A Hitler's order to Heydrich regarding the final solution of the Jewish problem was unknown to me at the time I took up my office. In the summer of 1943 I gathered from the foreign press and through the enemy radio -
THE PRESIDENT: This isn't an answer to your question. You asked him what he did when he found out that Auschwitz was a concentration camp. He is now making a long speech about Heydrich. You asked for his attitude. I suppose you meant what he did, when he first heard that Auschwitz was an extermination camp, in February or March, 1944. He is now telling us a long story about something having to do with Heydrich.
Q Please try to give me a direct answer to that question. What was your attitude after you heard about that, and quite briefly and very concisely, please? previously, not so much to find a final solution, but particularly because I disliked this type of treatment for the Jews, I interfered just as I had before. That is why I wanted to explain how I had been taken to the questions regarding the Jews, how I had learned about them, and what I had done against them. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q We still don't know what you did -BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q That did you do? I am asking you that. the facts and my reactions to them, just as I have to tell you what I heard about it.
Q You told us that. Just explain to us your reactions. afterwards, for technical reasons, I protested to Himmler, but not only did I draw their attention to my personal views and attitude and my completely different conception, which I had brought over from Austria, and my humanitarian qualms that I had, but immediately on the first day in practically every one of my foreign intelligence reports right to the very end I said there was no hostile power that could in any way have any negotiations with a Reich which had burdened itself with this guilt.
Those were the demands I put to Himmler and Hitler. And particularly through the intelligence sector it would have been necessary to create conditions which could have served discussions with the states of the enemy.
Q When did the Jewish persecution end? intervention? this is mine, although a number of other personalities too worked in the same direction. But I do not think that there was anybody who on every occasion reproached Himmler in that connection and I don't think either that there was anybody who would have spoken as openly and frankly and with so much denial to Hitler as I did. Hitler and Himmler to the RSHA and then to Eichmann, or did this order have a personal character outside the competence of the RSHA? wasn't there when these orders were issued; but I have clues which make me believe that the channel for this order was: Hitler, Heydrich, Eichmann, and that Himmler was informed shortly after Heydrich and that Himmler after Heydrich's death, together with Eichmann, and probably often excluding Mueller, cooperated directly -to put to you -- stated on the 3rd of January that between April, 1942, and October, 1944, there had been a practical execution of that final solution. Wisleceny stated -- referred to a personal order from Himmler and he also stated that Eichmann was the person who was personally directly charged with the task, but he also goes on to say, "The extermination of Jews continued under Kaltenbrunner without any reduction or alleviation. Correspondence with thoughts from Eichmann at regular intervals went through Mueller and Kaltenbrunner. In 1944 Eichmann personally had called on Kaltenbrunner in such reports to Himmler."
That was Wisleceny's statement. And now my question: Is this statement the truth in principle?
A This statement, is wrong, but I can clarify it. So as to begin with the end of the story; Wisclocony may have seen my signature but not that report to Himmler which I had received from Eichmann at Wille. It was on a letter which I have written to Himmler and a copy of this I had passed on to Mueller and Eichmann for their information and in which I referred to my last report--verbal report-- to Himmler, regarding the Jewish question, which was the first time that I heard that Eichmann was being active in that respect, and so as to clarify it from the beginningwith Eichmann that I did not want to be associated with that activity I wrote via Mueller who was given a copy of the letter to Himmler, given to Eichmann, and in that it said I now asked him to define his attitude so that since the Fuehrer had ordered me to go to see him and since I wanted to report Himmler's activities and wanted a find solution from the Fuehrer on the whole subject. heard from Eichmann that a total number of four to five million Jewish persons had been exterminated and about two million of them in Auschwitz. Have you heard any such figures? that subject and asked him whether he had any idea of all those crimes. That is the reason I put that question to him, so that he would understand the extent of the catastrophe which was going on. He replied to me that he had no figures at his disposal. I don't believe it. I am convinced he did have them. you re fuse it? he able to prove through Burckhardt that there was nobody who exposed himself more on this question in favor of another solution. 289. It is a letter from the Reich Commissar for Riga and dated 13 June 1943. It refers to the Jewish attitude, action at the prison in Minsk. It is a letter from the commandant of the prison, addressed to the Gen eral Commissar for White Ruthenia at Minsk.
