Q Now, is it correct to say that regarding this matter, 10 A pril-A-7-1-LJG namely the conference, that you drew up a memorandum on it and submitted it to Keitel?
offense at this fact as one might have expected but wrote his initial "K" on this memorandum that you submitted to him? got in touch with the R.S.H.A. in order to find, out something about the fate of these officers?
A Not only I tried to get in touch with the R.S.H.A. I myself did not succeed in this effort. It was turned over to the Allgemeine Wehrmachts Amt but it too did not succeed in these efforts. the Red Cross, Dr. Naville, to visit you in connection with this affair? up and told you that the Foreign Minister had to have precise knowledge of the whole occurrence, needed this information in order to draw up a note to England and that you consequently were to tell the Foreign Office about the occurrence in all its details? anything or to put anything in a false light?
A. N o.
Q Was the O.K.W. involved in the dictating of this note? was called to a meeting in Berchtesgaden called by the Foreign Office for the purpose of answering questions of the representative of the Foreign Office and to answer them truthfully?
A Yes.
that the Foreign Office had presented anote to Hitler and Hitler had drawn it up and dictated the text himself? Graevenitz and Westhoff concerned itself with the question of what action should be taken in the future. You stated in this connection that an order was to be drawn up and that it was a question of various spheres of competence that would have to be discussed with the R.S.H.A. Tell me in this connection, what did the R.S.H.A. or Himmler have to do with the administration of prisoners of war camps? and to this extent had to concern himself with the treatmentoof all escaped prisoners. O.K.W. in your department K.G.W.? the R.S.H.A. what had been done about them and received no information. office gave you no information when he caught prisoners of war? by us. regulations which were concerned with the treatment of escaped prisoners of war, use the words "Stufe III"? were equivalent to a sentence of death were known at all in the O.K.W.?
A I did not know their meaning. I was asked about them in London for the first time and had to state then that I could not say anything about them, that I did not know anything about them.
the organization as a whole shared the same ignorance?
Q I have a document here, number 1514-PS. It is a collective order of the Commander of Wehrkreis 6 regarding the treatment of escaped prisoners of war. Y ou will see in this order a number of references to previous years as far back as 1942. issued on the 4th of March, 1944, or if it is asserted to have been issued, would it not have to be a part of this document if its contents were very important?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, aren't you getting very far away from the subject upon which this witness was being examined? I mean he was being examined about an interview which he had with the Field Marshal Keitel and here you are asking him about something which has nothing to do with that at all as far as I am able to see.
DR. NELTE: I believe that I can make clear that this does have something to do with the second part of that conference, namely regarding the treatment of captured escaped prisoners of war. These are preparatory questions that I must ask to make clear in my opinion -
THE PRESIDENT: It is a very long cross-examination of a witness whom you did not wish to call. The Tribunal wishes you to make your crossexamination as brief as possible.
DR. NELTE: I shall make it as brief as the interests of the defendant permit. BY DR. NELTE: order issued by higher authorities, that the date and archive number is given? the Red Cross and communicate to them that prisoners of war of whom you knew about, that is that you knew they were recaptured but you had not been informed of their recapture?
(Witness handed document)
THE PRESIDENT: What was the point of showing 1514-PS to him? He has not been asked any relevant questions about it at all.
DR. NELTE: From this document I found corroboration that if an order had been issued on the4th of March, 1944, it would have been contained in this document.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal all think it is a waste of time, Dr. Nelte.
DR. NELTE: I shall be through in a few minutes, Mr. President. BY DR. NELTE: number two. It reads:
"The OKW is requested to inform the prisoner of war camps that in the interest of camouflaging the recaptured officers are not to be turned over directly to Mauthausen but to the local police authority." order?
A That is not familiar to me. This also took place at a time when I was not chief. been informed of all important events?
Q Did you ever find out that such a document existed? document. It is a telegram from the Chief of the SIPO and SD, Mueller, and it reads in the first paragraph as follows.
