DR. KAUFFMANN: My question was directed toward paragraph seven, especially the last sentence, from which one could gather that the socalled extermination of Jews was meant in this paragraph and I tried to bring about a connection between this question and the previous answer of the witness, which is my last.
THE PRESIDENT: The last sentence of paragraph seven is with reference to the foul and nauseating stench. What is your question about that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Whether the population could gather from these things that an extermination of Jews was going on at that place.
THE PRESIDENT: That really is too obvious a question, isn't it? They could not possibly know who it was being exterminated.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions,
DR. PANNENBECKER (Counsel for defendant Frick): I ask the permission of the High Tribunal to ask further questions for during cross-examination the witness stated that the defendant Frick had visited Sachsenhausen and Oranienburg. BY DR. PANNENBECKER: there any evidence of atrocities at that time at Oranienburg?
Q Why not? camp at Oranienburg was a model of order and efficiency and that labors for the cultivation of the last were taking place? wood timber. tour were shown at that period?
AAn inspection tour was taken throughout the camp; kitchens were visited, billets, the hospital and all administrative and economic buildings and the areas where the inmates or detainees were working.
Q At that time were billets overflowing, were they overpopulated?
Q How did these billets look, the living accommodations? the some as in a barracks. The internees had bedclothing, sheets and all hygenic facilities which were required and were in the best of order.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Thank you, I have no further questions. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): at any one time? nine hundred.
Q What was the population of these nine hundred? starting with one hundred internees up to ten thousand internees but I cannot give any figure of the total number of people who were in these labor camps. offices? was concerned, attached to the main economic and administration office. As far as labor and food supply was concerned, the armament firms who were employing these laborers were charged with that part of the responsibility. camps similar to the condition in the concentration camps which you described a little earlier? regular concentration camps, Therefore, there was an overpopulation and the death rate was very high in these labor camps.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
Dr. Kauffmann, does that close your case?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I wish to call another witness with the permission of the Court, that is witness Neubacher.
Hermann Neubacher, a witness took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated oath.) BY DR. KAUFFMANN: war? missions. Before the war I was Mayor of the City of Vienna.
Q Did you know the defendant Kaltenbrunner?
Q How long have you known him? with the so-called appeasement action of the Engineer Reinthaler. I met him in Austria, Later I saw him again, after the Anschluss. RSHA. Are you acquainted with that fact?
Q Do you know whether Kaltenbrunner wanted to take this position? he did not wish to take that position, that he had declined three times but had received a military order to accept. He added that he had received a promise to be relieved of this office after the war. position he took toward his task in the RSHA?
A As far asofficial contact is concerned, I had repeated conversations with him in his office, but that was concerned with foreign intelligence and foreign policy.
Q Witness, the RSHA was the superior of the Gestapo. Are you familiar with that fact? far as the taking over of the power of the police executive, did he have any special capacity or adaptability or previous training? training or knowledge when he assumed his office. In the year 1941 he wanted to leave the police.
Q What clues do you have for that statement? in Rumania. Kaltenbrunner told me that he did not like police work, did not know anything about police work and furthermore, had no interest for it. He was largely interested, however-
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that is really evidence which ought to be given. I cannot affect his official position, the fact he did not like it.
Q Kaltenbrunner was called the successor of Heydrich. Does that term apply in its full sense to Kaltenbrunner?
THE PRESIDENT: That's a matter of argument. This witness's opinion cannot affect the position of Kaltenbrunner. This witness cannot testify whether he was called a successor to Heydrich or another Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The prosecution contends and speaks of Kaltenbrunner as the successor of the notorious Heydrich. Speaks of that in a negative way.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has already admitted that he was the successor of Heydrich. You may ask him if he was another Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Please, will you tell me whether he could be called a second Heydrich?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that that is incompetent.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Very well. I beg your pardon, I misunderstood. I will pass to the next question. preference to anyone else?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that the witness can give any evidence as to what Himmler thought. Himmler appointed him.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness, so far as I am told, knows and can tell of a conversation with Himmler out of which we can conclude that Himmler selected Kaltenbrunner for he did not fear Kaltenbrunner in any way. The Prosecution contends exactly the opposite. The exact opposite. This man knows from the words of Himmler that the contention of the Prosecution is entirely incorrect.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you cannot ask what Himmler said about his appointment, if he said anything to this witness. You can ask him what did Himmler say about the appointment to Kaltenbrunner.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Please begin, witness.
