DR. BABEL: Mr. President, this morning I had a conference with for quite a while.
General Mitchell also saw, during our talk bring in a second Defense Counsel for the SS.
I have had to so May I add something?
So far, more than 40,000 members of the
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, no doubt your work has been extensive, informed the Tribunal that his interview with you finished at 10.
15, another Counsel, I think, Dr. Marx, to appear on your behalf, and he cross-examining this witness if he wishes to do so now.
The of this witness now.
I mean to say, you may ask any further
DR. BABEL: The question is only, whether, since I am not in
THE PRESIDENT: M. Dubost, there may be some other German
M. Dubost, do you wish to address the Tribunal?
M. DUBOST: May it please the Tribunal, we have no reason to
THE PRESIDENT: Very well then. Dr. Babel, in view of the him in the course of the next two days.
Do you understand?
DR. BABEL: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMANN (Counsel for Kaltenbrunner): Before I ask the application.
I believe that the trial will progress more expeditiously.
My application is the following, and I speak also of the witnesses, should be informed what witnesses are to be heard?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already expressed its wish to be called and upon what subject.
They hope that Counsel for the
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. I thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
one point is of particular importance. This point concerns a matter
THE PRESIDENT: You are not here to make a speech at the moment.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. It is the question of the responsibility of the German people.
The witness testified that the civilian population could have known of the things that went on.
Now I wish
Q Did civilians see executions take place? Could you answer that question?
convoys. Their bodies were strewn along the roads. When they took took place within the camp?
A Yes. I spent two years in the camp, and I knew of that.
this order that I just mentioned, or what was it that you saw?
A I didn't see any orders; I saw executions. That is all.
Q My question was this. Did you know that strict orders were the people discussed such things as they saw in the camp?
Did you high you could see it for miles away.
They must have been curious
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other Counsel for the Defendants wish to ask any questions?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you tell us who the Green Prisoners were?
THE WITNESS: Yes, these Green Prisoners were the common and they were a sort of an inner police within the camp.
They were executors.
They were the ones that carried out the dirty work that the SS didn't care to dirty their hands with.
not synpathize with them. In all camps the same thing occurred.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish to ask any question in re-examination?
M. DUBOST: I have, no more questions to ask.
THE- PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire.
(Witness excused)
M. DUBOST: I shall request the Tribunal to authorize us to call a Norwegian witness. hear because of the difficulties of interpretation with which we are confronted insofar as the Norwegian is concerned, who speaks neither English nor French, and so we will have to have his deposition translated into French or into English, which presents certain technical difficulties, so we request the Tribunal to hear now Dr. Du Pont, a French witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Very well.
(Whereupon the witness took the stand)
THE PRESIDENT: Is your name Dr. Du Pont?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: Do you swear to speak without hate nor fear; to say the truth, all the truth, only the truth.
(The witness repeated the oath in French).
THE PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand and say you swear.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
(Examination by M. Dubost)
Q Your name is Victor Du Pont?
Q You were born at Charmes, 1909, 9 December; you are of French nationality?
Q You were born of French parents?
Q You have won honorable distinctions; what are they?
A I have the Legion of Honor, Chevalier Legion of Honor. I have two citations from the Army and the Medal for Resistance Activity.
Q Were you deported?
Q You remained there?
Q Until the 20th of May, 1945? camp in which you were interned and the purpose carried out by those who prescribed or formulated this regime? living conditions. There was not basically any regime imposed upon the prisoners on any juridical theory. The principle which was at the basis of this regime was a principle of extermination. Buchenwald without any traditional trial. In 1942, '43, '44 and '45, the decisions which were given relative to prisoners were exceptional. A great part of us were interrogated and then deported. Others were declared innocent by the interrogations, but then deported. Some were not interrogated. I'll give you three examples. at Grenoble during a manifestation having for its purpose the commemoration of the Armistice. They came to Buchenwald, where a great part died.
The same case in the village of "Versheme in Guran" in October, 1943. I saw them also at Buchenwald.
