3148 from which we also see that the commander in chief in the Southeast decreed that English Commando Troops who were landing on the Aegean islands were not to be considered as commandos but rather they were to be treated as German prisoners-of-war.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, you have over half a day now. The Tribunal would like to know what it is further that you have to refer to.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, in a minute I shall complete my reference to the Kommando Order, and then I shall refer briefly to the deportation of workers. That will take perhaps two minutes, and then I shall deal with crimes against humanity war crimes. I believe, Mr. President, that I shall conclude in twenty minutes altogether.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal has already -at least I have already pointed out to you over and over again that all you are doing in substance is to read out what is already before us in writing, with certain references in addition to the Prosecution's evidence. In nearly every case we have before us in writing exactly what you say about these affidavits.
There is no use nodding your head at me. I have checked it and that, in the opinion of the Tribunal, is quite unnecessary. You can go on and you must refer us to the affidavits which you say relate to these topics, which you have properly announced as topics upon which you were going to produce documents. That is to say, deportations, rules of war and humanity, and you may refer to the numbers of the affidavits which deal with that and refer us also to the numbers, particularly of the documents which have been translated, and then we shall know where to find the documents which are important. Now, will you please go on?
DR. LATERNSER: I had left off with the statement that according to Affidavit 3174, the Kommando Order did not apply to the 20th Mountain Division and that is was changed by the agreement of the Commanding General. in the naval sector of Italy. For the Eastern Theater of War, Affidavits 608 and 616, as well as 624, show that the order was not carried through.
THE PRESIDENT: In order to show that I was entirely accurate in what I said to you, what we have before us is 608, General Bilka, "Rejection of the order by all Commands in the East. No instance of shooting." Go on.
DR. LATERNSER: With respect to the participation or the alleged participation of the military leaders in the deportation of workers, I should like to refer to Affidavits Number 2001 to 2019, and that is all I should like to say to this point.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, have any of them been translated?
DR. LATERNSER: No, your Lordship. Mr. President, that is the misgiving which I had, for if the affidavits were translated -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, 2001, the substance of the affidavit is in the summary; the same in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2004-A and right on down to 2019. The substance of the affidavit is in the summary before us. It doesn't help us in the least to have it repeated by you.
DR. LATERNSER: Regarding the attitude held by the military leaders dealing with humanity and rules of war, I should like to refer to these Affidavits 505 to 514 and furthermore, in this connection I should like to refer to the documents which are found in my document 105 to 112, 2-C 119, pages 116 to 119, and to the publication and announcements found on pages 120 to 141 which applied and were valid for the various Theaters of War. tion according to which the German military leadership tried to bring about an incident between Hungary and Russia in that German areas with Soviet insignia attacked Hungarian territory. The High Tribunal will remember this assertion. Affidavit 531 refutes this through the officer who was the IC Officer with the Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe. with the murdering of air crews who had been shot down, I should like to point out that Affidavits 652 to 659 apply in this connection. 651 especially, shows that the Wehrmacht protected the airmen who had been shot down, protected them against the excited population. The fact that lynching was condemned and rejected may be seen from the Affidavits 518 and 519, 520-A. Two of these affidavits refer to the Chiefs of the General Staffs of the Air Forces, General Koller and General Kleipe. Particularly may be seen from Affidavit 520-A that General Kleipe took steps against civilians through official channels where they practiced violence against fliers.
521 is an affidavit deposed by Gallant, Lt. General Gallant, who testified that German fighter squadrons never received orders to carry on the fight when the hostile crow members had parachuted.
Affidavit 522 -
THE PRESIDENT: How do you think it helps the Tribunal for you to have made the statement which you have just made, when we have before us Affidavit Number 521, "General Gallant, 7746, no order was over given for the combatting of shot down crows." Now, do you really think that you have added anything to that?
