A Yes, although it is hard for me to recall the name at present.
Q Well, who? but at the moment I can't recall the name.
Q All right. You have testified that many of the execution orders were signed by Mueller. Is that correct? testified were signed by-
DR. STEINBAUER (counsel for defendant Seyss-Inquart):
know the contents of these documents. I request that we be
THE PRESIDENT: Haven't copies of these documents been handed to the defendants?
COLONEL AMEN: Yes, so I understood. We have copies here.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the matter can be looked into. BY COLONEL AMEN: you testify were signed by Mueller. Do you understand? testify were signed by Mueller were also signed by order of, or as representative of, the Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner?
A Yes. Underneath it said--that is, as far as the copies that I saw are concerned, after I was at Oranienburg--it said, under the heading, "RSHA, i.v." That means, "in Vertretung", or "as a representative," "Mueller."
of the Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner? Is that not correct? Chief of the RSHA, Kaltenbrunner. the prosecution?
COLONEL AMEN: I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit 3868-PS, (A document was submitted to the witness.)
Q You signed that affidavit voluntarily, witness?
Q And the affidavit is true in all respects?
COLONEL AMEN: This, if the Tribunal please, we have in four languages. told us about in part, so I will omit some parts of the affidavit. Follow along with me as I read, please.
Do you have a copy of the affidavit before you?
I will omit the first paragraph and start with paragraph 2:
" I have been constantly associated with the aministration of concentration camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachenhausen from 1938 to May 1, 1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz. I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December, 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries, Included among the executed end burnt were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of Prisoner of War cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmach transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens, mostly Jewish, from Holland, France Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944."
That is all true, witness? paragraph 3:
"Prior to establisment of the RSHA, secret state police office (Gestapo) and the Reich Office of Criminal Police were responsible for arrests, commitments to concentration camps, punishments and executions therein. After organization of the RSHA all of these functions were carried on as before but pursant to orders signed by Heydrich as Chief of the RSHA. While Kaltenbrunner was Chief of RSHA orders for protective custody, commitments, punishment and individual executions were signed by Kaltenbrunner or by Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo, as Kaltenbrunn Deputy."
THE PRESIDENT: Just for the sake of accuracy, the last date in paragraph 2, is that 1943 or 1944?
Q. 1944, I believe. Is that date correct, witness, at the close of paragraph 2, namely, that the 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 were executed? Is that 1944 or 1943?
A. 1944. Part of that figure may be traced back to 1943, but the end was 1944, that is, the autumn of 1944.
Q. Right.
"Mass executions by gassing commenced during the summer of 1941 and continued until Fall 1944. I personally supervised executions at Auschwitz until the first of December 1943 and know by reason of my continued, duties in the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps WVHA that these maps executions continued as stated above. All mass executions by gassing took place under the direct order, supervision, and responsibility of RSHA. I received all orders for carrying out these mass executions directly from RSHA."
Are those statements true and correct, witness?
A. Yes, they are.
"5. On 1 December 1943 I became Chief of Amt I in Amt Group D of the WVHA, and in that office was responsible for coordinating all matters arisin, between RSHA and concentration camps under the administration of WVHA. I hold this position until the end of the war. Pohl, as Chief of WVHA, and Kaltembrunner, as Chief of RSHA, often conferred personally and frequently communicated orally and in writing concerning concentration camps."
You have already told us about the lengthy report which you took to Kaltenbrunner in Berlin, so I will omit the remainder of paragraph 5."6. The 'final solution' of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jens in Europe.
I was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there were already in the general government three other extermination camps; BELZEK, TREBLINKA and WOLZEK. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their extermination. The Camp Commandant at Treblinka told no that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas, and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon B, which was a crystallized Prussic Add which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. To know when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. To usually waited about one-half hour before no opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special commandos took off the ringsand extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses."
Is that all true and correct, witness? from the teeth of the corpses, do you know?
Q Will you tell the Tribunal? medical office of the SS at Berlin.