The same case at St. Cloud in April, 1944. I saw these comrades arrive in August 1944. there under the laws of war. There were also assembled whole categories of people who obviously were innocent. Either they had been declared innocent after the interrogation or not even interrogated. Finally, there were some who were political prisoners. They were deported because they belonged to parties who had struggled against Germans.
That doesn't mean that the interrogations were any jests. The interrogations which I underwent and which I saw others undergo were particularly inhuman. I shall enumerate a few of the methods.
Every imaginable type of blow. People were drowned in bathing tubs;
squeezing of testicles; hangings; finally, family tortures. I have particularly seen a wife tortured before her husband. On the other hand, children were tortured before their mothers. I'll cite a name: Francis Bouraille from Paris was tortured before his mother. Once in camp, for all these men, the conditions were the same. political reasons, for official reasons. By what criterion was this carried out? same political prisoners, the same racial, and same gypsy and Jew prisoners, and, also, for social reasons criminally they were there, criminals of all nations, Germans, Czechs, French, Russians, and so on, who lived together with the others, and were subject to the same regime. The purge does not imply necessarily the idea of extermination, but this purge was brought about through the extermination of which I just spoke. It began for us in certain phases, and there was quite an advancement in each phase about which I shall try to cite an example. I would say. By some administrative mystery - by what administrative mystery we never knew, but during the winter of 1944 the first children were all brought together to be sent to be gassed. It is one of the most tragic memories of my deportation, with these children knowing perfectly well what they were waiting for, and who had to be driven towards the gas cars; and screaming and crying as they were driven towards the gas cars.
In other cases the extermination was very progressive. For example, when one convoy arrived, the advance convoy which came up from Compiegne, 24 January 1944 and arrived 26 January, in that transport car which I saw were twelve dead and eight mad out of one hundred persons who were in the car. I saw numerous transports which arrived in this way. Every car in transportation was different but of the same phenomenon; as soon as the convoy arrived enumeration was made of the number of Jews who arrived. Then they were placed in quarantine, after which they were exposed to cold, or, from weakness died. Then there was the extermination through work.
Some were chosen to send to work commanders, such as Dorrar, a.s.o. After their departure had taken place every day, and the quarters were filled, they returned to Buchenwald to bring back to the place the corpses.
I even saw and I was present at autopsies, and I shall tell you the result of those. These people were at extreme stages, those who had even had one month, two months and three months exposure, and frequently you would notice particular lesions, very acute tubercular lesions. At Buchenwald there were ones who had to work, and there was every possible means of only ones conscience surviving these exterminations at Buchenwald. The exterminations at Buchenwald was assured by a screening which was carried out by a chief who did the screening, a doctor.
Q Excuse me for interrupting. This chief doctor was what nationality?
Q Are you sure ? are bringing out? vation. This selection was assured by Schilowski who had selected those informed and ill persons. They were sent before January 1945 to Auschwitz, then more recently to Bergen-Belsen. None ever returned. I saw another case which concerned Jewish working commandos, who was sent to Zeiss, where they remained several months upon assurance when they were incapable of functioning, with the loss of slave work, they received the same visit when they were selected and were sent to Auschwitz. This was on personal observation, and I was present at the selection, and I was witness of their departure. out executions in the camp themselves. They began in September. To my own personal knowledge September 1944 in room seven, a little room in the Revier. The men were treated by an intra-cardian injection, and their labor output was very slight.
