Q Did you know of the conditions in the concentration camps?
A. I knew nothing of those conditions. they discussed? concentration camps. It was never discussed.
Q Was the question of the annihilation of Jews discussed?
Q Not even in camp discussions?
A No, not there either. Never were these matters talked about in my presence.
Q Did anyone else mention anything, for instance Himmler?
A Himmler never mentioned anything. I simply heard, while I was in prison, that people who had spoken to Himmler on this matter had been told by him.
Q That what you heard was not true?
A That is false. I myself did not speak to Himmler on this matter.
Q Did you know how many concentration camps there were? existed. Mauthausen, Buchenwald -- it was only after the war that one found out about these camps and one read it in the paper. I knew of the camp of Dachau because I happen to come from Bavaria.
Q Did you ever hear of the cruelties that took place there?
A No, just last year for the first time. When I took my leave of the Reichsmarshal in the middle of March, 1945, the Reichsmarshal told me at lunch that many Jews must have died and that they would have to pay for that. It was in that way that I heard of any crimes against the Jews.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions. I can now turn
THE PRESIDENT: Do any Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions of this witness?
BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW):
the Luftwaffe, you took part in the camp discussions in the Fuehrer Headquarters. Did you also take part in camp discussions when front line commanders were making their reports to Hitler?
AAt such discussions I did not personally take part. I was, however, present at two discussions in adjoining rooms, once when Field Marshall von Kleist was there for a conference, and the second time when the leader of the Crimea Army was present. After the evacuation of the Crimea, the leader of the Crimea Army was there for a conference, the adjoining room because people were speaking loudly. I heard that there were differences of opinion between Hitler and the commanders in question. I can say no more on that. conferences? I do not know their content.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions?
Then, does the Prosecuting Counsel wish to ask any questions? BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON:
Q May it please the Tribunal: You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States?
A I beg your pardon. Could, you please repeat the question. I didn't understand the question.
Q You are at the present time a prisoner of war of the United States? tatives of the United States? United States.
Q You have also had a number of consultations with Dr. Stahmer who has just examined you?
A I had several discussions with Dr. Stahmer who as just addressed questions to me. pared your answers in writing? prepare my answers. ties of your department in releasing persons from them, as I understand you, a large number of applications came to the Goering office for release from concentration camps. concentration camps did not come to me but to the staff. I received only the requests in which people requested help because they had been taken prisoner, among them Jews who were about to be arrested.
Q Were those applications that did come to you numerous?
A My sector was only the field of the Luftwaffe. There were perhaps 10 to 20 such applications. imprisonment or had been in prison, or both? people who were about to be arrested. them. those that came to me. which help was not given to the imprisoned persons?
A I don't know anything about that. I heard from Dr. Witzbach, Chief of Staff, that the requests that came to him were settled in a humane way.
or were you helping people out who were guilty of crime? concentration camps. in concentration camps.
A Yes; they were not brought to concentration camps. I will give you a practical example. A comrade of mine, from the Richthofer Squadron, who was a Jew, was arrested by the Gestapo, was not taken to a concentration camp, but first was simply arrested by the Gestapo. His lawyer informed me. I informed the Reichsmarshal of this case, and the Reichsmarshal instructed me to have this ran freed from his temporary custody by the Gestapo. He was not yet in a concentration camp. This case happened in 1943.
Q What was he charged with when he was arrested? had offended in some way against morals, in that he met an Aryan woman in a hotel room.
Q And did you make any inquiries as to whether the charge was true? in obtaining his release. When I called up, he was released and thereafter stayed under the protection of Hermann Goering.
Q Who did you call up to get his release?
A The Chief of the Gestapo, the chief office in Hamburg. I don't know the name. I didn't make the call myself, but my assistant did so. Hermann Goering?
A Not from Herman Goering's office, but the Reichsmarshal gave specific instructions that that was to occur, and then it did.
Q I thought you said your assistant called up. Did Goering also call the Gestapo himself? belonged to the Luftwaffe hewas released, on the word of the Reichsmarshal?
A He was not a member of the Luftwaffe, he was a civilian. He had previously been one of our comrades in our Richthofen Squadron. He was not in the Wehrmacht. were from the Luftwaffe? Were those your instructions from Gearing? I should act humanely, and I did so in every case. against? older married couples, more than 60 years old. These two couples were to be arrested, and I was informed of this. I told the Reichsmarshal about it, and he told me that these two couples should be taken to a foreign country.