Please will, you make a statement based, on that document. that this letter could not have been brought to my knowledge. But I can also see from its contents, which I don't know. Presumably these are events which occurred before I came into office, because if the person is reporting in June, 1943, then this must refer to events which occurred previously to that date and which would have taken a certain amount of time to reach him.
Q Now, Exhibit 473, U.S.A. Exhibit 542, is a letter from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, dated December 4 1944. This is used by the Prosecution too to make it the basis of severe accusations against Defendant Kaltenbrunner. It refers to the combatting of criminals amongst the Polish and Soviet Russian civilian workers, and as a means for their apprehension the Criminal Police have at their disposal police detention and their transfer to a concentration camp on the charge of being anti-social or dangerous. The document has the signature, "Dr. Kaltenbrunner" What are your views on that?
Q Do you deny having signed this letter at all; or, to be more accurate, did you have any knowledge of the situation?
Q I now submit document 1276-PS, USA Exhibit 525. The Prosecution has referred to this document. This refers to the effects of Hitler's order dated 18 October 1942, and according to this, parachutists and sabotage troops are to be exterminated and commandos are to be surrendered to the SD. In a letter which has a signature "Mueller", dated 17 June 1944 addressed to the Supreme Command, it says that such parachutists in British uniform, in accordance with Hitler's order, are to be treated in that manner. I am now asking you if you knew of this document signed by Mueller, dated 17 June 1944, and did you in any way know of this affair at all which is the basis of this document? should like to say in this connection that this order of Hitler's and his basic attitude to the whole question became known to me later. I think this happened at the headquarters in February 1943 and there, before witnesses and publicly, I stated that such treatment of soldiers and prisoners would not only be refused by me, but that any such order from Hitler would not be carried out by me. I think another defendant here is calling a witness by the name of Koller, and I ask you to ask this witness, who was at that time the Chief of Staff of the Air Forces, how I stated in Hitler's personal presence what my attitude was regarding that question, which I heard of for the first time in 1943 as being his personal opinion. I cannot do more than to state before the strongest and most mighty man, who said that anyone who would not obey an order would be shot -- I cannot do more than to say in his presence to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force that I will not obey such an order.
Q I now come to document 2990-PS, US Exhibit 326. This is an affidavit from the witness Schellenberg. According to it, in 1944 a meeting took place between Kaltenbrunner and Mueller. Kaltenbrunner is supposed to have stated that actions of the populations against terrorist fliers must not be interfered with and that, to the contrary, the hostile attitude of the population must be supported. I shall quote a few sentences from the examination of the witness Schellenberg on 3 January 1946, where he says:
"In 1944 on some other occasion I heard fragments from a conversation which was taking place between Kaltenbrunner and Mueller. The following remark remains clearly in my recollection: 'All departments of the Security Police and the SD--'" This is what Kaltenbrunner said -- "'must be informed that actions on the part of the population against British and American terrorist fliers must not be interfered with.' An order was in existence in this respect from Himmler dated 10 August 1943, which was given to the SD, and in accordance with that order, it was not the task of the Police to interfere with such clashes."
Do you know Schellenberg? credibility with respect to this document. Schellenberg was under Heydrich's protection, and -
THE PRESIDENT: He wants to know whether you know Schellenberg. That is a question you can answer.
The question was, "Do you know Schellenberg." And he goes off into a long speech without answering the question.
Q Did you know Schellenberg? Yes or no.
A Yes, of course. He was the Chief of Department VI.
