I also an for human rights, but if a Frenchman says 'You fellows will all be hanged and the chief of the factory will be beheaded first' and if then the chief says 'I am going to hit him', then he is in a mess. He is not protected but the poor fellow who said that to him is protected." Did you report that to the meeting?
Q What did you suggest? workers threatened their German foreman and in the factory, and if that man fought against him then something was done against him, and I didn't think that was correct.
Q Now, you provided your own remedy. Didn't you in the next line say: "I have told my engineers' I am going to punish you if you don't hit such a man. The more you do in this respect, the more I shall praise you. I shall see to it that nothing happens to you.' This is not yet sufficiently known. I cannot talk with all factory leaders. I should like to see the man who stays my arm because I can settle accounts with anybody who stays my arm." Did you find that?
A I have seen it just now, yes. I cannot remember the words in detail but my point is that it was an impossibility that a prisoner or foreign worker could say to his German foreman "We will out your threat." threatened to out his threat, that German officers would stand up for him as against the employer? You don't mean that, do you?
A (No answer).
Q Well, we will go on: "If the little factory leader" -- I am still quoting from you -- "does that, he is put into a concentration camp..." Do you want to find that?
Q "...and runs the risk of losing prisoners of war." Now, I am still quoting you and I want you to find the entry, "In one case, two Russian officers took off with an airplane but crashed. I ordered that these two men be hanged at once. They were hanged or shot yesterday. I left that to the SS. I expressed the wish to have them hanged in the factory for the others to see."
Did you find that? nor can I give the order. I said I consider it quite impossible that I said that. I had nothing to do with this question. I do not know of any case where two Russian officers fled with the plane. entry?
A No, I have nothing to say. I do not know anything about it and I don't believe it has ever been said.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is all that I have at the present time. BY MR. ROBERTS: My first point is this: You said on Friday that beginning in 1935; an air-force was built up in Germany for defensive purposes. Do you remember that? December 1939? your chief, the Defendant Goering. I am quoting from the shorthand notes of the 8th of January, in the afternoon, on page 2306. In May of 1935, Goering said: "I intend to create a luftwaffe which, if the hour should strike, shall burst upon the foe like a course of revenge. The enemy must have the feeling of being lost already before even having fought." Does that sound like a defensive airforce? from the deeds.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is any more of this laughter, the court will have to be cleared.
BY MR. ROBERTS: aircraft manufacturers, said that "War with Czechoslovakia was imminent; that the German airforce is already superior to the English airforce. If Germany wins the war, she will be the greatest power in the world, dominating the world market, and Germany will be a rich nation. To this goal risks must be taken." Does that sound like a defensive German airforce? Does it? say something in answer to that.
in answering any question, which is very short. Now may I read you "Hitler has instructed me to organize a gigantic armament program, which would make insignificant all creative achievements.
I have as large."
Does that sound like a speech for defensive purposes?
I now want to come to my second point. You were present at the 1939?
A What was the date please, if I may ask?
Q I would like you to see the document, which is L-79. You
A On the 27 May, wasn't it?
Q Yes, that is right. I just want to remind you to ask who else was present.
There were the Fuehrer, Goering, Raeder, Warlimont--was Warlimont deputy of Jodl?
Q Very well--and others; I don't mention the names. Now, Mr. Witness, those names were leaders of the German armed forces?
was not present. I cannot remember.
Q He is down there as being present. You think he was not there?
A Yes. I cannot remember any more. I have my recollection others were mostly leaders of the Germany army force, is that right?
A Yes. It was the Commander in Chief of the Army and the of honor?
his word?
and Luxembourg?
A I assume so. I did not know the agreement, but I assume so.
countries, including the three I have mentioned? Did you not know that as a matter of history?
A I have not seen the film. I do not know the film.
Q Yes. It is a German newsreel. Do you remember that at Tribunal:
"The Dutch and the Belgian air bases must be occupied by the armed forces.
Hitler's notions of neutrality must be ignored.
decisive blow right at the start. Considerations of right and wrong, or treaties do not enter into the matter."
Do you remember those words being said?
A I cannot remember exactly what the words were. I know that breach of Germany's pledge of her word?
speak at all. Hitler sat behind his desk, and in front he made the speech, and after the speech he walked away.
The discussion did not honor, Mr. Witness?
Q Can you give the Tribunal your opinion of it?
upon ourselves. That I cannot remember.
Q Will you now say that those minutes are wrong?
A No, I cannot say that. I can only say I have no recollection of any detail as to the words.
Whether the minutes are correct I do not know.
