately before the outbreak of certain forceful events. Thousands of Poles are supposed to have gotten together secretly, have been armed, and are being caused to carry out acts of force of all sorts. "Then the governor general qupted some examples of some recent days, as for instance, an uprising in certain villages on the major Kubala in the district of Radom, not unlike a war. The murdering of German families; the murdering of the mayor of the town of Krasienka; and illegel pamphlets are being distributed and even posted everywhere, and there can therefore be no doubt that the security position is extremely serious."
Did the governor general express himself in that manner at the time? situation for some time, but the details of what he had said I can not now recollect.
Q What happened? succeeded in taking great pains to issue courts martial regulations, and a procedure to the police which he forced upon them and which had to be observed in the case of arrests or whenever they dealt with suspicious persons.
Furthermore, the police had to allow it that the governor general could review the sentences of courts martials by means of a reprieve commission, and that the execution of sentences could only take place after the sentences had been confirmed by the governor general. "The statements of the governor general during the conference in the middle of May 1940 left me worrying that the police on these occasions might have the possibility--or shall we say--yes, possibility, of overlooking these instructions regarding courts martials and reprieve commissions, and they might dodge them. For that reason after the governor general had finished his statement I asked him for permission to speak. First of all the governor General cut me short and stated that he wanted to dictate something quickly to the stenographer, something which should go straight into the typewriter and then later on brought in in its final version. Subsequently the governor general dictated some authority or some such document, and I remember with one-hundred percent certa inty that after he had finished dictating the court reporter and I think Streckenbach left the room. I am saying this first because this is the explanation for the fact that everthing that happened afterward is not contained in the record, in the minutes, since the person preparing the record was no longer present in the room. "At any rate, I expressed my worries, saying that the requirements mentioned in the courts-martial procedure should be observed under all circumstances. I am not claiming any particular merit in this connection, because if I hadn't done it then this objection would have been raised, I am convinced, by Minister Seyss-Inquart, or the governor general personally would have realized the danger which his intentions might have brought about for this sector. At any rate, on my objection and without any debate the governor general stated at once that of course arrests and shootings could only take place in accordance with the courts-martial procedure, and that sentences of the courtsmartial would have to be investigated by this reprieve commission.
During subsequent times these instructions were obeyed. I assume that it is certain that the reprieve commission did refuse all sentences pronounced by these courts martials and dealt with them.
Q Another entry in Frank's diary, the 12th of July 1940, must bring one to the conclusion that the leaders of the resistance movement were arrested. I quote verbally and literally a statement of the governor general.