As far as the bourgeois side was concerned, we believed to be able to establish that some reactionary or privileged circles had worked to the detriment of the people, and also that the representation of national interest could not be based in certain strata; but, on the other hand, the demand of a national basis and a dignified representation would be the point of basis of this thought.
Therefore -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) Dr. Thoma, would you try and combine the witness to the charges which are against him? The charges against the defendants are not that they attempted to reconstruct Germany, but that they used this form of reconstruction with a view to attacking outside races and nations.
DR. THOMA: But, in my opinion, we have to have Rosenberg's thoughts to determine the motives for his actions, but I will ask him this: BY DR. THOMA: the question of labor and capital, that some questions were really international rather than just national, and why did you see a struggle against democracy, and why did you consider that as an international problem?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think this is a continuation of this same line of examination, and I should like to say that no one in the Prosecution has made any charge against this defendant for what he has thought. I think we are all, as a matter of principle, opposed to prosecuting any man for what he thinks. And I say with great respect that I feel very confident that is the attitude of this Tribunal. Therefore, we think it is entirely unnecessary to spell out whatever thoughts this defendant had on these subjects, or on any other, for that matter.
DR. THOMA: I believe that the defendant is also accused of fighting democracy, and I believe that I should put the question for that reason.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the question?
DR. THOMA: Why he was fighting democracy, why National Socialism and he himself fought democracy.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think that has anything to do with this case. The only question is whether he used National Socialism with a purpose of International offensives.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, National Socialism as a concept must be resolved into its constituents.
National Socialism was a fight against democracy. It was a one-sided emphasis of nationalism, and he must have the opportunity of saying just why National Socialism stood for militarism and whether that actually was the case. National Socialism must be shown in its concept so that we can see its constituents.
THE PRESIDENT: What National Socialism was has already been shown to the Tribunal, and he is not disputing the fact that there was a Fuehrer principle introduced into Germany. There is no question about that, why it was introduced. If it was introduced for solely internal purposes there would be no charge in respect of that. The only charges are that National Socialism was used for thepurpose of making aggressive war andperpetrating the other crimes which we have heard of.
DR. THOMA: The war of aggression was justified, in that it was an attack on democracy and t hat it was based on National Socialist -
THE PRESIDENT ( Interposing): Democracy outside Germany, not in Germany. BY DR. THOMA: question that National Socialism favored a master race. Prosecution, and I realize that from the point of view of the number of terrible happenings of the present, one will naturally fall back on the pent and will try to find the origin of the so-called Rassenkunde. I do believe that it is of decisive significance for the judging of this problem that one knows just what we were concerned with and what was at stake.
The word "Herrenrasse", master race, I have never heard as often as in this court room.. To my knowledge I did not use it at all in my writings, did not mention it at all. I again leafed through my speeches. I did not find this word. Only once did I speak of a master race as mentioned by Homer, and I found a quotation by a British author, who in speaking about the life of Lord Kitchener said the Englishman who End conquered the world had proved himself as a Herrenmensch, as a super men.
Then I found the word "Herrenrasse", master race, in a writing of the American scientist, Mendelson Grant, and of the French scientist, Lapouge. like to emphasize that the word "Herrenmensch" super man, in the course of my activity as Minister in the East came to my attention, and very unfavorably so. It was used by a number of the directors of economy and administration in the East. Perhaps when we came to the question of the East I may return to this problem in detail and state just what position I took toward these utterances as they came to my attention. the theory of race, was not an invention of the national Socialist movement but a biological find, as the conclusion of investigations of 400 years, as far as the laws of inheritance ore concerned, which were discovered in the 16th century, then were rediscovered later; that they would give a deeper insight into history than some other theories had made it possible to do.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, the defendant is going back now into the origin of the views which he held. Surely all we have got to consider here is his statements in speeches and in documents and they use to which he put the so statements, not as to whether they were 400 years old or anything of that sort.
DR. THOMA: The defendant just happened to speak about this concept, and I will take the opportunity to pass over to the socalled Jewish problem. I would like to ask the defendant the following question. How was it -GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, already my colleague, Mr. Dodd, pointed out that the Prosecution has submitted to the defendant an accusation, concretely stated. I suppose that the most correct pay of carrying on the interrogation on the part of Mr. Thoma would be to pose concrete questions with regard to charges brought against the defendant.
I don't suppose that the Tribunal intends to listen to a lecture on the racial theories or on National Socialism and other theories of the defendant.