That was a question of the two couples Ballin. In 1923, when Hermann Goering was seriously wounded in front of the Feldherrnhalle, when he was going back to a house, he was taken in by this family and given medical help. Those two families were to be arrested.
Q For what? should be collected in camps.
Q And you knew of that order?
A I did not know the order; it was only through this example, that went through me, that it became clear to me that this transport of Jews should take place. I never read the order myself, nor even heard of it, because I had nothing to do with that. camps merely because they were Jews?
A I am not speaking of concentration camps, but the Jews were to be brought to special collection camps.
Q Not concentration camps, but special camps? Where were they going from there?
Q And whore was this special camp that you speak of?
A I do not know where they were taken to. We simply knew that they were to be taken away. to concentration camps any harm would come to them, did you?
Q Now didn't you hear about the concentration camps, and wasn't the purpose of your saving these people from going to them that the people who went there were mistreated? ment with the Gestapo that were not yet in the concentration camp. concentration camp? out whether the Gestapo had cause for arresting them? against him.
Q But you made no inquiry into that, did you?
A I have already said it was generally known that these people were taken to collection camps, not concentration camps, but they were to be taken away.
Many people know that; they knew that the people were taken to work camps, and in these work camps they were put to work.
Q Forced labor?
A Please?
Q Forced labor?
A It was just ordinary work. I knew, for instance, that in Lodz the people worked in the textile industry.
Q And where were they kept while they were doing that work?
A I can't say; I did not know.
Q They were in a camp, weren't they?
Q You wouldn't know about that? camp? you have drawn that distinction. being in any way ill-treated.
Q And a concentration camp is where they are ill-treated? covered that through the press and through my imprisonment; at that time I did not know it. I learned that from the newspapers. I was in English imprisonment for quite a while, and that is where I found out about it. being taken to collection camps to be taken away. Where were they being taken away?
Q Did you ever inquire? not?
Q And you never ventured to ask him about the concentration camps?
you could? down, and in those cases I assisted, didn't you? had something to do with it. Himmler frequently came to conferences with Hermann Goering, but these were, however, private conversations just between Goering and Himmler. aided Kaltenbrunner to his post when Kaltenbrunner came into office, did you not?
A No, that I didn't know.
Q You didn't know that? office? That I did not know. My activity was confined simply to the military center. I was military adjutant for the Reichsmarshal. I had nothing to do with these things. Aryans out of half-Jews? Luftwaffe came to me, to wit, officers, according to the regulations, would have to be dismissed from the army if they had mixed blood. In many cases the Reichsmarshal gave instructions that these officers should not be dismissed.
Q What was done about it? not to dismiss these individuals. that they were full Aryans, notwithstanding Jewish parentage?
A At the moment I can remember no such case.
broad masses of people, and those requests were submitted to his staff. Is that right?
Q And who was the head of that staff? Witzbach.
Q How many assistants did he have?
A There were three divisions: The press section, with Dr. Goerner in charge of that; private secretary --there were three such sections.
Q And which of these sections handled the peoples requests for relief from arrest?
A Dr. Witzbach and Dr. Goerner were concerned with that.
Q To whom did they talk about these matters, do you know? to the Reichsmarshal. they did?
Q The Reichsmarshal was kept fully informed of these applications to you and to the other sections?
any one of the applications that was made to him, so far as you know? he never refused assistance and actually always did help. helping?
A In most cases, of course, they were innocent; that was already established. I understand from your direct testimony? near to the bomb.
Q Where was Hermann Goering that day? kilometers from the Fuehrer Headquarters.
Q Only seventy kilometers away; is that right? And at that time were you instructed to represent him at that meeting? in this conference as in any other one as a listener. I had no such orders to represent Goering in the Fuehrer Headquarters; I simply came to the Fuehrer Headquarters to inform him of what went on there.
Q You represented him to listen but not to talk; is that right?
A I didn't say very much; I was simply a listener and was to inform him as to what took place at the conference, what would interest him in his capacity as Reichsmarshal. meeting? special commission sent to Muenster Lager to review an Italian division. On the 20th of July, at noon, I came by air to the Fuehrer Headquarters, gave Hitler a military communication, and Hitler said to me, "Come along to the camp." I didn't want to go but I did, and after fifteen minutes the attempted assassination took place.