Q My second question: what was the relationship between you and the Chief of Department VI, and do you consider this statement of his as being true and correct? reasons so that the Tribunal can estimate the value of that statement. Schellenberg was Himmler's most intimate friend. By Himmler's order, he remained with him to the last day. He is a man who was acting on Himmler's behalf when contact was made with the Swedish Count Bernadotte. He was the man who at the very last minute, through Mr. Muehse in Switzerland, established a connection which was used to liberate a very few Jewish detainees who were sent to Switzerland and other countries abroad so that a favorable impression could be created for Himmler and Schellenberg abroad. He is the man who, together with another friend of Himmler's, carried out an action so as to use an organization of Rabbis to make a pact which was to be published in some large papers in America in headlines saying that there should be a better press for Hitler.
These tricks I have criticized before Himmler and Hitler and discredited them and said that it was unworthy of the cause and of the Reich that in so important a matter, this method should be used , such as were being used by Schellenberg. I said the only correct way would be the immediate taking up of connections with the Red Cross. Consequently, I prejudiced Himmler before President Burckhardt, and I forced him to adept a different attitude in this connection by asking Burckhardt personally to visit these camps. Himmler must be disappointed about what I was doing and why he is now interested in accusing me of breaking my word internationally; and is implicating you wrongly?
Q Now, then, in this document of Schellenberg's the events are referred to in connection with those 30 fliers, and Schellenberg reports that you, together with Mueller and Nebe, had a conference and that you, together, were trying to find an excuse so that the true events could be camouflaged from the public. I am asking you when did you first hear of the shooting of these 50 fliers?
Q No, when did you hear of it? A simple question, please. it happened.
Q My next question: Do you want to say with that that you were not participating in the shooting of these men in any way, but that to the contrary you were made acquainted with the matter much later? once more exclusively concerned with the later attempt to camouflage the matter?
Q I am now coming to document 835-PS, USA Exhibit 527. The Prosecution has used that document against the defendant. It is the so-called "Nacht und Nebel Decree" -- the "Night and Fog Decree", which is an order from Hitler dated 7 December 1941, Is the expression "Night and Fog Decree" familiar to you? Where did you hear of it for the first time? to you, is a letter from the OKW dated 2 September 1944, addressed to the German Armistice Commission. It is signed by Dr. Lehmann, and it says with reference to the decree that it is stated that all non-German civilians in occupied territories who could interfere with the security or readiness of the occupying forces by means of terror or sabotage or in any other way are to be handed over to the Security Police and the SD. In the case of so important a matter, it appears improbable that the matter and the decree were not known to you.
the situation. May I first of all say, please, that in no document is there better proof for the fact that the SD is wrongfully attributed an executive function. No document makes that clearer than this. It says here on line four:
"--in any other way should be handed over to the Security police and SD." thing, that matters should be handed over to two different authorities; either it is the Security Police or the SD. appeared in Fuehrer decrees which was because Heydrich's designation was Chief of the Security Police and SD and because this was always abbreviated as SD but it is a complete mistake. But I am not trying to save the SD from the consequences of other matters which it may have committed. I am merely trying to ascertain that its executive jurisdiction is wrongfully referred to. mentioned also.
A Yes and to that I want to say the following. This Fuehrer decree from the year 1941 was not known to me. I am asking you to put yourself in my position. At the beginning of 1943 I came to Berlin. With the exception of a few official visits I commenced by actual activity in May 1943. Reich and even in the executive sector arrived in thousands of numbers and were accumulating on the desks of the civil servants. It was absolute impossible for any man even to read them all within a year and it was quite impossible for me to know of the existence of all those orders even if I had considered it my duty to do so. But it was not my duty at all and then I am asking you to consider the following fact.
The beginning of my activity was February 1, 1943. On February 2 Stalingrad was surrendered and the largest military catastrophy -
THE PRESIDENT: This is a long speech in answer to a question as to whether he had seen this letter. He says he did not see the letter. Then he makes this long speech. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q I am now putting this question to you. When did you realize what significance this Nacht und Nebel (Night and Fog) decree had and what it meant regarding the treatment of persons it affected? Please give a precise answer.