At a late date convoys came, and the group of people who had occupied them by that time under general policy were to be executed. For these executions they were first taken to the bath, and then at the time one of the transports, or convoys arrived; but, then in January 1945, they were placed in special block sixty-one. At that time in this block we would find all the men were near the exhausted stage, and we never found them without blankets over their shoulders. They were incapable of the slightest work. They had all to go into block sixty-one and we figured the dead in block sixty-one was daily about ten to two hundred at a minimum. The executions was assured by intra-cardiac injections of phenol. Many were carried out under the most brutal conditions. The bodies were then carried into the crematorium in a cot during the hour of rollcall, and during that night. convoys which left for Buchenwald as the Allies advanced, and these convoys were to insure the extermination of these prisoners. The last day of March 1945 arrived at the Buchenwald camp, and the SS three commandos had withdrawn to Buchenwald, where they arrived completely exhausted and incapable of carrying out the slightest work. They first were to be re-expedited elsewhere two days after their arrival, and between the place they left, which was at the lower part of the camp of Buchenwald, and the place where they were to assemble for rollcall, there were only five hundred meters, and to give you an idea of the weakness of these people -- I only say, that is between where they left and where they were to have the rollcall, not over a distance of five hundred meters, we had sixty bodies which were of prisoners who fell, and could not go any farther, and most of them died very quickly, those of that day, or at a subsequent day. These were methods of extermination which I have know of personally at Buchenwald, and also at Dachau.
Q And for those who remained? story. We were full of anguish for them. After the first of April -- no, I cannot guarantee the date exactly, the Commander of the Camp, Viermann, assembled a great number of prisoners, and he spoke at last about the Allies are coming close to Buchenwald, and "my drsire and my will are that the keys of the camp should be in the hands of the leader of the Allies, and I don't want any atrocities.
I say that all the camp should be under the command of the Allies, and anything after." Three days later the Allied advance having been delayed, at least we thought so far as we were concerned, evacuation began to take place. reminding him of his words, after he had given his word of honor as a soldier, and he seemed to be impressed, and he gave an explanation of the gravity of the communication Schilowski had given. Schilowski had given an order that no prisoner should remain in Buchenwald, after that representation for the prisoners, representing that there was some danger for the prisoners. Buchenwald of the secrets and of the methods in the camp would be done away with. A few days before the Allies came, forty-three of our comrades of the different nationalities were called to be done away with, but what happened then in the camp, all the people in the camp revolted, and they hid the forty-three men, who were never found. That is what I know of those who were employed there in the exterminatory block, or in the infirmary, they were never to leave the camp. That is what I have to say about these events. of honor as a soldier, you say he was a soldier?
A His conduct towards the prisoners was implacable. He received his orders more than he was a soldier, or a special agent, but he was not very close personally with the methods used in the prisoners camp.
Q He belonged to what branch?
Q Was he an SS?
Q He carried out orders, you say?
Q For what purposes were the prisoners used? the human conditions are concerned, they were used for experimental purposes at Buchenwald, that is, the experiments took place in Block 46.
Those who were sent there were selected through the medical examination, and those whom I saw were from selections carried out made especially by Schilowski, and of that man I already have spoken.
Q He was an SS Dictor?
A Yes, an SS Doctor. These prisoners were used for the hardest labor, which was in mining at Dora and Lohr; they worked in salt mines. For instance, the Commander of Gansleben, there they used to work in clearing up the debris after bombings. You must observe that the workers under the commanders were compelled to work under most difficult of conditions of bombing, and the guards became harsher and harsher. factories, and so forth. Here is a special case in Buchenwald. There were two factories at Muehlbau and Rusthof. They were armament factories, and I know they were erected by the workmen, and was carried out, this work, by non-military prisoners. In this special case there was a sort of rivalry between the SS, and the managers under the direction of the factory. The managers of the factory were concerned with the output and tried sometimes to get additional food for the prisoners, and the laborers then who worked there had certain advantages over the others, but they were kept in permanent quarters because these prisoners had no contact with the outside world.
Q You spoke of the military aspect. You spoke of the lack of military relation. These prisoners, however, they were ill treated, were they not?
A Yes, of course. You may hear of that in a moment. Final detail: the prisoners were utilized in more than one way. After their death the ashes Which came from the crematory were placed in the same ditch as the excrement, and this served to fertilize the fields around Buchenwald. I give this detail as it struck me very vividly when I was a prisoner. Finally I said, the work Whatever it was, it was for the prisoners. There was no chance to survive, and as soon as one way or the other they could no longer work they were lost.
Q Didn't they use the prisoners to supply blood?
A I'11 get to that point. I skipped that point. The prisoners who were assigned to light work, whose output was rather slight, were utilized as blood donors.
