Then I am going to read from Page 3 of the same affidavit, and I beg to be allowed to quote one example of the construction of a fairly high Gestapo department.
"Construction and composition of the Gestopo in Bruenn. In the spring of 1944, the personnel of the Gestapo direction in Bruenn comprised about 800 persons, distributed about as follows: Police administration officials, about 35; executive officials, criminal investigation officers, about 280; drivers, employees, about 110; frontier police officials, about 65; criminal investigation employees, interpreters, about 90; prison supervision personnel, about 80; female office personnel, about 90; other auxiliaries, about 50."
And then the second paragraph from there: "When the Gestapo direction in Bruenn was created, about 400 officials were transferred from offices in the Reich proper, without having been asked previously, to Bruennor the local offices depending from Bruenn. More than half of the auxiliary personnel was under emergency duty or duty obligation.
I shall then come to Affidavit No. 31, from which I shall read on Page 2, at the beginning. "At the end of 1944 the Gestapo consisted of approximately the following: Administrative officers, 3,000; executary officers; 15,500; employees and workmen, among them, 9,000 called up for emergency service, 13,500. Grand total, 32,000. These members of the Gestapo may be considered to be the permanent ones insofar as they made up the normal staff. In addition to these persons, there were the following groups: Datached from the Waffen-SS, 3,500; taken over from the Secret Field Police, 5,500; taken over from themilitary defense and the OKW, 5,000; personnel of the former military-letter-censorship, 7,500; members of the customs-frontier guard, 45,000." The heading is "Professional career", and I shall read the last quotation.
"1 April 1933, transfer, that is, ordered to join the Secret State Police Department of Berlin. I received at that time a letter reading as follows:
'By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Reich Minister of the Interior, you are hereby transferred as of --- to the Secret Police Office.'
"I had no say in the matter of this transfer. The attempt of my superior in the Police Presidency to save me from this transfer, failed."
frontier police to the statepolice, and I come to Affidavit No. 22, from which I beg to be allowed to read the following: This is page 2 of the German original.
"The members of the frontier police were taken over from the Bavarian frontier police, which existed already before 1933, into the frontier police of the Gestapo. Later on, after the annexation of Austria, the Austrian frontier police were added, as well. The incorporation of the frontier police officials was not voluntary, neither in Bavaria nor in Austria. On the contrary, the officials were transferred as a group to the Gestapo when unification was being brought about in the Reich and after the annexation of Austria."
"The officials could not object against their transfer to the Gestapo on grounds of the instructions concerning the right of officials. They had to obey to this transfer."
"The tasks of the frontier police were strictly laid down by law. The tasks were mainly supervision of passanger-traffic across the frontier, the execution of police instructions with regard to passports, supervision of goods traffic in connection with the custom authorities. Political tasks, like those of the Gestapo in a stricter sense, were not the business of the frontier police."
I skip the next sentence and go on to quote:
"I know from my own experience that the tasks of the frontier police and also its activity did not change after 1933."
Then I shall read thelast paragraph:
"I must still draw attention to the fact that the same tasks as those of the frontier police were executed at many small frontier passages by members of the Reich finance administration, customs administration. In this the customs officials were bound by exactly the same instructions as members of the frontier police."
Numbers 23, 24, 35 and 29 deal with the question of secrecy. No department within the state police knew anything about orders issued by some other department. Even private conversation was forbiddena. Considering the strictest secrecy orders, even very few persons of the RSHA who were immediately concerned with certain matters knew of individual measures which were introduced.
From No.35 I read the following; and this is on page 8 of the original the second paragraph:
"Most important of all for factual discussions were accordingly the personal conferences between Office chief and Group chief or their deputies on one hand, and, as until now, Office chief and his department heads on the other."