A Dr. Kauffmann, the existence of the decree was unknown to me. If I had known that this matter would be held against me here then I would have been able to nominate a witness from a prison inLondon who can prove that even then in London I had no idea that it existed. We have talked about that in the cell.
Q The end result, therefore, is that you did not know? prosecution as U.S.A. Exhibit 502.
(Witness handed document.) 1943. That report contains a sentence:
"Fuehrer order carried out by SD."
The signature on that document is lacking. It is dated May 10, 1943. It is a secret command matter and the heading is "Note."
Please, will you make a statement regarding that sentence: "Fuehrer order carried out by SD."
A The execution of such a Fuehrer order was unknown to me. I draw your attention to the fact that this note is obviously one made by a military department regarding an event which took place at a time after I had come into office but when I was not actually functioning in that office and I could not have had knowledge of it at all.
Q It says at the end of the document:
"Armed Forces report dated April 6, 1943."
It states further as follows:
"In northern Norway an enemy sabotage troopship was forced to fight when approaching the coast and was destroyed." you knew of it at all and did you know anything about its connections to the actual decree?
A No. Of course I received practically every army report but I would not say that any participation of any of my service departments can be gathered from this report.
defendant by the Prosecution, L-37, USA Exhibit 506. This is the so-called "responsibility of relatives", that is to say, it refers to crimes committed against relatives of the guilty persons and this document refers to a letter from the commander of the Security Police and SD at Radom, dated July 19, 1944, according to which male relatives of saboteurs are to be shot and the female relatives are to be sent to concentration camps. document and the whole matter?
A The report commences with the words:
"The higher SS and police leader East has --" and so on and so forth, and then -- "ordered" or "issued the following order." in an occupied territory which comes directly under the Reichsleader SS and not in any under any of the central departments of the RSHA so that I could not possibly have knowledge of that order. However, the police leaders in occupied territories were immediately subordinate to Himmler. concentration camp at Dachau. A document exists which has the number 3462-PS, USA 528. It is a statement by the chief of the State Building Department Gerdes. camp at Dachau and its two next camps at Muehldorf and Landsberg were to be removed by bombs or by the use of poison by order of the defendant. I shall read a few sentences from that document. They are on page two of the German text, near the end of the page.
"In December 1944 or January 1945 I was in the office of Gauleiter Giesler in Munich, Ludwig Street 28 and had the opportunity to learn about a secret order from Kaltenbrunner. Gauleiter Geisler received that order in my presence through a courier and after I had been given permission to read it it was destroyed in accordance with the remark on the document: 'To be destroyed after cognizance has been taken. The order which was signed by Kaltenbrunner was worded roughly as follows:
"'In agreement with the Reichsleader SS I have instructed all higher police departments that every German who participates in the future in persecution and destroying of enemy flyers will remain unpunished.'
"Giesler told me that he was in contact with Kaltenbrunner since he was considerably worried over the attitude of foreign workers and particularly the inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, Muehldorf and Landsberg, which were in the path of the approaching allied armies.
"On a Tuesday in the middle of April, 1945, I had a call on the telephone from the Gauleiter ordering me to keep myself available for a night conference. In the course of our conversation that evening Gauleiter Giesler disclosed the fact to me that Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner had given him instructions, in accordance with an order from the Fuehrer, that there should be an immediate plan made regarding the liquidation of the concentration camp at Dachau and the two Jewish workers camps at Muehldorf and Landsberg. The instructions stated that these two Jewish workers camps at Landsberg and Muehldorf were to be destroyed by the German Air Force, since the sites of those two camps had lately and repeatedly been affected by hostile bombing attacks. The action was given the cmouflage name 'Cloud One'."
A May I talk about that?
Q Yes please, about that. Do you know Gerdes?
Q Do you know Giesler? concentration camps?
Q Will you give a reasonable explanation regarding this document?
