But in one case it is possible for me to give an explanation on this point at this time.
I am concerned with "Twelve Commandments" on the demeanor of Germans in the East, There is a quotation from which it can he concluded only that it is a quotation from a German directive or out of a German directive The twelve commandments were submitted by the Soviet prosecution to the high Tribunal, under USSR 89.
It deals, as it has been established there, with a directive of the State Secretary Backe, dated the beginning of June 1941, a directive which I have just seen here now, and the quotation which I mentioned before seems to be a compilation of fragments which were actually dispersed over a page and a half of the document and these fragments are not given in their proper sequence. They are given in a completely different series from what they are in the document. It said under point 6 of these commandments "You must therefore establish for an experienced leader; you must there take the most severe measures as required by state of necessity; and you must carry them through with dignity. Lack of character on the basis of the individual will bring about his being recalled. Anyone who is recalled for such reasons cannot any longer have a decisive position in the Reich." In the quotation official note it says "Therefore, you, yourself, will have to take the most cruel measures which will be dictated by German interests and you will carry them through with dignity otherwise you cannot have any responsible position at home any longer". Therefore, instead of the words "harsh" and "severe" the word "cruel" has been substituted -- in place of the words "because of necessity of state," it just said very generally "German interests," and as far as "a lack of character" very generally it is set down that "if you do not carry through the most cruel measures you cannot any longer have a responsible position." I would not want to identify myself in any way with these twelve commandments but I would like to state that on page 3 in part 7, where it says "be just and decent and modest and in part 9, "do not be Russian baiters; the Russian youth has been educated for Communism. Russian youth doesn't know any othertraining and it is senseless to try and punish the past."
I believe that Mr. Backe, who used perhaps stronger Polish Government.
It just concerns me in one point only. On page 20, under point 5, it is stated that the expleitation and the carrying off of art objects was centralized under the office of Rosenberg in Berlin. That is incorrect, as was shown by the report of State Secretary Muehlmann, and in this report which has been read, an entirely different department was responsible for the safeguarding and securing of the objects of art and furthermore, I already read a directive by Lammers, dated the 5th of June 1942, in which the Government General was expressly excluded. I must, however, admit that in one case, in the beginning of the activity of the Einsatz staff, the art collection was confiscated and taken to the Reich. That action of course, was not correct. There was correspondence later with the then Governor General Frank and myself and it shows in any record that we had agreed that naturally this collection was to be re turned. The incorrectness of the accusation may be seen also that it is contended here that I had, through my all purpose staff, and the various departments, that I had an office "East" for Poland. The incorrectness of this statement may be seen from the fact that the so-called "special purpose staff" which was established for the various departments, were actually expert staffs and besides them, working groups had regional problems and tasks. I could not have an office "East" for Poland and at no time was the concept "Poland" ever used in official circles -- only the term "Government General," and I believe I can be satisfied with this explanation. Besides that, there is a number of other general documents which had bean submitted from Smolensk and from other cities, which show destruction and quota police measures, but as far mitted to the witness Lammers.
This document is concerned with the trans nated to the Reichminister for the Occupied Eastern Countries.
In the preference to the Foreign Office.
The Foreign office, as far as prisoners spiritual and propaganda matters.
The Foreign Minister took care of this kind of spiritual and other material as to the prisoners.
This statement, the Fuehrer's headquarters in the East.
have been accused of the matter of gold dealings in toe East. You have been accused of dealings in this connection.
Furthermore, a document has been Minsk.
Will you please tell us what you have to say in that connection?
the hauptamp office. In the course of twelve years of my Party office and my deposited in my office.
I knew some of them, some of them I had received oral unable to take knowledge of.
As far as these documents are concerned, I must any other details.
It was the document which I never received personally but and was given to me by the police.
I cannot define my position as to the con I must say in this connection, that this report was known to me.
This report representative Gauleiter, Dr. Meier, took a copy of the complaints of the that time, Heydrich -- who submitted this for investigation.
I must say that Fuehrer.
As far as this report is concerned, and many others which I received I took them as aspects of the war.
I heard that in Kiev a large number of destruction of all Jewry.
I must say that the British Prime Minister, in as speech but I did not assume that when he talked about Prussian officers that he meant all National Socialist Officers.
