THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: The substance will be obtained orally from the witness. BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:
Q. Do you confirm the facts set forth in that statement?
A. Yes, I confirm them.
Q. What was the reason for your making the statement to the Soviet Government?
A. In the Second World War, things occurred on the German side which were against the old laws of medical ethics. In the interests of the German people, the medical science of Germany, and the training of the younger generation of doctors in the future, I consider a thorough approach necessary.
The matters in question are the preparations of bacteriological warfare causing epidemics and experiments on human beings. April 1946 to the Soviet Government, and not before that date? bacteriological warfare might come up for discussion. When that did not occur, I decided to make this statement in April. opportunity of following the trial at Nuernberg? the club room. In addition, there was the information for prisoners of war printed in Soviet Russia which reported regularly on the trial. on the part of the German leadership in connection with bacteriological warfare? conference at which I as representative of the Army Medical Inspectorate took part. This conference took place in the rooms of the general Wehrmacht office in Berlin, in Bendler Strasse. The chief of staff of the general Wehrmacht Office, a colonel, was in charge of the meeting. I do not recall the name of this colonel. The colonel said by way of introduction that as a result of the war situation, with reference to the question of the utilization of bacteria as a weapon in warfare the High Command authorities now had to take a different point of view from that of the Army Medical Inspectorate, which had been held up to that time. Goering with the direction of carrying out all preparations for bacteriological warfare, and had given him the necessary powers.
A bacteriological warfare group was formed at this meeting. The members of this group were essentially the same gentlemen who had been taking part at the conference; that is, Ministerial Director Professor Schuhmann of the science section of the Army Armaments Office; Ministerial Director Stantin of the Army Armaments Office, Weapons Examination Section; Veterinary General Professor Richter, as representative of the Veterinary Inspectorate; and from the Army Medical Inspectorate, Oberstaatsarzt Professor Kliev, only as an observer, however.
26 Aug M LJG 3-1 Ahuna representative of the High Command, a staff officer of the Armament's Office and a representative of the Weapon's Office. There was a zoologist and a botanist but I do not know the names of these gentlemen. to be created at which bacterial cultures were to be produced on a large scale, and scientific experiments were to be carried on to examine the possibilities of employment of bacterias which could be used against animals and plants, which were also to be examined and made available as they were practicable. That, exactly, are the contents of the conference in July, 1943.
Q And what took place after that? What do you know about that? of the Army Medical inspectorate, Generalarzt Schmidtbruecken, who was my direct superior, that Reich Marshal Goering had told the Deputy Reich doctor Blome that he had appointed him to carry out the work, and had told him that the Institute in or near Posen was to be established as quickly as possible. At this Institute in Posen, Ministerialrat Schuhmann was active, and Ministerialrat Stantin, and a number of other doctor scientists whom I do not know. I myself reported a few days later to the Chief of Staff in the Army Medical Inspectorate, Professor Handloser. He was in Berlin at the time. carried out in this connection and in order to have the preparation of bacteriological warfare? I do not know about them. I know only that spraying attempts from planes with bacteria were experimented with, and that insects harmful to plants were experimented with, but I cannot give details. I did not experiment with it myself and do not know the details.
26 Aug M LJG 3-2 Ahuna consecrated to these questions took place under the chairmanship of a colonel belonging to the OKW. On the order of whom and in the name of whom did he do so? the German Wehrmacht Office, General Reinecke.
Q Who ordered you to take part in this meeting? me. the measures which were being taken in order to prepare bacteriological warfare? chief whom I informed of the contents of the conference was, in his capacity as army doctor, that is, as supreme medical officer of the Army, directly subordinate to the chief of the Army and had to report to him about it. Jodl in the preparation of these measures? Jodl. decision of the Supreme Command in the preparation of the bacteriological warfare? that secret conference, the defeat at Stalingrad which, in contrast to the fighting at Moscow in the winter of 1941 to 1942 was a severe blow for Germany. First, a re-evaluation of the situation, and consequently, no decision. It was no doubt considered whether new weapons could be used with which the issue of the war could still be turned to an advantage. not put into effect their plans for the waging of a bacteriological war?
