A If a protecting power represented by a delegation wished to inspect camps, then that was arranged by the department or the inspector for the prisoner of war system, who would accompany that delegation.
I think I ought to say that as far as the French were concerned, Ambassador Scabini officer of the German armed forces?
A I don't know whether in camps the procedure adopted was always in accordance with the basic instructions.
Direct exchange of views between instructions regarding the prisoner of war system personally?
A Yes. With general instructions I did concern myself. Apart from sible for me and dealt with these matters.
These three departments had to ions became necessary; and, as was frequently the case, the Fuehrer comparison to the other prisoners.
What can you say on that subject?
observed or ratified the Geneva Convention; and it was also due to the fact war entered into it here too.
The Fuehrer emphasized that we had a free
Q I am now going to show you the document C-388, USSR 336. It is dated 15 September 1941. Part 1 is a report of the Department Foreign Intelligence in the OKW; and part 2 is a directive of the OKW, dated 8 September 1941, regarding the treatment of Soviet Russian Prisoners of War. Part 3 is a memorandum about guarding of Soviet Prisoners of War, and the last document is an appendix which is a copy of the decree from the Council of People's Commissioners regarding prisoners of War System of July 1 1941. issuedon 2 September, Which can be attributed to the fact that, to start with, there was an order from Hitler, saying that Russian prisoners of war were not to be transported to German Reich territory. This order was later on rescinded; and now, regarding the directive of 8/9/41, which is available in its original test, regarding that, I should like to say that the reason for all these instructions was also due to the point of view that this was a battle of nationalities, people, since Bolshevism is the deadly enemy of National Socialist Germany. That, in my opinion, expresses right at the beginning, the basis on which those instructions were made and the motives to which they were due. It is a fact that Hitler, as I explained yesterday, did not consider this was a formal battle to be waged on the basis of international law, but as a conflict between two world philosophical ideas. Several statements are contained in the document regarding these separations; such persons who we considered as not dangerous, and those who, because of their political activities, had to be separated as being particularly threatening to National Socialism and particularly dangerous. it has been presented here by the prosecutor of the Soviet Union. It is a letter from the Chief of the Foreign Department of Intelligence, Admiral Canaris, in which he refers to that principal order which I have just discussed; to reiterate it for my purpose and add to it a number of explanations, together withhis objections he had about this decree, which he emphasizes underlined, he adds in the memorandum, so I needn't say any more about that. It is an extract and also the orders issued by the Soviet Union on the 1st of July, which are directives for the treatment of prisoners of war; in other words, treatment of German prisoners of war. I received that on the 15th of September, whereas the otherorder had been issued one week before that and after studying this report from Canaris, I must admit that I did share his objection.
Consequently, together with the whole file, I went to Hitler and asked him to stud it and make a statement about it. The Fuehrer told me that we couldn't expect that German prisoners of war would have the treatment according to the Geneva Convention or international law on the other side, but we had no ways of investigating it and that, according to that view, he had no intention of altering directives and that he refused bluntly, and thus I returned the file together with my remarks to Admiral Canaris, which means the order remained in force.
Q What was the treatment of Soviet Russian prisoners of war in effect; was it according to instructions or was it, in effect, handled differently?
AAccording to my own'personal observations and the reports which have been put before me, the practice was considerably better and more favorable than the very severe instructions, whichhad been issued after it had been agreed that the prisoners of war were to be transported to Germany. At any rate, I have seen numerous reports stating that, as far as the employment for labor and, in particular for agriculture, was concerned, that also in the war economy, the general institutions of war economy -- I mean, such as German railways, railroad construction as such, that the conditions in practice were considerably better than they could have been after those hard severe words which are after all contained in these instructions.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, may I on this occasion refer to document No. 6 in the document book?
MRS PRESIDENT: Which document book?
DR. NELTE: Document No. 6, in document book No. 1, No. 6 'Conditions of employment for workers from the East, as well as Soviet Russian prisoners of war. In this document book I have only quoted those passages from that book which I am submitting to you, which concern themselves with the conditions of employment for Soviet Russian prisoners of war. I am submitting this book in evidence as Exhibit K-6, and beg the Tribunal to admit it in evidence and I don't need to read, from it. In these instructions the points are accurately referred to which contain directives, from which it can be seen, that at a later period Soviet Russian prisoners of war, and in accordance with the OKW and the legislative body, we re treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. You don't wish to read from it?