Regarding document No. 135-R, I would like to say the following. It is dated 18th June 1943. On the 22nd of June, I returned from an official visit to the Ukraine. After this official visit I found a number of notes about discussions. I found many letters and, above all, I found the Fuehrer decree which I had heard about orally, which dated from the middle of June 1943, in which the Fuehrer instructed me to be guided about basic principles as far as the giving of lives was concerned and I am not to concern myself too much with the admnistration in the East. I was impressed when I returned from this journey and I did not read this document, but I cannot assume that this document was not mentioned to me by my subordinates--my subordinates were very conscientious and I can assume only that in the course of their reporting to mo, they told me that another great complaint between tha police and civilian administration was again at hand, for many complaints of that nature had arisen in the past and I heard that it is possible, and said "Please give this to Gauleiter Meier; give this to the police officer as a liaison officer so he can investigate these matters," but otherwise those terrible details would have remained in my memory. I cannot say any more to this matter. When I was questioned about this matter, I said what I have said now.
DR. THOMA: Now I wish to submit to the Tribunal as Exhibit RO-13 a memorandum by Koch to Rosenberg as to complaints about the critique of Rosenberg and justification of his policy in the Ukraine, dated 16 March, 1943 and a letter by Dr. Rosenberg to Dr. Lammers, dated 12 October, 1944 in which he states he wishes to resign. May it please the Tribunal, RO-13, Memorandum Koch to Rosenberg -
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number?
DR. THOMA: RO-13 192-PS, document book number two, page 14. I would like to read this to the Tribunal personally and I would like to make some introductory remarks.
THE PRESIDENT: It is a very long thing, Dr. Thoma. You do not need to read it all surely,
DR. THOMA: I shall, not read all of it, your Honor. But I have the opportunity of presenting State Secretary Riecke as a representative of the Eastern Ministry and that witness, when he appears before the Court will show that the best officials which the German Reich had at its disposal were used in the East and that these officials were very conscientious in checking on complaints. to the Tribunal and in four or five years many terrible things did happen in th East. The question now is just what -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal are simply asking you not to read the whole of the document which covers many pages. That means you can go ahead and read the essential parts of it.
DR. THOMA: Therefore, I would like to assert that each and every comparing which was received by the Eastern Ministry was followed up.
"Various decrees issued recently by the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories in which my work was critisized in an exceptionally severe and offensive manner and which have resulted in obscuring interpretation of policies as well as my legal position, have induced me to present the following report to you, Mr. Reich Minister, in the form of a memorandum".
the most modest complaints. He said for instance:
"Thus your Ministry reports to me with the decree of 12 January 1943 that Anna Prichno of Smygalovka, an Eastern worker, had complained that her parents who remained in the Ukraine could not pay their taxes. I am not only asked to cancel these taxes or to reduce than by half but to 'report on my action'." On page 13:
"Lately numerous single complaints from Eastern workers employed in the Altreich have been passed on to me and on each single case I have been asked to give a report, usually on such short notice that it was impossible to comply with the request."
On page 15 and 16:
"Hence, I found it strange (as Gauleiter Koch says) to have the decree of 1/41 of November 22, 1941, state that the Ukrainians were strongly permeated with German blood, which fact was to account for their remarkable cultural and scientific achievements. But when on top of this a secret decree of July 1942, to which I will refer more closely at the end of this section, declares that very many points of contact exist between the German and Ukrainian people I find it no longer only strange but I am astonished. This decree demands not only correct but amiable manners in dealing with Ukrainians "In the following I would like to give a few more examples of lack of reserve towards Ukrainians.
For instance, by decree of 18 June, 1942, I was informed that you were procuring 2.3 million marks worth of Ukrainian schoolbooks, charged to my budget without even contacting; me about it previously."
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think it necessary to read all this? I am not quite sure how far you have gotten because I have been reading on.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, may I make a remark please? I have already made my selection. However, I will try to be more brief. ness with which Rosenberg followed these complaints up. It is elaborated upo but I will be very brief.
"It is not necessary that your Ministry stress as it does by many written and oral messages over and over again that any violence in recruiting of work has to be discontinued."
And then there is one further very brief remark:
"And if mere decrees are issued against flogging I will make myself ridiculous. These hangings were very few." call to the attention of the Tribunal, Gauleiter Koch reported to the Fuehrer and said:
"Nobody has ever asked me, as a former Gauleiter, that I should submit to him articles I write for none but the Fuehrer can absolve me of the political responsibility for an article signed with my full name.