26 Aug M LJG 3-3 Ahuna for the following reasons. In March, 1945, I was visited at my office at the Military Medical Academy by Professor Blome. He came from Posen and was quite excited. He asked me whether I could put he and his men up in the laboratories at Sachsenburg so that they could continue their work there; he had been forced out of his Institute at Posen by the advance of the Russian Army; he had to flee from the Institute; he was not even able to blow it up; he was quite worried that the arrangements for human experiments which were at this Institute and which were recognizable as such might be recognized by the Russians; he had tried to have the Institute destroyed by a Stuka bomb but that was not possible and now he asked me to see to it that he and his best cultures which he had saved be permitted to continue working at Sachsenburg.
I told Mr. Blome that Sachsenburg was no longer under my command and for that reason I could not give him that approval, and referred him to the Chief of the Medical Army System, General Handloser. The next day General Handloser called me up and said that Blome had come to him and had an order from the Commander of the replacement army, Himmler, and that on the basis of this order he was unfortunately compelled to give Blome a place to work in the Sachsenburg. I took note of this but I had nothing more to do with it. Thus Mr. Blome had been thrown out of the Posen Institute. The work of such an Institute must be very difficult. must have a laboratory with appropriate precautionary measures. The personnel must be trained and must have practiced, for a German even, an export bacteriologist has no experience with plague cultures. That takes time, and so the Posen affair had to be continued, then only a considerable time later. Now it had suffered a severe blow; now it was to begin work at Sachsenburg. In his visit to me, Mr. Blome told me that he could continue his work at another laboratory in Thuringia, but that this was not yet completed.
that it would take a few days,on even a few weeks to finish it, and that he had to have shelter until then. In addition, if the spreading of the plague was to be used when the military operations were so near the borders of Germany, when the units of the Red Army were already on German soil, of course, special protection for the troops and the civilian population had to be considered. A serum had to be produced. This again took time; and as a result of all these delays the affair was never put into effect.
Q. Witness, will you kindly tell us now what you know about the illegal experiments carried out on human beings by German doctors ? I would ask you to testify very shortly as to these questions because they have been sufficiently gone into before in the trial.
A. Officially I learned of a few things. In 1943, I believe it was in October, at the Military Medical Academy, we had a scientific meeting of qualified doctors, so-called advistory doctors, and with the staff of the bacteriologists which included about 30 gentlemen; and Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Dring made a speech on the examination of typhus vaccine. The speech indicated that this Dr. Ding had, in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, inoculated prisoners with various vaccines against typhus. After sometime, I don't know how long it was, he had artificially infected them with typhus by infected lice which were infected with typhus, and from that he determined whether these people contracted typhus or not, he drew conclusions on the value of the vaccine. Since vaccines of various qualities were examined, there were cases of death.
Q. Now, what were the scientific value of the experiments carried out by this Dr. Ding ?
A. In my opinion they had no scientific value at all. In the course of the war, we had empirically made many gains in this field, collected a great deal of experience. We knew our vaccines very well, and there was no need of such examinations. A number of the vaccines which Ding examined were not used at all in the Wehrmacht, they'd be rejected.
Q. Please continue, please continue.
A. A second affair of which I received official notice was the following: The head of the hospital in Hohenlychen, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Professor Gebhardt a talented surgeon, had carried out head operations on Russian prisoners of war and had killed the prisoners at certain intervals in order to observe the pathological changes, the progress of the bone changes on the basis of trepidation, the results of the operations, and so forth. In the third place here in Nurnberg, I participated in a scientific meeting carried out by the High Command of the Luftwaffe.
