It says "Reference", and then it quotes seven different orders from the year 1942 up to the beginning of July, 1944. This order deals with the question of escaped prisoners of war and should have been included into this document. If the Military Service Department of that district had had Such an order, that factis remarkable, and it has convinced me that there has never been a written order and that the Military authorities in question never received such an order. I cannot say more about it since I cannot prove it. Russian prisoners of war were to be mocked by means of tattooing. Would you please make a statement on that?
A The facts are the following: General of the army, to whom he talked for several hours at headquarters, and who reported to him the conditions in the rear eastern army territory. I was suddenly called in, and I was told that the quartermaster General was reporting that Russian prisoners of war were escaping by the Thousands every month; that they disapeared among the population; and they were liable to become civilians at once because they could discard their uniforms, and that they could, therefore, not be identified any longer. ying them, which could be visible even after they had dicarded their clothing and would mark them as prisoners of war. Consequently, I sent instructions to Berlin, saying that such an order should be prepared but that it should be investigated first by the International Law Department of the Foreign Office to find out whether such an order could be given at all; and, secondly, of course, how it could be carried out technically. tattooing, as has been practiced by so many seamen and laborers in Germany, but I didn't hear any more. But one day I met the Foreign Minister at the headquarters and I accosted him and talked to him about the question. The Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop know about the inquiry made at the Foreign Office and considered the whole thing as extremely trivial. That was the first news I had Apr5-M-RT-4-4 about the subject.
I gave immediate instructions, whether personally or through the adjutant I can't remember, that the order was not to go out. Up to that time I had neither seen a draft nor anything which I had to sign. At any rate I gave the clear order that that order was not to be published. I don't think I received any more detailed information. I heard nothing more about it, and I was convinced that the order had not been published.
Now I have learned through my Defense Counsel that the woman secretary of the Chief of the Prisoner of War System on her own initiative has offered to testify and state that she had orders that it should be withdrawn and should not go out, that they had received those instructions personnaly, but she did said in her statement that this had only happened several days after the order had actually gone out, and that is the only explanation of how that order cannot be found in the police Department as not being withdrawn.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I shall submit the affidavit of the witness which has been received. I shall submit it to the Tribunal at the appropria te time.
Q We are now turning to the case of Sagan: Originally the Prosecution have accused you of having given the order for the killing of fifty Royal Air Force officer who had escaped from Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan. It is no longer quite clear to me whether the Prosecution even today are still maintaining this accusation, since Reich Marshal Goering and the witness, Westhof -- the latter outside the court room -- have been interrogated or examined. I have before me the interrogation report of Westhof's interrogation and I have submitted it to you. I would like to ask you now to supplement the statement of the witness Westhof, things which he has said and which no doubt he will say in this court room in the future, and to state what you yourself know about this extremely serious incident. escape had taken place. At the some time I received the information that about fifteen of the escaped officers had been apprehended in the vicinity of the camp. At the midnight report at Berchtesgaden, at the Berghof, I had intended to report this, on the whole, very unpleasant case, which had been the third mass-escape in a very brief period -- I had intended not to report it. I had hoped that in the course of the day the majority of them would have been caught, so that this matter might have found a natural solution. During my report Himmler appeared and I think that it was towards the end of my situation report that he in my presence reported the incident, since he had as usual caused a general search for the escaped prisoners.
tier and myself, since he raised the incredible accusation against me immediately because of this incident. and that is why I an making a detailed statement. tement, "These prisoners are not to be returned to the Armed Forces but to remain with the Police". I immediately objected. I said that this procedure was impossible. The situation led to it that Hitler repeated and declared once more "I am ordering that you, Himmler, will retain then; you will not give then up." in accordance with the original order had to be taken out of camps and surrendered to the police. That I succeeded in doing, but that was all.
Q Please, will you tell me who was present during that row ? partly present, having heard some of these things, though perhaps not every words because to begin with he was in the adjoining room. At any rate, Jodl and I returned together to our quarters and we discussed the case and talked about the extreme awkward consequences which the whole matter would have. On my return to my quarters I immediately ordered General von Graevenitz to visit me and told him to report to me the following morning. sent. If I have been a little uncertain about that some time during an interrogation, then it was because I was told that witnesses had already confirmed that Goering was present. But right from the beginning I considered it was improbable and doubtful. It is therefore also incorrect that Goering raised any accusations against me at the time. There hadn't been a conference in Berlin either. These are mistakes which I think I can explain by saying that the report made by Graevenitz who came with Westhoff, that he had experienced a scene such as was most unusual in military life, because of the harshness of the words I used in that connection, because of that incident.