Q "Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that no built our gas chamber to accommodate 2,000 people at one time, whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each.
The way we selected our victims was as follows: we had two SS doctors on duty at Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The prisoners would be marched by one of the doctors who would make spot decisions as they walked by. Those who more fit for work mere sent into the Camp. Others more sent immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender years mere invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work. Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always know that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz me endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties duo to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them me mould send the children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out the so exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire area and all of the people living in the surrounding communities know that exterminations more going on at Auschwitz."
Is that all true and correct, witness? the medical experiments as to which you have already testified.
"10. Mr. Rudolf Mildner was, the chief of the Gestapo at Kattowicz from approximately March 1941 until September 1943 As such, he frequently sent prisoners to Auschwitz for incarceration or execution. He visited Auschwitz on several occasions. The Gestapo Court, the SS Standgericht, which tried persons accused of various crimes, such as escaping Prisoners of War, etc., frequently met within Auschwitz, and Mildner often attended the trial of such persons, who usually were executed in Auschwitz following their sentence. I showed Mildner throughout the extermination plant at Auschwitz and he was directly interested in it since he had to send the Jews from his territory for execution at Auschwitz.
"I understand English as it is written above. The above statements are true; this declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion; after reading over the statement I have signed and executed the same at Nurnberg, Germany, on the Fifth day of April, 1946."
you true to your own knowledge?
COLONEL AMEN: That concludes my cross examination, except for one Exhibit that our British allies would like to have in, which is a summary sheet of the Exhibits which I introduced at the commencement of the cross examination. That will be Exhibit 819. It is a summary of the earlier exhibits that I put in with respect to the Waffen SS at the commencement of my cross examination. the French delegations have one or two questions which they consider peculiar to their country which they would like to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, you will remember that the Tribunal were assured by counsel for the prosecution that so far as witnesses were concerned, with the exception of one or two particular defendants, the prosecution would have only one cross examination and, now, since thatassurance was given, this is the second instance when the prosecution have desired to have more than one cross examination.
GENERAL RUDENKO: This is correct, Mr. President, that the prosecution did make that statement at some time; however, the prosecution has reserved the right on certain occasions when deemed necessary to do otherwise. Since, in this case, the prosecution represent four different States, occasions do arise when each of the prosecutors feel that he must ask the defendant or his witnesses questions particularly interesting to his country.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you indicate the nature of the questions which the Soviet Prosecution desire to put: I mean the subjects upon which they are. I don't mean the exact questions but the subject.
GENERAL RUDENKO: Yes, I understand. Colonel Pokrovsky, who will ask the question, will report on time subject to the Tribunal.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: May I report to you, Mr. President, that the questions of interest to the Soviet Prosecution are those dealing specifically with the annihilation of the Soviet citizens and some details connected with that annihilation. At the request of the French Prosecution, I would also like to ask two or three questions connected with the documents which at one time were submitted as F-709-A, which were submitted by the French Prosecution to the Tribunal. This is really all there is; however, these questions do have great importance for the Soviet and French Prosecution. This is why I would like to ask them.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, the Tribunal, as has just been stated, made the rule, with the assent of the prosecutors, that in the case of the witnesses there should be one cross examination. There is nothing in the Charter which expressly gives to the prosecution the right for each prosecutor to cross examine and there is, on the other hand, Article 18 which directs the Tribunal to take strict measures to prevent any action which will cause unreasonable delay, and, in the opinion of the Tribunal in the present case, the subject has been fully covered and the Tribunal therefore think it right to adhere to the rules which they have laid, down in this case.
They will therefore not hear any further cross examination.
Do you wish to re-examine, Dr. Kauffman.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I will try to be very; brief. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: 2 that at least an additional half million died through starvation and disease. Now, I am asking you, in what period of time did this death by starvation take place? Does this cover to the end of the war also or does this apply to an earlier period?
A No. I am dealing solely with the war years, from the end of 1942 to the end of the war.
