A Yes, that is correct.
sending them there, did you not?
A No, I had nothing to do with that group. At that time I had nothing to do with technical research.
Q Under whose command were they? had greater capacity for building airplane engines than all six of the German factories, did you not? available, even to the Fuehrer?
A Goering did not believe that information at that time. I know that from the words of Colonel General Udet. Goering called them defeatists and forbade them to repeat that information to any person, and threatened them with concentration camps if they repeated that information? Did you say that or didn't you. Goering on that subject. armament figures, the Reichsmarshal told me once, "Now, you also are going to be a defeatist and believe these large figures." I told him then that I did indeed believe these figures, but at that time that had nothing to do with the Russian affair. Reichstag or in any way made public to the German people?
A The Russian figures? That I could not say. I had nothing to do with that question. The American figures were presented to Hitler, I am sure, but Hitler did not believe them. ment of the war with Russia would end with the annihilation of Germany. I remind you of that, and that is correct, is it not?
A Not with the destruction, the annihilation, but with defeat.
entrance into the Russian war, is that right? Germany?
A No, he did not agree. With respect to his relation to Hitler, he had to be very cautious in his statements. I told him about the reasons, the difficulties for Germany, and he nodded, and I had the impression from his words that he had tried the same objections with Hitler, that he had presented the same arguments to Hitler without success. Germany, but he didn't want it said to Hitler, is that right?
A No, I cannot say that that is so. That was my conclusion, that it would end in defeat for Germany. He just agreed that this war had to be avoided at any rate, and that it would be a misfortune for Germany. In that connection, the word "defeat" was not mentioned by him.
Q Was it mentioned by you? front war with an adversary as strong as Russia.
Q And didhe disagree with you about that? Did he take issue with you about that?
A No, we did not argue about it. He only declared himself opposed to undertaking any further step because he considered it impossible, and it would only *---* to the impression with Hitler that the Air Force were defeatists.
Q And you didn't attempt any further to convey the information on which you thought Germany would be defeated if she entered war with Russia to Hitler or to any other officer of the High Command?
A That was impossible for me. I could not do anything against the order of my superior.
Q The Reichsmarshal? his talk with you, to Hitler, that it was your opinion that the war would end in disaster?
Hitler, but that in so doing he had no chance to succeed because that was impossible with Hitler. apparently had confidence in you, and I am asking you if Hermann Goering ever reported to Hitler that you, out of your information, felt that it was a disaster to go into that war. the foreign Government to the German Air Force, ordered by the Reichsmarshal. With regard to the importance of these trips, and the political words which have been mentioned, although I was told that I had nothing to do with that as a soldier, I thought that I had to transmit to Hitler my impressions
Q Did Goering direct you to do that?
A To go to Hitler? Yes. I believe that Goering had told Hitler and Hitler ordered me to come. I did not say myself, "I am going to Hitler now." I received an order from him. report?
Q Then he did know?
A He himself had no knowledge. He had no time to receive me.
Q Goering had no time to receive you? like to have anything to do with these things.
Q So he left that to Hitler who wasn't busy, I take it. Is that true? industrious, is that correct?
Q I withdraw it. I t wasn't a kindly question to begin with. informed officer, considered a disaster, did you resign?
A Resign what? out?
order that that could not be done.
Q And who gave that order?
resign.
Q Did you try it at any time? for the reason that I did not have the right to ask for it, but I would be told from above when I had to go.
A (Interposing): During the war I never asked, because during the war, a s a soldier, I could not ask for it. your position, in which he not only forbad you to leave, but also told you there would be no use in feigning ill-health?
A Yes. That is to say, there was no possibility of excusing oneself in this way when one was not really sick. The use had been that if one retired, one gave as a reason ill health; that was no longer possible.
Q What did you suggest? What talk did you have about suicide? Did Goering tell you that the only way you could get out was to commit suicide?
Q Did Goering tell you that?
