Generally, I would like to say that I would not argue about words. It was a wild stormy period, with terrible passions, and in the tempest of the flaming country and of a decisive struggle for life or death such words may easily fall. was shocked about many words which I've said. which deals with a conference which you apparently had in '39 or '40 with an officer, the Supreme Chief of the Administration, Ober-Ost, I will have the document handed to you and ask you to tell me whether the report of that man as it is contained in the document agrees with what you have said, It is on page 1, on the bottom, the second paragraph. That is a shortened summary of a speech.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Frank, what is the number?
THE WITNESS: 297, I believe.
DR. SEIDL: I beg your pardon. On the cover?
THE WITNESS: On the cover it says 244. I will return the document. Would you kindly ask me about the individual contents?
DR. SEIDL: The number is 297, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is USA 297. It is EC-344, 16, 17; is that right?
DR. SEIDL: Yes. BY DR. SEIDL: the Central Department had with the Reich Minister Frank on the 3rd of October, 1939, in Posen, the latter presented the task which had been given him by the Fuehrer and the ways in which he intended to administer his area. Therefore, it would be necessary to recruit manpower to be used in the Reich, and so on.
I have just summarized it, Mr. President.
that man? had been spoken. perpetrations by the police and SD were based on the activities of guerrilla bands?
A Bands? One has to say that was the resistance movement which from the first day on was very active and, by supporting our enemies in the war, presented the most difficult problem which I had to cope with during all these years. For this resistance movement was the internal complex for excuses for the police and SS at the occasion of all measures which, from the point of a regular administration, were very regrettable. In fact, that resistance movement, I would not like to call "bands", groups of bandits, because, if a people has been conquered during a war and organizes an active resistance movement, then that is something entirely different; but the methods of the resistance movement departed to a large extent from that framework of a heroic struggle of resistance.
circumstances. German officials were shot; trains were derailed; dairies were destroyed; and all measures which would have led to improvement of conditions in the coutry were undermined systematically. day almost during the entire period of my activity, one has to see the events in that country. That is all that I could say in that connection now.
Q. Wilness, in the year 1944 under General Bor a revolt broke out in Warsaw. What was the part of the administration of the Government General? What was your part in the conquering of that revolt?
A. That revolt broke out when the Russian Army had approached to about 30 kilometers on the eastern back of the Vistula. It was a sort of combined operation, and, as it seems to me, also a national Polish operation, as the Poles at that last moment wanted to carry out the liberation of their capital on their own and did not want to owe it to the Soviet Russians. They probably were thinking of how in Paris at the last moment the Resistance Movement, even before the Allies had approached, had carried out the liberation of the city.
The operation was a military one. As Supreme 'Commander of the German troops which had to fight the revolt, I believe SS General von dem Bach-Zelews was appointed. The civilian administration, therefore, did not have any part in these struggles. The part of the civilian administration begins after the capitulation of General Bor when the most atrocious orders of vengeance came from the Reich.
A.letter flew upon my table one day in which Hitler demanded the deportation of the entire population of Warsaw into concentration camps. It took a struggle of three weeks in which I was victorious in order to avert that insanity and to achieve that the population of Warwas which had had no part in the revolt could be distributed over the Government General. the city of Warsaw. Everything which had been rebuilt during several years had burned down during a few weeks. Besides, State Secretary Buehler in order to save time could give us more information about details.
Q. Witness, you are also accused of having suppressed the cultural life of the population of the Government General, especially in the field of Theater, broadcasting, film -- what can you say about that?
A. The Government General offered the same pictures of every occupied country. We do not nave to look far into the country now from this court room in order to see how an occupied country lives.