Q. When did this take place ?
A. The meeting was in 1943, I cannot say exactly when it was. I believe in the Fall of '43.-- it may have been in the Summer. At this meeting which was held in the hotel by the railroad station, two doctors, Dr. Cramer and Professor Hoelzldemner, director of the physiological institute at the University of Kiel, reported on experiments which they had carried out on behalf of the High Command of the Luftwaffe in Dachau on the inmates of the concentration c*--* The purpose of the experiments was to create the basis for the production of a new productive uniform for flyers. In the Channel, numerous German planes had been shot down and had, in a short time, found their death in the cold water before the rescue plan could reach them. Now, a suit was to be made which would in some way have an insulating effect, protect the body against cold. For this purpose the persons, during the experiments, had to be put in water of varying temperatures -- I don't know exactly what all the temperature were; and it was established how the curve of the fall of body temperature was, and where the border is between life and death, at what temperature, and the subjects of the experiments had on various suits. The ordinary ones which were used at that time and other ones. I recall one special suit which developed a foam between the suit and the skin, that is, a layer of air which has a strong insulating effect, and death could be postponed for a considerable time by this suit. Of course, in these experiments which were undertaken under narcosis, a number of subjects lost their lives.
Q. Please tell us what connection the Defendant Goering had to the experiments carried out at Dachau ?
A. Dr. Kramer said at the beginning of his speech that defendant Goering had ordered these experiments, and that the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler had kindly made available the subjects for the experiments.
Q. But you yourself do admit the possibility that similar experiments could be carried out without the knowledge of the defendant Goering.
A. I cannot imagine that.
GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, you were in a Russian Prisoner-of-War Camp ?
A. Yes.
Q. Where ?
A. Near Moscow.
Q. Did you hold any office in this camp ?
A. No. I held no office in the prisoner-of-war camp.
Q. How did it come about that you made your statement on the 10th of April did you yourself take the initiative or were you asked to do so ?
A. I myself took the initiative when here in Nurnberg I heard the report of Kramer and Hoelzloehner. I was deeply shocked about the perversion on the part of the German doctors. For that reason, I spoke to Professor Handloser who shared my opinion, and when more and more such things were reported in the papers, I considered it my duty -- I refer to what I said before-- in the interest of the future of the medical profession, I considered it my duty to clear these things up once and for all.
Q. What did you learn about such things ?
A. What I said before.
Q. No, I mean what you learned in the prisoner-of-war camp .
A. From the papers which we received.
Q. What did you learn from the papers ?
A. I learned -
Q. One, moment, Witness. Do you have a piece of paper before you ?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say ?
A. "You can speak faster."
Q. One question : Your testimony in answer to the questions for the Russian Prosecutor today,was it prepared ?
A. I was examined, and what I said is in this statement.
Q. I ask you, Witness, whether before the examination today, you were orientated by the Russian Examiner on what you were to testify to ? Was your testimony previously determined ?
A. No, but that I would speak about bacteriological warfare and experiments on human beings, that I knew.
Q. Now, to the statement; you have the statement before you ?
A. Yes, here it is.
Q. At the end of that statement there is a note. Would you please look at it ?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this note put on this document in your presence ?
A. No, I received this document here in this room a little while ago.
Q. And something else, was your signature on the original certified ? Or did you send off the original before this note at the end was put on which is at the end row ?
A. I gave my statement. No note was written on it in my presence.
Q. Was any advantage premised to you for making this report ?
A. No, you know that.
Q. I do not know. That is why I asked you.
A. No.
Q. Was there, at any time, in the German Army Medical Service, fear that the Soviet Union might use bacteria as a means of combat ?
A. Not in the Army Medical Inspectorate, but in the General Staff. In 1942, the General Staff inquired of the Army Medical Inspectorate whether the use of bacteria, as a weapon, might be expected by the enemy in the East. I, myself, wrote the answer. On the basis of intelligence reports, and the reports of the army doctors from the eastern front, and from the epidemic situation of our troops, we could give a negative answer to this fear. That was in 1942. The answer was prepared by me and signed by General Handloser. In 1939, a similar statement, which was worked out more or less to the same effect, was signed by the General Physician, Dr. Waltman.
