DR. THOMA: What page?
THE WITNESS: Page 2 of this document. Toward the end it says -
THE PRESIDENT: What document are you talking about now? What document number?
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but the copy I have is not marked in red and I am referring to the document which I had at hand. I believe it is at the end of page 1 of Document 1015-PS. There is no special letter given. It is Just a circular letter dated the 7th of April 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: I only want to get this clear. What I took down was that he was referring to a decree of the 20th of August 1941.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon. It is the 20th of August.
DR. THOMA: The 20th of August, that is correct, and the year is 1941. It is page 78 of Document Book 2, at the end of the page.
THE WITNESS: "I request that you specifically prohibit the removal of cultural goods of any kind from your Reich Comissariat by any agencies whatsoever without your approval. Everything of the seized cultural goods which remains in the Reich Comissariat Ostland and which may be eventually utilized for research work in the Higher School must come under a later regulation. I request that you inform your subordinated General and District Commissioners of this directive. The national administration of museums, libraries, etc., regardless of the right of inspection and inventory by the Special Purpose Staff, remains unaffected by this directive."
accusation by the Soviet Prosecution as far as Esthonia and Lithuania are concerned. BY DR. THOMA: direction, and I would like to refer to a second directive for the Minister of the Occupied Eastern Territories, dated the 7th of April 1942, where, at the end, under I, the some principle I have just read is reiterated. It is in Document Book 2, page 94. Everyone is told not to take independent action.
Under II, it says verbatim -- and I quote:
"In special exceptional cases, immediate measures of securing or removal of items to a safe place can be carried out in order to evade danger threatening (e.g. danger of collapse of buildings, enemy action, climatic influences, etc,). In all cases, immediate written notification of my Special Purpose Staff must take place." ernment. When Document 076-PS was road, it said that there was never any directive for the securing of cultural good, but proofs do exist as I have just quoted two times. minster for the Occupied Eastern Countries to the staff leader of the Einsatzstab. This is a document of the 3rd of October 1941. I again call his attention to the documents which I have just read. of the Supreme Command of the Army in September of 1942, which was in agreement with the Reichminster for Eastern Occupied Countries. Here also it says at the end, under I,-
Q That is page 89 of the document book?
THE PRESIDENT: Which is that? September '42?
THE WITNESS: The 30th of September.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have get that. What about the one of October '41? Where is that?
THE WITNESS: October '41?
THE PRESIDENT: October '41.
THE WITNESS: That was the 3rd of October 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know where it is, Dr.Thoma?
DR. THOMA: It is contained in Document 1015-PS, which is U SA-85, but it may be that this document is not listed. In my document I cannot locate it at present, but it belongs to 1015-PS which was submitted in its entirety.
THE WITNESS: And the order of the 30th of September 1942 says, under I:
"Disregarding exceptional cases, in which the safeguarding of endangered works of culture is urgent, its place of temporary location is to be sought on the spot. For this purpose, according to the mutual agreement between the Supreme Command of the Army General Staff of the II/G on. Qu. and the Speci al Purpose Staff of Reichsleiter Rosenberg, the following authorities have been granted to the latter:
"c. To conceal or to safeguard in the operational area of the East for the protection against damage or destruction, also such works of culture which do not fall under paragraph b, especially art treasures of museums."
At the end of this directive, it says, under IV:
"Independent from the missions of the Special Purpose Staff of Reichsleiter Rosenberg according to Section I, a, b, c, the troops and all military units located in the operational area are immediately to be notified to preserve if possible valuable art monuments and to save them from destruction or damage." briefly, that as far as my Special Purpose Staff and the military office were concerned, unequivocal directives and orders were issued for the protection of valuable art objects, even in these bitter battles, the objects of art of the Polish, Ukrainian, and White Ruthenian people. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Mr. Rosenberg, do you know that Hitler and Goering received some of the objects of art which were concentrated in France? What was your part?
transmitted by Keitel; and it was pointed out that the Fuehrer would decide alone, himself, that he would make the decision. part of these objects of art would remain in Germany, since, in the course of time, many German cultural works of art had been destroyed by bombing attacks, especially in the West. These works of art were to be a basis for later negotiations. Staff, on the special directive of the Fuehrer, and when a number of these works of art were earmarked by Goering for his collection, I was, I must say frankly--as it says in the record--a little uneasy, because, with this directive, I had a certain responsibility. I had signed my name, and I had taken over responsibility for the confiscated objects. I was, therefore, obligated to catalog them in their entirety, to save them, and to have them ready for a final disposition. Therefore, I directed my deputy to make a complete list of those things which the Reichsmarshal, at the approval of the Fuehrer, was taking for his collection. the German Reich and not to keep it as part of his private inheritance. I must say that there is a regrettable error to be found. It says that I had been uneasy because Reichsmarshal Goering had taken these works of art. In German, the term "entwendent" used means "unjustly" or "illegally" or "embezzled". However, what I said was "verwendent", which means "utilized", and there is a difference.