We had broadcasting in the Polish language under German supervision. We had a Polish press which was supervised by Germans, and we had a Polish school system, that is, elementary schools and high schools, in which at the end, 80,000 teachers taught in the service of the Government General. Polish theaters, as much as it was possible, in large cities were reopened, and where German theaters were established, we made sure that there was also a Polish theater at the same time. occasion of the proclamation of the so-called total war, when the German theater was closed in Cracow because all German theaters were closed at that time, that the Polish theaters continued to play. found there in 1939, selected composers and virtuosos and founded the Philharmonic Orchestra of the General Government, which took an important part in the cultural life of Poland. I established a Chopin museum in Cracow, and from all over Europe I collected the last relics of Chopin.
Q. I believe that is sufficient. Witness, you deny, therefore, to have taken any measures which would have been directed to exterminating Polish and Ukrainian culture.
A. Culture cannot be exterminated. Any measures which would be taken wit that intention would be sheer nonsense.
Q. Is it correct that as much as it was in your power you have done everything in order to avoid epidemics and to improve the state of health of the population?
I can say that everything humanly possible was done. mitted an excerpt from a diary which deals with the report about a police conference of the 30th of May 1940, and we find here from pages 33 to 38 the following--
A. (Interposing) Unless the Court orders it, you don't have to read that. Cracow professors. Apparently, if that diary is correct, you have said-
A (Interposing) May I say something about the Cracow professors right away?
On the 7th of November 1939, I came to Cracow. On the 5th of Nov ember 1939 before my arrival, SS and police, as I found out later, called the Cracow professors to a meeting. Then they took the men, dignified, old men among them, and brought them into some concentration camp. I believe it was Oranienburg. I found that report, and against everything which may be found there in my diary, I want to emphasize here under oath that I did not cease in my attempts to get the last one of the professors whom I could reach to be released in March 1940. That is all which I have to say to this with the so-called A.B. Action, that is, with the extraordinary with it, I would like to read to you two entries in the diary. One is of the 16th of May 1940, and here, after describing that extraordinary tension then existin, you have stated the following: and then you said: "Each terror action has to be avoided; in all cases the authority of the Fuehrer and of the Reich has to be in the foreground."
I omit several sentences and quote the end:
"The action will go at first until the 15th of June." Wille, who was the chief of the Main Department Justice, and there you have said literally about the question what should happen to the political criminals which had been arrested during the A.B. Action:
"There is to be a conference with State Secretary Buehler, Obergruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, and Ministerialrat Wille." End of quotation.
What actually happened during that A,B. Action? diary. The situation was extremely tense. Month after month assassinations increased. The general attitude of the rest of the world against all our efforts, to pacify the country which supported the resistance movement had reached an extraordinary measure, and thus it came to those general measures, not only in the Government General but also in other areas; and that was ordered by the Fuehrer. individual actions, and I was successful in that. Besides, I should like to emphasize that I have also directed that I intended to use the right of clemency in each individual case, and for that purpose wanted to see the police and SS verdicts and wanted to have them presented to a committee which I had formed in that connection. I believe that must be found in the diary also.
used at that time was a trememdous mistake. troduced by the SD and SS about the responsibility of the Sippe or family?
A No, on the contrary. When I received the first reports about it, I complained to Reich Minister Lammers about that peculiar idea. Krueger. When was this SS leader recalled and how did it come about? impossible, he founded an SS and police regime and it could not be solved in any other way but that either he or I had to go, I think that at the last moment, by intervention of Kaltenbrunner, if I remember correctly, and of Bach-Zelewski, that peculiar fellow was removed. struggle for power, or is it, rather, correct that there were differences of opinion in basic questions?
A Of course it was a struggle for power. I wanted to establish power in the sense of my memoranda to the Fuehrer, and therefore I had to fight the power by violence. Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe. Were his principal ideas different?
A Yes. I had that impression, and I am thinking of him when I say that even in the SS, especially in the SS, there were many decent people, very sensitive in mat tars of law. Ukrainian police? and order police, and about 5,000 man of Ukrainian police. They also were under the German police chief.
Q Witness, now I come to one of the most important questions.
In 1942, in Berlin, Vienna, Heidelberg, and Munich, you made speeches before large audiences. What was the purpose of these addresses and what were the consequences for you?