Q And he didn't disagree with you, I take it. information of every soldier about international law and regulations? Do you have them with you this morning?
A I have them with me; that is, in my pay-book, like every soldier's pay-book.
get that out and give us exactly the text of those instructions or regulations which you say reflect international law as you understood it.
"The Ten Commandments for the Warfare of the German Soldier.
"1. The German soldier fights gallantly for the victory of his nation or of his people. Atrocities and needless destruction are below his dignity.
"2. The fighter has to be in uniform or have a visible designation. To fight in civilian clothes without such a designation is forbidden.
"3. No enemy can be killed who gives up, not even a partisan or a spy. These will be brought to punishment by the courts.
"4. Prisoners of war cannot be maltreated or insulted. Weapons, plans and notes should be taken from them. Of their property, nothing can be taken "5. Dum-dum shells are prohibited.
Shells may not be changed into such.
"6. The Red Cross is inviolable. Injured enemies are to be treated humanely. Medics and chaplains are permitted to perform their functions and are not to be disturbed.
"7. Civilian populations should not be injured. The soldier is not allowed to loot or to destroy. Historic monuments and buildings which are consecrated to religious services, art or charity are to be guarded. Service by the civilian population can only be accepted if they are paid for and ordered by the superior officer.
"8. Neutral territory may not be invaded or flown over or included in any way in the acts of warfare.
"9. If a German soldier becomes a prisoner, he has to give his name and rank. Under no circumstances may he speak about his unit, about military, political or economic conditions on the German side. Neither by promises nor by threats may he be induced to do so.
"10. Any action against these orders will be punished. Actions of the enemy against points from one to eight are to be reported.
Reprisals can only be taken upon orders by the higher commanders." international law which was promulgated for the government of the troops in the field? that that was international law, was it not? rules, because they were on the first sheet in his pay-book, which each soldier had to have and carry with him. They were pasted in. The soldier, of course, did not know that that meant international law.
Q The higher commanders like yourself did, didn't you? and obligations as honorable men in combat? collecting the art of France and other occupied territories? labour?
Q You know that it was done, do you not? deported, but we were told that they came on the basis of voluntary recruitment. As to France, I knew that the Frenchmen themselves, from a certain time, did not want to come any more, but that the French Government had given directives itself.
Q Aside from that, then, you didn't know anything about involuntary or forced labor in Germany? Is that your testimony?
came voluntarily. I knew that many were satisfied, but as the German military situation became worse, among these foreign workers -- and, as much as I heard, it was only to a small extent -- there were bad feelings.
A (Interposing) May I say also that in general we saw the reason in the fact that the food for these people was not such as they wanted. Therefore, many officers tried, first of all the Ministry of Speer, to improve the living conditions of these people and to facilitate their condition.
Q You have not yet answered my question. Did you know that forced labor was being brought from occupied territories and compelled to work in Germany? Did you know that? Answer that "yes" or "no." French Government, to come. industry, and were actually forced to man guns? Did you know that?
Q And you heard about it from your fellow officers, did you not?
A I do not know at the moment from whom I heard it. There was an institution which was called "Hilfswillige." It was a recruitment, as much as I know, of volunteers among the prisoners of war.
Q And did you learn about -- even if you didn't participate in it -the plan for the collection of art from the occupied countries?
A No, I did not know anything of this plan. Here in Nurnberg I was told about it by some witnesses.
Q Now I want to ask you some questions about certain exhibits. I refer to number 343-PS, United States Exhibit 463. I would like to have that exhibit shown to you.
(A document was submitted to the witness)
A These letters are signed by myself and they are on my stationery. They must have been drafted by the Sanitaetsinspektion, Medical Inspection. I do not remember the contents any more, as I said a few days ago.
difficulty between ourselves and Himmler. For instance, I never read the statement by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. They were read by the Medical Inspection. correspondence from the SS to our Medical Inspection. letters, but on Friday you testified that you made some alteration in one of them before it went out. Do you want to tell us what that alteration was?