DR. THOM: Mr. President, I would like to call to your attention the fact that the French used the work "detourne", which means "embezzled".
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken) BY DR. THOMA: I am showing the defendant document 001, in volume 2 of the French document book, and I am asking the defendant to state his views.(The document was submitted to the witness.)
the effect that in the East the accommodation problem and conditions had been so dreadful that I was asking for consideration as to whether unoccupied Jewish flats in France, and parts of their equipment, should be used for that purpose. This suggestion was taken up by the Chief of the Reich Chancellery on the 31st of September, 1941, and conceded in a decree issued by order of the Fuehrer. that I no longer could take responsibility for this, and thus I made a suggestion that this furniture should be placed at the disposal of bombing victims in Germany--which amounted to more than 100,000 people in certain towns--so that first help would be given to them. the 7th paragraph, how the confiscation was carried out: that these deserted apartments were sealed; that they remained sealed for a lengthy period, so that any possible claims were waited for, and that only then was the transport of the articles to Germany carried out. interference with private property, but here again, in connection with previous thoughts, I had thought of the homeless millions of Germans. regarding the fact that, in a book of considerable size, flats, their owners, and the main contents in the way of furniture, had been laid down in detail, so that, at a later date, there would be a basis for any possible negotiations.
In Germany the matter was handled in such a way that those people who suffered damage through bombing, with regard to these furnishings which were placed at their disposal, and household goods as well, had to pay for them, and these supplies made to them were deducted from the claims which they had against the state. That money was paid into a special fund administered by the minister of finance.
The document here--001-PS--contains under No. 2 a suggestion which I myself consider a serious implication against me. This is a suggestion that on the strength of four murders committed against Germans in France not only Frenchmen should be shot as hostages, but that Jewish citizens also were to be held responsible. I should like to say that these shootings of hostages, since they were to be announced locally, were considered by me as being justified in a war under certain special circumstances, since the fact that the armed forces were carrying out such things appeared to me to be the result of a natural legal investigation, particularly since these things were taking place in the territory and with reference to a state with which the German Reich had signed an armistice. which had just broken out with the United States of America, and there were thoughts of the report from the Polish Ambassador, Court Potowski, dated the 30th of January, 1939, which the Tribunal has forbidden to be read. me to be a personal injustice and recognized as every but that looking at it from the legal point of view I would like to point out in the document 1015-PS, under letter Y there is a letter from the chief of the Reichschancellery, which is dated December 31, 1941, and in which it says in a note for the files, dated 18 December 1941.
"This has been reported to the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer has concerned himself with the suggestion under 1 and has stated his principal agreement. A copy of that part of the file note will deal with the use of Jewish furniture, and it has been submitted to the chief of the supreme command of the armed forces and the Reich Commissioner for the occupied Netherlands together with a letter attached hereto in copy."
accepted, and it has been silently though emphatically stated that point 2, with reference to the suggestion, is turned down, which means that the whole suggestion had no legal consequences. Later on I referred again to this suggestion, and I must say that I had forgotten all about it until it was put before me once again.
Q I now turn to the subject "Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories". The Defendant is anxious that he may define his attitude to Molotov's note that he, the Defendant, was a Czarist spy, since this affects his personal character. I therefore ask the Defendant whether he has at any time had connection to the Czarist police.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, in the Indictment which has been presented to the Defendant Rosenberg no point incriminates him of having been a Czarist spy. Therefore, we consider that this question is irrelevant
DR. THOMA: The Molotov reports have been submitted to the Tribunal, and in that way they have been introduced in evidence. Consequently, I think that I may be permitted to put that question.
THE PRESIDENT: He has answered in the negative already, so you can pass from it, can't you? It has formed no part of the indictment.