A The speeches can be read. It was the last effort that I made to persuade Hitler, by the tremendous resonance of the German people, about the necessity of law. I stated at that time that the Reich could not exist without law, and more in that vein. After I had been under police surveillance for several days in Munich and in places of these speeches, I lost all my Party functions. Since it was a matter of superior policy under the sovereignty of the German Reich, I would not like to make any more statements about it. resignation, and what was the answer? received the same answer, that for foreign political reasons I could not be released. number of quotations which the Prosecution has submitted, but in consideration of the fact that the Prosecution may do that in the course of the cross examination, I forego that and at the time I have no more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions?
Does the Prosecution wish be cross examine? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: to your legal situation and the place you occupied in the Fascist State. Please tell me when you were named Governor of Occupied Poland and who you were directly subordinated to.
A The date is the 26th of October 1939. On that day, the directive about the Governor General was issued.
the 12th of October 1939 you were directly subordinated to Hitler, weren't you?
A I did not get the first part. What was it, please? nation be the post of Governor of Occupied Poland? It was dated the 12th of October 1939. October 1939 the decree came out, and you can find it in the Reichsgesetzblatt. Before that, as Chief of Administration, I was with the military commander. I have explained that already. subordinated to him. Do you remember that? Paragraph 3, Article 1.
A What kind of an order is that? I should like to see it, The chiefs of administration of the occupied territories were all immediately under the Fuehrer.
Yes, I can say for clarification that in Paragraph 3 it says:
"The Governor General is immediately subordinate to me."
But in paragraph 9, it says:
"This decree becomes valid as soon as I have withdrawn the Institution of the Military Administration."
Book V, which you no doubt know. subordinated to?
A What shall I read here? There are several marks here. October. Well, when this order came into force, whom were you subordinated to? Was there any other order changing this state of things?
A There is only one basic decree about the Governor General. That is this one.
Q It means that there was no other fundamental order of Hitler?
Q No, I mean determining the state of administration. Was there any other order? and there you have the decree of the Fuehrer verbatim.
Q Yes, that's right.
AAnd it says also in paragraph 9', "This decree shall be in effect ...." and so on, and that date was the 26th of October.
Q Yes, that is quite right. That means that on the 26th of October, for occupied Poland you were directly subordinated to Hitler, is that right? by whom were you nominated plenipotentiary for the carrying out of the Four-Year Plan in Occupied Poland?
A By Goering.
carrying out of this plan, were you not?
A The story of that mission is very briefly told. The activities of several plenipotentiaries of the Four-Year Plan in the Government General were such that I was greatly concerned about it. Therefore, I approached the Reichsmarshal then and asked him to make me plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. That was later.
Q And that is what happened?
A. That was later.
Q. No, it was in December 1939.
A. December 1939, yes, quite later.
Q. You mean that at the beginning of December 1939 you were his plenipotentiary, were you not?
A. Goering? Well, I was plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan.
Q. Now, maybe you will recall, defendant, the first order regarding the organization of the Administration in occupied Poland. Do you remember that order?
A. Yes. That is here is it not?
Q. Perhaps you recall paragraph 3 of that order.
A. Yes.
Q. It says that the director of the Administration of Occupied Poland war directly subordinate to you and also the High Commander of the SS and of the Police, Does that not prove that ever since the first days of your Governorship you took over the command of the SS, and that means the responsibility for its actions?
A. No. I definitely answer that question with "no", but I would like to make an explanation.
Q. Witness-
THE PRESIDENT: Let him make his explanation.
THE WITNESS: I wanted to make a very short statement. There is an old legal principle which says that nobody can transfer more rights to anybody else than he had himself. What I have stated here was the ideal image which I had before me and how it should h v e been. Everybody has to admit that it is natural and logical that the police should be subordinate to the administrative person. The Fuehrer, who could decide, did not make that decree. I did not have the power and the force to put this decree, which I put in nice words, into effect. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. If I understand you, then, this paragraph 3 was an ideal which you strove to attain but which you did not manage to attain.
Is that not so?