Do you want me to say anything more about the discussion with Graevenitz? reiterated Hitler's order, which he had given earlier, in such a sense that he, Graevenitz, and Westhof who was also present, would gather the Impression and be of the opinion that you yourself had issued the order for the shooting of the escaped fliers?
AAccording to the record of this interrogation of Westhof's , which I have seen, I can, I think, clarify it by saying the following: ted. I must say that even the order that the prisoners were to be retained by the police caused me extreme worry regarding their fate. I want to say that openly, because the possibility of their being shot during escape did excite in my conscience. I certainly talked in extreme excitement at that time and didn't weigh every word carefully. And I have certainly repeated Hitler's words, which were, "We must set an example". Since I was afraid of any further serious interferences with the prisoners of war system in any otehr form, apart from this incident of the non-returning of the prisoners to the Armed Forces after having read the record and after having sees Westhof at the same time that I had said "They will be shot, and most of them are probably dead already," I consider it probable that I have said some such words. I may have siad, "You will see what an unfortunate story this is; it is quite possible so many have already been shot." I knew nothing, however, about the fact that shootings had already taken place, and I must admit and confess that Hitler never said a word about anybody being shot, in my presence. He only said, "Himmler, you will hang on to them; don't give them up." The fact that shootings had taken place did not become known to me until several days later, and I gather from the filer and the Government reports from the British Government that not until the 31st -the escape having been on the 25 -- that not until the 31st did the actual shootings take place. that the order had already been issued in the camp that it was to be made known who had escaped and that a nominal roll had to be published of those who had been shot. That order didn't come until later, and I remember it. I remember it because of the following story:
the adjutants told no that a report had been received that shootings had taken place. I requested a discussion alone with Hitler, and told him that I had heard that people had been shot, through the police. All he told me was that he too had received that. In extreme disgust I told him what my opinion was, and at that time he told me that it was to be published in the camp to scare the others, and subsequently that announcement appeared in the camps. At any rate, some of the recollections which Westhof has sworn to are not quite correct in his recollection. Even his expressions as he puts them may have faults
Q Did Hitler tell you at any time that he had ordered the shootings?
A No, he has never told me that. I have never heard it from him. I heard it very much later, as far as I can remember, through Reich Marshal Goering, wince the whole incident was of course the subject of many discussions and conversations, it being an Air Force camp.
Q And now I should like to say finally: Am I right in saying that you are stating under oath here that you did neither give such an order for the killing of these Air Force officers yourself personnaly, nor did you receive and transmit such an order, nor did you learn yourself who gave the order?
A That is correct. I neither received that order nor did I know or hear of it; nor did I pass such an order on. That I can state and repeat under oath.
Q We are now turning to deportations: What the Prosecution consider the deportation of workers to be, is the transfer of citizens of occupied territories to Germany or other accupied territories for the purpose of using them for slave labor on defense work or for any other tasks connected with warfare. That is the accusation which I have just read to you. Now, the prosecution has connected your name to these accusations repeatedly, in the sense that you had taken care of supplying workers to Germany war economy -- you and the OKW. You know that actually the Defendant Sauckel was the Plenipotentiary in that sphere and I should like to ask you whether before Plenipotentiary Sauckel had been appointed, workers had been taken from the occupied territories and brought to Gemany.
particularly the Wesr, Belgium, Holland -- I don't know about Holland; but France -- workers were transferred from these territories to Germany. That is, at least how I heard it, according to what I heard, it was done by voluntary recruiting. I think I can remember that on one occasion General von Stuelpnagel the military commander of Paris, told me in Berlin during a meeting that more than two hundred thousand volunteers had reported, but just when that was, I cannot recollect now.
