shown.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal isn't concerned with whether or not it can be proved. The question is, did you agreed or not. You can answer that, I suppose. Did you agreed or did you not agree?.
THE WITNESS: I agreed to many points and rejected other points, but this is a compilation of at least ten points.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is an answer. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q All right. We will return to this question later. I am now turning to your own directives which you issued as Minister of the Occupied Territories in the East. They were already presented to t he Tribunal as NO. 356-PS and 347-PS. First of all, I would like to put to you one question. What is this "brown file"?
A The "brown file" as far as the civil administration of the Eastern Ministry is concerned, it was compiled by this Ministry in request of the Economy Department for personnel welfare, of the technical supply for officialin the East and in the Ukraine. It was a first attempt at a general regulation
Q All right, and on the "green file" all right. Now, let us turn to your directives. Document 437-PS. We will directly show you this document.
Will you notice the part which has been underlined, on page 39, if I am not mistaken.
I will read this paragraph. "The first task of this civil administration in the Occupied Territories of the East is with respect to the interests of the Reich. The stipulations of the Hague Convention regarding land warfare, which foresees the administration of occupied territories, territories occupied by a foreign power, are not in effect for the USSR can be considered destroyed; therefore, all measures which the German administration will deem necessary or convenient to apply will be admitted." how proclaim the Soviet Union as destroyed too hastily?
A In the Russian translation I heard the word "plundering", but the word "plundering" is not found in the German text at all. If the German text is translated in that way, that everywhere -
Q I interrupt you and say that word "plundering" is not in the Russian text, which I just read into the record; so I believe you are simply inventing or at least you did not hear rightly.
A May I say a few words in this connection, please?
Q I ask you, did you write this? lished in the Eastern Territories and I am responsible officially for the "green brief case" or folder, but I would like to say a few words of explanation. The explanation about the situation of international law in the East, that explanation was given to me from the Fuehrer's headquarters, that the position of the Soviet Union, as far as the Hague Convention is concerned, that the stipulations did not apply in this case; and point 2, this document contains many pages and it is impossible for me therefore to read it in its entirety; but on the second page, I see a paragraph which shows very obviously in what effect the wording was, and the verbatim is -
THE PRESIDENT: We must try and conduct this cross examination in an orderly fashion. Now, what is thequestion? What is your question?
GENERAL RUDENKO: I put to him the question, whether he admitted that he knew of the task put before the civilian administration in the Occupied Territories as they are laid out in the quotation which I justread.
He said that he did know. I have exhausted my questions. The document is in possession of the defense and the defense will be able to quote other parts of this document, which is a very long document, when it wishes, and we won't quote it in order to save the time of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You answered the question. I understood what the question was, and that you were told that the Hague Convention did not apply to Russia.
THE WITNESS: Yes. The next to the last paragraph, the most important condition, that is, for the development in the East, is the treatment of the country and of the people in this accord. The war against the Soviet Union is to be carried on with the securing of foodstuffs and that the German objective is to be one of order. The occupied country is not to be considered as an object of exploitation, even if the German food supply and war economy needs and demands larger areas, and in a large scope, and I believe I may be ableto say that we are taking into consideration the necessities of the inhabitants, a consideration which cannot be expressed more unequivocably and more significantly. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q Very well. I will put to you the question as to how you treated the population, although you must Have heard quite a lot about this treatment during the past five months. We pass on. I asked you about the Crimea and you said that, yes, Hitler proposed to annex the Crimea to Germany. Do you remember that you did not only approve of these plans but you also thought out fresh names for towns; for instance, Simferopol was to be called "Ottenburg" and Sevastopol was to become "Theodorichafen." Do you remember that?
A Yes. The Fuehrer told me that a change of names was to be considered by me, just as we had talked about the changing of names of other cities.
Q Yes, of course.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I am expected to conclude my entire case at four o'clock. I am not quite certain how I can do that.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal hasn't laid that down as a condition. I didn't make any order about it. I only said that the Tribunal hoped, and the "hope" was addressed more to the prosecution than it was to the defense.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, if I may be permitted to say, the Soviet Prosecutor has submitted documents again which I already submitted yesterday and on which the defendant has answered already yesterday. I am referring to PS-1029 and 30. The defendant already took the position yesterday.