Then I come to the beginning of the following paragraph:
"The same must have been applied to the reports concerning mass shootings in the East, as quoted by the Prosecution. It is now known in every case which officials may have had any knowledge of such reports besides the RFSS, CDS, and some individual Chiefs of Offices. If this could perhaps have been the case for the immediately competent Group chief and department heads, it certainly is not a fact that, as asserted by the prosecution, the bulk of the officials of Office IV, or, even more, of the Reich Main Security Office or of the Offices throughout the Reich have had any knowledge." from Page 3 of the original:
"Upon my assuming office in the RSHA in August 1941, Mueller declared to me that in his sphere of activity he placed great value upon the observing of stipulations for secrecy and that he would proceed without pity with the sharpest measures against infringement."
And then the last sentence of the same paragraph:--
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard about this secrecy over and over again, not only in your affidavits, but throughout the trial. Surely it isn't necessary to read theparagraphs of these affidavits about secrecy.
We quite understand that everybody alleges that.
DR. MERKEL: Very well. Then Gestapo No. 25 contains news with reference to the USA Document No. 219, the transfer of 35 Lithuanians willing to work into armament firms attached to concentration camps.
I shall quote from the third paragraph, third sentence: "In another case, the order by the chief of the Security Police and the SD of 17 December 1942, according to which at least 35,000 persons capable of working were to be transported to concentration camps to work in the armament plants there, was not carried out by many Gestapo offices. These persons were to be recruited from the prisoners of the labor training camps of the Stapo offices. This was incompatible with the customs followed until then and was interpreted as arbitrary measures by many office chiefs known to me. At conferences in the RSHA, I learnt that the office was unable to fulfil the request of the Reichsfuehrer SS to provide prisoners, because the Stapo leaders did not provide prisoners from their labor training camps but hid behind pretexts."
The composition, the summary of affidavit No. 36 states that in the spring of 1944, the bulk of the members of the department of intelligence in the OKW had been forcibly transferred by the Gestapo.
Affidavit No. 40 states that the order for the evacuation of Jews from Hessen in 1942, had come directly from, the Chief of the Security Police and not from Department IV of the RSEA. As reasons for the evacuation of labor service, he was quoted. crucifixes should be removed from schools. I shall read the second sentence on the first pares: "Approximately in 1942, Gauleiter Wagner, in his capacity of the Bavarian Minister of Culture, ordered that the crucifixes were to be removed from all Bavarian schools."
I skip the following sentence. "It is carried out with the greatest difficulties on the part of the population so that service departments of the party who were dealing with the carrying out of that order were calling upon the district commander and the district police offices for assistance. Since the affair had a political character, the district officials approached the State police department in Nurnberg, with the request for advice or assistance. As an expert for church matters, I stated to the first district official approaching me that the Gestapo in Nurnberg would not help with this decree unless they were forced and that he would not receive any assistance from the State police for the carrying out of the order.
Even in the case of further instructions to the political officials, the State police would not introduce any such police measures."
"I then reported the matter to the president of the police at once, who shared my point of view absolutely. In agreement with him, I then informed the remaining district officials concerned, by telephone, to the effect that they should act correspondingly."
The content of affidavit No. 43 said that upon objections being raised by the commander on the question of the Security police, the intentions of the Landrat to the effect that the Protestant church there should be changed to a cinema, was stopped."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Merkel. You heard what I said to Dr. Servatius, did you not?
DR. MERKEL: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't the state of affairs exactly the same in your case, that all these affidavits have been summarized in the transcript before the Commission, which we have got before us in writing and therefore what you are doing is simply cumulative?
DR. MERKEL: I had merely thought that in order to support these summaries in the record, short extracts from the affidavits -
THE PRESIDENT: It is no use telling me what you merely thought. You heard what I said to Dr. Servatius, that the Tribunal did not want to hear the same thing over again which was done in the transcript before the Commissioners. It was all gone into perfectly dear with Dr. Servatius and it was explained to him, in your hearing, that we cannot carry all these things in our minds and that it is useless to go over them twice unless there is some matter of very great importance which you want to draw our attention to before you make your final speech; and I said that before and I don't want to have to say it again.