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I wanted to be a little more explicit and have only tried to be a little more brief, and that is the reason why I am trying to be a little more brief, but I shall conclude in a moment, Mr. President. both of which show that rescue measures for enemy fliers are dealt with and are proved, and in conclusion, I should like to refer to Affidavits 3103, 3106. In both of these affidavits it is proved that the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau rescued the survivors of the British auxiliary cruiser Ravalpinsi, even, though the British cruiser had sent out an S.O.S. and was expecting to receive aid from their own naval forces, whereas our own battleships could have been cut off from the return. the spring of 1941 with the battle ships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and they deal also with an incident in 1943 where a German U-boat went to Spitzbergen to rescue the ship wrecked in that area where the U-boat was sent out for that purpose, and in this way I have concluded my submission of documentary evidence. lated, Documents 124, 933, 935, 939, 1501, 508-A, 508-B, 513 and 514-B, I should like to introduce these documents at this time.
21 Aug A LJG 22-1 Blakley of General Beckett, on the occasion of the anniversary of the 125 years' existence of the Military Academy of the War College, I should like in conclusion to state and refer to this fact where this speech shows and sets out the attitude of the military leaders.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, may it please the Tribunal, first of all I should like to submit an index to the High Tribunal, from which it can be seen that the document books, SA-1, A, B, 2, 3, and 4 have been submitted. I should like to submit these documents; and I shall do that when I have the originals at my disposal, the original text of the transcripts of the Commission sessions, affidavits, affidavits for the General SA, and especially twenty-one affidavits which have been translated, and an additional sixty-eight affidavits which have been deposed and dealt with before the Commission, 17,087 affidavits which have been dealt with in summary, then affidavits of the SA in so far as they deal with the members on the SA who have been taken over from the Steel Helmet organization, and their respective transcripts of the Commissions' sessions, and documents dealing with the mounted units, seventy-two affidavits, of which Nos. 1, 13, 21, 24, 29, 30, 64, 68, 70, 72 , and 75 have been translated. They an index which lists the individual affidavits in so far as they apply to the General SA, to the Steel Helmet organization, end to the mounted unit. I should like to submit this index to the High Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you submitted it?
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I shall submit this material as soon as I have received it; and at this point I reserve the right to call the attention of the High Tribunal to it. This will be just a matter of but a few minutes. In the first part of my presentation of documents, I shall submit documents which show what legal compulsion the National Socialist State put on the young generation so that its entrance into the various units 21 Aug A LJG 22-2 Blakley of the Party would be brought about and compelled.
the H. J. We see that when these young people reached the age of eighteen, they were taken into the Party and to the various branches of the Party and the SA. So that the youth would be taken in, decrees were given out to the various universities and institutes of higher learning so that the student bodies received certain authority. This may be seen from Document 147. This refers to Bavaria only but it applies to all of Germany. applies to the training of the students and their being brought into the community and their training for Wehrhaftigkeit is shown. Document 156 refers to this. On the basis of this decree, which applied to all institutes of higher learning in the Reich, all students were forced to go into the SA if they were not physically unfit. They did not have to report to the Hechschulamt but to the various SA Stuermen. This office was later dissolved. The institutes had to report to the local agencies. They remain in the SA; and the obligation to serve in the SA in this respect is referred to, as may be shown by Document 151. This is an excerpt from the monthly periodical of the B. Z., Catholic German Youth Organizations association. State. Therefore, in the year 1936, all students from the first until the third semester were taken over into the N. S. student body. Document SA-151 should be seen in this connection, that the National Socialist student body took over the obligation that all those who were studying would have to belong to the Party as well; and many, many German students in this way were once more incorporated into the SA. In Document 159-SA we see what results non-compliance with this directive had. SA or a similar formation was quite impossible.
21 Aug A LJG 21-3 Blakley coercion was taken. It is d early shown that the Prussian Ministry for Culture and Education said that service in the SA was the prerequisite for being admitted to teachers' examinations; and as Document SA-185 shows, in the year 1935 we can read in the official dispatch on page 56 that one of the conditions for becoming a teacher was membership and activity in an organization such as the SA. most strong with these who were economically the most weak. I should like to prove this by submitting Document SA-167. with the sixth grade were not exempt from this compulsion with activity in the N. S. P. and its various formations. This legal coercion in the intermediate schools is shown in my final plan: and I shall also deal with the compulsion applied to personnel replacements. servants had turned out to be something quite different. Document 173 is a commentary dealing with German Servants Law of the year 1937. It says on Page 67 of young German officials, it was required of the young Erman as far as his physical condition permits that he be a member of the SA or the SS. For the development which was started for the restoration of civil servants, they have as model in career other German officials, in Paragraph 2 of this directive. And we return to Document SA-178: Applicants must belong to the Party or one of its formations or must have belonged to them.