A. The first two documents, PS-137 and PS-138, were dictated in part by me at headquarters. They were sent to departments of the Army, and it says here, "To the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, to the Commander of the Wehrmacht in the Netherlands, and the Commander-in-Chief of the Army for Occupied France. These matters originated to answer questions put by various military departments who considered themselves responsible for the safekeeping or guarding of those things which were in occupied territories, and also officers who obviously were to collect and to register or otherwise be connected with theseobjects of art-libraries -- and wanted to confiscate them. called me over the phone. In other cases I believe through Rosenberg the Fuehrer gave me his directions that I was to instruct military departments to agree that they were concerned with directives which he had ordered and with which he agreed. You can see that those documents were given out by my adjutant I myself dictated them on the orders of the Fuehrer and transmitted them. Perhaps these inquiries occurred because nothing had been prescribed prior to that time. Just what happened or was to happen to these objects of art I did not know. I always represented the view that we were concerned with safeguarding, and confiscation was not to be thought of. That question didn't ever occur to me at the time. did not concern myself with those mutters at all. I considered these measures to be purely protective, and did no consider than unjust because of that reasons.
A. Then you mean the OKW had jurisdiction, no competence?
A. No.
Q. It was just a transmission of letters to officers and departments to make known 'the will of Hitler and to support Rosenberg in his task?
A. That is right.
Q. In this connection I would like to out a personal question to you. Did you at any time so far as tire objects of art of conquered countries or occupied countries are concerned either from state or private property -- did you ever take any of those objects of art or did any department give you any object of art?
A. No, I was never concerned or connected with these matters at all.
Q. Now, we will come to the so-called economic exploitation of occupied countries. In this connection, in your position as Chief of the OKW, you are accused of participating in the economic exploitation of the occupied eastern countries and the western occupied countries. This question has already been touched in the testimony and cross-examination of Reich Marshal Goering, therefore I will try to treat this matter relatively briefly. But I need a certain amount of clarification from you, that is, how far you and OKW were connected with these matters, for your name and OKW and you yourself are mentioned frequently in this connection. Through the Wirtschafts Ruestungs Amt (economic armament office), which was a branch of the OKW, General Thomas prepared a compilation which was produced by the prosecution. What can you tell me to this question, when I submit document 1157-PS and USSR-80 to you? If I submit these two documents to you -
A.PS-1157 deals with the Plan Barbarossa Oldenburg. I would like to say the following: The Wehr Wirtschafts Amt under the leadership of General Thomas, so far as the organization in the Reich which had its corresponding offices first of all for the campaign in the west and then for the campaign Barbarossa in the east is concerned, carried out certain organizational preparations to the effect so that the high command post, such as supreme command post, and advisers and experts for war economy and supply questions, that they receive this personnel. The persons who were with the quartermaster had the task in occupied and conquered countries, so far as food supplies, grains, and so forth were concerned, to take over all of these supplies which could be used for the army. They were to safeguard these supplies, and then in connection with the General who took care of supplies for the army and he who was in charge for the bringing up of supplies for the advancing troops, that all of this material was to be placed at their disposal. measures were taken so far as war economy is concerned These things were saved for later use in the east, an I believe Reich Marshal Goering has already explained these matters at length. A totally different method was used, that is, not only that of supplying of troops, but also the exploitation of these conquered territories; and organization was planned accordingly.
The Wirtschafts Amt Ost and Oldenburg -- that was the name given to it. also must be limited whereby organizational preparation of the technical experts which were required worked together with the Four-Year Plan and the food ministry and the Wirtschafts Organization Oldenburg. So far as the giving of orders and its activity, the OKW and its chief -- that is me -- we did not have any command power. The organization had been in existence, and it was now to be used by him who had the task to apply this instrument, to give instructions, and to work with it. When General Thomas wrote in his book, which is available here as a document -
Q. 2353-PS, page 386. Perhaps you can give us a summary after you have finished reading it?
A. Yes. This is an excerpt from the book by General Thomas in which he described his own activity and the activity of the organization which he directed in the OKW. Beginning with the origin of the organization up until the war years he says here, "The activity of the Wirtschafts Ruestungs Amt during the execution of the eastern campaign was to be considered only as a directive principle and in the counselling of the east."
Q. Please ready only paragrph four for your summary.
Q Was the OKW officially connected with these questions?