A To give a reasonable explanation for that document isn't humanly possible, since it is an invention from "A" to "Z" and a fake. I state that this is a complete and utter lie coming from Gerdes, and I can only draw your attention to the fact that there is material supporting my statement, which originates from the Higher SS and Police Leader in Bavaria, Count Eberstein, who considers Gerdes' statement as being completely incredible. I would like to refer to those accusations in detail as follows: a call from the Gauleiter to be available for a night conference. He disclosed that he had received an instruction from Kaltenbrunner, in accordance with an order of the Fuehrer, and then it goes on. tration camps and who had to give an order, and Hitler knew that best, He couldn't and wouldn't have given me such an order because, beginning with the 20th of March and until the 15th of April, and by order from Hitler personally, I was in Upper Austria; and, from the 19th of April until the 8th of May, when I was captured, I was at Bayreuth. During the few days when I was in Berlin I can state so accurately just where I have been and what I hav d one that the question of giving an order in this connection is out of the question. And answer it would have had to happen earlier, if the witness is talking about the middle of April, which would mean that I would have had to talk to Hitler about this earlier than the middle of April, since otherwise, he fouldn't have been asked to hold a night conference before the middle of April. was completely unknown to me. And I am asking you to recognize it as crazy that in April of 1945, I could have helped such orders along, when in March, 1945, I was having discussions with the President of the Red Cross, Burckhardt, regarding the surrender and help to be given to all Jews; when I discussed with him his personal action on behalf of Jews, and when I achieved that purpose, this respect?
such an order would have had to go through the Chief of the Air Force and he, of course, would have turned me down because you must realize that at this point, when everyone knew that the war had come to an end, the Air Force wouldn't have lent its hand to a terrible crime. a terrible accusation, I'm quoting a few sentences from this document, because the Prosecution, too, has read these sentences into the record. The document goes on to say:
"I was aware that I would never carry this order out." This is Gerdes talking. "Since the action 'Cloud A-1' had long since been carried out and couriers from Kaltenbrunner kept arriving, I was supposed to discuss details regarding this action. I was supposed to have discussed them with the Kreisleiter concerned. The couriers which in most cases were SS officers, mostly SS Untersturmfuehrers, used to give me brief and sharp orders for me to read and showed me messages and threatened me with severe punishment, including execution, in case of disobedience. I could always excuse the failure to carry out the plan with bad flying weather or with lack of patrol or lack of bombs.
"Consequently, Kaltenbrunner ordered that the Jews should be marched from Landsberg to Dachau, so that they should be included in the extermination action which was going on at Dachau, whereas the action at Muehldorf was to be carried out by the Gestapo. The orders for the concentration camp at Dachau, which Kaltenbrunner gave, were given the name 'Cloud Fire.' The inmates of the concentration camps at Dachau, with the exception of the Aryan members of the western powers, were to be liquidated with poison. Gauleiter Giesler received that order directly from Kaltenbrunner and in my presence he discussed them with the Health Officer, Dr. Harfeld, and talked about the finding of the necessary amount of poison. Dr. Harfeld promised that the necessary amount, in accordance with the order, would be obtained, and he received instructions to wait for my further orders.
"Since I wished to prevent this action from being carried out at all events, I gave no further instructions to Dr. Harfeld. The inmates of the camp at Landsberg had hardly arrived at Dachau when a courier from Kaltenbrunner ordered the beginning of the action which was called 'Cloud Fire'. The execution of the two actions were prevented by me in that manner and I stated to Giesler that the front line was too near and that the execution was to be left to Kaltenbrunner.
"Kaltenbrunner gave written instructions to Dachau that all detainees who were members of the Western European Powers were to be loaded on to lorries and transported to Switzerland, whereas the remaining inmates were to be marched afoot into the Tyrol, where the final liquidation of the detainees would be carried out with due speed." whether this document is the truth or whether it isn't.
A This document is utterly and completely untrue. But, Doctor, I must have an opportunity to define my views. I must be given an opportunity to clarify the case.
Q You have already defined the attitude. If, over and above that, you have to say anything important, then you can state it now
A This appears to be important to me. According to his statement, I must have had dozens of couriers during my stay in Austria. The persons with me consisted of two men, my driver and my administrative adjutant, his name was Scheitler, and I must say that there were three of us. I wouldn't have had any possibility to dispatch all these couriers at that time. As far as Bavaria was concerned, I had no cause whatever to give any instructions, not even on Himmler's behalf. Why?