Q Who sent you with the message? Whose message was it that you were delivering? Lager, to attend the review of the Italian division there and to tell Field Marshal Graziani that the men in this division were to be used to command flak guns. After Field Marshal Graziani had not declared himself agreeable to this I was obliged to go to the Fuehrer Headquarters by air. It had been originally arranged that I should go by train and should go from-
Q Answer my question, witness. Just answer the question, please, and you will save us agreat deal of time. Whose message were you carrying to the Fuehrer? soldiers of the Italian division as had been suggested. with Goering about it, didn't you? few days before I had spoken to him. I had spoken to him when I returned to the Fuehrer Headquarters. At twelve-fifteen I telephoned Hermann Goering in his headquarters and gave him the same message. time and give the message to the Fuehrer? was important to Adolf Hitler to know of this information before Graziani arrived at the Fuehrer Headquarters, where he was expected at three o'clock on July 20. negotiations at Munich?
Q And he was highly pleased with the outcome that was achieved there?
A He was very pleased. I emphasized that before when I said that when he came from the conference room he said spontaneously, "That is peace". wanted that same kind of a peace, didn't he?
in order to counter-check Ribbentrop?
A I know personally only the following in this matter. Here in imprisonment Captain Wiedemann told me that Hermann Goering had expressed the wish to take von Neurath with him, and Wiedemann told me that Hitler had corresponded to that. before Wiedemann got here, weren't you?
A Before? you not then say that Goering used very harsh words about Ribbentrop and asked Hitler to take Neurath to Munich with him in order to have a representative present? Did you not say that to the interrogators of the United States?
AAt the moment I can not recall. If that is in my interrogatory then it must be so. Munich you knew that Goering gave his word of honor to the Czechs that there would be no further aggression against them, do you not?
A Please repeat the question? outcome, he gave his word of honor that there would be no further aggression against the Czechs. Did you know that?
A No, I didn't know that. took place when the Englishmen were present-
A In Husum, yes.
Q Who was the Swedish person who was present?
A There were six to eight English economic experts. The names I don't know.
Q And at that time--by the way, have you fixed the time of that? What was the date?
A I can't say precisely. It was the beginning of August.
Q Wasn't it August the 7th?
A I can't say.
Q Was Mr. Dahlerus there?
A The question was whether Dahlerus was there? I can't remember one hundred percent; I only knew that I spoke with my lawyer and he said that Dr. Dahlerus was there, but I can not swear one hundred percent that he was there. I assume he was. The defense counsel Dr. Stahmer told me that he was there, that was the reason why I said previously that Hermann Goering and Dahlerus were present at that conference. the German Reich? and Germany. There was no talk of relationships with Poland. didn't attack Germany?
A He didn't press it quite that way; he said, as I have already stated, the English gentlemen should, when they return home, work in the same way that he was working for peace and to make their influence felt in important circles.
Q Now,wasn't that said in connection with the Polish negotiations that were then going on?
Q Were you with Hermann Goering when the Polish war broke out?
Q Were you still in your office under Hermann Goering's command?
A Yes, I was under Hermann Goering's command. in the direction of Poland?
A I can't make any definitive statement on that subject; that was a matter with which the General Staff was concerned. I know only that in the time before the beginning of the war the General Staff several times visited the High Command of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Goering, and that this matter was discussed. I myself am not oriented with what or how many forces were to be used in the Polish campaign. Goering informed that he, right after Munich, had orders to multiply the air force by five?
Q You know that the air force was greatly enlarged after Munich?
A No, I don't know that. There was a plan that the Luftwaffe was augmented, but I can not say at all what the German Luftwaffe, at the beginning of the Polish war, had either in the way of leaders or armament or materiel.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, would you like to adjourn now or would you like to go on in order to finish?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This would be a convenient time; I am sure we can't finish before lunch hour.
THE PRESIDENT: You would like to adjourn now?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(A recess auras taken until 1400 hours.)
Official transcript of the International
THE PRESIDENT: We will have no open session tomorrow.
GENERAL RUDENKO: I want to say a few words with respect to the subject of defense. The Defense referred to a document this morning, saying that it did not have the document with regard to Katyn. I want to report right here that on the 13th of February of this year this document, USSR 54, consisting of thirty copies, all in the German language, was given to the Document Room for purposes of the Defense. We did not think that we had to present the document to each attorney for the Defense separately. We considered that if the Document Division received the document, the attorneys for the Defense would receive the copies.