DR. NELTE: No, I didn't want to.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q. Please, will you explain to me just what relations existed between the police or Himmler respectively on one side and the prisoner of war system, the K.G.W. on the other side?
A. May I first of all say that it was a continuous uninterrupted cause of friction, friction between Himmler and the executive police departments and the departments of the armed forces who worked in this sphere and this friction never stopped. The reason -- it was apparent right from the beginning that at least Himmler personally and his subordinates never ceased to try to influence the prisoner of war system in some form or other. the complaints about insufficient guarding of prisoners, the insufficient security measures in the camps, the lack of guards and their inefficiency, all those matters were suitable and were exploited by him and he used them to fall upon our backs continuously. He continually stated that he suspected us of these shortcomings. As a result there were continuous interferences the causes for which I could hardly recognize.
There was interference from Hitler. He adopted these accusations and he interfered with matters continuously so that in this manner the armed forces departments who dealt with these matters were continually upset. Consequently, since I could not investigate the problem, I was forced to give instructions to my officers, to my departments in the O.K.W.
Q. What was the actual cause and the purpose which Himmler attempted to achieve?
A. He wanted not only to have influence but, if possible, he wanted to handle the prisoner of war system as the Police Chief of Germany so that he would reign supreme in these matters.
Q. Did not the question of getting laborers, workers, enter into it?
A. Later on that did become apparent, yes. I think I shall have to refer to that Later but I can say now that one observation in any case was quite clear, namely that after such searches, such hunts, which took place at certain intervals in Germany for escaped persons, the majority of these prisoners of war were obviously not returned to camps from which they had escaped so that quite obviously they had been retained by police departments and used for work under the jurisdiction of Himmler.
The escaped, of course, increased every year. It became more and more voluminous. For that plausible reasons, of course, exist.
Q. The prisoner of war system, of course, is closely connected with the problem of workers. Which department was responsible for the meployment of prisoners of war?
A. The department dealing with the county labor offices in the so-called Reichslabor Administration Service, which had originally been in the hands of the Labor Minister and was later on transferred to the Plenipotentiary for Labor.
In practice it happened like this. The county labor department would state their requirements to the army district commanders who had jurisdiction over the comes. They demanded workers and these workers were supplied to them as far as that was possible under the existing general directives.
Q. What did the O.K.W. have to do with the allocation of labor?
A. In general, of course, the supervision so that the employment would take place according to the general and principal instructions which existed in which connection it was not possible, of course, not even for the inspector to examine each individual case of the employment of prisoners. For that, after all, the army district commanders and their prisoner of war system were responsible and they were the suitable persons. really start until 1942. Until then the main employer of such workers had been agriculture and the German railway system and a number of general institutions but not as much industry and this applies particularly to Soviet prisoners of war who were in the main agricultural men.
Q. What was the actual cause for these labor requirements?
A. During the winter of 1941-42 the problem arose how soldiers who had dropped out, particularly in the eastern theater of war, could be replaced.
Requirements which had to be covered were considerable, requirements for soldiers who could go to the front and join fighting units. Expressed in figures I know now that the army alone had an annual requirement of two to two and a half million replacements.
if you consider that about one million of that would come from normal recruiting and that half a million would come from rehabilitated men, then that leaves one million and a half which had to be replaced every year and, they could, be withdrawn from the war economy and placed at the disposal of the services, the armed forces. That in turn was the cause for the very short term exchange of these workers from the war economy one in turn their replacement by new workers, workers who one tried to find from among prisoners of war on one side and who, on the other hand were found through the Plenipotentiary Sauckel, who had the task of finding workers. for all replacements for the entire armed forces, that is to say recruiting and I was conciously concerned with this flow of manpower. That is the reason also why, during discussions held, with the Fuehrer referring to the replacements and finding of such replacements I was present. industry and in the armament industry? industry which even indirectly was connected with armament. It was due to a specific order from Hitler which he had issued because he thought that there might be sabotage against machines and production, matters which he considered as extremely probable and Very dangerous. Only when the emergency came more and more apparent and whom every worker had to be included in production in some form or other did we abandon that priciple. It was no longer discussed and prisoners of war were after that used in the general war production and in that connection it was my view and this is reflection in my general instructions, that their use in armament industry was prohibited to the army district, commander that is to say only in such industry which was actually producing ammunition and arms.