DR. MERKEL: In this case, if I may, I shall refer to the summaries in the protocols taken before the Commission, with reference to the following numbers up to 91 and then I hope to be allowed to assume that the Tribunal will take cognizance of the contents of these summaries and I therefore shall merely have to refer to summaries of affidavits if the Tribunal wishes me to do so.
I can read the summary contained in that affidavits as far as I know, that has not been translated. affidavits which do not appear on the protocol before the Commission.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
DR. MERKEL: Regarding the question of membership being enforced, 566 affidavits are available which state that when the Secret State Police was created, the requirements for personnel in their majority were met from the old political police. Regarding coercion being applied for membership of compulsory-serving men, there are 427 statements and affidavits which deal with the same subject. the Gestapo is being accused. between the Gestapo and the Reich and the Security in Occupied Territories, statements are contained in 39 affidavits. treatment in the atrocities committed in concentration camps and a few officials who had visited the concentration camps could not notice any irregularities there; released detainees did not speak about concentration camps in a different manner. excesses of the 9th of November, had taken place. was forbidden members of the Gestapo. affidavits knew nothing about the existence of the Einsatz Groups or of atrocities supposedly committed by them.
218 affidavits state that the decree "Kugel" (Bullet) was unknown to the majority of the State Police officials and that recaptured prisoners of war were surrendered to the Armed Forces departments.
parachute had been returned to the Air Force by the Gestapo and 23 affidavits mention that the decree of protective custody was a matter for the RSHA. SS and Police Court perpetrations during and off duty.
with that, Mr. President, I have come to the end of my submission of evidence by means of documents.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: May it please the Tribunal, I have just two short comments to make concerning documents which were presented here as to which I think he wasin error and I respectfully request the Tribunal to turn to his Gestapo Exhibit No. 33.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Dr. Merkel has cited this document as evidence that the executions in concentration camps were ordered by the WVHA but I would respectfully invite the attention of the Tribunal to the sentence in the center on the first page and I quote: "For this measure, permission of the Chief of the Security Police must be obtained."
THE PRESIDENT: Regarding the sentence, Commander Harris, the Tribunal thinks that this is a matter which can be dealt with in argument and not at this stage.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, the Tribunal will hear the case of the S.D. Is counsel for the S.D. not present ?
DR. STAHMER: The defendant counsel is being fetched and he will be here in a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal , have you made any effort to get--to obtain the presence of this counsel ? Have you communicated with him ?
THE MARSHAL: We got in touch with his office, and we are looking for the defense counsel right now.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn new until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock.
THE MARSHALL OF THE COURT: May it please the Tribunal: The Defendant Hess is absent.
DR. DIX: I beg the Tribunal to listen to me for a very brief moment. This is with reference to a possible precautionary application regarding evidence. I repeat it is a precautionary application which will only be operative under certain conditions which I am about to describe to you. I beg the Tribunal to remember that the witness Gisevius talked about this same subject when he testified as a witness for Dr. Schacht. An application to hear Lieutenant General Halder was withdrawn by me at an earlier stage, whereas the hearing of Mrs Struenk as a witness had been granted by the Tribunal. Though after hearing Witness Gisevius and Witness Halder, I decided in order to save time to withdraw my application to hear this witness as I considered it to be cumulative. Now these two Witnesses Mrs Struenk and Colonel Halder will no longer be cumulative if, and this is by no means my own opinion, the Tribunal should adept the view that the testimony of Witness Gisevius as far as he had spoken in favor of Dr. Schacht is so. Witness Gisevius; nor is it my task to establish the credibility of Witness Gisevius's testimony. It is merely my duty to furnish evidence on behalf of my client, Dr. Schacht. It is my own personal thought, and as far as that is concerned, I am speaking against my application, that the testimony of Gisevius with reference to Dr. Schacht, that is to saw the testimony regarding the purpose of armament and Schacht's part in the resistance movement, has in no way be shaken by the testimony of Witness Brauchitsch which was to the effect that he did not know Witness Gisevius at all. These subjects of evidence are not merely proved by Gisevius; but as far as the interior attitude of the regime is concerned, it has been proved by affidavits as well as Witness Halder.
