BY DR. SERVATIUS (attorney for the organization of the political leaders):
political intentions of the Fuehrer, that is, you in your capacity as leader of the Ausland organization? of the foreign political intentions of the Fuehrer. in the position of wanting an understanding with England? Gauleiters emphasize that he wished an understanding with England and that you were to function that way? of the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer did not discuss foreign political matters with me during the twelve years I was in office.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions from other members of Defense Counsel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY LIEUT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: Party in Germany was organized, is that not so? the Party structure in the Reich, which did not apply to foreign countries. For example, the Bureau for Criminal police -
Q Perhaps I can shorten my question: Did you have Hoheitstraegers abroad in the same way that you had them in Germany? is that correct?
Q And under many there were lower ranking Hoheitstraegers? foreign countries well organized and known to the leader in those countries?
A For the large part that would be correct, but it wasn't organized through and through, and it could not be that the leaders of the party would know all the Reichsdeutschen in the countries involved.
Q Did it never occur to you that in the event of your army's invading a country where you had a well organized organization, the organization would be of extreme military value? tion and there were no demands like that made. of Europe were in fact invaded by the German Army your local organizations did nothing to assist them in a military or semi-military capacity?
Q Very well. Now, let me ask you about something else for a moment: You had, had you not, an efficient system of reporting from your Landesgruppenleiters to your head office in Berlin? that you took an especial pride in the speed with which your reports came back?
mentioned that, but I believe I said that in regard to giving a complete political picture.
Q. In fact, your reports did come back with great speed, did they not?
A. I cannot say that. In general it depended on the possibility of bringing these reports to Berlin, and how it applied in particular cases I cannot tell you today. But speed or certain measures for acceleration, I did not have at my disposal.
Q. In fact, you told your interrogator -- and I can refer you to it if necessary -- that on occasions you got back similar information before Himmler or the Foreign Office had got it.
A. We were concerned, with the political reporting system from the Landesgruppenleiters which I transmitted from Berlin to the various parts of the country.
Q. Very well, we will leave the speed out. I have it from you that you had an efficient system of reporting, is that correct?
A. In order to answer that question I would have to know in what report; you mean I am supposed to have had this system of reporting.
Q. That was going to be my next question. I was going to ask you: What in fact did your Landesgruppenleiters report to you?
A. The Landesgruppenleiters reported to me, of themselves, if they had anything of importance which they wanted to report to me, the competent leader.
Q. Did they ever report anything which might have been of military or semi-military value?
A. That might have been true in a few cases, although at present I cannot recall any such special cases.
Q. They were never given any instructions, were they, to report that kind of information?
A. No; in general, no.
Q. How did you get your reports back/ Did you have wireless sets with your organizations in foreign countries?
A. No, we did not have any wireless stations. Reports came through courier in special cases or were brought in by special people to Germany.
Q. After the war statred did your organizations continue in neutral countries?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they never have wireless sets reporting back information?
A. I do not know anything about that, but I do not believe they had them. If they had them I would have had to know about it.
Q. Now, I want to just ask you about one or two documents. Would you look at PS-3258 -- My Lord, that is the Exhibit already in, GB-262; I have copies of the extract for the Tribunal and members of Defense Counsel.
A. Yes.
Q. Where you have before you a copy of some extracts from it. Would you look at the bottom of the first page, last paragraph commencing "In 1938"? Did you have a Landesgruppenleiter in the Netherlands of the name of Batting?
A. Yes.
Q. Just pay attention to me for one moment before you look at that document. Do you know that Butting shared a house at the Hague with the Military Intelligence Office? Do you know that?
A. That I do not know, no.
Q. Now, I want to quote you quite shortly two paragraphs of this document, which is a report published as an official United States publication called "National Socialism Basic Principles, Application by the Nazi Party Foreign Organization and the Use of Germans Abroad for Nazi Ends." I just want you to tell the Tribunal what you think first of this report, which is printed in that bood:
"In 1933 the German legation owned two houses in The Hague. Both were of course the subject of diplomatic immunity and therefore inviolable as concerned search and seizure by the Dutch Police. I shall call the house in which Dr. Butting had his office House No. 2. What went on in House No. 2? It had been remodelled and was divided like a two-family house -- vertically, not horizontally, but between the two halves there was a communicating door. One side of the house was Dr. Butting's. The other half housed the Nazi Military Intelligence agent for Holland."