As a member of the Wehrmacht came in for blood occasionally or on several occasions, I saw at Buchenwald to obtain blood from these men, this blood was taken from them in room called No.2.
Q First, was this done because of their superior qualities?
A It might have been for no reason. It seems significant that these persons in camp had nothing to do with the administration of guard duty in the camp. They came from Schilowski. They belonged to the same division as the SS. Finally, they were utilized in a more recent time in their special way. In 1945, or in the first months of 1945, some who belonged as members of the Gestapo came to Buchenwald to get all the papers of the deaths, so that they could do away with the cross-identity, and to make out false papers. They admitted they were especially utilized to make a false picture, and for using the papers of the dea persons by other persons whom we didn't know. One of the persons disappeared, and I don't know what became of him. We never heard of him again, but this utilization of the items of papers was restricted to the dead. They called on a place which was called the Geldverwaltung with several hundred of the prisoners, who were subject to indications of a reversive nature concerning their identity, and concerning their connections, and under what circumstances they were shown such. Then it was pointed out that they could in no case receive any correspondence, and also of those who should not receive any packages. The contact with the outside world more normally was made less.
We were very concerned about our comrades. As soon as it came to happen, I only want to point out, what use was made of the prisoners who used these false identification cards -
Q What were the results of this sort of life?
why, there was but one result: the general human degradation. This human degradation was insured by the living conditions which I have just pointed out, It was rather a systematic method that there should be an implacable will to degrade these men, and to refuse them a common life, and to reduce them to the lowest possible human level. together, of all kinds of men, and we can see that all different categories of prisoners should be put together, such as, political prisoners and military prisoners, the racial elements, the criminals, the common criminals, criminals from all nations were put together with the compatriots, and all nations were placed together. That degraded the situation. It was dreadful. Then there was the question of hygienic conditions, of forcedlabor, and compulsive labor.
I shall cite for example: Pointing out the mixture of calling together of the different prisoners, and I saw in March 1944 but not since General Duval Geyer. He was in Paris with me. On that day in the evening he was completely exhausted, and not being able to stand, he died shortly after he returned. I saw General Vernaux, who died, and in room number six. Where he had died on a straw mattress there were excrement, and, concerning all dying persons, I saw several who died and one man I saw die -you were to mention? women. He died also on a straw mattress and it was covered with mud. He died from a tubercular malady. I also observed the death of a man named DeLipkowski, who during one time was a very brilliant soldier. He had received from the German Army a war army distinction. He was down in Paris, and anybody who went to Paris and knew this military colleague esteemed his career, and he died wretchedly during the winter of 1944. I still have another, a Belgian Minister Janson who was in a small camp in a condition He died wretchedly. Physically and morally he had reached the extreme condition and the report is, loss of his reason. I only cite special, extraordinary persons, such as generals.
insured, the prisoners were raised up against the other prisoners. you found your professor?
A Yes. Professor Leon Kindberg, my former professor. I was a pupil of this learned man in "Hotel Bijonne".
Q At Paris?
A Yes, at Paris. A man of very great culture and very brilliant intelligence. In January of 1945 I learned that he had just come from Monnawitz. I found him in Block fifty-eight, in the block where normally there should be three-hundred, men, and there were twelve-hundred, and hundreds died from cold, Russians, Czechs, considerable prisoners, and Jewish persons, in a horrible state of wretchedness. I didn't recognize Leon Kindberg when he resembled the ordinary type which you see in this block. His intelligence no longer existed. It was hard to find anything of the man that I had formerly known. We succeeded in getting him out of that block, but unfortunately his health was too impaired and he died shortly after his liberation. were committed towards the men?
A "L.B." after the Armistice was in Toulouse where he practiced physiology. He was a physiologist. I know from absolutely sure sources that he had absolutely taken part in no activity which existed against the Germans who had occupied France. In one way he was considered to be a Jew, and demanded to be a Jew he was arrested and deported. He came to Buchenwald after having gone through Auschwitz and one of the other camps. committed?