A. I beg your pardon, but I could not understand that question. A littl slower please, and may I have the translation into German a little slower?
Q. Should I repeat the question?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I asked you the following. This statement can be understood in the following way. Paragraph 3 of this order war an ideal which you strove to attain, and which you declared, but which you could not attain. Is that so?
A. Which I could not achieve; and that can be seen by the fact that, of necessity, later, a special State Secretary for Security was attempted as another way out.
Q. And that is what I mean to take up now. Maybe you will recall that in April, 1942, special negotiations took place between you and Himmler. Did these negotiations take place in April of 1942?
A. Yes. Of course, I can not tell you the date offhand, but that was always my intention, I always attempted that.
Q. In order to verify this, I turn to your diary. Perhaps you will recall that as a result of these negotiations an understanding was come to.
A. Yes, an understanding was achieved.
Q. In order to refresh your recollection as to the circumstances, I will give you this volume of your diary so that you may have the text before you.
A. Yes, I am ready.
Q. I would like you to turn to paragraph 2 of this agreement, which says.
THE PRESIDENT: Where can we find this? Is it under the date 14 April 1942?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes; that is quite right.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we have got it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is document USSR-223. It has been translated into English and we will distribute it directly.
THE PRESIDENT:: I think we have it now; we were only trying to find the place.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is at page 18 of the English text.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Go on. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I beg you to recall the contents of this paragraph. It says that the high chief of the SS and the Police, State Secretary for Security Affairs, is subordinated directly to the Governor General, and, if he is absent, then to his deputy. Therefore, Himmler agreed with your ideal in this respect.
A. Certainly; on that day I was satisfied, but a few days later the whole thing was chanced. I can only say that these efforts on my part were continued, but unfortunately that was never put into effect and never could be put into effect. fuehrer SS, according to the expected decree by the Fuehrer, could give orders to the State Secretary. So, you see, Himmler, here, had reserved the right to give orders to Krueger directly.
Q. That is true. Then, in that case, I ask you to turn to another part of the document.
A. May I say in that connection that that agreement, or that understanding, never was put into effect, as such, but, in the form of a Fuehrer decree, was published in the Reichsgesetzblatt. Unfortunately, I do not know the date of that, but you can find the decree about the regulation of security matters in the Government General, and that is the only authoritative statement.
Here, also, reference is made to the expected decree by the Fuehrer, and that was just a draft of what was to be expected to come out in the Fuehrer decree.
Q Yes, I was just going to pass on to that. That means that you agree that this decision was merely textually a decree of the Fuehrer?
A That I cannot say offhand. If you will be good enough to give me the words of the Fuehrer decree I will be able to tell you about that.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: This order is in your document book, Your Honors.
A Now I don't have the document. It seems to me that the most essential parts of that agreement have been taken and put into this decree, with a few changes. However, that book has been taken away from me and I cannot compare it.
Q Yes. I would like you to turn to paragraph 3 of Hitler's decree, dated 7 May 1942, which says that the State Secretary for Security is directly subordinated to the Governor General. Does this not confirm the fact that the police of the governorship-general were, nevertheless, directly subordinated to you? That is in paragraph 3 of the decree.
A I want to say that that is not so. The police were not subordinate to me, even by that decree, only the State Secretary for Security. It does not say her that the police are subordinate to the Governor General, only the State Secretary for Security. If you read paragraph 4, then you come to the difficulties. It was not'quoted from Hitler's decree, because I would have protested against that. However, it became impractical. is subordinate to the State Secretary for Security in the field of security and the strengthening of Germandom. If you compare the original agreement, such as it was, in the diary, you will find that in one of the most important fields the Fuehrer had changed his mind, that is, concerning the commissar for the strengthening of Germandom.