THE PRESIDENT: You are wasting the time of the Court by making this entire interposition.
BY GENERAL RUDENKO: of the Caucasus and you had organized a special Staff K, is that so? amongst the emigres, a PrinceMichansky, is that true?
A Yes, that is true. We did mention that, we spoke about him but he was turned down as a candidate in this case.
Q He was rejected, is that so? Very well. compiled a special report, is that true?
A It may be, yes, I believe that is true. It is quite a lengthy report. to one short excerpt.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have in view, Mr. President, a document which has already been submitted as U.S.S.R. Exhibit 58. BY GENERAL RUDENKO: which says first that the Germans must seize the entire oil.
"As regards our participation and exploitation and purchase of the oil we will be able to come to an agreement subsequently." Will you find that spot?
Q Do you confirm this statement was made by you? confirm that it is correct.
A May I make two remarks in addition? authnomy and the mitigation for these people but I cannot draw up all points when I look at only one passage because this document has fourteen pages.
Q Defendant Rosenberg, I will ask you now in regard to the tasks of the Germans as to this oil business.
Will you look at page 14 of this same report? This is how you define these tasks:
"The problems of the East consist in transferring the Baltic peoples to a German cultural basis and to prepare on a vast scale the military frontiers of Germany. The task as to the Ukraine is to assure Germany and Europe with food-stuffs and the task in the Caucasus is in the first place a political tusk and a means to an extension of continental Europe from the Caucasus to the middle East and the German supervision thereof."
Q You do not deny that these were the plans, actual plans? with the eastern policy as had been the case before 1940 for at that time the Ukraine was a country of exports, raw materials and foodstuffs.
I will put the last question concerning aggression. After having seen these documents which you do not deny, do you admit the aggressive and plundering character of Germany's war against the Soviet Union and your personal responsibility for the preparation and the commission of this aggression? Answer briefly. Do you admit this or do you not? in other wards vice versa. Germany policy in these territories. Commissariate? countries is concerned the Minister for the Eastern Occupied Countries was competent and the Reich Commissar for Territorial Government.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, the Tribunal has already heard all about the administration, the former administration and personnel of the administration.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have only two or three questions to put in this respect. BY GENERAL RUDENKO: hostages? law or whether that came under the police but I cannot answer with assurance for at the moment I do not recall a decree to that effect but it is not entirely impossible.
Q It is possible? Very well. of issuing such an order. I will, however, not show you the document and we will pass to another subject. I will therefore only put another few questions to you. in such a light to show that Koch was the sole person responsible whereas you were, on the contrary, the benefactor of the Ukrainian people. counsel and I will therefore not submit it to you, Ro 19, you recollect that you wrote in a letter to Reich leaders of the police in November 1942:
"Koch stated the Ukraine is for us only an object of exploitation and that she must pay the expenses of the war and that the population must be utilized for the solution of military problems as a people of second grade, even it we have to starve it out."
This was the policy of Koch in the Ukraine. Documents which were submitted by your counsel and which I will show you -
A. May I please answer? I do not have the document in front of me and do not recall the exact wording but I do know it was a letter written by Riecke to me in which he asked me -
Q. Koch?
A. Yes -- complained and he used rather drastic language and in which he stated both of us would be satisfied with a well-balanced order of work.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has been all over this matter of Koch as to the Ukraine today and so it is not helping the Tribunal to so over it again.
GENERAL RUDENKO: All right, Mr. President. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q. You have stated here repeatedly as regards the atrocities and extermination of the Soviet population that you were not informed and that these were police measures. Did I understand you correctly?
A. No, that is not exactly true. I was informed of many battles with partisans and bands and I was told about some shootings and also I was told about the fact that German agricultural leaders, German officials and police men had been attacked by these partisans and bands and had been murdered by the thousands.
Q. Very well. We know that the partisans who fought against enemies of the country were called by you bandits. I do not argue that. But I am speaking of the extermination of the civilian population, of old men, women and children. Did you know about that?