As to the beginning of the resistance mocement and the contact with Kluege, that has been proved by the affidavit of Schmidt.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Dix, I think you must make up your mind whether you want to make an application or not. If you want to make an application, you must make it in writing. The Tribunal is not inclined to entertain possible precautionary applications which are not in writing.
DR. DIX: I intend to leave it to the decision of the Tribunal. I am merely making a suggestion because it is my personal view, having had Gisevius' testimony -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has made a rule that applications must be in writing. That rule has been applied to every other cousel appearing on behalf of the Defendants. The Tribunal thinks that rule should be adhered to by you, too. Therefore, if you wish to make an application, you should make it in writing.
DR. DIX: Very well, then I should like very much to make my application in writing. Does the Tribunal wish that I should use up another two minutes by giving the reasons for the aim of my application?
THE PRESIDENT: I do not see any reason for departing from the rule.
DR. DIX: Very well. In that case I shall make my application in writing.
THE PRESIDENT: I have two announcements to make. In the first place, with reference to the application of Dr. Seidl, who does not appear to be present, the Tribunal has had a report dated the 17th of August, 1946, on the condition of the Defendant Hess from Captain G. M. Gilbert, the prison psychologist. This report will be communicated to the Defendant Hess's counsel, to the Prosecution and to the Press. The Tribunal will not call for any further report upon the Defendant Hess at the present time.
Next, with reference to the application by Dr. Stahmer dated the 14th of August, 1946, the Tribunal will treat this application as an exceptional case, and they will allow the Defendant Goering to be recalled to the witness box to deal with the evidence upon experiments which was given after the Defendant Goering gave his evidence, and upon no other subject.
Tribunal will hear the defendant Goering in the witness box now.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You understand, defendant, of course, that you are still under oath?
A Yes, of course, Mr. President. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q Were you the President of the Reich Research Council?
Q When and by whomwas the Reich Research Council created? 1943 by me. physics, technology, medicine and philosophy should be summarized and that the various institutes of the state, the Emperor Wilhelm Institute, the institutes of the universities, the economic research departments, which were all carrying out research work concurrently should be drawn together in this Reich Research Council Commissions were formed according to the subject they were dealing with. They were centralized and it was their task that research should not be carried on on parall lines but that research should be carried out jointly. chemistry, that that was to be centralized and carried out correctly. deputy. Right in the foreground, of course, in the case of all this reasearch work was its application to the necessities of war and for that purpose special men were appointed also. This Reich Research Council carried out not hundreds but thousands of various tasks of research and since I personally am, of course, not an expert, I wasmerely the chairman of the whole institution in order to lend it my authority an also in order to furnish the necessary funds as one of my foremost tasks in that connection. The tasks I had were headed by Reichsmarshal of the German Reich and President of the Reich Research Council. rate of the Airforce have?
forces, to take care of the hygiene and health of the armed forces, to take care of all the work which fitted into that sphere. Council? Council in order to explain the results of the hygiene and medical research work or respectively communicate to them their wishes regarding the orders which were to be dealt with, the tasks which were to be carried out by the Reich Research Council. the Airforce tasks at any time for the carrying out of medical experiments on detainees in concentration camps, Dachau or any other camps? single letter which could possibly be signed by me and that not a single man could possibly appear to state that I myself have at any time, in any shape of form, given a single task or a single order or even a hint in that respect.
Q Did you have knowledge of the fact that Dr. Rascher or a chief medical officer of the Airforce, Dr. Feldt, had carried out medical experiments on detainees in the concentration camp of Dachau? ments, Dr. Rascher was a medical officer of the Airforce Reserve and apparently later on, as appears from the correspondence, he did not succeed with his experiments. He resigned from the Airforce and became a medical officer in the SS. I myself have never seen the man. I have never known or met the man, just as the second name which you have mentioned is strange to me and I do not even know whether he was an active, serving medical officer or a medical officer in the Reserve. to any department that sub-pressure chambers should be used on detainees in concentration camps?