But, so as to complete the story, I think I ought to add that at a later stage a Fuehrer order once more provided for a further easing of the existing instructions. They became even more loose after that, and I think it has been said here that MinicterSpeer is supposed to have talked about, I don't know how many thousands of prisoners of war who Were actually employed in matters of war economy. But I should like to say that many jobs had to be done in the armament industry, which have nothing to do with the actual production of arms and ammunition. of war were apprehended and detained by the police and were even located in concentration camps. Can you give an explanation about that? earlier this morning, took place in the camps; that is, the flaying of prisoners Furthermore, as is known from documents, prisoners of war, against whom the powers of discipline of the commandant were not sufficient, were separated and handed over to the Secret State Police. Finally, I have already mentioned the subject of prisoners who had escaped and were caught and said that a majority of them were not returned to their camps, but other instructions on the part of the OKW or the Chief of the Prisoner of War System in that direction, regarding the surrender of these prisoners to concentration camps, are not known to me and have never been issued. But, through various channels, through witnesses and documents, the facts have been presented here; namely, that the channel was that of handing these men over to the police and that they did end up in these concentration camps. That is my explanation. 1650-PS. This is an order, or I'd rather say that it's supposed to be an order from the OKW ordering that prisoners of war, who have escaped and who were not working, are to be surrendered to the Security Service,the SD. After what you've just told us, you will, no doubt, have to give a statement about that. Furthermore, I am ssowing you the document 1514-PS, which is an order from the armed forces, Regional District No. 6. from which you will be able to see the procedure adopted by the OKW on connection with the surrender of prisoners of war to the Secret State Police.
Apr5-M-RT-4-2
A First of all, I want to talk about the document 1650-PS. To begin with I have to state that I did'nt know that order and that I saw it for the first time here during this trial and that, even up to now, I haven't been able to establish the fact regarding how it came about.
Q Wouldn't you like to say, first of all, that the document as such is not a document of the OKW? in a police department. It starts with the words "The OKW has ordered". After that come three numbers, and then it goes in to say, "In this connection I order -- and that's the Supreme Chief of the RSHA. It is signed by Mueller, not Kaltenbrunner. I have most certainly not signed this order, the OK numbers 1 to 3, and I haven't seen it. About that there is no doubt. The fact alone that the expression "Stage 3-D" is used proves that those are expressions which are unknown to me; they are deplete expressions. I have to state, therefore, that even now I am not sure how this document was compiled. I can't clarify the situation. There are possibilities, and I should like to name them briefly because I have thought about this a very great deal. First, I don't believe that any department of the OKW, or the Prisoner of war system, or that the chief of the general armed forces department could have issued this order without having instructions. I consider that quite impossible. It was completely contrary to the general tendencies. I have no recollection that I have ever given any instructions or have ever received any instructions of this type from Hitler or that I have passed any such instruction on to anybody else. Finally, even if this may look like an excuse, there were, of course, Certain channels which the Fuehrer used, without regard to the proper competent channels. And, if I look for an explanation, well, then there would be the adjutant through whom such orders could have been possible but that I had not heard about it. I emphasize that this is a guess and that it cannot be quoted in my favor. 1514-PS. This is a captured order from the Army District Command No. 6, which is dated July 27, 1944. In other words, it was in the summer of 1944. It deals with prisoners of war who have escaped and how they are to be dealt with.
It says "Reference", and then it quotes seven different orders from the year 1942 up to the beginning of July, 1944. This order deals with the question of escaped prisoners of war and should have been included into this document. If the Military Service Department of that district had had Such an order, that factis remarkable, and it has convinced me that there has never been a written order and that the Military authorities in question never received such an order. I cannot say more about it since I cannot prove it. Russian prisoners of war were to be mocked by means of tattooing. Would you please make a statement on that?