A. We were especially interested and we tried very much to spare the civilian population and protect them and when we heard about exaggerated measures by the police we put the most severe demands to them that even though the battle was raging very violently those considerations would be followed and the police told us that it was easy to make those demands but i the partisans murder and burn five hundred men with their families and we are attacked from the rear their, of course, there are definite conflicts that follow.
occupied territories and organization of administration and the primary task for administration, you personally planned as your first task the police measures which were not explained. Do you deny this now? I ask you, do you deny this now? token, the first one I cannot tell you at the moment. I ask that you submit this document to me. Please submit it to me.
Q I will show you the first point "A", the police measures which is in the very first place.
THE PRESIDENT: Has this document been put to him?
GENERAL RUDENKO: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the use of going into it again?
GENERAL RUDENKO: Because he asked for it. I would only like to say that the defendant tried to say that he was not informed and that these were purely police measures. I am now going to prove that he put as his primary task the commission of these police measures. the police in the middle of such a war have to take police measures of security. And the third point is the supply of the population with food stuffs in order to avoid famine. I repeat, supply of the population in order to avoid famine, the outbreak of famine.
Q Very well. Very well. Be sure about this; we talked about this in detail yesterday. I have a few last questions to put to you. First of all, I would like to ask you about the Zuman incident. The document has already been submitted to the record, but I consider it my duty to put to you this question concerning the shooting of the Soviet citizens for the pure reason that a shooting place was needed. You remember this document?
A Yes; I have given an extensive explanation yesterday.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, this has been gone into before before the Tribunal. Why should the Tribunal's time be taken up by going over and over again on the same grounds? We have said that we would not have things done cumulatively.
GENERAL RUDENKO: A few details of this question ore of great importance, and the defendant did not explain then, and I wish very much -- I feel very strongly.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will adjourn to consider the matter.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: First of all, the Tribunal will rise tomorrow at half past four, Now, as to this question, the Tribunal thinks that the matter has been sufficiently gone into, but, if there is any particular point which has not been dealt with before, a question may be asked in that connection.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Very well, Mr. President. BY GENERAL RUDENKO: addressed a letter to Himmler regarding this incident, regarding the shooting of hundreds of Soviet citizens in the region of Zuman because this place was necessary as a hunting ground.
Didn't you address such a letter to Himmler?
Until June, 1943, you were interested. What were the results of this letter? Weren't you interested in that? Police and I had to wait for what measures of security in the Ukraine the man who was responsible for it would take. When I did not receive any further information, I used this case for a complaint with the Fuehrer.
Q When did you tell it to Hitler? of May, 1943, and the file,which was very extensive, probably reached him several weeks before; that is, between the 2nd of April and the middle of May. That was about five or six weeks, I believe. That is a very fast complaint because, first, it had to be read by Lammers and Bormann; then it had to be reported to the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer had to make his decision and give his directives; and then I was called to the Fuehrer.
Q When was this complaint discussed for the last time?
Q Was it discussed in the presence of Koch? a report to Hitler, a report from the high Forestry Office. against the guerillas?
A Not quite exactly like that; but it said that that district had to be utilized for the necessary supply of lumber for the armed forces, and that these needed forests harbored many partisans and guerrilla bands; therefore, there was a great dange for the workers who would work in these districts, and it had con to shootings between them and partisans and guerrilla bands; and, since one could not watch over them, a transfer of the people from these forest districts into areas further to the south took place.
Koch added that than many of these people who had been transferred had said that they had received better land than they had had in these forest districts.
That was the explanation that Koch had given.
Q Yes, it's understandable. They were grateful that one December night they were evicted from their houses and taken sixty kilometers and back and hundreds of them were shot. However, I should like to ask you the following: In your letter to Himmler you also attached the memorandum from the Forestry Office, and in this memorandum from the Forestry Office it is stated -- I am going to read this point and you should really remember this terrible case when citizens were shot on account of hunting. without doubt that, first of all, in the interest of hunting, there was undertaken an evacuation of many villages situated in the forests of Zuman.