A No, the OKW had nothing to do with it. These matters were handles through the well known channels--the supreme commanders of the army and then through the military commander in France or Belgium, but, of course, the essential departments were those at home in the Reich, but the OKW has never had anything to do with this. territories? armed forces had been excluded from any administrative or executive powers. In those territories, therefore, the armed forces and their subdepartments had nothing to do with it either. Only in those territories, which were still operational areas for the army did we have executive powers, the military troops, the supreme commanders, so an and so forth. The OKW was once again not included in the service channels. gation which has been submitted here, said that it was a matter for you or the OKW to instruct the military commanders of the occupied territories and that he, during his recruiting campaigns, had had their support. What can you say of that? by the fact that he neither knew the official service channels nor the jurisdictions that were used in the armed forces. Also, on one or two occasions, he may have seen me present during discussions regarding the furnishing of laborers, and, thirdly, on occasion he came to see me when he reported to me after he had his orders. It was probably by Hitler's orders that he went to see the Chief of the OKW, but the OKW had nothing to do with it. It had no right to give orders, but I did agree to represent the General Quartermaster and Saukel in any matters connected with the OKW, but any orders to military commanders or any such service departments in the occupied territories have never been given by me. It was, in fact, not one of the tasks of the OKW to do so. Stapf and Nagel had agreed to ask you to exercise pressure or coercion during the recruiting campaigns in the East.
That, at any rate, is the statement made by the Prosecution.
Do you know this story? presented. It was obviously an attempt on the part of Stapf, who had worked under me for a long time, to got some cooperation of the Fuehrer through me as an intermediary. An attempt had obviously been made by Stapf, who was the Director of the Economic Staff East at the time, and General Nagel, who was also mentioned in this connection, who had the Economic Inspectorate Department in the East, an attempt to include me in the problem and, according to the document, to try to have some pressure brought to bear from above, but I took no steps at all on that as I had nothing to do with these matters.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we might adjourn now.
( A recess was taken.) directives regarding the safeguarding and confiscation of objects of art, libraries, and so forth. Before the campaign in the West or in the East, were there any military orders, directives or general principles laid down which would apply to objects of art and how these things were to be treated?
A. No, according to my knowledge, nothing existed about these matters at all. We had thought carefully and thoroughly, but in this respect, nothing had been done, and I do not know that any directives or any instructions of any kind existed. the French Prosecution--in which you are mentioned in connection with the special staff of Rosenberg. These are documents PS-137, PS-138, and PS-140. They are documents by the Chief of the OKW to the commander in chief of the army in France and in the Netherlands.
A "For the leadership of economy or general directives of the Eastern territory the Wirtschaftsfuehrungs Stab Ost, which belonged to the Four-Year Plan and the Plan Barbarossa Oldenburg, was responsible.
All State Secretaries were responsible. Responsible for the execution of all measures of economic and armament matters was the Wirtschaftstab Ost under the direction and command of the Reichsmarshal.
Q What were the relations or the conditions in the West? the Quartermaster Corps in the West at a later phase of occupation--as far as anything beyond a continuous supply for daily needs of the troops, including fuel, was concerned, there was a special directive beginning with June that has already been explained by the Reichsmarshal, and the power for that was given over to the Four-Year Plan and the plenipotentiary for that. That was the Fuehrer decree. tioned, and it was laid down by General Thomas on page 304. I don't need to read this and ask that the High Tribunal permit, so that questions on this matter might be presented, that the affidavit of the defendant in Document Book No. 2, for the Wirtschaftsruestungs Amt (The Economic Armament Office) in the OKW would be considered as Document K 11 to be submitted in evidence. I assume that the Prosecution will agree with this procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: What number is it in Book 2?
DR. NELTE: Document Book No. 2.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but -
DR. NELTE: No. 4 in this Document Book No. 2. It is page 27 and following, Document Book 2, which has been submitted to the Court. The document is dated 29 March 1946.
THE PRESIDENT: What date did you say it is?
DR. NELTE: The 29th of March 1946. I believe there is no date found in the copy on the document book. I will present the original. The date is on that original.
THE PRESIDENT: How is it described at the head of the document? We have a document dated 4 March 1946, "The Economic Armament Office of the Supreme Command of the Wehrmacht".
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.
DR. NELTE: It is possible, Mr. President, but there does not seem to be any doubt about the identity of the document. BY DR. NELTE: again beforethe High Tribunal, a topic which seems to be very difficult on the account and especially since very little understanding is known as to why these questions are put. In any event, you have been accused of the fact that in your capacity as a member of the government, as the Prosecution contends, you had knowledge, and must have had knowledge, of these things which took place in concentration camps. Therefore I am obligated to put this question to you: Just what you know about the existence of the concentration camps--how much you knew and in what connection you had contact with them. Did you know about the existence of concentration camps? Did you know that they did exist? camps andat that time I knew of two camps, and I surmized and assumed that beyond these two which I knew of there were other concentration camps. As far as further particulars are concerned about the existence of concentration camps, I didn't have them. As far as internees in such camps were concerned, I knew that habitual criminals were there and political opponents, and as Reichsmarshal Goering has said, that was the basis of these institutions. That was the reason for having them. Shall I continue?