"Finally, in addition to these explanations of the jurisdiction of my responsibilities. I would like to reiterate the relations between the Fuehrer and the Reich Commissioners. As an old Gauleiter I am used to consulting with my Fuehrer directly in all my problems, and requests and this right in my capacity as Oberpresident has never been denied me even by my superior minister. However, I have gained the impression that steps were taken by the Minister of the East to deny me this right. By decree of August 1942, the subordinate officers are requested not to report directly to the Fuehrer, "I must state here that in my position as an old Gauleiter the Fuehrer has repeatedly given me his political directives and that occasionally he oven expressed his political viewpoint on the Ukraine."
On page 15 he says:
" I have stated expressly that I must reject responsibility for labor recruitment for Rosenberg has ordered that an amiable recruiting system is to be followed."
At the end he says:
"My position has been curtailed and it can only be refered to the Fuehrer." between Rosenberg, Bormann and Koch and the result was that Bormann supported Koch and he was upheld and Rosenberg was notified to Limit himself to essentials only.
BY DR. THOMA: document book number two, page 27.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, I think we had better adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
BY DR. THOMA: which it becomes clear that the District Suman (?) was to be the hunting district for the Reich Commissioner, and for that reason hundreds of people were shot down because resettling them would have been too complicated and too lengthy. Will you make a statement about that? atrocities committed in the East. Upon investigating them, it was found that these reports did not conform with facts. In this particular case this report appeared so credible to me that I made it the cause to report to the Fuehrer directly, considering that I was having trouble with Gauleite Koch in any case. Apart from other questions, the question of schools in the Ukraine had arisen; so had the question of establishing high schools and certain personal statements from Koch, which I submitted in the form of complaints of mine, and I also submitted this report I've just mentioned. for the Forest Administration of the Ukraine, from which it appeared that these forest districts were suitable for supplying timber for railway construction and such woods were to be used for this purpose, but the bandits and partisans were hiding in these woods, and in which he stated that such a task, in consideration of the obscure situation, might be very difficult. It was stated that Koch, though not in the interest of his hunting, but because of the care he wanted to take for his district, had started a cleansing action and that in the course of that a number of partisans and bandits had been found who had been shot. The remaining population from these wood districts had been r esettled. When Koch added, in addition to the statement from the administration, that a number of these resettled persons had expressed their gratitude for the fact that they had I taken to a better country than they had lived in in these woods, the Fuehrer shrugged his shoulders and said, "It would be difficult for me to decide. I have the statement from the Forest Administration from the Ukraine and I must accept that. I leave the matter alone; and the other decision regarding the policy will be sent to you."
files here, but which, unfortunately, has not been found. It is a decree about which witness Lammers has spoken and wh ich in principle states that the Reich Commissioner must not make obstruction and that he was to confine himself to principle matters. His decrees should go to the Reich Commission for his information and, in the event of conflicts, the decision of the Fuehrer should be gotten. represent the views which I considered right. But I will, of course, not deny that on several occasions, due to pressure exercised by the Fuehrer and Bormann, I became a little weary. And when it was said in clear-cut points that I was apparently more interested in these Eastern people than I was in the welfare of the German mission, I made some reassuring statements; but my decrees from then on continued in the old established way. As I can now ascertain, I reported to the Fuehrer on eight different occasions in this particular matter; I submitted written petitions and I rectified my decrees as desired. with his police affairs, but also politics in the Eastern Territories, and when, in November, '43, I could no longer report to the headquarters at all, I tried for the last time to make a suggestion to the Fuehrer regarding a generous Eastern policy. At the same time, I told him very distinctly, if he should refuse, I would be glad if he would relieve me from any further posts. In this connection I'm referring to a letter from Dr. Lammers of 12 October 1944, at the beginning of which it says that, in the face of current developments and Eastern problems, I was asking that he should submit this letter of mine to the Fuehrer personally. I am saying that I was considering the manner in which the German policy in the East was being handled as being so unfortunate; and that, at the same time, I wasn't included in the negotiations; and that, nevertheless, I was being made responsible for them, and I was asking him to submit my letter to the Fuehrer as soon as possible for his decision.
