19 Aug M LJG Daniels 5-3 Gestapo Exhibit No. 39 deals with the same topic.
42, 43, 44 and 45, as proof of the fact that concentration camps were not under the Gestapo, but rather the Reich Administrative Office. 47. Number 46 is a questionnaire ire addressed to August Eigruber of the 27th of March 1946; and number 47 is a questionnaire addressed to Friedrich Karl von Eberstein, dated, the 26th of March, 1946. Both have already been submitted by the defense counsel for the defendant Kaltenbrunner. workers for the Reich area, and there is proof that this was the solo responsibility of the General Plenipotentiary for Labor. Exhibits 54 to 57. are matters contained in 58 and 59.
Gestapo Exhibit No. 60 is the well-known decree about increased or intensified interrogations. Heydrich to Goering of the 11th of November, 1938, and it shows that the Gestapo took stops against the excesses of the night of the 9th to the 10th of November, 1938. testimony given by Dr. Mildner of the 22nd of June, 1945. It refers to the deportation of the Jews, and the subordination of the concentration camps under the SS Administrative and Economic Main office.
Mr. President, this will conclude my documentary evidence. submit, first of all, the German copies of the transcript taken.
before the Commission, which I did not have up until now. I 19 Aug M LJG Daniels 5-4 should like to submit them to the Tribunal.
They are copies of the transcript of the 9th, 19th and 27th of July, and the 3rd of August. They are contained, in summary fern, in Gestapo Exhibits 1 through 91.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Merkel, it isn't necessary for you to submit copies of the transcript of the Commission's evidence; it comes to us directly from the Commission, so you need not trouble about that.
DR. MERKEL: Very well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: It is suggested to me that perhaps it would be better for you to crier it in evidence and give it a number in your list of numbers.
DR. MERKEL: Then I shall give the transcript of the 9th of July the number Gestapo Exhibit No. 63; the 19th of July shall be Exhibit No. 64; the 27th of July, 65; and the 3rd of August, Gestapo Exhibit No. 36. affidavits has been prepared in the following way so that time can be saved, Twenty-two out of the 91 have been translated. their subject matter, and I shall read from these affidavits which have been translated some few brief passages which seen of especial importance to me. I would like to read these into the record.
Se far as the rest of the affidavits are concerned. I should like to have the High Tribunal take judicial notice of them. affidavit is at hand composed of 1255 special, single affidavits This summary is in line with the resolution of the Court of the 5th of July, 1946. It was made out by former members of the Gestapo who are now interned, and the authenticity of this summary was affirmed by me. I ask your permission to read this brief summary.
19 Aug M LJG Daniels 5-5 numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 13, 71, and 90. They deal with the occupied countries. the leadership of Dannecker. From 1940 to 1942, they were carried out by the German military authorities, in agreement with the Ambassadors, and the German military commander decreed the rest. was done by the Field Commanders. In May of 1942 the Secret Field Police were, perforce, taken into the SIPO. Police directives, up until April of 1942, lay in the hands of the French police and of the German military police units. ask permission to read the following. Page 1, paragraph 2.
"From October 1940 until October 1941, 1 was chief of the outside office of the Security Police and of the Security Service in Dijon, and from December 1943 up to the retreat from France I was Commander of the Security Police and of Security Service in Dijon.
"Composition of the Security Police Command Dijon:
"There were about ten Gestapo members; 13 criminal investigation, Kripo, members; and 69 men called up for emergency service (Notdienstverpflichtete).
"As can be seen from the list, of the 92 male members of my Command at the time, ten only belonged to the Gestapo. Hereby it must be taken into account that of these 10 Gestapo members, the larger part did not volunteer for the Gestapo but were transferred or ordered to it, or came to it for some other reason, without these concerned having been able to have any influence on the decision or to resist it."
"The Security Police Command Dijon must be regarded as an average command in France, for its strength as well as for its 19 Aug M LJG Daniels 5-6 composition.