In this connection I should like to refer to Document SA-175; and as an exception I should like to deal at length with this document and quote it. "Finally each applicant for an official position will have to comply with the demand that he belong to the Party or one of its formations, for the official shall not only belong to the SA or to the SS but rather he must have been in the Hitler's Mouth as well. Through the law of the 1st of Dece the aims that outside of the home and school they be trained in ber, 1936, the Fuehrer has grouped the entire German students with the sphere of National Socialism in the Hitler Youth spiritually, ethically, and physically, and to have then trained for service to the communities.
arose from the various branches and were developed organically. This kind of newly setting up of the law is in accordance with the basic principle of National Socialist conduct of the State. It is not as in the case of a state which has just given out laws which sound pretty. It does not only apply because the organs of the state were not sufficient; but the organs of the Third Reich will set up the conditions necessary first and then the necessary corresponding law will be issued. after the other appeared and one directive after the other came out. Some of those directives are set out in my document book. Document S--171 shows that apprentices could be taken only from such formations as the SA and SS. In the year 1934, as Document Sa-183 shows, in order to receive any practical training, the condition was presupposed that a membership such as that in the SA existed; and the same applies, as may be shown by Document 165. This was true in the case of the Reich-Bahn, the railroads. young generation was forced into the N.S.D.A.P. through law and directives. In Document 180 it says, " An exceptional case gives me the occasion to point out once more to all organizations engaging in training courses for higher posts, as well as to the assistants and construction assistants already belonging to the administration that they should actively cooperate in the Party or its formations." This is not an exceptional case given by the Reichsminister of Transportation but rather it is typical for all districts dealing with all legal matters. We can see that every sphere of life will be coordinated in the same way.
presupposed membership in the NSDAP. That may also be seen from 191. satisfied with but a formal membership, but rather demanded an active membership in the Party or its formations, such as the SA. That the police did not make any exception either may be shown by SA document 196. Membership in the NSDAP or one of its formations was a condition of one's coming into the police. directives issued in 1994. the SA is required for the replacement of men. It is regrettable -
THE PRESIDENT: What is regrettable?
DR. BOEHM: Please:
THE PRESIDENT: Finish year sentence.
DR. BOEHM: Yes of course. I shall submit all the documents, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn new.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 22 August at 1000 hours).
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, may it please the Tribunal yesterday I submitted some of my documents which prove that many people were members of the SA through legal compulsion. In that connection I should like to contine my presentation of evidence. replacement in the Finance Offices. power, one witness, Dr. Meder, could not appear. We could not correspond with him, for it had been learned that he had been earmarked to be a witness in this proceeding. All of the attempts made by the Secretary of this High Tribunal have been in vain, and it has been impossible for us to bring this witness from the Russian Zone to Nurnberg. 1936 through 1944, fourteen --
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing): Dr. Boehm, we are hearing you now upon your documents; we are not hearing you upon the question of any difficulties there may have been in getting witnesses.
DR. BOEHM: The following are the schools as they existed in the Reich: Herrsching, Ilmenau, Meersburg, Woellerhof, Berlin, Moelln, Feldkirch, Leipa, Leitmeritz, Bodenbach, Thorn, Siegmaringen, and Boppard. the HJ and the SA. This is proven by documents 215 and 216, that membership in these organizations was required.
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing(: You are going a little bit too fast; your light is flickering.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President, I shall try to speak more slowly. October, 1933, it was set forth that the Health Pioneer Service, Hilfspionier Dienst, was to be taken over into the technical service of the SA. SA would be a reason for the termination of a labor contract, and under certain circumstances the answer was "yes".