"The OKW has ordered the following. Every recaptured escaped prisoner of war is after he is crecaptured to be turned over to the SIPO or SD with the code word 'Stufe III ." order on the part of the OKW. April and were shown the previous orders of importance, ever find out about such an order as this?
Q In what way? the Field Headquarters or from the General Wehrmacht office.
when you took over office? this was to be only an oral order?
A It would be transmitted orally. It could be transmitted as far as the KGW.
Q And you know this order was transmitted? was also transmitted further.
Q Then you must have know what "Stufe III" meant.
A No, that I did not know. I have said that I knew only that there was an order to turn over these recaptured prisoners to the Gestapo but I could not remember details because I never saw the written order. you was issued by the OKW?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken).
DR, KAUFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr President, permit me to put a few questions which refer to the person of the defendant Kaltenbrunner.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we are going to call the witness Wielen afterwards. You realize that?
DR . KAUFFMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: But you want to ask this witness questions, don't you?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. The name Kaltenbrunner has been mentioned and I have a few questions on that subject BY DR. KAUFFMANN: with the Gestapo and that they hadn't given you any information. Can you remember who you contacted?
A No. The conferences with the Gestapo took place currently; whenever prisoners of war had escaped, and we didn't know wherethey were, we made frequent inquiries at the Gestapo. But on one occasion I visited Kaltenbrunner, which was on the occasion of some other matter which had nothing to do with allied prisoners of war, and since that gave me an opportunity to talk to him personally, I immediately brought the matter up for discussion and tried to have that order rescinded. Kaltenbrunner and Mueller were present at the time. to Kaltenbrunner personally?
Q Was the case of Sagan discussed? pointed out that this was an untenable situation.
Q How long after the case of Sagan did this conversation take place?
A I'm afraid I can't tell you that now; it may have been four weeks afterwards.
Q What was Kaltenbrunner's view about that problem? What did he tell you?
A He himself said next to nothing. Mueller was talking most of the time. I left without having been given either yes or no.
Q Was Mueller present during the second discussion in Berlin, too?
Q Wasn't the subject of that conversation the general question as to how one could reform the prisoner of war system in the future?
Q You mean that only the case Sagan was discussed?
A Not exclusively the case Sagan. I was ordered to see Kaltenbrunner for another reason, referring to German prisoners of war, and I used the opportunity to discuss that other case with him at once. It was the only time that I have met Kaltenbrunner at all. ive answer?
A That's correct.
Q What was the impression with which you left that conference?
A Impression? The impression was that nothing much could be done.
Q Did you report to your superiors about that conference?
Q What was the content of that message you sent?
Q Well, that alone, witness would be enough. In such an important matter you must have mentioned the contents of that conference, not just the fact--
A Of course I reported the contents; that I had brought the matter up again, and that the Gestapo was taking the attitude that they wanted to wait.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions, Mr. President. BY DR. STAHMER (Counsel for defendant Goering) and Keitel, regarding the escape of these allied flyers, did you mention the fact that it is supposed to have happened in the presence of Goering; did you state the fact that he was present personally/ Did you state it personally or did you gather that through Keitel?
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.
(Dr. Laternser, Counsel for the OKW and General Staff, approached the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, if you are going to ask questions on behalf of the High Command -- that is what you wanted to do?
DR. LATERNSER: I was going to ask a few questions on behalf of the OKW and the General Staff.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the witness has given his evidence about the fact that the OKW had nothing to do with these matters in connection with prisoner-of-war camps and he hasn't been cross-examined with reference to that by the Prosecution; so that the matter is not in dispute. And therefore it appears to the Tribunal that there is no question that need be put by you.
(A short pause.)
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, Mr. President, up to now, the procedure was that every witness who appeared before the,Tribunal could be examined by every Defense Counsel and asked questions whichhe considered necessary. Are you going to depart from that -
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't ask you to argue the matter; I asked you to specify your questions.