On page 3 of this affidavit, after the heading "Jewish Questions", I shall read a brief paragraph which follows. It reads:
"Recaptured prisoners of war were not even once brought to a concentration camp or shot by the Dijon office, but immediately turned over to the nearest competent army office."
THE PRESIDENT: Where are you reading now?
DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, this is taken from Affidavit No. 2, at page 3 of the German original, and it follows after the brief heading, "Jewish Question". It is the first paragraph on the page.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. MERKEL: It begins with the words "Recaptured prisoners of wars".
I shall skip the next four paragraphs and shall continue:
"There were no special Security-police or Security service (SD) prisons in the Dijon area. Besides, never were arrestees in any prisons executed by orders of the Security Police (Sipo) or Security Service (SD), to prevent their liberation by allied troops."
Dealing with affidavit Number 3. May I read the following? It is in the beginning of the second paragraph.
"In September 1941 I was transferred from the infantry to the GFP (Secret Field Police), and without my having anything to do with it, in June 1942 I was commanded to the office of the commander of the Sipo and the SD in Poitiers."
Next paragraph, "The Sipo command at Poitiers was composed of about 5 officials of the Stapo and about 5 officials of the Kripo; about 80 former members of the GFP, who, the same as I, were released jointly from the Wehrmacht and were engaged for war emergency service."
On page 2 of this affidavit, under the heading "Command Order", I should like to read the following.
"This order is known to me only in its basic idea through Wehrmacht reports, press, and so forth." I shall omit the next sentence. "This order was not carried out in the Poitier sphere. I an mention two examples:
"In June 1942 in a joint action of the Sipo and the Wehrmacht, a camp with 40 English parachute troops was raided whereby during the short fight only 3 Englishmen were killed, while those left were taken prisoner and given over to the Wehrmacht, although it was established that the group had carried out acts of sabotage on a railroad three kilometers from Poiters, and more than 200 kilometers behind the invasion line, and had provided French partisans with arms and had organized them."
THE PRESIDENT: What does that mean, "200 kilometers behind the invasion line" in reference to June, 1942?
DR. MERKEL: That is the town of Portiers which is about 200 kilometers behind the invasion line.
THE PRESIDENT: There was no invasion in 1942.
DR. MERKEL: I beg your pardon. It is June 1944. That is a typographical error, your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on.
DR. MERKEL: "Likewise, in March 1944, in the same territory, 5 American airmen who were met wearing civilian clothes and in company of 40 armed partisans, were taken prisoners and over to the Luftwaffe."
The next point I should like to summarize. Those are affidavits numbered 5, 6, 7, 8, and 14. Mr. President, in this connection, I beg your pardon that the numbers are not in consecutive order, and this may be explained through the fact that these affidavits, as far as they come from camps, were received at various intervals. The affidavits deposed by the witnesses here in the local jail were received one at a time, therefore it is inevitable that these affidavits are not numbered consecutively. I should like to repeat the numbers: 5, 6, 7, 8, and 14. These affidavits prove that the Gestapo was not concerned with the excesses of the 9th and 10th of November, 1938, and that it was not only not participating, but took stops against it. In numerous cases, it undertook arrests of the members of the SA and the SD. The 20,000 Jews who were arrested were once more released after their immigration papers had been established.
The numbers 15 through 21; 21 through 34, 72, 73, 76, 84, and 85 comprise a group which deals with the following. The offices of the Security Police and SD in occupied countries were not made up of voluntary members, administrative officials, or technical officials of the Gestapo. The Gestapo had nothing to do with the executive work, and in accordance with the strictest secrecy which was preserved, they could not Know anything about detail and emergency workers and other employees cannot be accused and considered as co-perpetrators. Now members were not brought in voluntarily, but rather, as a result of transfers and special detail.
Now, I shall read from affidavit number 15. I should like to read the following into the record. It is the second page, second paragraph.
"In May, 1919, I was assigned to the Political Police, newly established as Dept. VI with the Police Headquarters in Munich."
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Are you reading affidavit number 15?
DR. MERKEL: 15, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You say the second page, the second paragraph, and you begin something about 1919. I do not see that.