THE WITNESS: During the course of a conversation with Himmler when I was at his office at Headquarters, looking at the death made of Heydrich, Himmler said to me that he had, "through the death of this man, suffered an irreparable loss.
After Heydrich, no one person could direct the tremendous office which Heydrich had had, only he who had developed this system could direct it and lead it." Upon my question, "What about Kaltenbrunner?" Himmler said: "Of course you are interested in that matter because you are Austrian. Kaltenbrunner will have to work his way into the office. He is diligently concerned with matters with which you are concerned. With foreign intelligence." Those were the statements made by Himmler. office in the year of 1943, Kaltenbrunner was diligently concerned with negotiations abroad? looking for a so-called negotiation with the enemy Feindgespraech. He was of the opinion that we should not come out of this war without the use of foreign political measures. I did not speak about particulars about the war in Germany, Everyone was sentenced to death who even doubted the victory of Germany and mentioned his doubt to just one other person. mitigate the terror regime in Siberia?
A Yes, I am grateful to the support of Kaltenbrunner. I owe him much in this direction. The German police officers in Siberia knew, through me and through Kaltenbrunner, that Kaltenbrunner, as chief of the foreign intelligence service, supported my policy in the southeast area without reserve, therefore, it was possible that he could influence the police officers there and the support by Kaltenbrunner and from Kaltenbrunner was very valuable in my endeavors so that with the help of officers, that a system of collective responsibility, as far as reprisals were concerned, could be done away with. question?
then briefly. That was on the occasion when rumors of systematic action increased. I asked Kaltenbrunner what his thoughts were in this connection. Kaltenbrunner very briefly told me that that was a special action which was not subordinate to him. He kept his distance from this action as far as I was concerned, and I believe some time later, at the end of 1944, he told me once and very briefly, as far as the treatment of Jews was concerned, a new way was being followed. He said that with the voice of a man who is proud of his successes.
Q Kaltenbrunner is called "hungry for Power." Do you know what kind of a life he led?
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution hasnot called him "hungry for power." There is no charge against him as being "hungry for power."
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, the actual words in the Prosecution are "hungry for Power and cruel". Both of these words are used.
THE PRESIDENT: But being "hungry for power" or "cruel is quite different.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, of course. I am just asking about the first term.
THE PRESIDENT: I was just wondering where these terms were used.
DR. KAUFFMANN: In the indictment both of these terms are used. "Hungry for power and cruel." Both of them.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): It certainly isn't in the indictment. We find no allegation in the indictment which reads "hungry for power and cruel," and we do not recollect any mention being made in the statement in the Prosecution's case.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I would not have had notes taken on it if it had not been so. In the Indictment, your Honor, there is a page under the heading "Summary and Conclusion." I am referring to the last paragraph on that page where it says:
"As all other Nazis, Kaltenbrunner was desirous of power in order to assure himself of power he signed his name in blood -- a name which will remain in memory as a symbol for cruelty and ...."
THE PRESIDENT: Where are you reading from? That are you reading from?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am quoting the indictment on the last page under the heading "Summary and Conclusion"
MR. DODD: I think I can clarify the matter. It is rather clear that the Counsel is reading from my trial brief. The trial brief was never offered in evidence in court, but it was handed to the counsel.
DR. KAUFFMANN: If I am not upheld on this point, I have no further questions on that point.
I am now passing to another point. Do you know, witness, whether Kaltenbrunner, gave an order for the action of concentration camps? and observations, did he, as a chief of this office, do everything so that that measure of inhumanity would, be mitigated? years and as far as the domestic and internal development of Germany is concerned, I am not in a position to make extensive observations. As I have come to know; Kaltenbrunner, I do not doubt that he gave way to the illusion that he would be in a position to influence the course that Heydrich had taken.