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I will divide my attitude on questions later on, but since he is known as the ideologist of the Nazis and the philosopher of the Nazis, I think he should have the opportunity to state his views. Of course it is true, and perhaps it might be appropriate, Mr. Rosenberg, if you could be a little briefer in some respects. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Now I would like to ask you this: You believed that the so-called Jewish question in Europe could be solved in that the last Jew should leave the European Continent. At that time you stated it was immaterial whether such a program would find its realization in five years, ten years, or 20 years; it was, after all, just a matter of commmunication. And you emphasized having this question put before an International committee. How did you arrive at this conclusion and this opinion, and why did you arrive at this opinion? What I waited to say was, how did you see a solution in the fact that the last Jew should leave Europe? not give a lengthy exposition of my views. My views I arrived at through a study of history, but I did not study anti-Semitic works. I studied Jewish historians themselves. in the course of national movements of the 19th Century, also the Jewish people would try to fall back on its tradition and its special character. The problem of one people against another was a problem. It was a problem which had been discussed at laternational Congresses, and as a lender on the soil of Asia the Jews were to be returned to the soil of Asia, for there the roots of Jewish blood and of Jewish tradition were to be found.
But as far as the political measures are concerned, I had observed matters of this sort in Russia and in Germany, and I came to the view that this view was a correct one.
I could not quite comprehend how at that time, when the German soldiers returned to their homeland, they were greeted by a Jewish professor's saying that the German soldiers had died on the field of dishonor. I could not understand that such lack of respect could go so far. If that had just been a statement by one single individual, then one could have said that it was a single excess, but it showed, during the course of 14 years, that a certain different will was exerting itself.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, let us talk about something else. Do you believe that a contradiction was called for by certain utterances by the press as far as National Socialism is concerned, that their position brought about a contradiction of the other side and a reply? had already appeared as far as the readers at Munich were concerned, and in Hungary National Socialism could arise.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, how can you explain the fact that in the First World War 12,000 Jewish soldiers died at the front? citizens and that each tragic aspect arose in this development, and, of necessity, there had to be an understanding, but this did not apply to the social and political movement, especially since in decisive organs of the so-called Democratic Party, increasing unemployment was seen in Germany. The suggestion was made that Germans be sent to the French colonies, to Argentina and to China. This suggestion was made by prominent Jewish people, and the chairman of the Democratic Party made suggestions three times, and they favored the deportation of Germans to Africa and Asia to alleviate the rising unemployment. In 14 years many Germans were displaced from Poland without the League of Nations taking any effective steps in favor of these minorities.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, you were the leader of the Foreign Political Office of the Party. What was your function? taking over of power. Many foreigners came to Germany in order to find out set up a nucleus and the Fuehrer instructed me to take over this office.
It had the mission of receiving foreigners who were interested in these problems, of instructing them, of telling them about the various fields of the Party, of the State, and as far as questions of the youth were concerned, about health and other problems that interested them.
Then, as far as suggestions were made to us, we were interested in treating these suggestions, and if they had any merit, transmitting these proposals to the interested departments of the government. investigations and later research we would have ample archives to keep the Party informed politically about the foreign press. Among other things, I was accused of having written articles for the Hearst press. Idid publish some them es in the year '34-'35, but after I met Hearst for about 20 minutes at Nauheim, I did not see him again and I imagine that the Hearst syndicate would have come into difficulty on account of my articles. steps? Political Office have been submitted and discus sed, and I could give a brief summary to the Tribunal about this activity. as the leader of the Foreign Political Office as far as an active agreement or understanding between European nations was concerned. which he mentioned his foreign political opinions and convictions and said that at least some nations could not be interested in coordination. He meant England and Italy. After that time I agreed with him, and through my personal contacts I tried to find a way for understanding between nations.
I talked with people of the British General Staff. I had the opportunity of speaking with them repeatedly, and on their invitation I visited London in 1931, and at that time talked in private with British personalities. the topic "Europe" was discussed and I had the opportunity of speaking. I made a speech about this problem, and my thought in t hat speech was that the development of the last several centuries had been determined by four states and peoples, England, France, Germany, and Italy, and that first of all these four should limit their vital interests so that theycould defend the venerable continent of Europe and its traditions.
I believed that these four nations were the bearers of that tradition. translated for the Tribunal. Italy, Sir Rannall Rodd, come to me and told me that he had Just left Mussolini and he had said that the most important words of the conference had been spoken by me, Rosenberg.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, Please try to be more brief. Hitler, and I visited a number of British ministers whose names are not important here, and tried again to bring about an agreement on the sudden, estranging influence in Germany, My reception was rather reserved, and some incidents occurred which showed that a rather contrary sentiment was at work, but that did not prevent me from keeping up these personal contacts and from meeting many British personalities and inviting them to Germany. Officially, I did not have instructions.