A I knew of his activity during occupation. All I can say though, it was nothing to do with the Germans.
Q Count DeLipkowski, what about him?
ordinarily imputed to those guilty of social crimes. The last means used to obtain that end was that all the prisoners should be completely degraded, so as to torture them, to ill treat them, to cause prisoners to ill treat other prisoners, I can give you an example: In Vanzleben, I will say, that is seventy miles from Buchenwald, Command A-6, there were prisoners of all nationalities there. There was there prisoners of France. I was there, and I had seen General Dubarry and Bebal, and -
Q Was he a Catholic?
A Yes, a Catholic. At Vansleben the hangings took place in public, and in the same hall of a factory belonging to the town, and the SS were present in uniform, in party uniform, in their uniform with decorations, and they were present at these hangings. The prisoners under threat of the most violent blows were forced to be present at these hangings. At the time when they hanged these unfortunate beings, the prisoners had to make a Hitler salute, There was worse than that:
One prisoner was selected to pull away the stool on which the person had been who was to be hanged. He could not but he had to carry out this order, as it was dangerous not to do it. Finally, the hanging was carried out, and the prisoners had to decide that they had to come and touch the body, and every exact detail carried out of looking into the eyes of the man who had been hanged. Thus I believe the men who had been forced to undergo this ceremony soon lost their humanitarian view and attitudes. camp, and all the executive work was given over to the prisoners, that work concerned the executions which were carried out by particular prisoners. The hangings were carried out by German prisoners assisted by other prisoners, and the police work was done by prisoners also. When some one in the camp was to be hanged, these other prisoners had to go and get it, and take it to where they were to be hanged. The commandos whom we knew well, were called; I'll say particularly in Dora and Lora, these were extermination camps. The prisoners who selected those to go over, was a selection made by the other prisoners. Thus they made prisoners descend to the lowest possible human level by forcing them to be executioners of their own brothers.
orders for the extraction of those who were incapable of work, and there was carried out these executions by men who were made by the other prisoners under the supervision or control of the SS, where this Block bore a very inhuman point of view of the greatest crime one saw committed, for men were forced to torture their fellow human beings so they never must come back to life, and their characters were profoundly mortified.
Q Who were those responsible. Who was responsible for these crimes? then I can tell. One thing that struck me particularly, that these methods which I observed in Buchenwald, I found them also in Auschwitz as almost exactly the same as found in all the camps. They were in a way the same in which the camps were run with uniformity; with a method which showed that there was a uniform superior order. In Buchenwald, the personnel , as hard as they might have been, would not have initiated such acts, and, moreover, Dr. Lolling, the SS doctor himself always alleged superior orders. Even the name most frequently used was that of Himmler. Other names were involved, or brought up for Block sixty-one, the extermination block. The name of the chief doctor of all camps, Dc. Lolling, was frequently brought up, especially by SS doctor of the camp, Dr. Vonkenser. Of other selections of infirmed prisoners and Jews who was sent over to Auschwitz, or Bergen-Belsen, for acts I remember the name of Pohl Polizei.
Q What were the functions of the POHL? German people as a whole, or could they come to their knowledge? the convoys, and at the time when our convoys arrived there in the camps in cars, in certain freight cars, the prisoners were naked, and others were clad, and the population who were at the station where they arrived were quite numerous, and they saw these convoys.
Some people were aroused, and some incited the soldiers and the SS to so utilize brutal methods, and there were others there in the population that could be informed. Then first of all, the commandos who work outside the camp at Buchenwald. There were work commandos who went to Weimar, some went to Erfurt, and some others went to Vena. They left in the morning and returned in the evening. Then during the day they were in places where this civilian population was present, and in the factories with the prisoners, or the supervisors, who were not military. During all day long the supervisors made the prisoners work in the same factory where there were civilian workers. That was the case in Weimar. insured by the civilian service. I have seen civilian trucks come into the camp, or wards. Those in charge of the railroads were forced to know about these things. The numerous trains which came every day and brought prisoners from one camp to another, and from France to Germany, where these trains were directed by German railroad men. In Buchenwald there was the regular railroad service which ended at the station of Buchenwald. This was the end of the line; then those in charge of the railroad could be informed about these convoys. could hardly fail to be informed of those things, also those working in the factories, and, I'll add that there was an extension where sometimes a German prisoner received a visitor. I know of a specific German case of a German who received visitors from his family, and he could hardly fail to inform them of what was going on. these camps, for all of these reasons.