Q Do you know of a case against pressure by the police, where ho used his power so that two church dignitaries in Serbia--that is, two dignitaries of the Serbian Church--were liberated?
A Yes, I knew about that incident. These two church dignitaries--
THE PRESIDENT: How is this relevant to Kaltenbrunner?
DR. KAUFFMANN: He is accused of having persecuted the churches. The Prosecution expressly accuses Kaltenbrunner of persecuting churches, with the objective of annihilation of Christianity. I can say this with assurances: This is contained in records, and with this question I am referring to those records.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer to it cannot answer any charge against Kaltenbrunner, can it?
DR. KAUFFMANN: If the defendant wished to exterminate churches, then he would not take measures which would, in fact, be opposite to that policy. And this witness will be able to attest to this fact.
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to churches or with reference to individual people?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Particular people as representatives of the church as a whole. I do not believe you can separate the principle from the people.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the question is incompetent.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn (A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Military Tribunal in the matter of: The
THE PRESIDENT: Had you finished, Dr. Kauffmann?
DR. KAUFFMANN: My questions to this witness are finished.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defense want to ask questions?
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendant FUNK): Mr. President, I have same questions to put which are, of course, not in any way connected with Kaltenbrunner, but which refer to subjects which will later appear during the case for the defendant Funk. Since the witness is going to appear or can appear only once, of course I have no other possibilities but to put the questions to the witness now, which would, of course, be more applicable later on. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you had said to 'ay that the German Foreign Office or the Foreign Service had used you for economic questions and sent you to Rumania. I it correct that during the time you were working in Roumania, you were also handling the economic interests and dealing with economic questions in Greece?
A. In the autumn of 1942, I received the task, apart from the orders had for Roumania, that I should, together with a financial expert from Italy Minister D'Agostino, go to Greece and bring about the total liquidation of currency and reorganization of currency and economic system that should be prevented, by us.
Q. Witness, according to your training and your previous activities, were you suited for such a very difficult task? Please will you tell us the very briefly, and tell us which posts you had filled before so that we can form a picture whether you could cope with this task in Greece, but please, witness, be very brief.
A. I was one of the first economic leaders in Austria; at the age of twenty-eight I was a director; and at thirty I was the general manager of the Viennese Settling Corporation. At the age of thirty-three I was leading a concern in the building trade. I was a functionary and executive of the Austrian National Bank and a member of the Austrian Customs Consul . I was a member of the Russian Credit Committee of the Town of Vienna; and I was a member of the Export Commission for the liquidation of the Austrian Credit Department. So, I had considerable economic practice and experience for the task. to me since I had last worked on economic questions relating to the Balkans in the central administration of the I.G. Farben in Berlin.
Q. Witness, several days ago , when I visited you here in prison, I submitted, to you a report from the Royal Greek Government, addressed to the International Military Tribunal, and I asked you to read it and state your views. Is it correct what is said, in this document? Is that correct?
DR. SAUTER: It is, Mr. President, document USSR 358, and it has the further number UK-28.
Q. (Continued) In this report of a commission the picture is created as if in some way German authorities -- and this goes back to the defendant Funk in the end -- had totally destroyed the Greek economic system, and it appears as if Greece had been exploited, and all that sort of thing. Please don't go into detail, but tell us briefly what your impression has been in this connection.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, General Rudenko.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, I would like to make the following statement for the Tribunal: In regard to the report of the Greek Government, which was presented before the Tribunal by the Soviet Prosecution as provided by Article 29 of the Charter, -- it seems to me that the question of 1 defense counsel, asking the witness to give his opinion on this particular matter, should be rejected because the witness is not competent to give his opinion in regard to the report of the Greek Government.
The defense counsel can ask him a concrete question in regard to any particular fact, but that is all.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, if it is desired, I can, of course, put tie questions individually, but of course, it will probably take a little longer but, if the Soviet Russian Prosecution does desire that, I shall be agreeabl I may ask the witness, therefore -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Dr. Sauter, what exactly is it that you want to ask the witness about this report?