Q. In 1943, after Stalingrad, an order for the preparation of this bacteriological warfare against Russia was issued. Do you know who issued the order to prepare this warfare. I ask you, do you know who issued this order ? It is a clear question. I ask you to answer it equally clearly.
A. It was not said at the conference who issued it.
Q. You do not know who issued the order ?
A. No.
Q. Then, you do not know or do you know the exact contents of the order ?
A. No. I did not receive any written order. The Chief of Staff of the General Wehrmacht Office said that the Reichsmarshal had been entrusted by the Fuehrer with the powers and so forth, to carry out all the preparations.
Q. And what you said about it is hearsay. You do not know it yourself ?
A. It was said officially at the conference. Of course it is not hearsay At an official conference, we who were assembled there were told that.
Q. When you were told that at this conference, what was your capacity ?
A. I was a representative of the Army Medical Inspectorate.
Q. when this suggestion was made known, what did you do, you yourself ?
A. I pointed out that bacteria were an unreliable and dangerous weapon. I did nothing else.
Q. You were an expert. Since 1942 you had been a professor ?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said nothing else ?
A. No, nothing else.
Q. Why did you not say anything else ?
A. Because we were facing a 'fait accompli'.
Q. You were told it was only to be discussed ?
A. We were told it was not to be discussed. We were told, "This situation has been decided. This decision has been made".
Q. But it was an accomplished face only if this bacteria were actually used. The preparations were merely to begin. A strong objection by a professor in his high position might have had some effect, it might have changed this ?
A. According to our experience, nothing could be done against such a decision. I pointed out that it was a dangerous and unreliable weapon.
Q. You could have stood up and made some strong protest ?
A. It would have been better if I had done it.
Q. That is enough on that point. The working group was to meet once a month in the rooms of the General Wehrmacht Office in Berlin. Do you know how many meetings took place ?
A. No. I cannot say.
Q. Do you know when the last meeting was ?
A. I cannot say that either.
Q. Were any meetings held ?
A. Yes. Meetings were held.
Q. Do you know whether there are records of these meetings ?
A. I assume so, certainly. Professor Klieve from time to time informed me
Q. Did you yourself, belong to this working group ?
A. No.
Q. When and in what way did Professor Blome receive powers from Goering to carry out the immediate practical tasks of the preparation ?
A. Immediately after this conference, perhaps even on the same day or previously for at the conference, Blome was mentioned, although it was said he was just proposed. However, two years later, I was told Blome was appointed.
Q. And how do you know that ?
A. From my direct superior. Generalarzt Schmidtbruecken.
Q. At what time did the spraying experiments from airplanes take place ?
A. I cannot say;
Q. What do you know about these experiments ?
A. The following: Bacterial emulsions were pathogenic bacterial which could be easily found when sprayed from planes on an experimental field close to the Institute at Posen.
Q. Did you, yourself, see such experiments ?
A. No.
Q. How do you know that these experiments took place ?
A. Klieve spoke to me about these spraying experiments and said to me that first a dye had been taken which had more or less the same specific weight as a bacterial emulsion, in order to test the dye, and then experiment with bacteria.
Q. Did Klieve see these experiments himself ?
A. I believe so.
Q. You cannot say for sure ?
A. I would not like to swear to it, but it is very very probably.
Q. You say that at this conference in July 1943, that a colonel was acting for Fieldmarshall Keitel and General Reinecke ?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that ?
A. I personally reported to General Handloser, and Handloser expressed his opinion about the matter to me. It was an extremely dangerous matter for us doctors if it actually came about, if a plague epidemic came into existence. The plague epidemic would not stop at the border, but it would come over to our side. We had to bear a very great responsibility.
Q. You have deviated a little. We will come back to this point. I wanted to know whether you can give any facts to prove that the High Command of the Army was informed ?