A commentary is furnished by document 221, and I quote:
"The legal obligation under oath given out by the Fuehrer makes any leaving of the SA or any other association absolutely impossible. Only physical unfitness or other cogent reasons will permit your leaving the SA." mission of the highest SA leadership.
formations might have, as a result, the lack of employment, and this was set down in on official directive of the Justice Ministry. How cases did take place may be seen therefrom. Therefore, it is not strange that German citizens were appointed to agencies under compulsion. It existed, as may be shown from document SA 243, which is a note of the Holy See in Rome. It says, "The Holy See knows to what extent the freedom of taking decisions is limited in Germany today by the pressure forced upon nearly all the citizens; upon civil servants, employees, workmen, scholars, and even upon persons with the formerly free professions, through the economic conditions and anxiety for their mere existence."
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 243 in your document book?
DR. BOEHM: 143, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, 143. Go on.
DR. BOEHM: And in the third part of my presentation of evidence, I should like to refer to the evidence of a witness who does not have an especially leading position, and I shall turn to the subjective matter at hand. Under the date of 13 March 1946, paragraph 6, figure 3, applies here. "Wehrtuechtigkeit" is explained as "fitness for military service, and then it says, "The fitness for military service and being familiar with records of war and their use will teach the German man how to act in service. From SA document 224 we can see that the SA did not have anything to do with the Waffenschule (Military Training School), therefore,no military training was given. This may be proven by SA document 225 and 226. Excerpts from the magazine, "Der SA Fuehrer" says, "You can always further the ever present designation of the sphere of the tasks of the SA and of the Wehrmacht. The SA, in connection with the HJ looks to the spiritual and physical conditions." in an organization of a Wehr or of a Free Corps. It was denounced by Hitler. Document 229 shows that the members of the SA did not knew and could not know about the so-called criminality as the Prosecution claims, for on May 25, the Rhine Commission lifted the ban on the "German Freedom Party". As Hitler well knew, to lull the population, the order which he gave on 1 July 1934 in which he gave an entirely different background to the Roehm Putsch than the conditions which actually existed.
Mr. Jackson has accused the members of the various formations of the fact that they were not being accused of their entering into the organization, but rather, their remaining in the organization, for, after all, they knew the conditions of the concentration camps. In this connection I quote document 250 and I should like to submit it. It is a document from which we can see that one of the most prominent members of the Catholic Church in Munich, who had spent years in a concentration camps, deals with this question. From this we can see just exactly what injustices were taking place in the Third Reich.
"For eight years I collected, everything that could be learned of NationalSocialist laws, decrees, police measures, information about injustices, about acts of violence, infamy, crimes, blasphemies, persecution of the church, murder, etc. Hundreds of pages of the book "The Persecution of the Catholic Church" which was mentioned in the beginning and which was published in 1940 were taken from my collection. It will carry more weight if I give the assurance that, 'As far as atrocities in concentration camps and crimes in the occupied territories are concerned, I could practically learn and pass on nothing'." today? For one thing, he would not have had the sources of information that Newhauesler had. Now, I shall turn to my third part of the presentation in which the Prosecution asserts that the SA had been a terror organization. Just what the matter was in this connection may be seen from documents 285, 286 and 287. It may be clearly seen that the circular, quoted given out by the legal society, says that it was the KPD which incited the people against democracy; that it was the KPD which incited the people against the class struggle. As document 286 shows, this demand for the class struggle took place with the so-called idea of world revelation. In connection with this I should like to quote from document 132, that "the civil war was sponsored by the KPD", and it also refers to this matter of the civil war and the line of a terroristic conflict with the Leftist party.
1925 issued against Link and colleagues, we see that in this latent civil war the battle against the circles of the *SDAP and the Reichswehr was raised again and again. In this connection the establishment of the SA as a protection against the Leftists is shown in documents 311 end 314. Those are excerpts from the book "Mein Kampf" written by Hitler.