Q Under point 3 -- Do you stillhave the affidavit before you?
DR. KAUFFMANN: May I ask that we return the affidavit to the witness? BY DR. KAUFFMANN: regarding protective custody, punishment, commitments and special executions were signed by Kaltenbrunner or Mueller -- "Mueller, Chief of theGestapo and Deputy of Kaltenbrunner", was signed. In that way, do you wish to contradict that which you stated just previously? saw only very few decrees which were actually signed by Kaltenbrunner. Most of them were signed by Mueller.
Q Under point 4, towards the end of the paragraph, you state, "All mass executions took place under the direct order, supervision and responsibility of the RSHA. I received all orders for carrying out these mass executions directly from RSHA." Your statement, which you just made to the Tribunal, had as its context that this entire action came directly from Himmler through Eichmann, who had been personally delegated, and you received your instructions from him. Do you still stand on that?
that which you testified to before?
A No. I am always saying that the re was a connection of the RSHAand the Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann. am not going to read verbatim, but I wish to say that you said that even though exterminations took place secretly, the population in the outlying districts knew of the extermination of people, and I am asking you now: Didn't even at a previous or earlier period of time -- that is, before the beginning of this special extermination action, didn't an action of this nature take place of people who had died in a normal manner in Auschwitz?
A Yes, even when the crematoriums had not been built; a part of those who had died, who could not be cremated in thecamp itself, we burned them in large evens, and a large number -- I don't recall the exact figure -were buried in a mass grave and later were cremated also. That was before this extermination of Jews began, however, is described here, we cannot conclusively prove that this was an extermination of Jews?
DR. KAUFFMANN: My question was directed toward paragraph seven, especially the last sentence, from which one could gather that the socalled extermination of Jews was meant in this paragraph and I tried to bring about a connection between this question and the previous answer of the witness, which is my last.
THE PRESIDENT: The last sentence of paragraph seven is with reference to the foul and nauseating stench. What is your question about that?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Whether the population could gather from these things that an extermination of Jews was going on at that place.
THE PRESIDENT: That really is too obvious a question, isn't it? They could not possibly know who it was being exterminated.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions,
DR. PANNENBECKER (Counsel for defendant Frick): I ask the permission of the High Tribunal to ask further questions for during cross-examination the witness stated that the defendant Frick had visited Sachsenhausen and Oranienburg. BY DR. PANNENBECKER: there any evidence of atrocities at that time at Oranienburg?
Q Why not? camp at Oranienburg was a model of order and efficiency and that labors for the cultivation of the last were taking place? wood timber. tour were shown at that period?
AAn inspection tour was taken throughout the camp; kitchens were visited, billets, the hospital and all administrative and economic buildings and the areas where the inmates or detainees were working.
Q At that time were billets overflowing, were they overpopulated?
Q How did these billets look, the living accommodations? the some as in a barracks. The internees had bedclothing, sheets and all hygenic facilities which were required and were in the best of order.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Thank you, I have no further questions. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): at any one time? nine hundred.
Q What was the population of these nine hundred? starting with one hundred internees up to ten thousand internees but I cannot give any figure of the total number of people who were in these labor camps. offices? was concerned, attached to the main economic and administration office. As far as labor and food supply was concerned, the armament firms who were employing these laborers were charged with that part of the responsibility. camps similar to the condition in the concentration camps which you described a little earlier? regular concentration camps, Therefore, there was an overpopulation and the death rate was very high in these labor camps.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
Dr. Kauffmann, does that close your case?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I wish to call another witness with the permission of the Court, that is witness Neubacher.
Hermann Neubacher, a witness took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated oath.) BY DR. KAUFFMANN: war? missions. Before the war I was Mayor of the City of Vienna.
Q Did you know the defendant Kaltenbrunner?
Q How long have you known him? with the so-called appeasement action of the Engineer Reinthaler. I met him in Austria, Later I saw him again, after the Anschluss. RSHA. Are you acquainted with that fact?