DR. MERKEL: No, Mr. President, it's the first page, second paragraph, right at the beginning of the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: On the first page, it begins on January 1913.
DR. MERKEL: "On 1 January 1913 I was employed as policeman in Munich". However, I omitted that, and the third sentence begins with, "In 1933, I, with almost all other members of this office, was transferred to the Bavarian Political Police which, with almost the same personnel setup, was again transferred to the Secret State Police in Munich. The entire personnel was screened politically by the SD whereby a large part of the civil servants and employees of the former political department of the Police Headquarters were judged negative."
"While I was in charge of the office during the time from 1933 to 1939 I always pointed out to the officials under me that it was forbidden to mistreat the prisoners. I did not hear of any of my officials laying violent hands upon a prisoner." paragraph.
"I learned that persons frequently pretended to be Gestapo officials. These persons also committed criminal acts. Because of the increase of such incidents, Himmler issued a decree according to which all persons who impersonated an official of the Gestapo were to be put into a concentration camp." 4th paragraph. It can be found in the first three sentences.
"On the basis of my activity with the Secret State-Police Office in Berlin I can confirm that the Secret State Police Office was made up of almost exclusively the former officials of the old system."
THE PRESIDENTL You are reading 16 are you? Which page?
DR. MERKEL: The paragraph from which I was reading is on page 1. The paragraph begins with the fact that "In the year 1935" and the 4th sentence, "On the basis of my activity. . ."
THE PRESIDENT: "Without being consulted I was in 1935 ordered and transferred. . ."
DR. MERKEL: Yes, yes, Mr. President, that's the paragraph. And a little bit farther down, the 4th sentence, "On the basis of my activity with the Secret State-Police Office in Berlin." Then I shall read the following paragraph.
"Just like the Secret state-Police Office in Berlin, so too did the large majority of the working-force of the State-Police offices throughout the Reich consist of old professional police officials who had been transferred from the old 1-A sections of the criminal police and from the remaining branches of the police to the State Police, or were ordered there to, without their wishes being taken into consideration."
Then I skip a paragraph, "Transfers back were out of the question because an order existed which absolutely prohibited it. If, in spite of this requests were handed in for transfer back or transfer from the Gestapo to another branch of the police, such requests were usually answered with penal transfer. Such requests were not made because the Gestapo was considered a criminal organization, but mostly for purely personal reasons."
From the affidavit number 18 I should like to read the following: Page 3 of the German original, arabic number 1, under the heading "Officers."
"There were about 50-60 officers' positions in the whole Sipo".
Then, arabic figure 2, "Administrative Civil Servants."
"The administrative civil servants were engaged exclusively in office work of the entire police-administration. They were strictly separated from the executive officials by different regulations of their career, by different titles, and different duty passes. They especially had nothing to do with the executive work. A chance in their position and activity never took place."
Arabic 3, "Executive officials".
"They executed the real tasks of the Gestapo which were laid down by law.
Thereby, it should be noted, however, that a number of these officials also were engaged in pure office work as is the case in every office."
Arabic 4, "Civilian employees".
"The civilian employees were mainly clerks and other office personnel and other personnel for subordinate work."
Arabic 5, "Emergency-Conscripts". Here I shall read only the end of this paragraph.
"But if an emergency conscript came to the Gestapo and not to any other governmental office or to another private enterprise, against that no right whatsoever to complain existed."
I shall omit two paragraphs and shall read the third one which follows:
"I would estimate that the Gestapo had about 10,000 emergency conscripts by the end of 1944."
Arabic 6, "Men Detailed from the Waffen SS".
"In order to guarantee the requirements of personnel for the Gestapo, members of the Waffen-SS who, due to wounds and other physical handicaps could not be utilized at the front any more, were detailed to the Gestapo in increasing numbers during the war."
THE PRESIDENT: I think we had better break off now.
(A short recess was taken.)