A The facts are the following: General of the army, to whom he talked for several hours at headquarters, and who reported to him the conditions in the rear eastern army territory. I was suddenly called in, and I was told that the quartermaster General was reporting that Russian prisoners of war were escaping by the Thousands every month; that they disapeared among the population; and they were liable to become civilians at once because they could discard their uniforms, and that they could, therefore, not be identified any longer. ying them, which could be visible even after they had dicarded their clothing and would mark them as prisoners of war. Consequently, I sent instructions to Berlin, saying that such an order should be prepared but that it should be investigated first by the International Law Department of the Foreign Office to find out whether such an order could be given at all; and, secondly, of course, how it could be carried out technically. tattooing, as has been practiced by so many seamen and laborers in Germany, but I didn't hear any more. But one day I met the Foreign Minister at the headquarters and I accosted him and talked to him about the question. The Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop know about the inquiry made at the Foreign Office and considered the whole thing as extremely trivial. That was the first news I had Apr5-M-RT-4-4 about the subject.
I gave immediate instructions, whether personally or through the adjutant I can't remember, that the order was not to go out. Up to that time I had neither seen a draft nor anything which I had to sign. At any rate I gave the clear order that that order was not to be published. I don't think I received any more detailed information. I heard nothing more about it, and I was convinced that the order had not been published.
Now I have learned through my Defense Counsel that the woman secretary of the Chief of the Prisoner of War System on her own initiative has offered to testify and state that she had orders that it should be withdrawn and should not go out, that they had received those instructions personnaly, but she did said in her statement that this had only happened several days after the order had actually gone out, and that is the only explanation of how that order cannot be found in the police Department as not being withdrawn.
DR. NELTE: Mr. President, I shall submit the affidavit of the witness which has been received. I shall submit it to the Tribunal at the appropria te time.
Q We are now turning to the case of Sagan: Originally the Prosecution have accused you of having given the order for the killing of fifty Royal Air Force officer who had escaped from Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan. It is no longer quite clear to me whether the Prosecution even today are still maintaining this accusation, since Reich Marshal Goering and the witness, Westhof -- the latter outside the court room -- have been interrogated or examined. I have before me the interrogation report of Westhof's interrogation and I have submitted it to you. I would like to ask you now to supplement the statement of the witness Westhof, things which he has said and which no doubt he will say in this court room in the future, and to state what you yourself know about this extremely serious incident. escape had taken place. At the some time I received the information that about fifteen of the escaped officers had been apprehended in the vicinity of the camp. At the midnight report at Berchtesgaden, at the Berghof, I had intended to report this, on the whole, very unpleasant case, which had been the third mass-escape in a very brief period -- I had intended not to report it. I had hoped that in the course of the day the majority of them would have been caught, so that this matter might have found a natural solution. During my report Himmler appeared and I think that it was towards the end of my situation report that he in my presence reported the incident, since he had as usual caused a general search for the escaped prisoners.
tier and myself, since he raised the incredible accusation against me immediately because of this incident. and that is why I an making a detailed statement. tement, "These prisoners are not to be returned to the Armed Forces but to remain with the Police". I immediately objected. I said that this procedure was impossible. The situation led to it that Hitler repeated and declared once more "I am ordering that you, Himmler, will retain then; you will not give then up." in accordance with the original order had to be taken out of camps and surrendered to the police. That I succeeded in doing, but that was all.
Q Please, will you tell me who was present during that row ? partly present, having heard some of these things, though perhaps not every words because to begin with he was in the adjoining room. At any rate, Jodl and I returned together to our quarters and we discussed the case and talked about the extreme awkward consequences which the whole matter would have. On my return to my quarters I immediately ordered General von Graevenitz to visit me and told him to report to me the following morning. sent. If I have been a little uncertain about that some time during an interrogation, then it was because I was told that witnesses had already confirmed that Goering was present. But right from the beginning I considered it was improbable and doubtful. It is therefore also incorrect that Goering raised any accusations against me at the time. There hadn't been a conference in Berlin either. These are mistakes which I think I can explain by saying that the report made by Graevenitz who came with Westhoff, that he had experienced a scene such as was most unusual in military life, because of the harshness of the words I used in that connection, because of that incident.