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the General Staff and the OKW): There must be a misunderstanding about the number of this document. At that time, in open session, the Russian Prosecutor submitted a document under the number, USSR-64. USSR-64 has not been distributed. I have not received it, and upon request at the Information Room of the Defendants' Counsel, upon two requests, I have not received it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will inquire into the matter. as follows: BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: was a man of great influence in the councils of the Reich? had access to the Fuehrer and his influence was important.
Fuehrer himself, was it not?
Q Air power was his special mission and his special pride, was it not? the Air Force. the other men of his time, didn't he?
AAt any rate, he was convinced that his air force was very good; but I have to repeat what I said before: At the beginning of the war, in the year 1939, this stage had not been reached by the air force. I repeat that at that time the air force was, as far as leadership and material were concerned, not ready for war. rapidly building up the air force, had you not? you said that was.
A I came to Hermann Goering in 1933. At that time there was no supreme commander of the air force, just a Reich Commissariat for Aviation. But even at that time the beginning of the building up of the air force -- the first beginnings -- started. However, it was only after 1935 when the freedom of building up the force was declared, that it was speeded up.
Q. And the building up of the air force was very largely in bombers, was it not?
A It was not bombers in the main; it was mixed -- fighters and bombers both,
Q Goering also had charge of the four-year plan? year plan.
Q He also held several other offices, did he not? was charged with the four-year plan before, at the beginning of the seizure of power.
He was minister for the Interior in Prussia, and Minister President, President of the Reichstag and Reich Forestry Minister.
Q I notice that you use here -- as you have used in your interrogations by the United States -- the expression "seizure of power."
That was the common expression used in your group, was it not, to describe the coming to power of Adolf Hitler?
A In this sense, No. It cannot be said in this sense. At that time it was completely legal. It was just that the National Socialist was the strongest party, and the strongest party nominated the Reich Chancellor and had the strongest influence. It cannot be understood in such a way, that they assumed power, but they had the most important position among the parties that is completely lega, by election.
Q You want to change the word "seizure," do you?
A Yes, I have to change that. It is more an expression which was circulated in the press at that time; it was common usage in the press. 1945, didn't he?
A Until the year 1945 there was no open break. It was only at the end, as I have said before, the arrest. is that right? But since the year 1943, as I have said before, there was already -- in the attitude of the two men -- an estrangement.
Q That was kept from the German public, was it not? had taken place from the Spring of 1943 to 1945 -- first to a small extent, and then the tension became greater and greater.
Q When the arrest was made it was made by the SS, was it not? had arrived and arrested Hermann Goering in his small house and kept him there. As to that, perhaps the witness to be questioned later, Colonel von Brauchitsch, -- who was presented at this address and who was arrested himself -- can give more details.
Q You were not arrested by the SS, were you?
injured, I was in the hospital. I was close to Berchtesgaden, at Bad Reichenhall, for recuperation. custom at the conclusion of Hitler's address to the group, for Goering as the ranking man present, to assure the Fuehrer on behalf of himself and his fellow officers of their support of his plan?
A Of course, I was not present at all conferences. I only was listener at this particular conference. These conferences in which I took part -it happened on and off that the Reichsmarshal at the end made a remark and assured that the will of the Fuehrer would be executed, but at the moment I cannot remember any particularconference of that kind.
Q You can not remember any conference at which he did not do it either, can you?
A Yes, it was not always done. Just the contrary. It was not the rule that he did that. In the Reichstag Hermann Goering always made a speech at the end, after a session had ended, and in these speeches he expressed his confidence in Adolf Hitler. Fuehrer was present?
A I would ask you to repeat the question. I have not quite understood it. I beg you to excuse me, but due to my injury, I would like to say, I have lost fifty per cent of my hearing, and therefore I beg you to excuse me if I ask to repeat.
QQuite all right, sir. Do you know of any conference between Hitler and his High Command at which Goering did not close the meeting as the ranking officer present by making assurances of support to Hitler's plan. nothing was said at the end; when the Fuehrer had finished, that was the end of the meeting. a very embarrassing time for Goering, was it not?
A Hermann Goering suffered from this fact. He said frequently to me that he would suffer very much from that.
Q From the fact that the Fuehrer was losing confidence in him? He was suffering from the fact that the Fuehrer was losing confidence in him? was that what was causing his suffering? of opinion about the Luftwaffe. to him that the war was lost for Germany, was it not?
A I can not say that. The Reichsmarshal never made a statement to me in 1943 that the war was lost, but that there were great difficulties; that it would become very dangerous, but that the war was finally lost, I can not remember that the Reichsmarshal in the spring of 1943 should have made a statement of that kind to me.