DR. THOMA: Yes. BY DR. THOMA: occupied eastern territories or that you were proposed for this position, and what reasons were given you for having the task given to you? of April, as far as I can remember it was the 2nd of April, 1941, the Fuehrer called me in the morning and explained to me that he regarded a military clash with the Soviet Union as unavoidable. The reasons he quoted were two: firstly, the military occupation of Rumanian territory-that is to say, Bessarabia and North Bucovina; and, secondly, the long existing considerable increase in the strength of the Red Army along the line of demarcation and in Soviet Russian territory altogether.
These matters, he said, were co clear that he had given the corresponding military orders and that in every shape and form did he want to include me as a military advisor. Thus I was facing an accomplished fact, and any attempt even to discuss the matter was countered by the Fuehrer with the remark that the orders had been given and that nothing could be altered in the matter, so that I consequently told the Fuehrer in that case I wish the best of luck to the German armed forces and I am at your disposal for this political advice which you desire. since I didn't know whether the military events would be taking place very soon or later on. We discussed the possible treatment of the political problems and possible measures which may have to be taken in connection with the territories to be occupied in the east. We made a number of drafts, which have been submitted in this courtroom, and on the 20th of April I received a temporary task, which was the forming of a central department for the treatment of the eastern questions and the order to get into touch with the corresponding leading departments in the Reich in the matter. after he was nominated--which he drafted, rather--I should like to submit them to the Defendant. And I have yet another request to the Tribunal These instructions appear in their photostatic copy as being crossed out and bearing a number of remarks, and I have the request therefore that the Tribunal would take personal cognizance of the photostatic copies so that it can be seen how these instructions have been crossed out. I think the actual documents have been submitted to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: They have already been put in evidence?
DR. THOMA: Yes, they have been put in.
Q What is the USA number?
A There is 1028, which has the USA number 273; whereas document 1030 has the USA number 144. The other documents do not seem to have a USA number.
Q 1017 is USA 142; 1028 is USA 213; 1029 is USA 105; and 1030 is USA 144. Rosenberg. and according to a statement which is contained in the upper left-hand corner they originate from the end of April to the beginning of May. These provisional drafts did not go out at all, but as they are now crossed out and bear certainwritten remarks in the margin they contain statements regarding those points which were later on not passed by the Fuehrer. So that for that reason alone, particularly referring to the Ukraine, they couldn't have been sent out.
Territories had been formed, are unfortunately not available. They haven't concerning the Eastern problems.
I am sure you have extracts from that speech.
It is 1058-PS, USA 147.
THE PRESIDENT: 1058, was it?
DR. THOMA: Yes.
THE WITNESS: This is a document from which the prosecution has quoted made by the Soviet Prosecution; namely, that I was in favor of a systematic I do not wish to occupy the Tribunal's time by reading too much but perhaps I may read some paragraphs to justify myself.
It says in paragraph 2:
"Originally, Russian history was an entirely continental affair. 200 East.
The Russian traders and hunters have gone to the East as far as the Urals; some have gone to Siberia and the colonization of Siberia is no doubt one of the greatest deeds of the history of the world."
I think that this the East.
The next paragraph states: "This means the aim of Germany is the freedom of the Ukrainian people.
This must be made a political point of our program.
In what form and to what extent a Ukrainian State can be formed later, that is something which one cannot discuss now.
In that connection, great care must be employed; the literature regarding Ukrainian struggles must history can be revived.
A university could be founded in Kiev; technical high schools should be constructed.
The Ukrainian language should be furthered."
Caucasian territories and this is the verbatim quotation: "It would be the end of this solution to create a Caucasian National State.
One wall national existence and security."
Here, too, the wish for their destruction and has been described as a particularly serious incriminating factor.
It is the so-called colonization and the German property abroad.
This para graph is worded as follows:
"Quite apart from all these problems, there is the question which is of an equally general nature and which we must all think about; namely, the ques tion of the German national property; German national characteristics in that area have worked for hundreds of years.
The result of that work, amongst others, is considerable real estate property.
The property con Prussia; the entire real estate area of the Black Sea was as great at Wuerttemberg, Baden and Alsace together.
In the Black Sea area more land was cultivated than there was ploughed up in Great Britain.
These comparisons to any earlier individual owners.
Just how that may one day be compensated, can be created."
In a later paragraph it states: "We must declare in this connection
THE PRESIDENT: Are you still reading from 1058-PS?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I continue to quote the following paragraph: "We Russian people.