You say that you do not know anything about that?
A. Butting was Landesgruppenleiter of the Ausland Organization, but this is entirely new to me, and I am hearing about it for the first time new.
Q. Very well. "S. B. (the military intelligence agent) may have had as many as a dozen subordinates working in Holland, all sub-agents of the Canaris bureau. Those were professional spies who knew their trade. But they could not possibly know Holland as intimately as was required by the strategy of the German High Command, as it was revealed following the invasion of May 1940. For this, not a dozen but perhaps several hundred sources of information were necessary. And it is at this point that Butting and the military intelligence come together. Through his German Citizens' Association, Butting had a pair of Nazi eyes, a pair of Nazi ears, in every town and hamlet of the Netherlands. They were the eyes and ears of his monor party officials. Whenever the military intelligence agent needed information concerning a corner of Holland which his people had not yet explored, or was anxious to check information relayed to him by one of his own people, he would go to Butting."
Holland in any way like that?
A. I was told later that he aided him, but in what proportion I do not know, for he had had no missions like that from me.
Q. I understand he had no instructions but he was doing it. Just turn now to the last paragraph of that page, too:
"'I know every stone in Holland', S. B. once boasted. By 'stone' he meant canal, lock, bridge viaduct, culvert, highway, by-road, airport, emergency landing field, and the name and location of Dutch Nazi sympathizers who would help the invading army when the time came. Had Dr. Butting's Party organization not existed under the innocent cover of his Citizens' Association, S. B.'s knowledge of Holland would have been as nothing compared with what it was. Thus the Citizens' Association served a double purpose; it was invaluable for espionage at the same time as it fulfilled its primary function as a fifth column agency." instructions to learn about every canal, lock, bridge, viaduct, railway, and so on?
A. No, I never had any idea of this.
Q. Very well. I want you to be quite clear. I am putting to you that your organization, in the first place, was an espionage system of reporting information of importance back to the Reich, and, in the second place, it was an organization aimed to help and which did help your invading German armies when they overran the frontiers of thei neighboring states. Do you understand those two points?
A. Yes.
Q. Did your organization publish an annual book, your Year Book of the Foreign Organization?
A. Yes
Q. And did that book contain information as to the activities of your organization during the year?
A. Partially, yes.
Q. And I suppose that the Tribunal would be safe in assuming that what was published in that book was accurate information?
A. Yes, one may assume that.
Q. Will you look at the Year Book for 1942. I have copies of the extracts. Would you turn to Page 37 of that book. If you look back one or two pares in the book you will find that that is an article entitled "The Work of the Norway Branch of the Ausland Organization in Norway". Is that written by your Landesgruppenleiter in Norway?
pencil along the side.
Q Will you find the paragraph which starts, "Therefore, soon after the outbreak of the war in September 1939 --" Have you got that ?
"Therefore, soon after the outbreak of war in September 1939, the enlargement and extension --"
Q "-- the enlargement and extension of the German legation in Oslo, of the consulates in Bergen, Drontheim, Stavanger, Kristiansand, Haugesund, Narvik and Kirkenes proved to be of primary importance. This enlargement of the Reich agencies resulted in the local organization of the N.S.D.A.P. in Norway having to increase its field of activity too, in the same proportion in order to support the work of the Reich agencies, particularly with Party members and other Germans who had a thorough knowledge of the country and the language." organization in Norway with people having thorough knowledge of the country and the language? Answer me that before you read on. You need not worry about the rest; we are going to deal with it . Why was it necessary in 1939 to enlarge your organization? in all, and it was definitely known that after the outbreak of the war, the authorities, not only of Germany but those of other states, had expanded and had the names of local assistants, and that did not hold true for Germany alone but for all other nations participating in the war.