DR. SAUTER: In this report from the Greek Government, which has been submitted by the Russian Prosecution, it is stated that, country.
Also, that the country had been charged undue occupahad been handicapped severely, and all that sort of thing. himself with those problems in Greece, that these statements are partly true.
Also, that this state of affairs existed already when the German troops marched, in, so that they weren't created by Germany.
And, lastly, that the defendant Funk, particularly,
THE PRESIDENT: Well, can't you puta few short questions was in accordance with international law and was not unfair to Greece?
If you could do that, that would meet the case, wouldn't it?
DR. SAUTER: Yes. That is what I wanted to do, and I am BY DR. SAUTER:by Greece?
Minister; von Scwerin-Krosigk, and it was proposed that at some Q And as early as the war, how was the question of this clearing arrangement treated?
A Regarding the economic events in Greece. I can only give you any information on that based on my own observations, starting with October 1942. At that time, when I first went to Athens, the Greek currency him alreadybeen considerably affected anddestroyed, since the bank notes had increased by something like 3,000 per cent. apart from a progressing inflation an attempt had been made to transfer a German system to Greece according to German experiences. That had the consequence, of course, that the vendors of Greek goods, when they were paid later on, suffered certain losses, whereas, on the other hand, the importers of German goods, because they bought the Mark at the rate of 60 and paid it into clearings, with the rate for the selling price something like 3,000, made tremendous profits. introducing a German system in Greece, could only be stopped by transferring the black market increase into a free market. success, at the end of October 1941. Within a very few weeks all shops and markets were full of goods and rations, and the prices for food dropped to one-fifth, whereas industrial products were reduced to one-tenth. This success, in spite of increasing inflation, could be maintained for four months.
Q Dr. Neubacher, is it true that the defendant Funk, who was Reich Economic Minister at that time, did tell you during conversations or stated in correspondence he had with you that he was interested in seeing to it that in spite of the shortage of goods in Germany, a considerable amount of goods should be sent from Germany and other European countries particularly to Greece? task, and I agreed perfectly that a maximum of goods should be transported to Greece, and not only food -- I had secured 60,000 tons at that time -but also German export articles, since it was hopeless that an inflation or the result of an inflation should be stopped and the effect on prices if no goods were available.
Minister Funk dealt with exports to Greece from the viewpoint of an improvement of the economic situation there and supported it with every means at his disposal. from Germany to Greece had become impossible, made considerable efforts to try to see that goods should be transported on neutral ships, which idea was to be carried out if Britain were to give a safeguard to these ships; and that by means of these transports from Germany to Greece the famine in Greece was to be alleviated?
A I think that between 1941 and 1942 when I hadn't got to Greece yet that these events took place. In 1943 when shipping in Greek waters had come to an end for us, because all ships had been torpedoed and when railroads had become subject to sabotage and dynamiting and blowing up, I, with the help of the Swedish Ambassador, Alar, who was leading the International Relief for Greece, applied for British safeguard for transport to Greece of food supplies. The British agreed to this application, and when our means of transport had ceased to exist they used the Swedish boat "Halaren" once a year, loaded with German food supplies for Greece. actions, didn't he? question, a question which is unique in the economic world, and he has supported me in my efforts with every means at his disposal. Funk made particular efforts so that the occupation costs should be kept as low as possible, and that he was making efforts to achieve a point of view by which it would be better that a considerable share of occupation costs should be booked down to German accounts so that Greece shouldn't he overburdened too much financially? What do you know about that? situation in Greece was reported by me at intervals to Reich Minister Funk, and I know that he made my reports the basisfor his own influence, the influence he exercised.
He was perfectly aware of the fact that the Greek economic problem during the war and within the blockade was so terribly difficult that all efforts had to be made to prevent a complete dissolution of the food system and economic system in Greece, and he influenced that at all times.
currency, Drachma, was destroyed or that it deteriorated, or did he, to the contrary, act in the interest of supporting and backing the Greek currency, particularly for the purpose of preventing a catastrophe and a famine? Please say briefly what you knowabout that.
A Reichsminister Funk always made efforts in the latter sense.