Is it correct? This is contained in the memorandum. with an assistant for forest economy in Berlin, who had added that, on the basis of his report and the chief of the people's administration in the Ukraine, himself.
Q. The last question in connection with this incident: Did you believe Koch when he stated that?
A. If I am asked like that, that is hard to answer, but there was -
Q. (Interposing) It is exactly on your conscience.
A. There was a description of conditions by the forestry people, and I could not protest against that, and I have to say that I may have made a mistake.
Q. I quite understand. I shall finish with just reminding you of one quotation from your speeches:
"For hundreds of people in Zuman who were shot by the police forces because their moods were Communist inclined, not one Ukrainian believed that. The Germans were also astonished at this statement, because if this had been done for the safety of the country then the other elements who were contaminated with Communism should have been shot also in other regions."
I have here to put to you the last question. Here in the Tribunal yesterday several times you declared that you wanted to resign your post. Moreover, you spoke about your letter to Hitler, dated the 12th of December, 1944, where you stated -- regarding this my colleague, Mr. Dodd, has already reminded you that at that date, December 1944, the Reich Minister of Eastern Territories didn't have any more territories, because the Germans were out of Russia by that time. and even becoming a member of the Secret Council, you asked Hitler that you would be granted this position of Reich Minister. Do you remember that?
A. I was never a member of the so-called Secret Cabinet. That is not correct. Secondly -
Q. (Interposing) Well,I shall correct myself. You dreamed of becoming a member of the Secret Cabinet.
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And also dreamed of becoming Reich Minister.
A. Well, the question became acute for that task. There was a discussion about the form of that task. Dr. Lammers told me the Fuehrer intended either to appoint a Reich Inspector because he wanted to -
Q. Defendant Rosenberg, please. So that we won't linger too long on that question, I am going to submit to the Tribunal a document. This is your personal letter, the last document -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) In the first place, I don't know what the question is, and you are interrupting the witness before he has answered any question.
GENERAL RUDENKO: No, Mr. President. I have one aim here, because I should like to shorten my interrogation in accordance with the desire of the Tribunal. So I am going to submit the letter of Rosenberg of the 6th of February 1938, addressed to Hitler, where he requests this post from Hitler. We are submitting this document as Exhibit USSR 117. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q. Defendant Rosenberg, I am going to read this document into the record. It is not very long.
"6th of February 1938. My Fuehrer, because I was unable -
THE PRESIDENT: The document is translated into German, isn't it? It is in German to start with. It isn't necessary to read it all. You can put it in like other documents.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Very well. BY GENERAL RUDENKO:
Q. In this letter you expressed your being hurt in connection with defendant Ribbentrop as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Is that correct?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. You thought that the post of the Minister of Foreign Affairs in the Hitler Cabinet could have been filled by yourself, defendant Rosenberg; is that correct?
A. Yes, and I don't find it so extraordinary for me that I shouldn't have been able to express my wish to be used in the foreign service of the German Reich.
A. Very well. You in this letter speak of the existence of the Secret Cabinet; is that correct?
A. Well, may I read this letter, because --
Q. Very well, yes. Please read it through.
Q Everything that is contained in it, is it correct?
Q This is your own letter?
Q You asked to be appointed into this Secret Cabinet?
Q You asked for the position of Reich Minister?
A Yes. I reported that I had spoken to Party Member Goering about the question of the appointment, and since the Fuehrer had charged me with the ideological education and also the foreign political office of the Party still existed, that the impression could be made in the Party if I would be refused by the Fuehrer. Therefore, I asked the Fuehrer to receive me with respect to that matter, and I think it quite logical that I wanted to speak about on eventual inclusion of my person in the German Reich Cabinet. colleague of Hitler in carrying out all his plans and his ideas.
A No, that is not correct; that is absolutely wrong.
Q Very well, let's consider it as a reply to my question.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I have finished, Mr. President.
M. MONNERAY: Mr. President, I have only a few questions to ask the accused. BY M. MONNERAY: execution of the Jews of France gave the opportunity to your organization to seize furniture and valuables which belonged to these Jews? order to confiscate apartments and other properties of Jewish civilians in France. the profits of your confiscation and seizure operations; isn't that exact?