Q Yes. I still do not understand why you perfectly harmless organization should have found it necessary to increase its membership with people who had a throrough knowledge of the language and the country.
Why should the Ausland organization have found it necessary? tell us about targets of war in Norway, these activities were carried on by other states also. targets in Norway. Is that your answer? were to be used for German propaganda, for information about the Norwegian people, and I would like to emplasie that was not done only by Germany but by all states which were involved in the war.
Q Very well, let us go on and see what happens next:
"The choice and appointment of these supplementary collaborators was carried out by the local leader of the organization in close collaboration with the representatives of the Reich, Therefore, from the first moment of the outbreak of war a great number of Party members were taken away from their jobs and employed in the service of the nation and the Fatherland. Without any hesitation and without considering their personal interests, their families, their careers or their property, they joined the ranks and devoted themselves body and soul to the new and often dangerous tasks." that an often dangerous task?
leiter is saying members of his organization were undertaking from the very moment war broke out, in September 1939? this at all and I cannot think of any of these dangerous tasks. I cannot conceive of them. I didn't knew this article prior to now and I have the impression that the Landesgruppenleiter had the desire, and it seems plausible, to make his organization more important than it was.
Q But you say you didn't know about this. This appeared in the official year book of your organization. Did you never read what appeared in that back? in this. What about the people who were responsible for publishing that back? Did they never draw your attention to an article of that kind?
Q Just look at the next little paragraph:
"And the successful results of their work, which was done with all secrecy, were revealed when, on the 9th April 1940, German troops landed in Norway and forestalled the planned flank attack of the Allies."
What work was revealed on the 9th of April? What work which had been done with all secrecy was revealed on 9th April, work carried out by members of your organization?
Q I see. Will you look down to the last paragraph if that page? It is the second sentence, at the end of the fifth line. I beg your pardon. You have the book in front of you; I have forgotten. Will you look at page 40 of the bock? In the center of a paragraph the last word of one of the lines starts with "According. According to the task-plan" -- Have you got it? It is page 40.
A (The witness shook his head)
Q To save time, let me read it:
"According to the task-plan which had been prepared since the out break of the war, the leadership of the local organization gave orders on the 7th of April for phase one of the state of employment..."
It doesn't sound, does it,that plans are being made for different phases of an operation? It doesn't sound, does it, as if the work of your organization had been simply finding out about Norwegian people?
A It might be, because this is entirely new to me. That might have been an agreement in the country itself with military and other people. I had never had any previous knowledge up until now.
Q So I understand you to say. But you were the head of this organization, were you not? evidence, presumably saying you are in a position to give them truthful and accurate evidence, is that so?
Q Do you understand that?
Q Well, then, do I understand you to say now that you don't know what was happening in your organization and therefore you are not in a position to give evidence as to whether or not it was a Fifth Column business? leader, who has his office at Berlin, cannot know exactly what is going on, and especially what is going on against his instructions. I didn't have the same disciplinary powers over my party members abroad as I did over the Gauleiters internally, and I need net elaborate on that, because it seems self-evident and also clear, and this I know, that some Germans abroad were called on because of their patriotism, without the knowledge of the Ausland Organization and against its direct instructions. They let themselves be used for these purposes.
Q In the interest of time we won't pursue that particular sphere of activity in Norway, just in case it may have been an exception which you didn't know about.
Let me turn to something else. Will you look at page 65 of that book?
(The witness manipulated a back.)
Is that an article by your Landesgruppenleiter in Greece? Ausland organization in Greece when German troops invaded that country?
Q Will you look at page 65?
"Sunday the 27th of April. Swastika on the Acropolis."
That is the heading. I beg your pardon. I don't know whether it comes directly under that heading. This it the Landesgruppenleiter talking:
"I set out immediately and quickly visited the other quarters where the German colony had been interned, the Philadelphia and the Institute. I enjoined upon the inmates of the house in Academy Street that they were to renounce returning home today as well, and that they were to hold themselves in readiness. After all, we did want to help the German troops immediately with our local and linguistic knowledge. Now the moment has come. We must start in immediately."