7, to the members of the former Secret Field Police. "With the transfer of the tasks of the Secret Field Police to the Security Police, at first in the occupied territories in the West, the members of the Secret Field Police were also taken over into the SIPO respectively -- the Gestapo were taken over. The transfer was done by order, so that none of the transferred men could have do anything against it." And then the final papers of that -- altogether approximately 5,500 men were taken over. And again to the first sentence of the following paragraph: "Particular importance was attached to secrecy in the case of the Gestapo." I skip the following sentence, and I call attention in particular to the Fuehrer order from January, 1940, which was extended immediately by the Reichsfuehrer SS to include the security police. "Secrecy was pronounced as the supreme duty of all members of the security police, and thereby of the Gestapo. These security regulations were announced in certain periods to all members of the individual offices, and the announcement taken down by protocol. In that connection, it was pointed out time and again that any offences against the security regulations would beseverely dealt with, and, in certain cases, even be punishable by death."
From Affidavit No. 20, I beg to be allowed to read as follows: On page one, second paragraph: "The members of the administration service for the lower, middle and higher service were taken, by orders of the Gestapo and from 1937 by the Security Police Main Office, from the officials of all authorities ,ainly, however, from the police administration and were transferred to the Security Police or to the Gestapo".
From No. 30, I shall read the following: First from the one under the heading "Construction and composition of the Gestapo in Bielefeld.". "When the Gestapo was founded, in 1934, about eight criminal investigation officials and two police administration officials of the criminal investigation police of other cities were transferred to the Bielefeld Gestapo. The transfer was made without previous consent of the concerned officials."
Then I am going to read from Page 3 of the same affidavit, and I beg to be allowed to quote one example of the construction of a fairly high Gestapo department.
"Construction and composition of the Gestopo in Bruenn. In the spring of 1944, the personnel of the Gestapo direction in Bruenn comprised about 800 persons, distributed about as follows: Police administration officials, about 35; executive officials, criminal investigation officers, about 280; drivers, employees, about 110; frontier police officials, about 65; criminal investigation employees, interpreters, about 90; prison supervision personnel, about 80; female office personnel, about 90; other auxiliaries, about 50."
And then the second paragraph from there: "When the Gestapo direction in Bruenn was created, about 400 officials were transferred from offices in the Reich proper, without having been asked previously, to Bruennor the local offices depending from Bruenn. More than half of the auxiliary personnel was under emergency duty or duty obligation.
I shall then come to Affidavit No. 31, from which I shall read on Page 2, at the beginning. "At the end of 1944 the Gestapo consisted of approximately the following: Administrative officers, 3,000; executary officers; 15,500; employees and workmen, among them, 9,000 called up for emergency service, 13,500. Grand total, 32,000. These members of the Gestapo may be considered to be the permanent ones insofar as they made up the normal staff. In addition to these persons, there were the following groups: Datached from the Waffen-SS, 3,500; taken over from the Secret Field Police, 5,500; taken over from themilitary defense and the OKW, 5,000; personnel of the former military-letter-censorship, 7,500; members of the customs-frontier guard, 45,000." The heading is "Professional career", and I shall read the last quotation.
"1 April 1933, transfer, that is, ordered to join the Secret State Police Department of Berlin. I received at that time a letter reading as follows:
'By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Reich Minister of the Interior, you are hereby transferred as of --- to the Secret Police Office.'
"I had no say in the matter of this transfer. The attempt of my superior in the Police Presidency to save me from this transfer, failed."
frontier police to the statepolice, and I come to Affidavit No. 22, from which I beg to be allowed to read the following: This is page 2 of the German original.
"The members of the frontier police were taken over from the Bavarian frontier police, which existed already before 1933, into the frontier police of the Gestapo. Later on, after the annexation of Austria, the Austrian frontier police were added, as well. The incorporation of the frontier police officials was not voluntary, neither in Bavaria nor in Austria. On the contrary, the officials were transferred as a group to the Gestapo when unification was being brought about in the Reich and after the annexation of Austria."
"The officials could not object against their transfer to the Gestapo on grounds of the instructions concerning the right of officials. They had to obey to this transfer."