A I have already told you that I have not done so. It is natural that if anybody bad come to me, shall we say from the Medical Inspectorate or from the Reich Research Council, and had told me that it would be serving a purpose to carry out research shall we say regarding the subject of cancer research or typhoid research but of course I would have said that that is a very praiseworthy enterprise.
But then I cannot, possibly connect that fact with the idea that a human being should be used in an incorrect manner in connection with it and if someone tells me that at present the experiments are going on with low pressure chambers that I cannot possibly understand by that or imagine through it that detainees have been used or are being used in that connection, all the more so considering that I knew that every aviator was being experimented with in the low pressure chamber in order to find out his flying abilities before he could pass his examination. receive the order from you to carry out experiments for making sea water drinkabl
A I have never heard of the document. It would have interested me extraordinarily because repeatedly we aviators, amongst ourselves, have discussed this point, not regarding making sea water drinkable but with reference to the question of how a flyer who would be adrift in the sea in a lifeboat could obtain drinkable water at all and it was always said amongst flyersat the time that there was only one possibility; that they should have fishing tackle aboard their lifeboats so that they could catch fish and they were given the primitive instruction to squeez out the fish since that was the only drinkable water obtainable under such circumstances. That is why that point is particularly clear in my memory. a conference in the Air Ministry. Had you ordered that conference or were you informed about it afterward?
A No. Currently and daily conferences of all types and of all departments wire taking place in the Air ministry and they could not possibly communicate to me daily or report it to me at Headquarters. supposed to have taken place at Dachau. Were they ordered by you or did you gain knowledge of them? working rooms at their disposal at Dachau at certain times. Had you learned of these facts?
Q Do you know the medical officer of the Airforce Reserve, Dr. Deck? experiments should be carried out which are supposed to have beencarried out by a certain Professor Hausteiner, a medical officer of the Airforce Reserve at Dachau, for which he is supposed to have used detainees? carried out these low freezing experiments. Hausteiner is just as unknown to me as are the other names. There w re thousands of medical officers in the Reserve of the Airforce.
Q Did you ever meet Dr. Haagen, Professor at the University of Strassburg, who was the chief staff medical officer or was supposed to have been the chief medical staff officer of the Airforce and you had given himordersat any time to make experiments in order to defeat typhoid?
AAs I have gathered from the documents also, Dr. Haagen was a medical officer in the Airforce Reserve and advisory hygeine expert not of the Airforce generally but of the Air Fleet, that is a unit of the Airforce. I do not know him. I have never at any time given him an order and he obviously could be heard as to that at any time. since it would have astonished me somewhat, since I myself had been inoculated against typhoid three times and I certainly did not believe that further research in that sphere was taking place. to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, dated May 19, 1944, states that Professor Haagen had been ordered by the Reichsmarshal, the President of the Reich Research Council, to carry out such experiments?
A This can he explained as follows: firstly, as I said earlier, the letter heading for all such orders which in any way were connected with the Reich Research was worded, the Reich liar shall of the German Reich, signature, the president of the Reich Research Council. That was the custom in Germany: that first of all the personal title was quoted and not the department, the office. It was, for instance, the Reich Minister of Finance, and not the Reich Ministry of Finance. Secondly, Witness Sievers himself has testified here with reference to a rather large figure that ten thousand orders were issued under my name without that I myself could have known of these orders. That, of course, would have been quite impossible Certainly it was known in the whole of Germany that hardly over has a name been used as much as mine. If anyone were to achieve anything at all, he quite happily and gaily said that the Reichsmarschall wished it, or he would like to see this or that done or this or that ordered. which prevented the misuse of my name with reference towards such matters. medical experiments on human beings?
THE PRESIDENT: I think the defendant has already told us what his basic attitude was.