Q What about the Army?
A The Army knew about these camps. At least, so far as I could tell you from being in Buchenwald. At least once there was a contest, or a mission, so a group of officers came to visit the camp. Among these officers there was the SS. I saw on very very many occasions members of the Wehrmacht, members of the Luftwaffe, who came and made these inspections, and sometimes we even were even able to identify these personages who visited the camp.
Really so far as I was concerned, 22 March 1945, General Bungrowski came to visit the camp, and stayed there a long time in Block sixty-one. He was on his inspection accompanied by General --- a general in the SS, and the Chief Doctor of the camp, Dr. Schilowski. Another point, and the very last time --
Q Excuse me for interrupting you. Will you tell us about Block 16. general debility who were so weak that they could no longer carry out any work whatsoever.
Q Is it from personal observation that you can tell us about Block 16?
Q And who was the general? General Bungrowski?
Q And a doctor and an SS general?
Q Were there any members in the camp from the university circles? doing this work that I speak of. We found ourselves faced with cases which a doctor would not be able to observe now. These cases have been described in recent times in manuals. These instructions were prepared and came particularly from the University of Jena. On the other hand, there were also some exhibits which were not truly anatomical and which came from the university.
Q You personally saw these tattooings prepared in the universities? How did they get these tattooing exhibits? Before our arrival, according to witnesses -- I am now speaking of people that know about it -- a man was killed and then he was to be tattooed. This was in Buchenwald. I am telling now what someone told me. I was not there at the time The commander of the camp, a certain Koch, executed men who had particularly interesting or artistic tattooing on their skins. The person who have me this information comes from Luxembourg. His name is Nicholas Simon, and he spent six years in Buchenwald, and under exceptional conditions he was able to observe very closely.
things.
THE PRESIDENT: We had better have an adjournment now.
(Whereupon a recess was taken from 1540 to 1550 hours.) BY M. DUBOST: stating to the Tribunal that Koch had been executed, not in punishment for the crimes that he had committed on the internees under his guard, but because of numerous small misdeeds that he had been guilty of in connection with his service.
Did I understand the explanation of the witness correctly? I did not specify the generalities of the accusation. I cannot affirm that he was exclusively accused of small misdemeanors, but I know that was part of the accusation.
Q Have you nothing to add?
A I can say that this information came from Dr. Owen who was arrested at the same time as he was, who was set free again, and who, in the latter period, that is, during the first months of 1945, was back in Buchenwald.
Q What was his nationality?
Q He was interned?
A He was an SS. He had been arrested, Koch and himself, at the same time. Owen was liberated and came back to Buchenwald with his rank and his functions in the beginning of 1945. He was quite willing to speak to the internees and the information that I have given comes from him.
M. DUBOST: I have no further question to ask of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions?
MEMBERS OF BRITISH PROSECUTION: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any member of the defense counsel wish to ask any questions?
BY DR. MERKER (Counsel for Gestapo): Buchenwald were not something specifically characteristic of the camp Buchenwald, but could be traced back to a general order that applied to all camps. You stated, as grounds for this, that you had seen similar methods applied in all other camps. How am I to understand this expression "in all other camps"?
A I spoke of the concentration camps. I emphasized specifically some of them, Mauthausen, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, kommandos like Dora, Lora, Estora, Vansleben, Ebensee, only to mention those.
Q Were you personally present in those camps?
A I personally went to Buchenwald. As for precise testimony as to the others, I collected it amongst my friends who had been in those camps Moreover, the figures of the dead were sufficiently eloquent to prove that in all those camps they exterminated people in the same manner.