That is the title for the Jewish question and the question of colonization. one aspect of this question. May I recall to your memory paragraph 4 of this decree, which, in point 2, reads as follows:
"The State Secretary"--and this means Krueger, I suppose--"can receive the consent of the Governor to carry out this policy." General and the Chief of Police, a decision must be made through channels of the Reich Ministry and Chief of the Chancellery. direction of the police in the governor-generalship and also as to your personal responsibility for the activity? development was quite to the contrary. I believe that we will come to that in detail. I say, therefore, that any attempt to gain some influence over the police and the SS has always failed.
Q Then whose attempt was this? This was an attempt of Hitler's? He signed this decree, did he not? Does this mean that Krueger was more powerful than Hitler?
A That question is not quite clear to me. You mean that Krueger did anything against the decree of the Fuehrer? Of course he did, but that has nothing to do with power. That was considered a tremendous concession made to me by Himmler. after that decree came up, which I had sent to the Fuehrer.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
HANS FRANK * -- Resumed, BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: the Government General?
Q I have the following question to put to you: After the 6th of May, 1942 -
A 6th of May? organized in the Government General, who was nominated to be its leader? political life and the police, was concentrated in your hands. Therefore, you are responsible for the activity of the police and the political life there. are saying that I had control of the police. Fuehrer's orders and the other documents which I have put to you,
Q Well, then, let's pass on to another group of questions. You heard of the existe nce of Maidanek only in 1944, isn't that so? time. It was especially communicated to me by the chief of press, Maschner.
Defense Counsel and which was compiled by you and which is a report addressed to Hitler, dated May 1943, I will read one excerpt, and I wish to remind you that this is dated the 7th of June 1943:
"As a proof of the absence of confidence in regard to the German leadership, I enclose a characteristic excerpt from the report of the chief of the security police and of the SD in the Government General."
A. Just a moment. I haven't found the passage here on page 35 of the German text, and it is differently worded.
Q Have you found this place now?
A Yes. But you started with a different sentence. The sentence here starts "A considerable part of the polish intelligentsia"-
THE PRESIDENT: Which page?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Page 35 of the German text.
A It starts in this document of mine with the words "a considerable portion..."
Q All right. Then I will continue. As a proof of the absence of confidence in German leadership I include a report from the Chief of the Security Police and of the SD in the Government General, covering the period from the 31st of May 1943.
A Would you be good enough to show me the passage. I don't think it is here. Whatever you have just quoted is not contained in the document I have get here.
Q No, it is there; it is somewhat a part of the quotation. is there. "A large part of the Polish intelligentsia would not let itself, however, be influenced by the news from Katyn -- and is opposed to the similar crimes of the Germans in Auschwitz."
I skip a few parts and I continue: "Amongst the working classes in so far as they are not Communistically inclined, even if this information is not denied, it is pointed out that the attitude towards the Poles is in no way better. There are concentration camps at Auschwitz and Maidanek where the mass murders of Poles continuously took place." and Maidanek, where mass murder took place, with your statement that you heard of Maidanek only at the end of 1944. This report is dated June 1943; you mentioned both Maidanek and Katyn. of Jews. The extermination of Jews in Maidanek became known to me during the summer of 1944. Up to now the word "Maidanek" has always been mentioned in connection with the extermination of Jews. May 1943, you heard of the mass murder of Poles in Maidanek and in 1944 you heard of the mass shootings and killing of Jews?
A I beg your pardon. Did you say 1944 in connection with the Jewish extermination, because that is when the official documents were handed to me?
A It stands in my memorandum and I don't protest. These are the facts as I put them, before the Fuehrer.
Q I will ask that the following document be shown to you. Do you know this document, are you acquainted with it?
A It is a decree dated the 2nd of October 1943. I assume that the wording entirely is in the original decree. you and compare it and your defense will be able to verify it. What do you think of this law signed by you?
Q You were President of the Reich Academy of Law. From the legal point of view, what do you think of this law signed by you?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is USSR Exhibit 335, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: This is the general wording of an order constituting a court martial. It is stated that the proceedings should be headed by a judge, that a document is to be made out, to be certified, and that the proceedings should be recorded in writing. Apart from that, I had the authority to give pardons so that every sentence had to come before me.