Because, as far as Bavaria is concerned, plenipotentiary powers were given to Obergruppenfuehrer Berger. The same day I was given my plenipotentiary powers for Austria. So that there was no reason for me to take this action. And, certainly, such insane orders concerning the concentration camp couldn't even be contained in my heart. some one else, and I'm thinking of Mathausen, where the order I had given was that the camp was to be handed to the enemy undamaged and in good order, and, if you want to put yourself into Himmler's place, then it would have been completely wrong, since the real crimes were in Mathausen, whereas the people in Dachau were not so badly implicated. So that, even if you could join Himmler's thought that the exact opposite would have been necessary, from that point of view, too, it is completely insane to accuse me of any such action. you, as the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, were responsible for the persecution of the church, particularly the Catholic Church, and that you had tolerated it. I am telling you in this connection that Department B-2 of Amt-IV was occupying itself with politically Catholic questions. Do you know anything regarding the fact that within that department there was a two-fold policy regarding the churches which had a so-called "nearer" and "farther" aim. The conception of the nearer aim was that the churches could not get back a single inch of ground,; and from the further aim on understood that finally, at the end of the war, the churches in G ermany were to be destroyed. What do you know about these tendencies? you've just made weren't known to me at all. The church policy of the Reich, as I recognized it in '43, was different. In 1943, Hitler's views were decisive, and there was a sort of temporary peace regarding the fight against the churches, for the duration of the war at any rate. So that, in other words, wherever possible, any attacks should be refrained from and only if any individual personal instructions would arise and would come from members of the church, they would be proceeded against.
of '43-success? affairs which I found. I also found that, in spite of Hitler's attitude Bormann was continuing to fight against the churches actively. So that, as early as March, I wrote to Hitler, and later on verbally addressed him on the same question, and asked him to clarify the policy for the churches and asked him to alter it. But in the main, I wanted a different type of policy for the Vatican.
Q I don't think there is my need for you to go into too much detail. turned against me; and, secondly, I found the strongest resistance on Bormann's part, who even wont as far as telling the German Ambassador to the Vatican, Weizaecker--rather, he undermined his reputation by sending a stooge, who had to guard him.
Q That's enough about that one.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, do you want me to go on because it is now five.
THE PRESIDENT: If you can finish in a short time, we would like you to go on. How long are you going to be?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I would say it would take me about another hour, since I must discuss those documents which have been submitted by the Prosecution, THE PRESIDENT:
Before we adjourn, I will say the Tribunal will sit on Saturday in open session until one o'clock.
(Whereupon the hearing o f the Tribunal adjourned to reconvene at 1000 hours on 12 April 1946
DR. KAUFFMANN: (Counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President, the case of Sagan has been mentioned, but regarding his own participation the defendant has said only a few sentences. The Prosecution are assuming that he was an immediate participant even before the fliers had been shot. The two witnesses, Westhoff and Widen, in my opinion, produced evidence for the defendant, and I am now asking the Tribunal to tell me whether the defendant may have permission to speak in detail regarding the manner in which he was actively concerned in the affair, or whether the Tribunal is satisfied with the treatment he has given this problem.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that if the defendant has knowledge of the facts connected with it, he had better give them. He needn't give them in any greater detail than is necessary, but in view of the evidence of the witness Wielen, I think he ought to deal with it. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: first time after the event had taken place. Do you maintain that position? what did you do about it? the event, I received knowledge of it. At the time these fliers escaped and at the time the orders were given--which in my opinion, were given by Hitler to Himmler to Mueller to Nebe, or possibly from Himmler to Fegelein and Nebe-at the time I was not present in Berlin but was in Hungary and, with a number of stops, finally finished up in a visit to Minister Speer. On the second or third of April I returned to Berlin, and up to that time, no one had reported the case to me or informed me of it.