Q Did you hear anything about the treatment of internees?
A No, I had no particulars and heard nothing. I assumed that this was an apprehension place where severe measures would be taken, or severer measures would be taken, and were taken; but as to actual conditions and as far as mistreatment of internees was concerned, as has been shown here, I didn't know about that. Once I was concerned with the freeing of Pastor Niemoeller, and that was in connection with Raeder. I tried on the request of Grand Admiral Raeder to free Pastor Niemoeller from the concentration camp, this this attempt did not succeed.
I made a second attempt on the request of a family in my home village where a farmer was in a concentration camp because of a political matter, and in this case I succeeded.
The individual involved was freed. That was in the autumn of 1940. I talked with this man, and on the question of just what did take place he gave me an answer which really didn't tell me anything; but anything beyond that I did not hear from this man. Beyond that I knew nothing of other cases. had happened to this man?
A Undoubtedly. I didn't see him directly after his release. I saw him later at my own home and talked with him, because he thanked me. He didn't say anything about having been badly treated or anything like that at all. had been officers of the Wehrmacht. Himmler. I was invited by him personally, once. That waste visit the Camp Dachau that he wanted me to see; and I know that officers in delegations of a larger or smaller number visited to inspect and see what was going on. But I am not able to say just what took place, especially in connection with what has been shown. As a supplement I would like to say it was not-one would hear that all sorts of things took place in concentration camps I do know that if any one had voiced these rumors to me and one would have said, "What do you know and just where do you know that from"? this person would always say, "I really don't know; I just heard this myself." You could never pin a person like that down. One might have had thoughts about these things, but as far as actual knowledge of these things was concerned, no one had any real knowledge and couldn't have it.
and that that allegedly took place in connection with higher channels. I would like to know whether you personally, or you in your official capacity, had knowledge of that.
A No, neither in my official capacity nor in any other way; I never heard anything about these medical experiments. by the prosecution that you intended, or, in any case, were participating, in aiming to have General Weygand and Giraud Assassinated. that Admiral Canaris, since November of 1940, was being pressed by you to do away with the Chief of the French General Staff, General Weygand. Lahousen said further that Canaris told theheads of his departments that, after having talked with you.
Did you talk with Canaris about this case of General Weygand? intelligence reports that General Weygand was traveling in North Africa, that he was inspecting colonial troops as well, I consider it as a matter of course that I told the Chief of Counter-Intelligence, Canaris. It would have to be possible to determine the aim of his journey, at which spots he was traveling in North Africa, and whether any military significance should be attached to this visit, whether there were any intentions on his part towards any activation of the Colonial Troops in North Africa. He was to try, through his department to find out just what was taking place.
Q And I assume to have him watched? Africa?
A I believe so, yes, by way of Spain and Spanish Morocco. There were had connections to Morocco by way of Spain, and he made use of these channels. France, an official possibility existed to visit North Africa.
A Yes, of course. After the armistice there were Disarmament Commissions, and these commissions were in North Africa, as well as in France.
Many departments of the Army were connected with the control of the armament of the North African troops.
Q Could there have been any interest in wishing General Weygand ill? Was he a specific opponent of Germany? Could it have been for political reasons or what reasons? might be considered uncomfortable -- there is no basis for any statement like that. At the end of September and the beginning of October of the same year, connections with Marshal Petain had been started then, on the well-known collaboration policy, which, in the winter of 1940-41, reached its climax. It was absurd to even think of wanting to do away with the Chief of Staff of not to be thought of because we had many officers and professional soldiers in the Colonial Army in the winter of 1940-1941. We freed them from their imprisonment and gave them to the French Government for their use. Among them there were generals,and I remember General Juin, who, according to our knowledge at that time, had been Chief of the General Staff of North Africa for many years At my suggestion this man was put at the disposal of the Marshal, with the aim of using him for Colonial purposes. or to think of anything drastic. and Laval took place about a general operation in Africa and an enforcement of West Africa?