"The tasks of the frontier police were strictly laid down by law. The tasks were mainly supervision of passanger-traffic across the frontier, the execution of police instructions with regard to passports, supervision of goods traffic in connection with the custom authorities. Political tasks, like those of the Gestapo in a stricter sense, were not the business of the frontier police."
I skip the next sentence and go on to quote:
"I know from my own experience that the tasks of the frontier police and also its activity did not change after 1933."
Then I shall read thelast paragraph:
"I must still draw attention to the fact that the same tasks as those of the frontier police were executed at many small frontier passages by members of the Reich finance administration, customs administration. In this the customs officials were bound by exactly the same instructions as members of the frontier police."
Numbers 23, 24, 35 and 29 deal with the question of secrecy. No department within the state police knew anything about orders issued by some other department. Even private conversation was forbiddena. Considering the strictest secrecy orders, even very few persons of the RSHA who were immediately concerned with certain matters knew of individual measures which were introduced.
From No.35 I read the following; and this is on page 8 of the original the second paragraph:
"Most important of all for factual discussions were accordingly the personal conferences between Office chief and Group chief or their deputies on one hand, and, as until now, Office chief and his department heads on the other."
Then I come to the beginning of the following paragraph:
"The same must have been applied to the reports concerning mass shootings in the East, as quoted by the Prosecution. It is now known in every case which officials may have had any knowledge of such reports besides the RFSS, CDS, and some individual Chiefs of Offices. If this could perhaps have been the case for the immediately competent Group chief and department heads, it certainly is not a fact that, as asserted by the prosecution, the bulk of the officials of Office IV, or, even more, of the Reich Main Security Office or of the Offices throughout the Reich have had any knowledge." from Page 3 of the original:
"Upon my assuming office in the RSHA in August 1941, Mueller declared to me that in his sphere of activity he placed great value upon the observing of stipulations for secrecy and that he would proceed without pity with the sharpest measures against infringement."
And then the last sentence of the same paragraph:--
THE PRESIDENT: We have heard about this secrecy over and over again, not only in your affidavits, but throughout the trial. Surely it isn't necessary to read theparagraphs of these affidavits about secrecy.
We quite understand that everybody alleges that.
DR. MERKEL: Very well. Then Gestapo No. 25 contains news with reference to the USA Document No. 219, the transfer of 35 Lithuanians willing to work into armament firms attached to concentration camps.
I shall quote from the third paragraph, third sentence: "In another case, the order by the chief of the Security Police and the SD of 17 December 1942, according to which at least 35,000 persons capable of working were to be transported to concentration camps to work in the armament plants there, was not carried out by many Gestapo offices. These persons were to be recruited from the prisoners of the labor training camps of the Stapo offices. This was incompatible with the customs followed until then and was interpreted as arbitrary measures by many office chiefs known to me. At conferences in the RSHA, I learnt that the office was unable to fulfil the request of the Reichsfuehrer SS to provide prisoners, because the Stapo leaders did not provide prisoners from their labor training camps but hid behind pretexts."
The composition, the summary of affidavit No. 36 states that in the spring of 1944, the bulk of the members of the department of intelligence in the OKW had been forcibly transferred by the Gestapo.
Affidavit No. 40 states that the order for the evacuation of Jews from Hessen in 1942, had come directly from, the Chief of the Security Police and not from Department IV of the RSEA. As reasons for the evacuation of labor service, he was quoted. crucifixes should be removed from schools. I shall read the second sentence on the first pares: "Approximately in 1942, Gauleiter Wagner, in his capacity of the Bavarian Minister of Culture, ordered that the crucifixes were to be removed from all Bavarian schools."
I skip the following sentence. "It is carried out with the greatest difficulties on the part of the population so that service departments of the party who were dealing with the carrying out of that order were calling upon the district commander and the district police offices for assistance. Since the affair had a political character, the district officials approached the State police department in Nurnberg, with the request for advice or assistance. As an expert for church matters, I stated to the first district official approaching me that the Gestapo in Nurnberg would not help with this decree unless they were forced and that he would not receive any assistance from the State police for the carrying out of the order.