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you ask t he defendant that the agreement was to be about? Why doesn't he tell us what the agreement was to be about instead of going on talking about an agreement in the abstract?
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I asked the defendant that England and and worked toward it.
The defendant is accused -
THE PRESIDENT: But what was it about?
DR. THOMA: We were concerned with the fact that the
THE PRESIDENT: I don't want you to tell me.
DR. THOMA: I have already asked him Mr. President. BY DR. THOMA:
Q How did you meet Quisling, Mr. Rosenberg? and I had a discussion of 20 minutes' duration with him. Then a collaborator of mine, who was interested in Scandinavian culture and who was a poet, co responded with Quisling. During the following six years I did not see Quisling, and I did not intervene in Norwegian problems nor in the Quisling matter. In June of 1933, when the tension in Europe was very critical, he visited mo and told me of his concern for the situation of Norway. He said it was to be feared who them Nor way could remain neutral, and that his home country would be occupied in the North by Soviet troops and in the South by the troops of the Western powers. He considered these matters with great concern. were given to Dr. Lammers.
Q When was that?
A That must have been in June 1939. Thereupon Quisling was a collaborator for German-Norway agreement; and especially through propaganda, he wanted to make the movement known in Norway.
In August some Norwegians were here. They were to work for propaganda.
They were then brought back.
Q Just What were they trained in, and how? they were trained as to how a more effective propaganda could bi carried on and how the organization of the Party had been organized and worked out in Germany. We were to help when along those lines. before than, an acquaintance of Quisling came to me and mentioned the same concern as Quisling had expressed to me. After the outbreak of the war, this collaborator of Quisling mentioned all sorts of details about the activity of the Western Powers in Norway. Berlin. He made the statement that, on the basis of his exact knowledge of things, he know that it was just a sham neutrality on Norway's part, that in actuality the departure from neutrality was known.
Quisling had been a former Minister of War in Norway, and therefore he had to have exact knowledge of these things. I told him, as a German citizen, that the Fuehrer should hear Quisling.
The Fuehrer then received Quisling twice. Quisling, with his collaborator Hagelin, visited-- Pardon me. I made a speech at that time, and in this speech I suggested to the Fuehrer that he listen to the speech.
Q You personally transmitted only reports which Quisling gave you? was not interested in these things for six years -- Quisling visited me. I hade to consider it my duty, of course, that reports about the military threatening of Germany, if correct, would have to be known to the Fuehrer. to bring about a political change and to ask Germany for support -- I noted these things so that I could report them to the Fuehrer. more precisely than I can state them here. However, I can summarize this. of Norway -
DR. THOMA: This was compiled in a comprehensive document. I would like to call the attention of the Tribunal to this document.
It was compiled immediately after the Norway action, and it describes the measures unequivocally: that everything came from Quisling, that Quisling suddenly appeared, that he gave reports, that he begged that his people be trained further, and that he came back again, came back again and again, and he also told Rosenberg about the new incident in Norway.
THE PRESIDENT: What document is that?
DR. THOMA: No. 004, GB-40. That is in document book 2, page 113.
THE PRESIDENT: What page, please?
DR. THOMA: I believe the number is at the bottom, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Which book is it you are referring to?
DR. THOMA: My document book number 2, page 113; volume 2. The page given at the bottom is page 70. It is at page 72 in the English translation.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the, what is your question?
DR. THOMA: I would like to point out that on page 1 it says that before the meeting of the Norwegian Wissenschaftler in Luebeck, Quisling was at Berlin, where he was received by Rosenberg.
That was in June 1939, as is shown by the document 007.
given at Berlin Dahlem. Then it says further that in December of 1939 Quisling, on his own accord, reappeared in Berlin and at that time he made reports. That was on the 14th and 15th of December. Rosenberg, in line with his duty, transmitted these reports to the Fuehere; that is, the reports given to himby Quisling. However, he did nothing beyond that in this matter. reports came in. BY DR. THOMA:
Q Do you have anything to add on 004-PS?
A May I please be shown the document?
The document was submitted to the witness) A (Continuing) On page 3, of this document 004-PS, it is stated that Hagelin, who was a collaborator of Quisling, and who traveled in Norwegian governmental circles, had instructions from theNorwegian Government concerning the supply of arms to Germany.