As much as I know they have been edited later by one of Luxembourg, and brought miser and death to millions.
You know that now, don't you?
the political question. We were not asked about them.
DR. RUDOLPH DIX: I speak not for the Defendant Schacht, but for the entire Defense.
I ask the Tribunal and say that the witness may
THE PRESIDENT: He is being asked about facts.
DR. DIX: Sir?
THE PRESIDENT: I said he was being asked about facts. BY MR. ROBERTS: months later Germany violated the neutrality of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. whatever the Government of the country has taken up was not a job of the soldiers to judge that. break his country's word. he has not anything to say whatever. I agree and say that on foreign territory where the soldier could not overlook, and about which a soldier does not know anything, he cannot be held responsible for such a question.
Q You can only speak of your own knowledge. Are you saying that you do not know that your country was pledged to observe the neutrality of these three small countries?
how the other side had reacted to that promise at the time known to me. It could be quite possible that the other side to use this guarantee, did not want this guarantee at all for a protection. The soldier can not see that clearly. Only the political leadership could know about that. command, who are now in the Dock, when they get in the witness box. But I put it to you that it must have been common knowledge in Germany that Hitler was giving guarantees and assurances to all these smaller countries?
A Hitler has proposed and offered to make many things. He offered for all countries limitation of armaments. He offered not to use any bombing planes, but his proposals in these cases, they were not accepted, therefore, any political leadership had to know what they should demand from their soldiers, and get response from their soldiers. The soldiers of the line have only to judge and to obey.
Q Answer my question. That was not an answer to my question. I take the facts now Mr. Witness from the documents, from your own German documents. I want just your knowledge and your idea of honor. Did you not think it grossly dishonorable to give the pledge on 28 April, and to make a secret resolution to break it on the 23 of May? conditions have not changed in any way, and that is my judgment. vice.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so. BY MRE. ROBERTS:
Very well, I will not acquire an answer to that. Very well. THE WITNESS; I do not even understand his question
Q You know, of course, that the neutrality anyway was violated? twice. in his diary, "The Fuehrer is still looking for excuse to give to the world for invasion of Norway." Do you know that?
A I do not know of that diary and that entry.
Q You took part actually in the invasion of Norway, did you not? force there for a short time.
Q You had actually a command in Norway?
DR. HERMANN JAHREISS: Dr. Jahrreiss, for the defendant Jodl. I consider it necessary to make a clarification, which may be made from the misinterpretation or mistranslation. I have just heard about the entry by Jodl in his diary, and a re-translation from the German as coming from the Fuehrer, "Is still looking for an excuse," and in the German text it shows "A reason for justification." I also believe that justification is in the English translation, and that it should not be translated by outrage pretext or excuse. That is an entirely different thing.
MR. ROBERTS: Whatever it is, why that reads as the translation of his witness. Would you agree that according to the entry in the diary, the Fuehrer was still looking for it, whether it was a reason or an excuse. Nov I only want to ask you one more question on this side of the case.
Q You know that Belgrade was bombed in I think April 1941? lation at all, you heard that?
Q Have not you discussed it with Goering?
AAbout the attack on Belgrade? No, I can not remember. bombing to a large capital without even one hour warning to the civilian population?
Q That is murder, isn't it?
A (No answer)
Q You would rather not answer that question? which lead to the attack. I do not know whether the war was declared. I do not know whether the warning took place.
Neither do I know whether Belgrade was a fortress.
Neither do I know what part was attacked in Belgrade. I know of so many bombing attacks of which it could be said the same thing, that could be said.
Q The question, Mr. Witness, that unless we had the use of the document in front of us, it was Hitler's order that Belgrade was to be suddenly destroyed by waves of bombers, without any ultimatum, or any diplomatic movement, or negotiations at all; would I put that question if I had not known of the document. Let me turn to something else. this document. Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan. Do you know about what I am talking? British, Dominian, and other escaped from that Stalag Luft 3 camp? where the entire case was displayed on the wall,
Q I may say, we cannot but help know it in a moment. Did you know that officers, eight or sixty, were shot? from Danzig to Saarbruecken; you heard of that?
A I have heard that about fifty were killed. I do not know where. but that urns said to contain their ashes were brought back to the camp, you heard of that?
A That could be seen from the speech of Mr. Eden, who was in the Lower House, and I found that out in the camp whore I was, Government as having been shot while offering resistance, or trying to escape, yet, not one was wounded, and all sixty were shot dead. officers while they were trying to resist, or trying to escape, had been shot. We did not believe it in that form, and about this point there was much dis cussion among ourselves without knowing any of their facts.