A. No. I cannot.
Q. It is a pure assumption, then ?
A. Yes. But it is quite obvious -
Q. Whether it is obvious or not, I want to know whether you know of any facts ?
A. No, I cannot give any facts.
Q. To whom was Professor Handloser subordinate ?
A. He had a triple relationship. He was Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical System, and in that capacity, he was under Fieldmarshal Keitel of the OKW. He was Army Medical Inspector; in this capacity, he was under the command of the Replacement Army under Generaloberst Fromm, and later Himmler and Jeuttner.
Q. You were also questioned about the reasons why this bacteriological warfare was not carried out. What reasons did you learn of positively ?
A. The head of the Institute at Posen, Professor Blome reported this to me when he visited me. He expressed his plight.
Q. Do you, yourself, know whether a military Command Authority gave the positive order that this bacteriological warfare was not only to be prepared but was also to be carried out ?
A. No, I did not see that order.
Q. Then this was merely preparation -
A. Preparation of bacteriological warfare was what I said.
Q. As a high-placed General, did you, yourself, speak about this bacteriological warfare ?
A. No.
Q. Do you know from your own knowledge whether any high-placed General knew of these intentions ? I am asking you whether you know it ?
A. I was not there when a General was informed about it.
Q. Then you do not knew.
A. No.
Q. Do you know how far apart the enemy troops and cur troops were ?
A. What differed a great deal.
Q. What was the normal distance ?
A. I am not a front soldier. I would not lime to speak on a subject of which I know nothing.
from our own troops. Would you, as a doctor, consider the employment of plague bacteria safe and not dangerous for our own troops? of plage bacteria always dangerous. ally existed. Would that not have meant an enormous danger for our troops?
A Not only for the troops, for the whole German people; the refugees were moving from east to west. The plague would have spread with immense speed.
THE PRESIDENT: It is useless to ask the same question over again. The witness has already said so. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q May that not have been one of the reasons why this warfare was not used?
AAccording to the statements which Mr. Blome, the head of the institute and deputy of the Reichsmarshal, made to me, no. He was, with all his energy, trying to cultivate his cultures somewhere else.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I ask for the recess now and ask a few more questions of the witness later?
THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal thinks you should finish now. BY DR. LATERNSER: prisoners of war were shot because an epidemic had broken out among them. You say that this was a labour camp of the Waffen SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
Q This incident was reported to you?
Q Did you report it to your superior?
A Yes/
Q What was done? Grawitz, and through these official channels the affair was reported to the office which was the supervisory agency for this camp.
Q Do you know whetherrany juridicial steps were taken?
A I do not know of the proceedings of the SS courts; I do not know.
Q Then you write on Page 7: Especially terrible treatment was given to the Russian prisoners of war by the High command of the Wehrmacht, . Then you write that the Russian prisoners of war were given inadequate food. immediately after the capture in the reception camps behind the front or in prison camps in Germany? camps. There, even with the best intentions, the state which has taken the prisoners is not always able to care for them as would be necessary. I am speaking of a later period when the prisoners had been for works in the hands of the Germans and I am speaking of camps which were in the Baltic countries. They were not taken to Germany. The Russian prisoners were brought to Germany only later. The conditions in these camps were extremely poor.
Q Were these poor conditions due to bad intentions?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal did not allow the statement to be put in and you are now cross examining upon a subject which is totally distin*--* from the subjects upon which the witness has given evidence.
DR. LATERNSER: These statements are in the written declaration of the witness
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you must have heard that we did not allow the written statement to be put in as evidence. We asked that the witness should be examined orally and he was examined orally and the written statement is not yet in evidence BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I have one more question, Witness. Your objections against this bacteriological warfare, did you ever write them down?
Q When did you make this statement?
A In '42, -
Q Now, that is enough. The conference took place in July, '43. Did you express your opinion on this point in writing afterwards?
Q Did your superior, after you reported to him, write down his objections?
A Not that I know of. General Handloser was in the headquarters and I in Berlin. He came once a week or once every two weeks, we reported to him, and then he went back to the headquarters.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.) Take 7. Ninabuck.