After the Altmark incident there was a discussion with Norwegian representatives, that the reserved position taken by Norway had been a matter of course. center of the page, he was present. There wassome discussion about German supply. He mentioned the activity of the Allies in Norway, and he made statements on that. According to this report, the Allies now were investigating the Norwegian harbor towns for landing and transport possibilities. The French Commandant Kermarrec--I might say that I remember this name as Karramac, or something similar--had had a confidential conversation with Colonel Sundlo, the Commandant of Norway, who was a follower of Quisling. They had informed him about the intention of the Allies to land motorized troops at Stavanger, Drontheim, and perhaps also at Kirkenes, and to occupy the airport at Sola.
he pointed out--that is, Hagelin pointed out--that the speech of the Norwegian Foreign Minister Koht, dealing with Norwegian neutrality and containing some protests, was not being taken seriously either in London by the English, or in Norway by the Norwegians, because it was well known that the Government had no intention of taking aserious stand against England.
Q That is the report Quisling told you?
to report. I would like to add further that after Quisling was received by the Fuehrer he told me that a little while later he had instructed OKW to contemplate this case in a military way, and he asked me not to talk about this matter further. In this connection I would like to point out also that we can see from the report that he emphasized that the entire Scandinavian north was to maintain neutrality at all- costs, and his position was to be changed only in case other powers threatened the Nordic countries. Fuehrer to keep up or maintain connections with Quisling at Oslo and to support propaganda friendly to Germany as against other propaganda. He received money from the foreign office and some reports about opinions of Quisling came to Germany. Later I heard something which was entirely understandable--that the callaborator, who was a soldier at that time, had received military reports and instructions which he reported on afterwards.
Q Please be more brief, Mr. Rosenberg. decided to carry through this action, that he did not tell me. The entire action of the 9th of November I learned through the newspaper. I visited the Fuehrer, visited him that day, and several weeks later the Fuehrer had me called to him and said that he had to make this decision on the basis of concrete warnings which he had received and, it has been seen from documents which have been found that these warnings had been correct, and it had been true to the letter that the last German ships, when they arrived in the fiord of Trondheim had to fight the approaching British forces.
Q I have just one question more: Did you ever attend foreign politic or military discussions with Hitler? and the initiative which would come from one side or another. I believe -and I believe all the documents show this -- that he never permitted me to participate in any foreign political or military discussion.
Q That is, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Russia, etc. You were never called into these discussions.
I believe, Mr. President, that is a suitable time to adjourn.
The Tribunal adjourned until 16 April 1946 at 1000 hours.)
BY DR. THOMA (counsel for Rosenberg):
Q Mr. Rosenberg, you were the plenipotentiary of the Fuehrer for the supervision of the entire spiritual and ideological education of the NSDAP and all its affiliated organizations. In that capacity, did you exert any influence on the law-making authorities in that connection? far as the leadership of a large movement of a state was concerned, three points of view had to be kept in mind; that there are men who, according to their nature, would meet problems on a basis of contemplated thought and he would have to select from whatever their thoughts would be--something that could be realized, and the other people would have the task to take the problem and the thoughts as they had been produced by the thinkers and to realize them in economic and stately ways. Then he listed my task in this sense and entrusted to me the supervision of education in such a sense, that in a comprehensive basis, because of my knowledge of the movement, I should take a definite and specific position. As far as the executive power and other powers were concerned, that was in the hands of the corresponding ministries; that is, the Ministry of Education, the Propaganda Ministry, and the entire representation of the Party was in the hands of the Party Chancellory. The Party Chancellory on occasion asked me to define my position to such and such a question but was not obligated to give my position any consideration except my views.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, did you have any influence on the school policies of the Nazi Party?
A I did not have any direct influence on the school system. The school system was a matter of the Reichserziehungsministerium--the Educational Ministry and the organization of the schools are not to be confused with the training of the Party and as far as the universities were concerned, that was the task for the corresponding ministry rather than mine.
Q There were National socialized educational centers. Can you tell me something about the centers and what was your function in that connection? They were under the leadership and direction of the Educational Ministry and of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. They were founded by Himmler, so that a dissident stratum would be trained and the inspection of these educational systems was centered in the Ministry of Education by special SS leaders.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, you are accused of religious persecution and especially as expressed in your "Myth of the 20th Century". Do you admit that as far as your attitude towards the church is concerned, that perhaps on occasion you were a little too critical and too severe? concerned, I uttered rather severe and critical judgments. I would like to emphasize in this connection, that in the introduction to my book, which I earmarked as a purely personal work, I gave my personal opinion only and that this book was not addressed to the church-going population and I also mentioned in my introduction that I did not have anything to do with propaganda, as is shown on page 120 of the document; and further, that I rejected a political attack in religious confessions by the State--all of these facts I expressed not only in the introduction but also in the book and I further rejected many proposals to have my book translated into foreign languages. A Japanese translation was submitted to me but I do not recall having given my approval for the translation.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, you were not trained in theological matters. Don't you believe that in some judgments as to theological questions, you were wrong?
and dealt with many problems, was entirely without mistake or error. I was very grateful to receive counter-proposals to my book and made some corrections to it, but some attacks on my book I could not consider justified. I thought later that perhaps the work of mine would, be revised at a later time. theological and political opponents?