Dr. Lammers immediately transmitted the letter to the Fuehrer's secretary. In the direct letter to the Fuehrer I am saying--this a lengthy letter, and I am only quoting a few passages. On Page 2:
"For observation and direction of this development I have created leading departments for all Eastern peoples in the Ministry for Eastern Affairs. It has now been found that they have been well employed. They also contain representatives from the various regions, and it would appear in the interest of German policies. They may be recognized as national committees." End of quotation. it that the representatives from all Eastern nationalities could raise complaints from their nationals. They could raise them personally in the Eastern Ministry, which in turn would mean that such complaints would be raised with the German labor authorities in question or the Plenipotentiary for Labor. and as far aspolitical psychological leadership was concerned, had reported to the Chief of the Reich Chancellery in a letter, and I say: "I am asking you, my Fuehrer, that I may report the contents of it to you as well." This is a reference to a further report I am making.
On Page 36: "I am asking you, my Fuehrer, to tell me whether you still desire my activity in this direction, for since it was not possible for me to report to you orally, the problems of the East are brought to you and discussed from various sides, so I must, in consideration of this development assume that you, my Fuehrer, do not consider this activity of mine as necessary any more. In addition rumors are spread by sources unknown to me of the dissolution of the East Ministry, in fact even that these rumors are used in official correspondence to the highest Reich authorities as a reason for various demands which have been made. Under such circumstances efficien work, my Fuehrer, is not possible, and I ask you to give me directives as to how I should act in consideration of the state of affairs which has developed."
conception provided for in my speech of the 20th of June, and in my protest during the meeting of the 16th of July, and it says:
"This conception provided that in order to mobilize all the national forces of the Eastern peoples, the voluntary promise to them in advance of a certain autonomy and the possibility of cultural development, with the aim of leading them against the Bolshevist enemy. This conception, which in the beginning I ventured to assume you approved of, hasnot been carried out because the peoples were treated in an opposite way politically. Solely and only because of the agrarian order of 1942 approved by you has their willingness to work been maintained to the end by encouraging among then a certain hope of acquiring property."
of mine for an adjustment of the Eastern policy, which is reiterated for the last time, and in paragraph 2 on page 1, it says that the spokesmen attached to the Eastern Ministry are used by him in the name of the Reich Ministry, and at a point to be fixed by the Fuehrer are to be recognized as national committees means that these will be spokesmen on behalf of the people which they represent.
And on page 2 in the middle, it says: "In the leadership of the peoples of the East-
THE PRESIDENT: Is the Tribunal interested in all this detail? The substance of it has been given by the witness, has it not ? He has summarized the whole letter before he began to read any of it. There is nothing new up be now,
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, the defendant wanted to summarize briefly what his conception was, namely, autonomy, free cultural development, and that was the basis of the controversy with Koch, namely, that Koch was favoring a sort of exploitation and that he was emphasizing it. That was the reason why he wanted to say once more what the whole plan and his conception regarding the Soviets was.
the reconstruction in the Ukraine I want to have the defendant make a statement on the subject of the treatment of prisoners of war. Document Book 081. Unfortunately I shall have to have the original given to the defendant -wait a minute, here it is.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it anywhere in your books? Is it 081-PS?
DR. THOMA: It has been submitted under a USR exhibit number. BY DR. THOMA:
Q. Have you got it, Defendant?
A. It is USSR 353. fairly near the beginning of the activity of the Eastern Ministry, and then later on, particularly during that dreadful winter, 1941 and 1942. were reported to me by my political department, and we passed these complains on to the military sources concerned, together with a request that they should be considered, for reasons which must have been generally understanable. by stated to me that they had a great deal of understanding with those wishes, particularly for the wish stated by us that prisoners from these large prisoner of war camps should be selected according to their nationality to be taken to smaller camps in accordance with their nationality. This sorting out according to nationality and the human treatment would be an excellent solution because of the very numerous complaints mentioning the death of thousands of Soviet prisoners. Red Army were defending themselves in such a tough way and would not surrender, when they were so hungry and so completely exhausted that when they were captured by the Germans there were numerous cases of cannibalism among those soldiers, but that nevertheless these soldiers were too tough to surrender. being shot, and that complaint too, was passed on by us, but that an order existed in this connection was unknown to me.
prisoners which had been liberated were often found dead or crippled, that in this connection there must have been a case of police or other type of reprisal. Later on I had been informed that such shootings were prohibited, and I came to the conclusion that political kommissars were members of the Red Army.