A Yes, I know everything about this. It was probably clear that the moment that German troops would occupy a foreign city and free the Germans who had been interned, they would put themselves at the disposal of German pools and serve then in any capacity to interpret or show the way or similar things, and that seems to be the most logical thing in the world for them to do. appears to have given them is that it managed to organize them and get them ready to do it, isn't that so? That is what your Landesgruppenleiter seems to be doing?
A I didn't quite follow the question. Will you please repeat it? organizing the members of your organization, organizing then so that they can give their assistance most beneficially to the invading armies?
A No, that is the wrong way to express it. The Landesgruppenleiter in Greece, who had his post since 1934, couldn't know at all whether an invasion of Greece was to come or was not to come. That had nothing to do with his activity at all. At the moment where German troops were in the country it was clear that they would greet their countryman and would help them in every way, and that was a patriotic duty to be taken for granted.
Just turn to page 66, the next page. Will you find the paragraph which commences "Meanwhile I organized the employment of all Party members to do auxiliary service for the armed forces."
Do you have that?
A I understand it, although I don't find the place.
A Where shall I find that place?
Q On page 66. It is a new paragraph.
Q "Meanwhile I organized the employment of all Party members to do auxiliary service for the armed forces." doesn't it?
Q "Soon our boys and girls could be seen riding proud and radiant in their Hitler Youth uniforms beside the German soldiers on motor bicycles and dustcarts." Landesgruppenleiter had put in in Greece to assist your armies in semimilitary capacities, or was that another case like Norway which you didn't know about? military way, but he had to have organization to aid the troops who were coming in, but he did that in a civilian matter only. called Stohrer, in Madrid?
Q Did Stohrer have something to do with the German Embassy in Madrid?
Q This is dated 23 October 1939. Just let us see what it says.
"The Landesgruppenleiter can obtain a very suitable house for accommodating the Landesgrippe, including the German Labor Front, the Hitler Youth, and the German House Madrid, also room available in case of embassy having to spread out, and especially very suitable shut-off room for possible erection of second secret radio sender, which can no longer be housed at the school because of reopening.
"Landesgruppenleiter requests me to rent the house through embassy, in which way very considerable tax expense will be avoided. Have no hesitation, in view of anticipated partial use by embassy as mentioned above. If you are not agreeable I request wire by return.
"Please submit also to Gauleiter Bohle," twenty minutes ago you had no knowledge of wireless sets being used by your organization?
A Yes, the use of the apparatus seems . . . . . If you mean that it was the apparatus used by the Embassy, I have no knowledge of that.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the Defendant Hess): The copy of the telegram as I have it before me, it does not indicate to whom this wire was addressed. The last sentence of the telegram leads one to assume that it was not addressed to Bohle, the witness. According to my opinion, I should think the witness should have to be asked whether he knew about this wire and to whom it was addressed.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Perhaps you will tell Dr. Seidl to whom,of the German Embassies, he was likely to send a telegram on such matters as this.
THE WITNESS: To the foreign office at Berlin. Berlin, were you not? various persons in the Departments in the Foreign Office in Berlin. Is that so?
Q And are you saying now, that you have . . . It was not all of those departments who were asked to submit this matter to you, that they all failed to do so?
Q And are you saying now, that you have . . . It was not all of those departments who were asked to submit this matter to you, that they all failed to do so?
A No. I am sure that they would have done this.
Q Do you remember yourself seeing this telegram before? these secret centers in Spain were something which I never knew about. And in the distribution slip, it shows "State Secretary", but that does not mean me. It means the State Secretary of the Foreign Office. That is the political name.
Q I can save you all that. I am not suggesting that that "State Secretary" means you, otherwise it would not be asked to be submitted to you. What I want to know is what you or your embassy workers, or both of you working together, wanted with two secret wireless sets in Spain in October, 1939? reporting back information of military importance?