We were
Q You were afraid that murder had been committed. It does appear likely, doesn't it?
murder would have to come from a high level, isn't it?
A Surely, certainly. Further, more details I have heard from war organization.
Was the prisoner of war organization a department of the OKW?
Q Which was called KGW, Kriegsgefangenen Wesen?
A I cannot say any more about it, because I don't know how it was.
I only knew that there was a chief of the Kriegsgefangenen Wesen General Major von Graevenitz?
Q This was an air force camp? Stalag Luft 3 was an air force camp?
A Yes. It had such a name that I was convinced that all prisoners were under the OKW.
That was my attitude, my opinion. I the inspectorate, rather, called Inspectorate No. 17?
question was installed according to the name. What they had to do and what tasks they had, I cannot say.
Whether it was just for examination
Q Was the head of that General Major Grosch?
A Grosch?
A I cannot say. It is possible. I know the name, but I do
Q And the second in command, Oberst Waelde?
Q You were No. 2 in the air force at the Air Ministry in March 1944, were you not?
A There were more number 2's at that time. I was in the same the 25th of March, about this escape?
Q Did not Goering speak to you about that conference?
A I have no recollection; I cannot remember that.
between Hitler, Himmler, himself and Keitel on that Saturday morning?
A No. I do not know anything about that. I could not prisoners of war was given?
A No, I know absolutely nothing about that. According to the
Q General Westhoff we are going to see here as a witness. He
A I beg you to excuse me. I could not hear just now.
he is going to give evidence. Perhaps that would be fairer from the point of view of the Defense.
But are you suggesting that these knowledge of Goering?
Q High confusion in March 1944?
Q But did you never discuss this matter with Goering at all?
A No. I cannot remember that I ever spoke to Goering about
Q Don't you think this is a matter which reflects shame on the armed forces of Germany?
Q Yet Goering never spoke to you about it at all? Did you ever speak to Keitel?
Q Did you over speak to Keitel about it?
A No, never. I saw Keitel even more seldom than Goering.
Q Wasn't there a General Foster or Foerster at the Air Ministry?
Q General Foerster?
Q Was he Director of Operations?
A No. He was, according to the German name, chief of the was in charge of the civil aviation, and regarding civil aviation he worked together with me, but during the war-
Q I was going to ask you, did he ever mention this shooting to you? cannot remember. It is not impossible that in the course of a conversation he may have told me that officers had been killed. If, and in what sense, he may have told me, I do not remember. I have not received an official report through him. It would not have been correct.
Q If Foerster told you, did you ever report it to Goering?
A I cannot remember the conversation with Foerster. Therefore, I do not believe that I have talked to him about it. He did not give me a report which I could have given to Goering--passed or to Goering--but this report would have gone directly from him or through other channels much quicker to Goering.
Q Did you take any steps to prevent this shooting being carried out? picture, but even if I had had a clear picture of it then from the words of Westhoff it is clear to me that it would have been much too late.
Q Why too late? out, and he was told already that the order had been execution But I may point out that General Westhoff testified to that and will testify to that. say?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Now I am going to deal with three short points further. With regard to the use of labor for the armament industry, Mr. Justice Jackson has asked you questions on that. Was labor from concentration camps used?
Q Would you just look at 1584-PS: that is shorthand note 1357, 12th of December, in the afternoon.
(A document is handed to the witness).
1944? There are various code numbers; then, to Reichsfuehrer SS; that was Himmler, Reichsminister Himmler. Who actually sent that teletype? It is signed by Goering, but he wouldn't be dealing with questions of labor, would he; or would he? of labor for air armament? demands for labor to the respective officers, but this telegram did not come from my office.
Q If it didn't come from your office, whose office did it come from?
A There are a few things here. First -
Q From whose office did it come?
A I don't know.
Q Second sentence: At the same time I ask you to put at my disposal as great a number of concentration camp convicts as possible for air armament, as this kind of manpower proved to be very useful according to previous experiments. You had frequently used concentration camp labor, had you?
A During the last time, yes. This is of the 15th. May I ask about the month of the telegram?
Q Yes, I told you witness, 14 of February, 1944. It is on the top.
A Yes, I couldn't read it.
Q No, I quite understand. And did Himmler respond by providing you with ninety thousand further concentration camp prisoners? I refer to 1584 PS Number 3, dated 9 March, 1944. It is to the "Most honored Reichsmarshal" from Himmler. It says:
"At the present time 36,000 prisoners are employed for the purpose of the Air Force. Increase to a total number of ninety thousand prisoners is contemplated."