Here is Document 081-PS. It has been stated by the Prosecution that this is a letter from the Minister for Eastern Affairs to the Chief of the OKW. The document was also found amongst my files, but it is not a letter originating from me to the Chief of the OKW, General Fieldmarshal Keitel. It was obviously deposited in my office by the sender. In the left-hand top corner on page 1 it appears that there is a figure I, 1, which means Main Department I, Sub-department 1. In the case of letters originating from me such a reference would always be absent, since I was not a sub-department of any kind. the personal character of either having the name of the addressee, or they would have the personal address. Chief of the OKW is the office, the service department, just as the ordinary address would be the Reich minister for Occupied Eastern Territories and would not be employed in the c aze of a personal letter to me, but in the case of a letter written to the office.
letter addressed to no, tions and state of affairs in connection with prisoners of war of Soviet Russian nationality, and it is apparently based on the numerous complaints which have been received by means of information from relatives. Apparently, the sender considered these complaints as being true, and he wrote to the military authorities and sent them such a letter of complaint.
I won't go into the details, but I will take the liberty of reading one final passage in connection with which I will state that it is in keeping with the spirit in which I have made efforts to educate my collaborators. On the other hand, they thought that they ought to act in the sane sense. It states, literally, on page 5, that the main -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): What is the date?
A (Continuing): The letter is dated 28 February 1942. That is to say, it was the winter of that dreadful frost. It goes on to say:
"The main demand will have to be the one that the treatment of prisoners of war must be carried out in accordance with the laws of humanity and in accordance with the dignity of the German Reich. It is conceivable that the numerous cases of inhuman treatment which have been ascertained have been allotted to German prisoners of war by the Soviet Army. They have embittered the German Army to such an extent that they wish to take reprisals. Such retribution, however, is not improving the situation of German prisoners of war, but will, in thelast consequences, lead to the situation that both parties will no longer take any prisoners at all." regarding the activity of my political department, and because this is an example of their work. I think that this will clarify the question.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, this was going to be the end of the questions relating to the eastern territory. I will submit an affidavit from Professor Dr. Stanger referring to the employment of machinery in the Ukraine. This affidavit contains the following -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): Have you finished your examination now ?
DR. THOMA: I have finished the questions relating to the Ministry for Eastern Affairs, and after that I shall have a few more brief questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has seen this affidavit recently so there is no need to read it. We saw this affidavit the other day and read it when you considered it. Now, if you will give us the exhibit number.
DR. THOMA:R-035. This deals with machinery which had a value of 180 millions, and it was delivered to the Ukraine. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Witness, were you a member of the SA or SS?
Q So that you have never worn SS uniform?
Q Did you know anything about concentration camps?
A Yes. That question, of course, has been put to everybody and the fact that concentration camps existed became known to me in '33.
But although this may appear a repetition, I must nevertheless state that I knew the name of two concentration camps, Oranienburg and Dachau. amongst other things, that in one concentration camp there were 800 Communist agitators who sentences averaged four years of prison or penitentiary. Based on the fact that this was carried out by legal means, but nevertheless was something revolutionary, I had, of course, considered for some time that protective custody for certain persons might be decreed. But at the some time I saw and heard how our toughest opponents, against no accusations of criminality could be raised, were treated so generously that our strongest opponent, the Prussian Minister Severing was retired with full pension as a minister, and that attitude particularly was felt by me to be National Socialistic. For that reason I had to assume that these new institutions were, first of all, a state political necessity, a conviction which I certainly did have. the war? concentration camps, neither Dachau nor any other one. I think in 1938 I questioned Himmler about concentration camps and I told him that I had heard from the foreign press quite a lot of detrimental news, and asked him what was true about it. Himmler told me, "Why don't you come along and have a look at Dachau and take a look at things? We have got a swimming pool there. Our sanitary installations are first class and no objections can be raised."
I didn't visit the camp because if something improper had been going on, then Himmler, upon being asked such a question, would probably not have shown it to me. On the other hand, I thought that it was a question of bad taste if I wanted to watch people who had been deprived of their liberty, but I thought that it would be a good thing if I pointed out to Himmler that such rumors were becoming known.