Q Do you know whether Kaltenbrunner wanted to take this position? he did not wish to take that position, that he had declined three times but had received a military order to accept. He added that he had received a promise to be relieved of this office after the war. position he took toward his task in the RSHA?
A As far asofficial contact is concerned, I had repeated conversations with him in his office, but that was concerned with foreign intelligence and foreign policy.
Q Witness, the RSHA was the superior of the Gestapo. Are you familiar with that fact? far as the taking over of the power of the police executive, did he have any special capacity or adaptability or previous training? training or knowledge when he assumed his office. In the year 1941 he wanted to leave the police.
Q What clues do you have for that statement? in Rumania. Kaltenbrunner told me that he did not like police work, did not know anything about police work and furthermore, had no interest for it. He was largely interested, however-
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that is really evidence which ought to be given. I cannot affect his official position, the fact he did not like it.
Q Kaltenbrunner was called the successor of Heydrich. Does that term apply in its full sense to Kaltenbrunner?
THE PRESIDENT: That's a matter of argument. This witness's opinion cannot affect the position of Kaltenbrunner. This witness cannot testify whether he was called a successor to Heydrich or another Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The prosecution contends and speaks of Kaltenbrunner as the successor of the notorious Heydrich. Speaks of that in a negative way.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has already admitted that he was the successor of Heydrich. You may ask him if he was another Heydrich.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Please, will you tell me whether he could be called a second Heydrich?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that that is incompetent.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Very well. I beg your pardon, I misunderstood. I will pass to the next question. preference to anyone else?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that the witness can give any evidence as to what Himmler thought. Himmler appointed him.
DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness, so far as I am told, knows and can tell of a conversation with Himmler out of which we can conclude that Himmler selected Kaltenbrunner for he did not fear Kaltenbrunner in any way. The Prosecution contends exactly the opposite. The exact opposite. This man knows from the words of Himmler that the contention of the Prosecution is entirely incorrect.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you cannot ask what Himmler said about his appointment, if he said anything to this witness. You can ask him what did Himmler say about the appointment to Kaltenbrunner.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Please begin, witness.
THE WITNESS: During the course of a conversation with Himmler when I was at his office at Headquarters, looking at the death made of Heydrich, Himmler said to me that he had, "through the death of this man, suffered an irreparable loss.
After Heydrich, no one person could direct the tremendous office which Heydrich had had, only he who had developed this system could direct it and lead it." Upon my question, "What about Kaltenbrunner?" Himmler said: "Of course you are interested in that matter because you are Austrian. Kaltenbrunner will have to work his way into the office. He is diligently concerned with matters with which you are concerned. With foreign intelligence." Those were the statements made by Himmler. office in the year of 1943, Kaltenbrunner was diligently concerned with negotiations abroad? looking for a so-called negotiation with the enemy Feindgespraech. He was of the opinion that we should not come out of this war without the use of foreign political measures. I did not speak about particulars about the war in Germany, Everyone was sentenced to death who even doubted the victory of Germany and mentioned his doubt to just one other person. mitigate the terror regime in Siberia?
A Yes, I am grateful to the support of Kaltenbrunner. I owe him much in this direction. The German police officers in Siberia knew, through me and through Kaltenbrunner, that Kaltenbrunner, as chief of the foreign intelligence service, supported my policy in the southeast area without reserve, therefore, it was possible that he could influence the police officers there and the support by Kaltenbrunner and from Kaltenbrunner was very valuable in my endeavors so that with the help of officers, that a system of collective responsibility, as far as reprisals were concerned, could be done away with. question?
then briefly. That was on the occasion when rumors of systematic action increased. I asked Kaltenbrunner what his thoughts were in this connection. Kaltenbrunner very briefly told me that that was a special action which was not subordinate to him. He kept his distance from this action as far as I was concerned, and I believe some time later, at the end of 1944, he told me once and very briefly, as far as the treatment of Jews was concerned, a new way was being followed. He said that with the voice of a man who is proud of his successes.