A Yes. These letters were submitted to me in part while I was interrogated, and that is how I remember it. The changes which I made were only as to a question of politeness, with respect to the great sensitivity of Mr. Himmler. I do not believe it is in one of these letters where the change was made; I believe it was another letter. these were brought to you for signature instead of being signed by the bureau chiefs. Do you remember what that reason was?
A. Yes, I had the impression that the medical inspector did not want to write his refusal himself to Himmler, because he was afraid, when Himmler was to leave, because generally he wrote either to the Reichsmarshal or to myself, for one, because he did not know the organization of the air force, his field, because the medical inspector was not under me,
Q. I understand from your interrogation that you gave as the reason why these letters were brought to you for signature, that your office was in fear of Himmler and didn't want to take the responsibility of writing a letter to him, is that right ?
A. Not my office, but I believe the medical inspection did not want to get into a bad position with Himmler.
Q. I think you also said that the officials of that department were afraid of the SS.
A. Yes, that is what I wanted to say.
Q. Were they engaged in any illegal conduct or any activity against the Government ?
A. I did not quite get that.
Q. These people who were afraid.
A. They the Sanitactsinspektion ? No
Q. They were responsible officials doing their duty, as far as you know, is that right ?
A. Yes, Mr Justice. There one has to think about the conditions as they developed durning the war.
Q. That is exactly what I want you to think about, and tell me about; Why were these; people performing their duty in a Goverment office, afraid of Himmler on the SS? Explain that to us.
A. Not of the SS as such, but of the Secret Police. For none of us was the position an easy one. We were all convinced that we were under surveillance and regardless of what rank we had. I believe there was no body about whom there were not files kept, and hence many people, for that reason, were brought to trial. And the difficulties which arose from this fact did not touch only these people, or myself, but went all the way up to the Reichsmarshal, who was also affected by it.
Q. So that in you men, from the Reichsmarshal right down to the humblest citizen, there was fear of Heinrich Himmler and his organization ?
A Well, the amount of fear may have been different in the highest and lowest positions.
Of course, it was in the least, but in the middle bracket it was much more difficult. But it was quite clear that the middle position criticised everything that happened and these criticisms were not tolerated from above. was pretty well understood in Germany.
A The last years of the war particularly so, yes. I could not say how far this was based on facts, but there was that feeling. resign. I call your attention to your testimony in your interrogation by us, about von Fritsch and Beck. They resigned, didn't they?
A No, they did not resign. They were already out.
Q They were thrown out, is that it? opinion after those two left.
A No, I never said that. I cannot remember that. I will be grateful if I could see the minutes.
Q Well, I have them. I will ask you if you were not asked these questions and gave these answers:
"Question: From your knowledge of instructions in army circles, among the air force , and among the general staff people whom you knew would have any opinion as to their attitude for beginning a war, would they share your view?"
The minutes show that you answered "All of them unanimously,all officers agreed with me.
All higher officers agreed with me. A long time ago I had talked to Field Marshal von Blomberg, in 1937, about the danger of war on account of the careless policy of cur politicians and we feared at that time that England or France wouldn't tolerate that policy in the long run. The first of November, 1937, I had a long discussion with von Blomberg about this matter, and he was of the same opinion."
Q That is true, isn't it? You were then asked this "Is it true that after General Fritsch and General Beck left their offices that the position of the army was subordinated to the position of the political personality?"
A No, not subordinate. The army was always directly subordinate to the Fuehrer or the Reichspresident. Nothing was changed. In that, the Chief of State was at the same time the Supreme Commander. read, was this:
"Yes, because Hitler took over the high command personally of the army and the navy and the air force. That was the position that was held by von Blomberg before, and Blomberg was in a position to resist Hitler, which he had done very often, and Hitler respected and feared and listened to his advice. Blomberg was the only elder soldier who was clever enough to reconcile military and political questions. This resistance"-
Q (Continuing) -- "This resistance could not be kept up by the men near Hitler later on. They were too weak for that. For that reason he probably chose them."