A Just how do you mean, "reporting back?" you telling the Tribunal that your organization was not being used for espionage purposes in Spain?
A Yes, I am asserting that. There were certain members of the organization who worked without my knowledge. I protested against this often enough, but they were used for this purpose. I did not wish that Germans abroad, as in all other countries who had similar cases,who were members of the organization became involved or concerned in this.
Q I don't want to stop you at all. I don't want to stop you. Go on if you have anything to say. But, in the interest of time, try and make it as short as possible. organizations of Germans abroad who did these things in the interest of what they considered patriotism and what they considered their patriotic duty. And that, I believe, has certain decisive points.
Q I won't argue about that. You see that your organization took official interests to record accounts of what they were doing in their official books. I just want to show you one thing further -- a document. I have one further document to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may as well go on.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: It is a document which I have just had found. I haven't had them copied. The Tribunal will forgive me if I read extracts from them?
Is that .... It is an original document you hold in your hand and it appears to be, doesn't it, a carbon copy of a letter from . . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Has Dr. Seidl got one?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes, he has one in German.
Is that a letter from your Landesgruppenleiter Konradi? actually signed "Konradi." After the usual "Heil Hitler" . . . . .
Q Will you get that copy back? Perhaps these documents . . . .
(Document taken from the witness to Lt. Col. Griffith-Jones).
It is in fact signed "Konradi." Show it to him.
(Document returned to the witness).
A It is not signed by Konradi. It is typed in.
Q I am very much obliged. It is my fault. I told you that is a carbon copy. A copy of a letter which was signed by Konradi. That appears to be so, doesn't it?
A That, I do not know, for I don't know of a letter signed by Konradi. document which has been captured and it is a place of paper, and that it bears a typewritten signature of Konradi, who was your Landesgruppenleiter in Rumania, is that correct? You remember whom you had . . . .
Q And is this a letter of instructions to the Zellenleiter in Constanca?
Q It is dated the 25th of October 1939. Will you read the first paragraph?
"Between the 9 and 12 of October, a conference took place with the Senior Party's functionaries, or their deputies, of the South Eastern and Southern European groups at the Office of the Direction of the Ausland organization." Does that mean Berlin?
A Yes. Berlin.
Q That means your office, doesn't it?
Q In the office over which you had complete contrd?
Q. Agreed. I imagine, before we go on that no orders would be issued from your head office at a conference of that kind which were contrary to your direction, would there?
A. Not in important things, no.
Q. "I subsequently received direct instructions from the competent Office of the Direction of the Ausland organization." confirmed in writing "During the war, every National Socialist abroad must directly serve the Fatherland, either through propaganda for the German cause or by counter-acting enemy measures."
I am now reading from the next paragraph, and the next paragraph plus one, then go on to the next paragraph.
" As everywhere else it is extremely important to know where the enemy is and what he is doing...."
"It has been ascertained that the intelligence service has attempted, sometimes most successfully, to obtain admittance into the activities of the Party Group or its associates for seemingly trustworthy persons. It is therefore necessary that you thoroughly investigate not only all those persons who are not very well known to you, but more than anything else you must put any new persons appearing in your section under a magnifying glass. If possible, let him be taken in hand by a comrade who has strong Nazi convictions and is not generaly known to the man in the street."
"You are to report everything that comes to your notice, even though it may at first sight appear very insignificant. Rumors suddenly appearing also come in this category, however false they may be."
Do you remember your members in Rumania being told to report everything? That is, everything they see ?
Q "An important section of both of you and your organization must be industrial concerns and business enterprises, not only because you can transplant your propaganda very well in your work, particularly in such concerns, but because you can easily pick up informayion concerning storage facility . It is more important that the men who have been organized especially are active in industrial circles that can collect information and carry out acts of sabotage. Members with close connections in shippint and forwarding companies are particularly suitable for this work. It goes without saying that you must be meticulous and cautious when selecting your assistants."
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have some more to read from this document? If so, we will adjourn now until 2:00 o'clock.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1400 hours.)