We, all of us, who knew the Russians earlier, knew that the "The fight for a reorganization, and continue openly in the sense of a national self determination of the peoples."
I shall save the Tribunal from listening to the end. I shall come to that in detail verbally.
I made that speech fully convinced that after my he must have agreed in principle.
I did not know, and he did not tell me, been practically impossible for me -- and particularly in Heydrich's presence, dencies Himmler and Heydrich held, as we heard them from the documents here;from this document, I have to say the following:
From amongst men working in In addition be that it was not clear how considerable the require-ments for market goods would be in the East and what the general food situation would be and what might have to be done due to the blockade and in the interests of German food supplies.
This was the prerequisite for the remark that under certain circumstances an increased evacuation of Russian territories might be necessary where the industrial workers might become increasingly unemployed and in connection therewith I should state at once that I am referring to the document 1056, which contains the first directives from the Ministry for Eastern Affairs and which deals in particular with food supplies for the population end which was made a particular duty for the Reich commissars. appointed to the Reich Minister for the Administration of Newly Occupied Territories. On the preceding day there was a conference between Hitler, Keitel, Goering and Lammers, during which you stated your program of administration. I refer to the document L-221, U.S.A. Exhibit 317. It is on page 123 in Rosenberg's document book two -- page 123. cord taken by Bormann, has, of course, been read in this Court four or five times. During that meeting I had actually not intende to state a large scale program, this meeting having actually been called for the purpose of resolving the wording of the intended Fuehrer decree, referring to the administration of the occupied territories and for the purpose of giving all persons concerned the possibility to state their views on that subject. of personal questions which I was going to report to the Fuehrer. I was surprised, therefore, when the Fuehrer passionately and at considerable length commenced to make a lengthy statement and made a number of unsuspected statements to me regarding the policy to be employed in the East. I was under the impression that the Fuehrer himself was under the influence of the unsuspectedly strong rearmament on the part of the Soviet Union and the hard struggle which was going on against the Red Armies.
That apparently was the cause for some of the statements made by the Fuehrer to which I may perhaps refer at the end.
unsuspected statements of the Fuehrer and talked against them and perhaps I may read from the record the following passages which have not been read out from the original document on page four:
"Reichsleiter Rosenberg emphasizes that in accordance with his views the Kommissariat would carry out a different treatment of the population. In the Ukraine we would have to take care of the culture. We must revise the historical consciensce of the Ukraine and found a university at Kiev and the like. The Reich Marshall makes the counter-statement that we have to think first of securing our food situation, everything else could come much later.
"(Incidental question: Is there still anything like an educated class in the Ukraine, or are upper-class Ukrainians rather to be found only as emigrants outside present day Russia?)
"Rosenberg continues that there were certain independence movements in the Ukraine which deserved promotion." the Fuehrer, where it says, and I quote:
"At the same time the Crimea, including a considerable hinterland, situated north of the Crimea, should become Reich territory; the hinterland should be as large as possible.
"Rosenberg complains about this because of the Ukrainians living there.
"(Incidental question again from Bormann: It has appeared to me several time that Rosenberg has a soft spot for the Ukrainians, thus he desires to enlarge the former Ukraine to a considerable extent." strengthening of the knowledge which I had and tried to persuade the Fuehrer to agree to the same points which I made in my speech on the 20th of January, 1941, before the heads of the service departments concerned.
Marshal in particular was interested in appointing the former Gauleiter Koch and that I opposed this candidate since I was afraid that Koch, in accordance with his temperament, might quickly disobey my directives being as far removed from the Reich as he would be. But, in connection with that request I could not have known that Koch by disobeying my directives would go as far as occurred later on and I should like to end right now, in considerably furthering the interests of the Party Chancellory.
there appears a passage which was not been read, which I am now Quoting. It is a lengthy discussion regarding the jurisdiction of the Reichsfuehrer SS.
"Obviously at the same time the participants have in mind the jurisdiction of the Reich Marshal." made by the head of the Party Chancellory and not by any means an actual record, an actual minute of the meeting.