From SA document 300, an excerpt from Gisegius's book, "Until the Bitter End", we con see an explanation to the effect that pressure, even though there were demands for civil war, existed. We see an opinion of Hitler which Mr. Gisevius must admit, and this may be seen from document SA-301, that the National Socialist revolutionary demands found victims. In SA document 302, Mr. Gisevius admits that so far as the excesses took place, on the whole it was just a small clique that participated. I shall quote:
"They are the group staffs, their hired staff guard as well as that gang of roughnecks who are to be found in any place where mischief is in the wind." with Hitler and how he, as higher SA leader, tried to prevent a civil war. Therefore, again and again he demanded discipline. In this connection I would like to quote the directive of 30 March 1941, SA document 306. It says, verbatim, in figure 2, "Every party member, regardless of his position in the party, will be Immediately excluded from the party if he takes it into his head to violate consciously the regulations of the emergency decree or to tolerate or to approve of such offenses."
the position which document 316 shows was taken by the Party in the year 1933 in regard to the church. The Party and the church had reached a common ground of understanding, and we can see that the churches believed they could have confidence, and that the prohibitions and warnings were not necessary any longer.
Therefore, attending services was permitted also. formations of the Party and to work in all confidence. I shall quote:
"Consequently, we mean to devote our entire Catholic assets, Christian Conservative ideas and Christian progressive forces to the New Germany; build and enhance her spirit with our own, and not let ourselves be pushed aside or keep aside, but serve Germany with all our best resources wherever she needs us for her remaking. We are therefore determined to work actively, with every possible means and relations at our disposal, for the union of all Germans.
And for the same reason, we shall make it obligatory for all members to join the Wehrausbildung. We naturally also welcome the adhesion of a many Catholic students as possible to the paramilitary societies acknowledged by the state. We must consequently. with a spirit of self-sacrifice, in true Christian and German sentiment joyfully participate in the process of construction of the Reich." Session 115 of the Bavarian Diet of the 29th of April, 1931. This assurance read "On the contrary, our Fuehrer Adolf Hitler repeatedly stated that the Party it to be led in such a manner that no Roman Catholic as a faithful member of the National Socialist German Labor Party can come into conflict with his conscience."
see that same assurance when re read:
"The Rational Government sees in both of the Christian denominations high impo tant factors for the preservation of our national characteristics (Volkstums). It will respect the agreements concluded between them and the provinces (Laender): their right shall not be infringed........ The National Government will permit and safeguard the influence of the Christian denominations in school and education to which they are entitled. It is its concern to insure a sincere cooperation between Church and State." We may see therefore th we are not to figure on the fact that school wothout church would ensue.
SA Document 321 shows in a directive issued by the Fuehrer's Deputy on the 23 of January 1939: "In my directives of 11 November 1937 and 1 June 1938 I decided that the Party, its branches and associated organizations were to abstain from exer ting any influence in internal Church matters. to these Church and confessional discussions and I take again known the directives for all branches and associated organizations of the Party as follows."
From SA Document 326, we can see that in the year 1931 it wasn't thought of to exterminate Jews, as it unfortunately happened later on. from the SA into the Steel Helmet Organization. Will it please the Tribunal to turn to my Document Book which concerns itself with the organization Steel Helmet, Docum No. 1. It is a regular address given by the first leader of the "Stahlhelm".
THE PRESIDENT: Which book is it?
DR. BOEHM: Book Four, Mr. President . The first document is a regular addres made by the first leader of the Stahlhelm Organization, Frans Seldte, given on the 27th of November, 1933, and contains: "I, who am a member of no party, hereby decl my entry into the National Socialist German Workers, Party, because it is the mov ment that is to confine the whole German people into a single unit.
I therefore place myself, together with the Stahlhelm Association of Front 1* Soldiers which I founded, as a military unit complete in itself under the command of the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler. . . . ed by Hess, dated the first of May, 1933, from the German newspaper "Fraenkischer Kurier". From this document, we can see that the Steel Helmet Organization, despit its subordination to Hitler, was to remain a body quite independent within itself of the Stahlhelm Organization, the 28th of April, 1933. From the first few paragra we can see that the second unit of Duesterberg was not agreeable to keeping up th contact with the first leader Seldte. The second paragraph shows a direct dismiss of the second leader Duesterberg, even by way of telegram signed by Seldte. From the last paragraph of this document, I should like to quote the last sentence--fr the telgram sent on the same day: "I herewith take over the sole dictatorial lea ship of the Association." zation, of the third of May, 1933. The man is defining his attitude here, and it's that Seldte, because of the measures which were contrary to the regulations, was any longer considered the regular leader of the organization, but not considered Duesterberg.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, if I remember right, one of that witnesses who was heard here before the Tribunal, dealt with the entry of the Stahlhelm into the SA did he not?