DR. LATERNSER: Very well. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you were active in the Eastern Campaign?
Q In what,capacity?
Q In what sector was your unit?
A To begin with, in the Ukraine; later, before Leningrad, and then at Starja Russa. instructions to your company commanders?
A In what respect?
Q After you had had the order to attack. I assume you must have had an order group of your company commanders and you as battalion commander must have been discussing orders with them.
how to behave toward the Russian population and to Russian prisoners.
Q What were the instructions you gave your company commanders? be treated in the same way he wanted to be treated himself if he became prisoner.
Q You said that specifically?
Q How did the troops behave when they marched in? had very little contact with the civilian population
Q During the advance in Russia did you note considerable instruction?
A Partly, yes; in part, villages had been destroyed, and small towns had been destroyed.
Q What about railways?
Q Industrial works? Russian Commissars were to be shot?
A We had nothing to do with that. Prisoners of war that we took were sent back to the Division right away. We, the commanders -- regimental and battalion commanders -- had nothing to do with it; nor had we any time to answer it.
A I don't know anything about it.
Q Have you ever received the order to attack Jewish people in Russia? them? stating that this was not permissible.
Q Was there any plundering?
Q Did any plundering happen?
Q Did members of your unit commit rape?
A No; in no case known to me. by troops? which contained officers. Other houses did not have to be evacuated, and as a rule the system was that whenever I was billeted on someone I would sleep in the same room with the people who lived there.
Q Have you experienced destruction whichwasn't due to military necessity fed on army rations? regiment should be given to the population at mid-day or in the evening, whenever we did have contact with them.
Q And then one last question: Would you consider it possible that German soliders could invite Russian children to a coffee party and given them poisoned cake, to poison and kill them?
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You aren't suggesting, are you, that this witness is on of the High Command?
DR. LATERNSER: No, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you suggesting that you are to be entitled to examine every witness who has any military rank, on behalf of the High Command.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, as far as I understood it, it has been the rule that any evidence, including witnesses, which is brought in here could be examined by everyone of Defense Counsel, and I have adhered to that rule up to now, and I felt that it must apply to any future questions put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: I asked you simply, are you suggesting that you are entitled to ask questions on behalf of the High Command of every person called here who has any military rank?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it seems to me that would be highly cumulative. We shall have evidence on behalf of the High Command from possibly thirty or forty witnesses. And when you say that it has been allowed in the past, every other member of the Defense has been confined to evidence so far as possible which is not cumulative, That was the reason I interrupted you, because it seemed to me if you are going to do that, claim the right to ask questions of everybody who has military rank -- and you have done it up to now -- the evidence is going to be extremely cumulative on your part.
(A brief pause.)
You see, Dr. Laternser, the questions you have been putting to this witness are questions directed to show that the regimental officers and soldiers in the GermanArmy behaved properly and could not be expectedto behave improperly. That doesn't seem to be really relevant to the questions of whether the High Command is or is not a criminal organization. And in any event -- in my opinion, at any rate -- it is cumulative if you do that.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, the Russian Prosecution particularly have produced so much material seeking to implicate the Armed Forces that the Russian Prosecution themselves have decided that corresponding orders came from above; in other words, whether any came from persons in the OKW. And I was going to ask the witness to ascertain whether any effects on a lower level had occurred. The statement that he made proved that it wasn't the case.
10th Apl-M-PJA-10-1
THE PRESIDENT: Anyhow, Dr. Laternser, we have your position now, and the Tribunal will consider how far you may be allowed to do it in the future.
DR. LATERNSER: Very well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Colonel Pokrovsky. BY COLONEL POKROVSKY: by a representative of the Soviet Prosecution; is that not so?