I quote further:
"The Fuehrer, the Reich Marshal and others reiterate that Himmler was to have no greater jurisdiction than he had in Germany proper but this was absolutely necessary." discussion since not only during that conference out also before I had opposed the thought that the police were to have a legally independent executive authority in the occupied territories and were to be independent from the civil administration. I also spoke against the existing wording of the Fuehrer decree which had already been prepared. I did not find any support for my the units from anyone present and that is the explanation for the later developments and the wording of the decree which was signed on the following day by the Fuehrer which dealt with the entire administration in the occupied eastern territories. Eastern Territories and at the same time there were other appointments and the question now arises what was your jurisdiction and the extent of your activities. I refer to document 1997, page 46, Rosenberg volume two. appointment of the Eastern Ministry and paragraph three, which states as follows:
"Military sovereign rights and powers are exercised by the commanders of the armed forces in the newly occupied Eastern territories in accordance with my decree of 25 June, 1941. The powers of the Commissioner for the Four Year Plan in the newly occupied Eastern territories, according to my decree of 29 June, 1941, and those of the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police according to my decree of 17 July 1941, are subject to special ruling, and are not affected by the following regulations."
In Article 6 it states:
"At the head of each Reichskommissariat will be a Reich Commissioner--" and then come detailed remarks stating at the end that the Reich Commissioners and the General Commissioners will be appointed by the Fuehrer personally and that consequently they could not be given leave by me or relieved of their post.
to the Reich Minister and will receive instructions exclusively from him in cases where Article 3 is not applicable; that is the Paragraph 3 which refers to the Commanders of the Armed Forces and the Chief of the German police. the entire administration of their civilian territory. I quote the following paragraph:
"As long as military operations are in progress, the entire railway and postal arrangements must be under the jurisdiction of the ministries concerned." Occupied Eastern Territories, who is quoted as being a resident in Berlin, to, in the interest of the Reich, coordinate his wishes to those of other supreme authorities in the Reich; and that, in the event of differences of opinion, a decision from the Fuehrer must be sought. Forces to the Tribunal since it is sufficiently clear what we are concerned with, nor the decree regarding the powers of the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, dated the 29th of June '41, in which it is stated that the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, that is Reichmarshall G oering, has jurisdiction over all civilian and military departments and can given them instructions on matters of decisive importance. However, for the judgment of the entire legal suggestions in this connection and the consequences which arose from that later on, is the decree of the Fuehrer regarding the security to be achieved by the police in the Eastern Territories of July 17, 1941. It says under I as follows, and I quote:
"The police security in the newly occupied Eastern Territories is a matter for the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police." situation in the Eastern Territories which come under the jurisdiction of the Reichsfuehrer SS, who in that manner, next to the Reichminster of occupied Eastern Territories and alongside of the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, becomes the third independent central department and independent of the Reich in Berlin, with the result that the Ministers for Eastern Territories in his ministry did not have a Security or a Police Department in Berlin nor could he instal one.
from the obvious instructions he would give to his police, to issue directives to the civilian Reich Commissioners directly and that he is instructed that orders of politically great significance should transmitted through the Ministers for the Eastern Territories, being then that it concerned prevention of an immediate threat and danger. This worry gave the practical possibility to the Reichsfuehrer of the SS to make his own decision as to whether he considered it of political importance or not and when his orders with reference to prevention of any threats were concerned. Document 1056, on page 2,058 of the German record of the proceedings, have indicated to the Tribunal that there must be the impression that the Minister for Eastern Territories had units of the SS under his command in Eastern Territories. On the other hand, it appears from Paragraph I, which I have just quoted, that this is incorrect. But, in spite of that, a wording which is often used in connection with the powers of the SS has led to this misunderstanding: and this is mentioned under III of the Police Security Decree, and I quote as follows:
"For the carrying out of police security each Reich Commissioner will be Joined by a senior SS and Police Leader who will directly and personally subordinate to the Reich Commissioner. Leaders of the SS and the Police will be attached to the general commissioners, the chief and the area commissioners, who will be subordinated to them directly and personally."
Dr. Lammers, who had the task of drafting this decree, had replied, upon being asked, that the reason why this to wording was chosen was that they meant that the civilian Reich Commissioner could give instructions to the police in political matters, but that the choice of the wards "personally and immediate subordinate" indicated that the actual giving of orders was exclusively a matter for the Chief of the German Police.
And, as far as I know, Himmler insisted particularly strongly in this wording since it gave the impression to the outside and to the population that the Reich commissioner was achieving a certain unified administration, whereas, even legally and in practice, the power to issue orders bypassed the civilian administration and arrangements existed between Heydrich and the General Quartermaster of the Army, which are facts which I heard for the first time during this trial.