A No. The deportation of Jews hasnothing to do with that affair.
The suggestion for these measures was given, as I said yesterday, only after receiving the report that Jewish, people in question were no longer present in their houses and apartments, that they had left Paris and had not returned.
Q Once the Jews were deported they were absent, isn't that true? The rest of the Parisians and inhabitants of cities in the north of France returned in time, but, as I have been informed, the Jewish population did not return into these cities, especially not to Paris. Therefore, they were not deported, but they had fled. I believe the number of those who had fled was given as 5, 6, or 7 million. when they were in the course of the German occupation of France under the new deportation measure, the apartments and homes of people deported were not then seized by your organization?
A No, that I cannot express that way. It may very well be that the apartments of Jewish personalities who had been arrested may have been confiscated, but I could not give any express information about that. organization a greater chance of succeeding in seizures and confiscations; isn't that true?
A No, this is not according to facts. As can be seen from the report which the French Prosecution made here, the measures taken were those that apartments were confiscated by the police, sealed.. They waited two months to see whether or not the owner of that apartment would return, and only after the identity had been established and it had been established that this was not the case was the furniture transferred to Germany for those whose apartments had been damaged by bombs. That can be seen from the report which the French Prosecution has submitted. agree with me on that--there was very little chance of people deported returning after two months.
A Yes, yes, indeed. I was informed about cases. Even in the regrettable document, 001-PS, we can read that we had heard that a large number of Jewish personalities formerly arrested had been released again.
to Hitler on October 3, 1942, which has already been presented to the Tribunall Exhibit No. 1327. In that document you remind Hitler of your competence and your powers, and you say that it is a matter for you as Minister of the Reich for the Occupied Territories of the East to seize the homes of Jews who had taken to flight, who were absent, or who were called to leave; If you wish, I can submit to you this document in order to refresh your memory if necessary. referring to. It is a document of the 3rd of October 1942, which has already been produced. it is possible that a number of apartments of arrested people, other people who were absent, were included in that, but as I have said, in the other report there was more detailed information. But this document as such is according to facts. entrusted not only with the seizure of apartments which you had found vacant at the time of the arrival of the Germans in Paris, but also of homes and apartments of people who were called upon to leave in the following months, as you say. in territories occupied by the Germans in the west as well as in the East, Jews were called upon to leave. You know that it was in special trains, generally, which led them to concentration camps.
A No, I did not know about those trains. We dealt with definitely deserted apartments, and I was probably informed that eventually also the apartments of people arrested would be taken into consideration. More is not said in here, and I could not give you any further information. As to the reports which have been submitted here before the Tribunal, I have seen them here for the first time. I only know that in the end I was informed that before the conquest of Paris by Allied troops, all available furniture was turned over to the French Red Cross.
eyes, do you agree with me on the following points, that your organization had the right to seize valuables and homes which had become vacant after the arrival of the German troops in Paris? Do you agree with me on that point? ever of the deportations in special trains to special destinations. Do you know -- and I suppose you do know it since the document to which I am referring has already been produced before the Tribunal -- that in Paris every Tuesday since 1941 and until the end of the German occupation, Tuesday meetings brought together the representatives of the various German organizations in Paris, that is to say, the experts in Jewish affairs in the different German organizations, a representative of the German Military Command, a representative of the Administrative Division, a representative of the Police Division, and a representative of the Economic Service. At these meetings there was also present a representative of the German Embassy in Paris, and also a representative of your special staff.
I am referring to Document No. RF-1210, which is a report of Dannecker of February 22, 1942, and he was the chief of these responsibilities and the great expert on anti-Jewish terrorist action in Paris during the occupation; If you wish, I will submit that document to you. never received a report about these Tuesday conferences which took place regularly. However, my plenipotentiary for the furniture action had to keep in liaison with the police. That was a matter of course, since the confiscations of such articles could not be made by my office. That was a definite right of the police, and therefore one had to speak to the police about these things.