He proved it by forcing exports to Greece, and finally, in accordance with the Four-Year Plan, which was making the most colossal sacrifice which was possible in Germany, namely the surrender of a considerable amount of gold for the purpose of slowing down the Greek inflation.
Q You say "a considerable amount of gold". We in Germany, as you know, had very little gold during the war. Can you tell us how large the amount of gold was which the defendant Funk sent to Greece at that time for the purpose of backing the Greek currency and for the purpose of preventing; the catastrophe? How much gold was it? ceived 1.3 million gold pounds to back the currency, and more than 1 million gold pounds of that went to Athens.
Q And now, Witness, I have a last question. Is it correct that particularly through Greek merchants all these efforts on the part of German economic chiefs and the German Minister of Economy were often prevented iron being successful, and that, to quote just one example, cases happened where German factories more selling German engines for 60 drachmas to Greek merchants, which 60 drachma had no value, and that Greek businessmen more selling these same motors which they were buying for 60 drachma from Germany to the German armed forces for 60,000 drachma apiece? These are supposed to be cases which you have ascertained and on which you have reported to the defendant Funk, and that is why I an asking; you whether that is true.
A On that, I have to make the following remarks. That did, in fact, happen, but I want to state that the Greek businessmen had to act like that. That was one of the consequences of inflation and the black market. inflation. Every child there is a businessman, and that is why the only method which was possible was that of obvious speculation which in itself is not amoral. It was a method of transferring the black market into a free market by means of of purely economic measures, and that was the end of those measures.
after all was a problem which also arose in France and played an important part, was solved by your activity in coordination With the defendant Funk? At the end of October of 1942 we started it.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you very much, Witness.
Mr. President, I have no further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for Seyss-Inquart): Mr. President, High Tribunal, for your information I an going to ask questions With reference to the Anschluss. BY DR. STEINBAUER: activities. Weren't you also active politically? Austro-German People's Union.
Q What were the aims of that Austro-German National Union?
A The Austro-German people's Union was an institution which stood above parties and religions, which was active in a one-sided manner, having the aim of bringing about a revision of the Anschluss Clause in the peace treaties and to solve the question of the Austro-German Anschluss by means of a plebescite and by peaceful means. In the committee of this Austro-German people's Union, all parties were officially represented with the exception of the National Socialists and Communist parties. The German organization of the same namewas under tire leadership of the Social Democrat president of the German Reichstag, Paul Loewe.
Q Thank you. I have a list of the committee here before me which is dated 1926, and you appear as trustee and as deputy of Paul Speiser. As treasurer is named Dr. Arthur Seyss-Inquart, and there is Dr. Benedikt Kautsky, a Georg Stern, and a certain Dr. Stolper.
Are these details correct?
commissions make efforts towards the Anschluss at that time? Germain, a movement started in Austria on a very broad basis, which wanted the reunion of this country, which was suffering from the deepest economic depression, with Germany. This movement was joined by men from all parties and all religions, as you can see from the names which you, Doctor, have just mentioned.
reference to the previous position of Vienna, what the feelings were regarding the Anschluss? seemed so far away was not dealt with in detail. There were no conceptions, but every Austrian, on the basis of his wellfounded historic feelings, was agreed that the town of Vienna should be given the rank of the second capital of Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: I'm sorry. The Tribunal isn't really or whether it was just or not.
The Tribunal is concerned with whether it was obtained by violence and force.
This evidence doesn't seem to be relevant at all.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, unfortunately I have because I am of the opinion -- and that doesn't only apply who participated in the Anschluss.
It is my opinion, therefore -- and I shall be very brief; I have only ot one what the general attitude was.
I have taken the liberty BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, and then in '1938 you became mayor of the city of Vienna. This is now after the Anschluss. At that time, Seyss-Inquart was also Reich town governor for the Gau of Vienna, or rather the country of Austria, is that correct? Austrian Chancellor on the 30th of March 1938 in the morning. At that time Seyss-Inquart was Bundist Chancellor of Austria.
Q All right. Well, how long did you remain in office as mayor of Vienna?