Q Kaltenbrunner is called "hungry for Power." Do you know what kind of a life he led?
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution hasnot called him "hungry for power." There is no charge against him as being "hungry for power."
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, the actual words in the Prosecution are "hungry for Power and cruel". Both of these words are used.
THE PRESIDENT: But being "hungry for power" or "cruel is quite different.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, of course. I am just asking about the first term.
THE PRESIDENT: I was just wondering where these terms were used.
DR. KAUFFMANN: In the indictment both of these terms are used. "Hungry for power and cruel." Both of them.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): It certainly isn't in the indictment. We find no allegation in the indictment which reads "hungry for power and cruel," and we do not recollect any mention being made in the statement in the Prosecution's case.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I would not have had notes taken on it if it had not been so. In the Indictment, your Honor, there is a page under the heading "Summary and Conclusion." I am referring to the last paragraph on that page where it says:
"As all other Nazis, Kaltenbrunner was desirous of power in order to assure himself of power he signed his name in blood -- a name which will remain in memory as a symbol for cruelty and ...."
THE PRESIDENT: Where are you reading from? That are you reading from?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I am quoting the indictment on the last page under the heading "Summary and Conclusion"
MR. DODD: I think I can clarify the matter. It is rather clear that the Counsel is reading from my trial brief. The trial brief was never offered in evidence in court, but it was handed to the counsel.
DR. KAUFFMANN: If I am not upheld on this point, I have no further questions on that point.
I am now passing to another point. Do you know, witness, whether Kaltenbrunner, gave an order for the action of concentration camps? and observations, did he, as a chief of this office, do everything so that that measure of inhumanity would, be mitigated? years and as far as the domestic and internal development of Germany is concerned, I am not in a position to make extensive observations. As I have come to know; Kaltenbrunner, I do not doubt that he gave way to the illusion that he would be in a position to influence the course that Heydrich had taken.
Q Do you know of a case against pressure by the police, where ho used his power so that two church dignitaries in Serbia--that is, two dignitaries of the Serbian Church--were liberated?
A Yes, I knew about that incident. These two church dignitaries--
THE PRESIDENT: How is this relevant to Kaltenbrunner?
DR. KAUFFMANN: He is accused of having persecuted the churches. The Prosecution expressly accuses Kaltenbrunner of persecuting churches, with the objective of annihilation of Christianity. I can say this with assurances: This is contained in records, and with this question I am referring to those records.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer to it cannot answer any charge against Kaltenbrunner, can it?
DR. KAUFFMANN: If the defendant wished to exterminate churches, then he would not take measures which would, in fact, be opposite to that policy. And this witness will be able to attest to this fact.
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to churches or with reference to individual people?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Particular people as representatives of the church as a whole. I do not believe you can separate the principle from the people.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the question is incompetent.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn (A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Military Tribunal in the matter of: The
THE PRESIDENT: Had you finished, Dr. Kauffmann?
DR. KAUFFMANN: My questions to this witness are finished.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defense want to ask questions?
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendant FUNK): Mr. President, I have same questions to put which are, of course, not in any way connected with Kaltenbrunner, but which refer to subjects which will later appear during the case for the defendant Funk. Since the witness is going to appear or can appear only once, of course I have no other possibilities but to put the questions to the witness now, which would, of course, be more applicable later on. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you had said to 'ay that the German Foreign Office or the Foreign Service had used you for economic questions and sent you to Rumania. I it correct that during the time you were working in Roumania, you were also handling the economic interests and dealing with economic questions in Greece?
A. In the autumn of 1942, I received the task, apart from the orders had for Roumania, that I should, together with a financial expert from Italy Minister D'Agostino, go to Greece and bring about the total liquidation of currency and reorganization of currency and economic system that should be prevented, by us.
Q. Witness, according to your training and your previous activities, were you suited for such a very difficult task? Please will you tell us the very briefly, and tell us which posts you had filled before so that we can form a picture whether you could cope with this task in Greece, but please, witness, be very brief.