A No. I would like to state here that this work was published two and one-half years before the taking over of power and that any and all criticism from all sides were invited but much in the way of criticism came in after the taking over of power. I answered the attack on my book in two brochures but never at any time did I use the police to intimidate or in any way oppress my opponents.
Q Mr. Rosenberg, in the RSHA there was an office for the persecution of political churches. Did you have any connection with this department or office? offices and departments and I know, of course, that they had connections and were in touch with the SS. Through this collaborator, I received many circular letters from churches and the circular letter of the Fulda Conference of Bishops and many more similar matters but these special arrests of some special church leaders did not come to my attention although, of course, later on I did find out that during the war some monasteries had been confiscated and their confiscation having taken place for state and political reasons.
I never was able to find out the political reasons involved in each and every case.
I must mention that in the year 1935 the case was such that a bishop sent an official memorandum on to the State Leader of the province and asked him to prohibit me from making any speeches in that province. That, of course, did not take place but this church dignitary was not harmed either through me or any other department. eastern provinces? eastern territories the Wermacht of its own accord as far as religious freedom was concerned, reinstated religious freedom and when I was made Minister of the East through a special church tolerance edict at about the end of 1941 I established that religious freedom which existed under the Wehrmacht on an official, lawful basis. disposal, most of them letters of the Leader of the Party Chancellory and on these they base their contention of religious persecution on your part. tude as far as these documents are concerned. These documents have been submitted. They are number 107, 116, 122, 129 and 101, U.S.A. 351, U.S.A. 365.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, you are going too fast for us to get these numbers down. 107- PS, do you mean?
DR. THOMA: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you kindly say PS if you mean 107-PS,
DR. THOMA: Yes, I was going to add the U.S.A. Exhibit number, 107-PS, 351-U.S.A.-
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I would rather have the PS number, if you will give me the PS number or whatever the numbers are as part of the exhibit number. 107-PS -
DR. THOMA: Yes, 116-PS, 122-PS, 129-PS, 101-PS, 100-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not get those after 129-PS.
DR. THOMA: 101-PS, 100-PS, 008, 064, 098, 073, 070.
THE WITNESS: The number 107 is being used by the Prosecution as proof of my persecution of the churches. This was a letter sent out by the Party Chancellory regarding the Reichsarbeitsdienst, (Reich Labor Service). tice of religious observance is to be prohibited. I believe it was so decreed so that young people of a spiritual background who were brought into the Labor Service in this way would be prevented from participating in religious and spiritual debates.
On page 2 it says:
"As little as it is the affair of the Reichsarbeitsdienst to forbid its individual members to have a church wedding or funeral, so definitely must the Reichsarbetisdienst avoid taking part, as an organization, in a festival which is strictly religious, that is, which excludes Germans of other beliefs." freedom for it meant that members of the Protestant faith could not be forced to attend a Catholic service and vice versa. I also felt that any members who did not prescribe to any religious denomination could not, on order of their organization, be forced to attend religious services. There, I cannot see that in this ease we are concerned with religious persecution at all. Leader of the Reichschancellory. It is sent to the Reich Minister for Science and Education. It is dated the 24th of January, 1939 This document was submitted to me for my acknowledgement. regarding the limitation of theological faculties at universities and it emphasized that the agreements or church concordats would have to be taken into consideration. Furthermore, a certain collaboration had to exist in the entire higher educational system as a comprehensive simplification was necessary.
In conclusion, it states that newly established areas of research such as research into race and into ancient cultures were to be given special consideration.
I could see that after six years of National Socialism new areas of research should be include and should have special consideration. I thought that they should have and I personally was interested in seeing that the areas of sociology and naturally the history of Germany and allied fields receive consideration.
The same applies to Document 122-Ps, dated April, 1939. I do not need to go into this in detail. It sets forth similar views. The views are set down by the Minister for Education and it emphasizes just what is to be done with theological faculties.