A Yes. Among the documents of the French Armistice Delegation there must be a large number of documents in which all conceptions regarding North Africa and Central and West Africa were asked for in connection with the fact that even in the winter of 1940-41, in French Central Africa, riots had taken place, against which the French Government wanted to take measures.
I believe in the spring of 1941, in Paris, a conference of several days' duration took place, with the French General Staff, for the preparation of measures in which the German Wehrmacht would participate.
with Canaris something must have been said which could lead to this misunderstanding. Can you tell me anything at all which might have brought about this misunderstanding? testimony, perhaps at a later meeting I said, "Just what about Weygand?" Then Lahousen might have drawn the conclusion in that sense, as he pictured it here. He said, "Dem Sinne Nach", in the sense to have him put aside, and, in answer to the question, that was, he said, to have him killed, and it is to be inferred in that way. brought the chiefs of his departments along. In these discussions which we had alone, I believe he was frank with me. If he had misunderstod me, we would have discussed it, but he never said anything like that. considered at all, it would have been an act of high political significance?
A Yes, of course. In the collaboration of Hitler and Petain that would have been one of the most remarkable political acts which would have been possible resulted?
Q You mean with consideration of the personality of Weygand?
Q Can you say anything at all to clarify this matter? Can you state any reason why some things which never did take place -Germany, and the occupation of the so far unoccupied Southern France -- I can tell you only what I was told by the Fuehrer himself. He had decreed that there was to be an interning in his own home, without disturbing the General.
It was to be an honorary guard, but not at all a prisoner of war state. That was in the year 1942.
Q. Therefore, you dispute conclusively and repeatedly under oath that you ever gave an order or in any way expressed yourself that the conclusion might be drawn that you intended or you wished that General Weygand be put aside?
A. Yes, I can confirm and assert that again.
Q. The witness Lahousen also talked about the case Giraud and gave a picture similar to that of the case Weygand, In both cases he was not, because of his own knowledge, in a position to say that you had ordered that, but he did report what Canaris had told him and illustrated his testimony through later happenings. The case Firaud created a sensation at the time. I would like to have you give us your picture as you saw it and your part in the conversations about Giraud.
A. The flight of Giraud from the Fortress Koenigstein near Dresden on the 19th of April, 1942, created much attention, and I was accused of laxity in guarding a military fortress. The escape was successful despite all attempts to recapture him on his way back to France -- to apprhend him either by the police or through the military. and Alsace-Lorraine -- to supervise these border stations most exactly so that we could recapture him. The police were taking part in this humt too. had arrived home in France safely. If in this period any directions were issued by me, in the preliminary interrogations I have already stated these words which were probably used -- "We have to have the general back either dead or alive." Something to that effect I am sure I must have said. He had fled and was now in France.
The second, phase: Through the embassies Foreign Minister Ribbentrop made efforts to have the feneral returned, voluntarily to a state of prisoner. The general declared himself ready to come to the occupied, territory and discuss this matter. My opinion was that it might be possible that the general far as the freeing of French generals from prisonership was concerned.
this meeting was effected with General Firaud and the discussion of his return took place. By telephone I was advised of the presence of the general in occupied territory. It was in the hotel where the German officers were billeted. wish to return voluntarily it would be very simple to apprehend him. The approval for this was categorically refused by me, for I considered it a breach of confidence. The general had come in confidence and he returned unmolested.
Third Phase: The attempt and the wish in some way to have the general book in military custody might be traced back to the fact that Canaris told me that the family of the general was in territory occupied by German troops, and it would be a matter of course that the general would try to see his family, perhaps only after a certain period of time after calm had returned to the situation. He suggested certain measures to me, so that if the general was carrying out such visits to recapture him at that time. Canaris said that he personally would take these preparations through his offices in Paris. course I asked -- Lahousen was with Canaris and other men were with him -what happened in the case of Giraud or just what was taking place on the question of Giraud. The words used by Mr. Lahousen were : "It is very hard but we shall lo everything." That was his answer. Canaris did not reply at all. That is something which I am just seeing today for the first time, although it wasn't significant at that time.
Shall I continue? This is the fourth phase: Hitler now told me, "This is just nonsense. We are not getting any results. Counter intelligence is not concerned with this and can't handle this matter. I will turn this matter over to Himmler and let us keep the counter intelligence out of this, for they will never reapprehend the general."