THE PRESIDENT: Before we continue I will deal with three applications. First of all, the application, of Dr. Kaufmann of the 20th of August, 1946. It appears originally to have been dated the 15th of August. That application will be granted, and an affidavit by the witness Panzinger may be put in evidence, provided it is put in evidence before the end of the trial.
With reference to the application by Dr. Pelckmann dated originally the 22nd of August, 1946, the applications is denied.
The two applications by Dr. Dix dated the 20th and the 21st of august, both applications are denied.
Now, is there any further cross examination on behalf of the Defense?
Does the Soviet desire to reexamine?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: The questioning on the part of the Soviet Prosecution has been exhausted, Mr. President. We have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
****************
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Pelckmann.
DR. PELCKMANN: First, I should like to make reference to two points. In the letter of the 23rd of August I had announced that my plea cannot be translated. Secondly, I should like to recall to the attention of the Tribunal that the-
THE PRESIDENT: Sixty pages of it have already been translated, I understand.
26 Aug M LJG 8-1 Blakley
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes. The French translation, however, has not been made yet; and furthermore I beg to point out to the Tribunal that concerning the answers to the questionnaire which I have sent to the witness Rauschnigg, these answers have not been received yet. 27th of February, 1933, the German Reichstag was consumed by fire, the Nazis willed that out of those flames the thousand years of the Third Reich should be born. When, a little more than twelve years later, all of Germany was drowned in an ocean of flames, that Reich vanished into rubble and ruins.
Both of those historic events were followed by trials. Their meaning was and is to determine those responsible for those two crimes of human history.
The Germans Supreme Court did not solve that task. It is true that it acquitted with remarkable braveness, as Mr. Jackson has stated, the indicted Communists, but it failed to determine and certainly to sentence those who were really guilty, who hired the unfortunate tool, van der Lubbe, and who performed the deed with him. Thus, under the impact of public opinion, the truth has been muzzled and has been concealed by the Nazi Government. Formal justice has been satisfied. The culprit had been sentenced, but that Divine power, Truth, and the deepest human insight -- they remained hidden. They alone would have been able to open the eyes of the German people at that time and had the power to hold it back from the abyss. task of passing judgment. Whose guilt was that world conflagration? Who was responsible for the destruction of foreign lands and finally for the infernal downfall of our German Fatherland? and again there exists the danger that this Court too should pass merely a formal verdict, naming guilty ones -- but that the deepest and last truth should remain hidden by the power of psychosis which, in accordance with the law of psychology and psycho-analysis, would be the natural consequence of the many 26 Aug M LJG 8-2 Blakley years of struggle between the Hitler regime and the free peoples of the world.
Germany and all the world, from an abyss deeper and more horrible than anything experienced before?
This trial is a criminal trial. It is truly the greatest as far as the number of defendants and people concerned, and above all, the most important which ever was recorded by legal history, Therefore, it followed that Anglo Saxon legal principle which governed the Charter, which was reaffirmed during the public proceedings, that the prosecution had to collect and to present only those factors which could discriminate, never those that could excuse the accused. Effectively, the prosecution is supported by the mass psychosis to which all the witnesses of the greatest "cause celebre" of world history are subject, for reasons which international scientists, particularly le Bon, have given in detail. Openly and cheerfully I confess that in the course of the defense which I conducted, I did not use the corresponding principle of painting black on white. I too was endangered by the possible mass suggestion exerted by those hundreds of thousands of voices which reached me from the internment camps, and I was tempted to defend at any price, -- losing by that, that basis of facts, as they actually were. This result shows already the dangerous reaction brought about by such a mass accusation and its political consequences. painting the high Tribunal would have been betrayed in its search for the real truth. I did not see my task in doing so, although the principles of the charter would have given me the right of doing so. In such a trial, concerned with the very basis of humanity, with the demonstration of innocence and guilt, with the fate of the German people and the future of the world, it cannot be left to the cleverness of methods in the contradicting use of 26 Aug M LJG 8-3 Blakley prosecution and defense to expect the Tribunal to decide that the truth might be situated in between.