Do you want me to say anything more about the discussion with Graevenitz? reiterated Hitler's order, which he had given earlier, in such a sense that he, Graevenitz, and Westhof who was also present, would gather the Impression and be of the opinion that you yourself had issued the order for the shooting of the escaped fliers?
AAccording to the record of this interrogation of Westhof's , which I have seen, I can, I think, clarify it by saying the following: ted. I must say that even the order that the prisoners were to be retained by the police caused me extreme worry regarding their fate. I want to say that openly, because the possibility of their being shot during escape did excite in my conscience. I certainly talked in extreme excitement at that time and didn't weigh every word carefully. And I have certainly repeated Hitler's words, which were, "We must set an example". Since I was afraid of any further serious interferences with the prisoners of war system in any otehr form, apart from this incident of the non-returning of the prisoners to the Armed Forces after having read the record and after having sees Westhof at the same time that I had said "They will be shot, and most of them are probably dead already," I consider it probable that I have said some such words. I may have siad, "You will see what an unfortunate story this is; it is quite possible so many have already been shot." I knew nothing, however, about the fact that shootings had already taken place, and I must admit and confess that Hitler never said a word about anybody being shot, in my presence. He only said, "Himmler, you will hang on to them; don't give them up." The fact that shootings had taken place did not become known to me until several days later, and I gather from the filer and the Government reports from the British Government that not until the 31st -the escape having been on the 25 -- that not until the 31st did the actual shootings take place. that the order had already been issued in the camp that it was to be made known who had escaped and that a nominal roll had to be published of those who had been shot. That order didn't come until later, and I remember it. I remember it because of the following story:
the adjutants told no that a report had been received that shootings had taken place. I requested a discussion alone with Hitler, and told him that I had heard that people had been shot, through the police. All he told me was that he too had received that. In extreme disgust I told him what my opinion was, and at that time he told me that it was to be published in the camp to scare the others, and subsequently that announcement appeared in the camps. At any rate, some of the recollections which Westhof has sworn to are not quite correct in his recollection. Even his expressions as he puts them may have faults
Q Did Hitler tell you at any time that he had ordered the shootings?
A No, he has never told me that. I have never heard it from him. I heard it very much later, as far as I can remember, through Reich Marshal Goering, wince the whole incident was of course the subject of many discussions and conversations, it being an Air Force camp.
Q And now I should like to say finally: Am I right in saying that you are stating under oath here that you did neither give such an order for the killing of these Air Force officers yourself personnaly, nor did you receive and transmit such an order, nor did you learn yourself who gave the order?
A That is correct. I neither received that order nor did I know or hear of it; nor did I pass such an order on. That I can state and repeat under oath.
Q We are now turning to deportations: What the Prosecution consider the deportation of workers to be, is the transfer of citizens of occupied territories to Germany or other accupied territories for the purpose of using them for slave labor on defense work or for any other tasks connected with warfare. That is the accusation which I have just read to you. Now, the prosecution has connected your name to these accusations repeatedly, in the sense that you had taken care of supplying workers to Germany war economy -- you and the OKW. You know that actually the Defendant Sauckel was the Plenipotentiary in that sphere and I should like to ask you whether before Plenipotentiary Sauckel had been appointed, workers had been taken from the occupied territories and brought to Gemany.
particularly the Wesr, Belgium, Holland -- I don't know about Holland; but France -- workers were transferred from these territories to Germany. That is, at least how I heard it, according to what I heard, it was done by voluntary recruiting. I think I can remember that on one occasion General von Stuelpnagel the military commander of Paris, told me in Berlin during a meeting that more than two hundred thousand volunteers had reported, but just when that was, I cannot recollect now.