DR. STAHMER: Very well, Mr. President. Quite. Then with reference to this subject I shall have no further questions. I shallmerely have to refer myself to further questions as soon as the witness Sievers has appeared here -- I beg your pardon, the witness Holder, from whom a statement has been submitted to the Tribunal, which has not been introduced in evidence, so that I cannot at this moment define my attitude with reference to it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal doesn't know what you are talking about because the Tribunal has not yet allowed the witness Helder to be called; but youmust conclude your examination of the defendant now.
DR. STAHMER: In that case then I believe that I have been misunderstood, Mr.President. It is the witness Schreiber we are concerned with. From Witness Schreiber a statement has been announced in this court room; and the Tribunal had announced its decision with reference to it, namely, that Schreiber should appear as a witness here; and I shall have to reserve myself the right, therefore -
THE PRESIDENT: The interpretation came to us as Helder.
DR. STAHMER: Quite.
THE PRESIDENT: It came to us as bolder with reference to Schreiber.
DR. STAHMER: No, no, Schreiber is the name; Professor Schreiber, I meant. The Russian, the Russian statement.
THE PRESIDENT: If this Schreiber is brought here in accordance with the Tribunal's order, then no doubt you will have the opportunity of cross examining. Dr. Stahmer, if you want to put any questions to the defendant Goering, you must put them now because the Tribunal doesn't propose to have the defendant recalled again, should the witness Dr. Schreiber be produced. Therefore, if you have any questions to put to the defendant on the subject which Dr. Schreiber might be called to deal with, you must out them now.
Q. Did you ever receive an order from Hitler or a special authority in order to carry out the preparatory work for bacteriological warfare?
A. Never at any time did 1 receive such an authority or such an order as it is mentioned in the letter of the General Medical Officer Schreiber addressed to the Soviet Government.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that your medical officers were working on such preparatory work?
A. No, and this letter isn't mentioning the word medical officers. It is merely talking about the -
THE PRESIDENT: One minute. Will you just wait one minute. Go on, Dr. Stahmer. You will confine yourself to the matters with which you have dealt in your written application with reference to Dr. Schreiber.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that the working community for bacteriological warfare existed?
A. That such a working community existed is a fact I had no knowledge of. What I did know, however, was that as a matter of course defensive measures were being worked on against bacteriological warfare. It must not be forgotten that to a certain extent such a type of warfare had been commenced against us by dropping insects, damaging the potatoes with potato beetles; and measures had been prepared in order to be ready for such warfare on one part; and then possibly, though I do not know this for certain, preparations may have been made for the event that the opponents might carry out such bacteriological warfare, so that we would have an answer ready.
Q. Do you know Professor Blommen?
A. No.
Q. Then in that case you didn't give him the order to prepare such measures?
A. No, that isn't possible.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution desire to ask any questions? BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE:
Q. Defendant I first want to know how much of the witness Sievers' letter you agree with or disagree with. Do you agree that the directions for carrying out the spotten fever experiments were in the hands of the Director of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strassbourg, Professor Dr. Haagen, major in the Medical Corps, and consulting hygienist to an air fleet? Is Sievers right in saying that?
A. That I have no means of checking. It is possible.
Q. I see. Now, are you disputing that Dr. Haagen was -- I quote -
"commissioned with this task by the Reichsmarschall, the President of the Reich Research Council," or do you again say that you have no means of checking that?
A. That I have said quite clearly. I know nothing whatever about it; and it is interesting, if you are speaking of the Reichsmarschall and the President of the Reich Research Council, that that means that the heading was that under which all such research orders were coming nut.
Q. To put it quite bluntly, your defense to this is the rubber-stamp defense that you signature on the orders was merely a rubber-stamp for the equivalent signature as President of the Reich Research Council? Is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?
A. No. That I am not saying by any means. If my signature has been given, then it had its full value; but it has not been given; it has not been explained. But as I hove told you earlier, this was the heading, the letter heading of the orders as they were signed. These orders were signed by some sub-department which was dealing with these matters. When and where I have signed a letter, I alone assume the responsibility for it. It would be only too easy for the prosecution to put such a letter before me or to ask Mr. Haagen about it.