Is that true?
Q "Question: Did the generals with whom you associated even before 1939 not feel thatthe course of action which was being taken by Hitler would be likely to result in a war?
"Answer: Those who were able to think in foreign political terms, yes, but they had to be very cautious about it, because they could not utter any opinion, that he dared not utter -- any opinion or writing."
Is that right?
Q And what were the high generals in command afraid of that they didn't utter an opinion?
A That general wouldn't have had a chance to report it to Hitler.
Q Who would have done anything about? There were many generals and only one Hitler. Who was going to carry out any orders against them?
A It was just not possible. Hitler was so powerful that the counter-
arguments of others -- well, he just refused; he never let them utter any.
Q And Hitler had the SS, didn't he, and Himmler, and Kaltenbrunner?
A Yes, he had that also. Besides, he had the entire Wehrmacht, which had sworn an oath on him. interrogation -- that Hitler was no longer normal. Did you make that statement? same as he was in the beginning, from 1933 until the war. I said that after the campaign against France there had been some change in him. That was my personal, private opinion, because that he did afterwards contradicted what he had taught before himself -- contradicted it by 180 degrees. I could not consider that normal.
AAnd you want us to understand that Goering continued to act as No.2 Man and took the orders from that period on, of an abnormal man? Is that your story? man sick of mind; it did not have to go so far; that abnormality could be invisible to the masses. I believe that a doctor could say more about that than I. I talked to some such gentlemen about it at that time.
Q They thought it was their opinion that he was abnormal?
A That there was a possibility of an abnormality. That was affirmed by a doctor who knew him.
Q A doctor of repute in Germany?
A No, he is not very well known. He hadn't told it to anybody else, because that was not visible.
Q He is in a concentration camp, I suppose? probably also would have been there, would you not?
Hitler.
That was during the war.
Q You informed Goering of your opinion? which I had with Hitler.
Q Well, you don't -- I think you misunderstood me. You don't mean you informed Hitler that you considered him abnormal; I am sure you don't mean that.
A No, that I didn't tell Goering either. was issuing the anti-Jewish decrees of the Reich Government?
A No, I didn't know that. As far as I know, they came from a different office. positions were issued by Goering?
A No, I don't know that; as far as I know, these regulations came from the Ministry of the Interior which was competent for that.
avoid the effect of those decrees?
A No. I know what you mean. That was the question that had been cleared long ago; long before that.
Q How long before that was it clear?
Q 1933, right after the Nazis came to power? Goering made you what you call a full Aryan; is that right?
A I don't believe that he made me a full Aryan; but that I was one.
Q Well, he had it established, let us say?
Q That is, your mother's husband was a Jew; is that correct?
Q You had to demonstrate lack of ancestry to any Jewish source; is that correct?
A Yes; everybody had to do that.
Q And in your case it concerned your father, your alleged father; is that correct? attitude of the Nazi Party toward Jews, were you not?
A No, I was not informed; everybody had to submit his papers, and from one grandparent the paper could not be found.
Q And you had never been required to do that under the Weimar Republic? which you became a member in 1933; at about the time this happened?
Q When did you apply for membership?
Q And you had to clear this question before you could become a member; wasn't that the point?
A That was clear during that time. I cannot say just exactly when.
Q In 1933 you became aware of the concentration camp, the first one?
A I believe that was in the year 1933. There was a provocation about that. tration camps and you thought it ought to be investigated; you had to go there and see? should be investigated? 1935, if I remember correctly. I was in Dachau in the spring of 1935. collapse of Germany, didn't they? Dachau, and I only heard them in the circle of higher offices. With other groups I had little contact, I cannot say how much it was generally talked about. about that these concentration camps were the scenes of atrocities as early as 1935, as I understand you; am I correct about that?