A. The first two documents, PS-137 and PS-138, were dictated in part by me at headquarters. They were sent to departments of the Army, and it says here, "To the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, to the Commander of the Wehrmacht in the Netherlands, and the Commander-in-Chief of the Army for Occupied France. These matters originated to answer questions put by various military departments who considered themselves responsible for the safekeeping or guarding of those things which were in occupied territories, and also officers who obviously were to collect and to register or otherwise be connected with theseobjects of art-libraries -- and wanted to confiscate them. called me over the phone. In other cases I believe through Rosenberg the Fuehrer gave me his directions that I was to instruct military departments to agree that they were concerned with directives which he had ordered and with which he agreed. You can see that those documents were given out by my adjutant I myself dictated them on the orders of the Fuehrer and transmitted them. Perhaps these inquiries occurred because nothing had been prescribed prior to that time. Just what happened or was to happen to these objects of art I did not know. I always represented the view that we were concerned with safeguarding, and confiscation was not to be thought of. That question didn't ever occur to me at the time. did not concern myself with those mutters at all. I considered these measures to be purely protective, and did no consider than unjust because of that reasons.
A. Then you mean the OKW had jurisdiction, no competence?
A. No.
Q. It was just a transmission of letters to officers and departments to make known 'the will of Hitler and to support Rosenberg in his task?
A. That is right.
Q. In this connection I would like to out a personal question to you. Did you at any time so far as tire objects of art of conquered countries or occupied countries are concerned either from state or private property -- did you ever take any of those objects of art or did any department give you any object of art?
A. No, I was never concerned or connected with these matters at all.
Q. Now, we will come to the so-called economic exploitation of occupied countries. In this connection, in your position as Chief of the OKW, you are accused of participating in the economic exploitation of the occupied eastern countries and the western occupied countries. This question has already been touched in the testimony and cross-examination of Reich Marshal Goering, therefore I will try to treat this matter relatively briefly. But I need a certain amount of clarification from you, that is, how far you and OKW were connected with these matters, for your name and OKW and you yourself are mentioned frequently in this connection. Through the Wirtschafts Ruestungs Amt (economic armament office), which was a branch of the OKW, General Thomas prepared a compilation which was produced by the prosecution. What can you tell me to this question, when I submit document 1157-PS and USSR-80 to you? If I submit these two documents to you -
A.PS-1157 deals with the Plan Barbarossa Oldenburg. I would like to say the following: The Wehr Wirtschafts Amt under the leadership of General Thomas, so far as the organization in the Reich which had its corresponding offices first of all for the campaign in the west and then for the campaign Barbarossa in the east is concerned, carried out certain organizational preparations to the effect so that the high command post, such as supreme command post, and advisers and experts for war economy and supply questions, that they receive this personnel. The persons who were with the quartermaster had the task in occupied and conquered countries, so far as food supplies, grains, and so forth were concerned, to take over all of these supplies which could be used for the army. They were to safeguard these supplies, and then in connection with the General who took care of supplies for the army and he who was in charge for the bringing up of supplies for the advancing troops, that all of this material was to be placed at their disposal. measures were taken so far as war economy is concerned These things were saved for later use in the east, an I believe Reich Marshal Goering has already explained these matters at length. A totally different method was used, that is, not only that of supplying of troops, but also the exploitation of these conquered territories; and organization was planned accordingly.
The Wirtschafts Amt Ost and Oldenburg -- that was the name given to it. also must be limited whereby organizational preparation of the technical experts which were required worked together with the Four-Year Plan and the food ministry and the Wirtschafts Organization Oldenburg. So far as the giving of orders and its activity, the OKW and its chief -- that is me -- we did not have any command power. The organization had been in existence, and it was now to be used by him who had the task to apply this instrument, to give instructions, and to work with it. When General Thomas wrote in his book, which is available here as a document -
Q. 2353-PS, page 386. Perhaps you can give us a summary after you have finished reading it?
A. Yes. This is an excerpt from the book by General Thomas in which he described his own activity and the activity of the organization which he directed in the OKW. Beginning with the origin of the organization up until the war years he says here, "The activity of the Wirtschafts Ruestungs Amt during the execution of the eastern campaign was to be considered only as a directive principle and in the counselling of the east."
Q. Please ready only paragrph four for your summary.