Then he refers in the last paragraph:-- "The movement of manufacturing plants of the aviation industry to subterranean locations requires a further employment of about one hundred thousand prisoners."
(The witness was handed a document) concentration camps.
A No, I don't know about that.
Q You have not seen the films when the camps were captured? between the plump and well-fed guards and civilians and the skeletons of the internees? Germany?
Q You, in your position, could not know what was going on? Mr. Justice Jackson touched but he did not read the letter. That is the question of the experiments for the purpose of Air Force research. I am anxious to refer to as few documents as possible but I can give the reference.
Do you know that on the 15 of May, 1941, and the reference is shorthand note 1848, 1602-PS, that Dr. Rascher wrote to Himmler?
A I did not knew about that. I think I have told that recently during the interrogations.
Q He had very dangerous experiments for which no human would volunteer; monkeys were not suitable and so he asked for human subjects and Himmler at once provided, said he would be glad to provide human subjects for the experiment. Now that was in 1941. Did you know that was taking place?
A No. I did not know anything about that.
THE PRESIDENT: But, Mr. Roberts, this is not a letter to this witness, is it?
MR. ROBERTS: My Lord, I am leading up. The next letter is a letter signed by this witness. That was preliminary. Perhaps I had better come to the letter which he signed now. I am much obliged. BY MR. ROBERTS: the officer in charge of the documents would be so good, I want to put to you 687 PS (the witness was handed a document)
THE PRESIDENT: He has already been cross examined upon this letter, has he not?
MR. ROBERTS: I didn't Hunk the letter was read or was dealt with sufficiently. I believe you Lordship thinks it was.
THE PRESIDENT: The letter was put to him. I do not know whether it was actually read.
MR. ROBERTS: I shall be guided by the Court entirely. I know the matter was touched upon. I felt perhaps the letter should be read but I may be quite wrong.
THE PRESIDENT: I am told it was not read but the two letters were put to him.
MR. ROBERTS: I agree.
If your Lordship would be good enough to bear with me for a very few minutes I can perhaps deal with the matters I think should be dealt with.
BY MR. ROBERTS: "Wolffy", isn't it, that is Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, and that is signed by you isn't it?
A Yes, I have signed it. That is the letter which, as I said this morning, was presented to me by the Medical Inspection and form which it can be seen that we wanted to withdraw form that whole affair but it just had a polite form.
Q The point of the letter is, if I may summarize it, that you saY:
"In reference to your telegram of the 12 of May, our Sanitary Inspector"
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Roberts, if I remember right, when these letters were put to the witness he said he had not read them; that he signed then without reading them.
MR. ROBERTS: Well, my Lord, perhaps I had better leave the matter if your Lordship thinks I am going over ground which has been trodden too often. BY MR. ROBERTS: letters to Wolff, who was liaison officer, was he not, between -- who was Wolff?
A No, Wolff was no liaison officer. He was the adjutant of Himmler and according to this he had sent a telegram to us, apparently directly to the Sanitation Inspector and now this man answers through me, I could not say for what reason, but because it did not seem practical that he should answer directly.
I have said in the interrogations that I have signed these letters; that these letters, however, did not come from my office, were not dictated in my office but that they were written on my stationery.
That was generally done as an answer of the Sanitaetsinspektion. I had nothing to do with our experiments with the Luftwaffe, with altitude, pressure chambers or undercooling or sanitation inspection, or anything as to experiments of the SS. carried out with human bodies, human souls, provided by Dachau? the Sanitaetsinspektor presented to me. We made these experiments with our own officers in the Luftwaffe, who volunteered for it and we considered it as our affair that we were doing the experiments only with our own people on a voluntary basis. Therefore, we did not want the SS to make any experiments because the results which came from them did not interest us. The experimentshad already been made with our own men a long time ago. We did not need that at all. The SS was trying to meddle in a subject which they had nothing to do with and we did not understand why the SS wanted to do it. hand note 1852 -- in November, 1942 (that is document 1617-PS) in which he says:
"Dear Milch: Experiments have been carried out, both high pressure and cold water experiments --" and that he, Himmler, provided asocial persons and criminals from concentration camps? Do you remember that letter? letter. I do not know why Himmler wrote to me at all. These letters went from my office, without my seeing them, to the respective office, that is Sanitaetsinspektion. From there the answer came via my office but I was not in a position to say anything about it because I did not know what it was all about nor could I judge from the medical point of view what they were doing.