Q Why was it that you went to investigate? to dispel the many rumours that there were innocent people there; people who do not belong in there for political reasons -- to despair of that. First of all, at that time mention was made that many members of the so-called reaction were sent there, and with some officers this was the causeof great concern, and I said I would like to see it myself to get my own impression.
Q You didn't need to go to Dachau to find that out, did you? You could have asked Goering; didn't you know that?
A Who?
Q Couldn't you ask Goering who was sent to them?
A No; I never talked to Goering about that.
Q Did you know that Goering publicly said that political enemies of the regime were going to be sent there; that was what they were founded for; did you know that?
that, and that is why I wanted to go and see.
Q And you found nobody there except criminals? dealt in larger things. Of political prisoners I only saw two people; whether there were others I could not say because I cannot be sure that I saw the entire camp. But all we wanted to see -- we used to say we wanted to see this and that, and then we went there and were guided. examination?
A Himmler's.
Q Who asked Himmler if you could go?
A I don't understand.
Q Did Goering know you were making the trip?
A I don't think so.
A It was no special trip. I was living in southern Germany, doing military things, and I set aside one morning, forenoon, for an inspection.
the Roehm Putsch, as you call it?
Q How many were there that had to do with that?
A I can not say that any more exactly. All together, from what I have seen, I would estimate four to five hundred people.
Q Four to five hundred people. And how many were killed?
A Yes, but this figure I can not guarantee; it could be just as well seven hundred. My estimate is around that.
Q How many people were killed in the Roehm Putsch? Reichstag; I can not say that I exactly remember.
Q Why were you so concerned about concentration camps? Did you have any official responsibility for them?
A No, I had no responsibility; but since there was so much talk about it I tried to get an impression, a personal impression, because I told myself many people asked me about that and I could not answer them, and I would like to see for myself if it is possible to get a personal impression.
Q Germany had ordinary prisons for criminal prisoners didn't it?
A Of course; naturally. the criminal population; had they not?
A For that reason they might have been; I could not say.
Q And the concentration camp was something new that came in after 1933?
A Yes. At any rate, I had not heard before that time of any concentration camp in Germany.
Q Did you see any Jews in the camp?
A I don't understand.
Q Did you see any Jews in the concentration camp when you inspected it?
A Yes; there was one barrack which contained Jews, and they all had heavy signs for economic crimes; for fraud and such things. None of them whom we asked--and everybody answered about his punishment--the reason for it political reasons.
The political owes were only the SA men.
Q You couldn't find a single prisoner there who claimed he was innocent?
A No; everyone reported his crime as his punishment.
Q Who accompanied you on that trip? Staff, and I think also Colonel General Udet, and several other gentlemen, but I do not remember at the moment who they were.
Q Who showed you through the concentration camp? Who guided you?
A I don't know what his name was; it was one of the officials of the SD. I assume it was the commander of the camp himself, but I don't know his name.
Q Who was running the concentration camp? What organization was in charge of it?
A I could not say that, but I assume some offices of Himmler's. to you; is that right?
Q Where were you on your leave when this occurred?
A I was in Bergen for a winter leave; in a foreign country.
Q Norway?
A No; no.
Q What country were you in?
A I wasin the Alps; I believe it was southern Tyrol, that is, at that time, Italy. here as Great Britain's Exhibit No.160, concerning the Reich Defense Council meeting held on the 26th of June 1935, some nine months before the occupation of the Rhineland?
A Whether I was present I could not say; I can not remember. Wehrmacht and five members of the Luftwaffe present as well as twenty-four State and Party officials. Were you one of those persons/that conference at which this discussion took place?
A May I ask again for the date?
A I can not remember. I don't know.
Q Did you never learn of that meeting? said at that meeting. be kept secret and the plan was made to invade the Rhineland? Did you ever learn of that meeting?
A I can not remember. I don't believe that I was present.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If Your Honors please, the usual time for adjournment is here. I intend to take up a different subject which involves some documents. It might be a convenient time to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)