DR, BOEHM: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you contradict him?
DR. BOEHM: No, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Surely these documents which relate to the introduction of the Stahlhelm into the SA can be dealt with quickly as a group. You can give us the numbers of the documents. The witness has given evidence that has not been cross exmained, and it isn't necessary to refer in detail to those documents which mere ly support the evidence of the witness.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President. Now, I shall turn to Document No. 6, from whi we can see that the Steel Helmet Association was to be put under the leadership of the SA. Then I shall turn to document No. 7. which is a decisive order given by Hitler, from which I should like to quote part of the end. Page one, paragraph six. "The entire Stahlhelm will be placed under the command of the Supreme SA Leadership and will be organized according to their directives."
Then I should like to refer to Document No. 8. from which we can see that the Wehrstahlhelm was to be taken over by the SA as well--the military Stahlhelm-and especially that the members of the Wehrstahlhelm can in the future remain as members of the Stahlhelm.
Now I shall turn to Document No. 9: Do that these expeditious incorporations of the Steel Helmet shall be carried through.
Documents 10 and 12 concern themselves with the members of the Wehrstahlhelm; that they are to have equal rights, and that they are to have a certain unity. emphasized here. Document 17 and Document 18 bring about the complete amalgamatio of the Steel Helmet Reserve.
Document 18-A: According to which all members who are over 45 years are incor porated into the SA Reserve. quote Paragraph two: "members of the former Stalhelmbund (members of the Steelhelmet Union) who were already transferred into SA-Reserve 1. cannot of their own volition sever their connection with SA-Reserve 1 for the sole purpose of joining other associations. One who, becauses of a physical defect, cannot discharge his duties or who for other reasons wishes to leave SA-Reserved 1.just make an applic tion for his withdrawal, stating the reasons for his request. Dual membership the SA-Reserve 1. and in the NS Veterans' Association is permitted provided the individual joined the former Stahlhelm before 30 January 1933."
tion of an incorporation of a Rheinish Steel Helmet Unit into an SA Reserve 1. Association in 1935. Heinrich Hildebrandt and Walter Kettner. I should like to quote one sentence on page 17: "The Stahlhelm knows war and therefore desires peace." that members of the Steel Helmet made the effort to leave the SA-Reserve 1. The documents which follow deal with those members of the Steel Helmet who did not agr with their introduction into the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: Wouldn't you tell us what the effect of all those documents is rather than reading us all through 30 documents? You have given us now about the Stahlhelm. Haven't you got any idea what they come to?
DR. BOEHM: With the submission of these documents I mean to show to the High Tribunal that the Steel Helmet Organization in no way was in agreement with one measures which were taken in the period of time in which it was introduced and taken over by the SA, that members of the Steel Helmet Organization tried to leave the SA, that they mat with difficulties, and that the ideal attitude held by the Steel Helmet was, in a large measure, quite different from that held by the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
DR. BOEHM: Then I should like to refer to a series of newspaper articles which are contained in Documents 32, 33, 35, 37, 39, 40, 41, 42, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 and 49. dealing with the conspiracy by the Steel Helmet against the SA in 1933 in Pommerania. Document 36 deals with the poster giving a threatening message against the National Socialist Veterans Associations.
Document 33, and I quote but briefly "The Steel Helmet Organization in Brunswick dissolved. 1350 men were arrested and interned." From the second paragraph in the center -
THE PRESIDENT: You have given us a long list of newspapers. What is the object of them? Is there anything which connects these together, makes them into a group?
DR. BOEHM: They all have a certain cohesion, a certain sense of this respect, Mr. President, for in this way I hope to prove that in various spots the Steel Helmets were dissolved, that members of the Steel Helmets were arrested and that they had difficulties for in the large part they disagreed with being taken into the SA and disagreed with the attitude held by the SA on political and spiritual matters.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand then that they are illustrations of the difficulties which the Steel Helmet Organization had with the SA; incidents.