Q You gave correct and accurate testimony, did you not? asked you then? I will help you to recollect the questions that were asked you. or departments? dealing with prisoners of war which you headed from 1 March 1943 up to 31 March 1944. You headed the Prisoner of War Department, did you not? concerned with the treatment of prisoners of war, specifically, the questions of punishments, legal supervision, and so on. It was this subdivision that was in constant touch with Counter-Intelligence Corps on the subject of theprisoners of war, is that correct? like you to state to the Tribunal right now just how much or what did you know about the way the Soviet prisoners of war were treated, both in the camps themsolves and when the prisoners of war were being transferred from one camp to another. What happened to them, both in the camps and on route? Russian prisoners of war were treated on the basis of political considerations. After 1942, that was changed, and beginning in 1943, as long as I was in the OKW, prisoners of war were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
That is to say, in all points their treatment was coordinated with that of other prisoners of war; their rations were the same as those of the others, and their employment and so on and so forth, and their treatment was in every detail in accordance with that treatment given to other prisoners of war, with certain exceptions. especially concerned with the questions of feeding and clothing the prisoners of war. Is that correct?
A The task of Group IV was matters of administration. It had to deal with instructions and directives regarding rations, in contact with the Minister for Food. It also had to deal with clothing. charge of the Prisoner of War Department, the knowledge that you received about the soviet prisoners of war was to the effect that the Soviet prisoners of war were not treated according to international law. Is that correct? the basis of political considerations, which originated not from the OKW but from Hitler personally.
Q In other words, just what do you want to say about that? Geneva Convention until 1942.
Q In other words, not according to international law, right? I was still serving at the front and did not know details regarding the instructions.
Q Very well. Tell me, was there in the OKW a special group or section which dealt exclusively with transportation matters concerning the prisoners of war? The transports themselves were not a matter for OKW. They were a matter for the individual camp commanders. of war from one camp to another took place?
A Transports of prisoners of war were ordered by the OKW. The execution of such transports of prisoners was a matter fir the camp commandants, who had their corresponding orders from the commanders of prisoners of war in army districts. The actual transport was not a matter for the OKW. what conditions the transfer from one point to another took place. Do you know that thousands of prisoners died on route from cold and hunger? Are you aware of that? Do you know anything about it at all? back to the earlier years when I was not yet in the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces. As long as I was there, I had no reports on any scale saying that large numbers of them did loose their lives. The orders which the OKW gave regarding transports of prisoners of war were clear-cut, and the commanders of th camps were responsible for the orderly way in which these transports had to take place. many prisoners of war died. Now I would like you to look at a document, Number 10021 USSR. It consists of the minutes of the meeting of the Ministry of Economics of the Reich. It has not been submitted to the Tribunal so far. It is date 29 February 1942. The minutes were taken of the meeting which took place at ten o'clock in the morning. The report given by Dr. Mansfeld, General Plenipotentiary for the use of manpower was heard. The three lines which particularly interest me are underlined with red pencil on the copy that is before you right now. It states there:
"The utilization of the Soviet prisoners of war is particularly important today. It is useless to transfer manpower in open or unheated boxcars, for in this case all we unload is corpses."
Have you found this place? of a train of living persons, corpses were unloaded? Have you heard anything about that until you took charge of your particular job in the OKW? Has anyone reported to you about these things?
into the juridiction of the OKW, as is clear from the document. This was a matter for the operational sectors. The juridiction of the OKW was in the main the German Reich and the original states. The OKW had the right to decide about the prisoners of war by the army and it was reported, "You are going to get that and that figure," and they came into our camps. What happened in the operational territory to those people, that we could not control in detail. serving at the front.
Lock at the left side of the document at the top. There is a note there that this comes from the Ministry of Economics, does it not?
Left, at the top, under the number. Do you see it?
Q Very well. Does it not seem to you that this document confirms the fact that OKW knew about it?
No more questions, Mr. President, to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, as this document has not been put in before, should you not read the first paragraph of it? It seems to contain material evidence.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: The first paragraph of the document, the way it appears in the Russian translation at least, is like this:
"Minutes of the representative of the Ministerial Director, Dr. Mansfield, Deputy General for the mobilization of labor on general questions regarding the mobilization of manpower, dated 19 February 1942. 10:00 A.M."
The meeting took place in the Reich Chamber of Economy. Present were, from the Ministry of the Military Economy, and from the OKW, Dr. Grotius.
"The present difficulties in the question of the utilization of manpower would not have arisen if we had decided in time to utilize the Russian Prisoners-of-War on a larger scale."
This is the first paragraph, Mr. President. Further down there are three lines which interest me in this document.
"There are over 3,000,000 Russians in ourpower, at present there are only 1,000,000 and 1/10 of a million left. Only, in November 1941 and January 1942, 1/2 million Russians died."
Have I read sufficiently, Mr. President, or do you want me to read further?
THE PRESIDENT: No, go on.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: "It will be hardly possible to increase the number of employed Russians today. There are 400,000 working today. However, the typhus cases are increasing. If they do decrease there may be a possibility to employ from 100,000 to 150,000 more. Compared to that, the employment of Russian civilians is gaining constantly greater importance.
There are, all together today, between 600,000 and 550,000 Russian civilians among whom 300,000 are skilled industrial workers and 300,000 and somewhat over could be used for agriculture.
The employment of these Russians is a question of transportation."
THE PRESIDENT: That's what you read before.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: That is right. I would like to direct your attention once more to the fact that there isstamped on the document, the Ministry of the Military Economics and the Ministry of Industrial ...
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, that doesnot appear in our translation, but I guess you are right. At least, I don't see it. Could you let us see your document?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: The original will be shown to you immediately. Left, at the top, in the left corner, where the abbreviations are stamped.
THE PRESIDENT: These letters and numbers? These letters and numbers indicate OKW although they don't say it?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: That's right.
THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say that? I mean, the actual letters which are there look to me like Ru III Z ST Az i k 32/310 Wi Ru Amt/Ru III Z St?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: In deciphering these abbreviations, which was done by our American colleague, the full significance of each word was given to me. The data which the American Prosecution has belongs to the OKW and those are the usual abbreviations for the Ministry of Military Economics.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to ask you to ask the witness whether he knows anything about the man mentioned at the right, further down at the right. Dr. Gotha. Never mind I will ask him. QUESTIONS BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Do you know who Dr. Gotha was and whether he was employed in the OKW or in the Army?
A No, I have never heard the name Dr. Gotha. I never had any dealings or contacts with him.
Q Have you got the document in front of you?
A No, I haven't get it any longer. Gotha's name. Do they indicate that he was a member of the OKW?
A I don't know about him. I don't know what that means and the OKW has nothing to do with this whole matter.
document mean? The ones I just read out now?
A Ru III you mean?
A That, I think, is the rearmament department No. 3. I assume that's what it probably means.
Q Well, that would be in connection with the OKW, would it not? with the armament department. The OKW, at least my department in it, had dealings only with the General plenipotentiaries for labor and the Ministry of Speer. Just how it was divided is unknown to me.
Q Did you know of or did you know Dr. Mansfeld?
A I didn't understand the question.
Q Did you know Dr. Mansfeld?
A No I didn't know him and I have never heard his name.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: The question of Dr. Mansfeld, about Dr. Mansfeld, could be asked probably, of Mr. Sauckel.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Technically speaking the Tribunal cannot accept from you that there letters at the too mean the OKW. It may be perfectly true, but you cannot give evidence about it. So you can prove it some other way possibly.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: It was reported to the Tribunal already--the scheme of the organization and the fact that the American Prosecution has deciphered these abbreviations. For that reason, it seems to me that the question might be put to the witness as to the fact that the document does concern the OKW. However, it would be quite easy to show or to submit hear the organizational scheme of the OKW, or the Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire. witness, Mr. Wielen at 2.00 o'clock (The Tribunal adjourned until 1400 hours).