Even in the case of further instructions to the political officials, the State police would not introduce any such police measures."
"I then reported the matter to the president of the police at once, who shared my point of view absolutely. In agreement with him, I then informed the remaining district officials concerned, by telephone, to the effect that they should act correspondingly."
The content of affidavit No. 43 said that upon objections being raised by the commander on the question of the Security police, the intentions of the Landrat to the effect that the Protestant church there should be changed to a cinema, was stopped."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Merkel. You heard what I said to Dr. Servatius, did you not?
DR. MERKEL: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't the state of affairs exactly the same in your case, that all these affidavits have been summarized in the transcript before the Commission, which we have got before us in writing and therefore what you are doing is simply cumulative?
DR. MERKEL: I had merely thought that in order to support these summaries in the record, short extracts from the affidavits -
THE PRESIDENT: It is no use telling me what you merely thought. You heard what I said to Dr. Servatius, that the Tribunal did not want to hear the same thing over again which was done in the transcript before the Commissioners. It was all gone into perfectly dear with Dr. Servatius and it was explained to him, in your hearing, that we cannot carry all these things in our minds and that it is useless to go over them twice unless there is some matter of very great importance which you want to draw our attention to before you make your final speech; and I said that before and I don't want to have to say it again.
DR. MERKEL: In this case, if I may, I shall refer to the summaries in the protocols taken before the Commission, with reference to the following numbers up to 91 and then I hope to be allowed to assume that the Tribunal will take cognizance of the contents of these summaries and I therefore shall merely have to refer to summaries of affidavits if the Tribunal wishes me to do so.
I can read the summary contained in that affidavits as far as I know, that has not been translated. affidavits which do not appear on the protocol before the Commission.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
DR. MERKEL: Regarding the question of membership being enforced, 566 affidavits are available which state that when the Secret State Police was created, the requirements for personnel in their majority were met from the old political police. Regarding coercion being applied for membership of compulsory-serving men, there are 427 statements and affidavits which deal with the same subject. the Gestapo is being accused. between the Gestapo and the Reich and the Security in Occupied Territories, statements are contained in 39 affidavits. treatment in the atrocities committed in concentration camps and a few officials who had visited the concentration camps could not notice any irregularities there; released detainees did not speak about concentration camps in a different manner. excesses of the 9th of November, had taken place. was forbidden members of the Gestapo. affidavits knew nothing about the existence of the Einsatz Groups or of atrocities supposedly committed by them.
218 affidavits state that the decree "Kugel" (Bullet) was unknown to the majority of the State Police officials and that recaptured prisoners of war were surrendered to the Armed Forces departments.
parachute had been returned to the Air Force by the Gestapo and 23 affidavits mention that the decree of protective custody was a matter for the RSHA. SS and Police Court perpetrations during and off duty.
with that, Mr. President, I have come to the end of my submission of evidence by means of documents.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: May it please the Tribunal, I have just two short comments to make concerning documents which were presented here as to which I think he wasin error and I respectfully request the Tribunal to turn to his Gestapo Exhibit No. 33.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Dr. Merkel has cited this document as evidence that the executions in concentration camps were ordered by the WVHA but I would respectfully invite the attention of the Tribunal to the sentence in the center on the first page and I quote: "For this measure, permission of the Chief of the Security Police must be obtained."
THE PRESIDENT: Regarding the sentence, Commander Harris, the Tribunal thinks that this is a matter which can be dealt with in argument and not at this stage.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, the Tribunal will hear the case of the S.D. Is counsel for the S.D. not present ?
DR. STAHMER: The defendant counsel is being fetched and he will be here in a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal , have you made any effort to get--to obtain the presence of this counsel ? Have you communicated with him ?
THE MARSHAL: We got in touch with his office, and we are looking for the defense counsel right now.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn new until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock.
THE MARSHALL OF THE COURT: May it please the Tribunal: The Defendant Hess is absent.
DR. DIX: I beg the Tribunal to listen to me for a very brief moment. This is with reference to a possible precautionary application regarding evidence. I repeat it is a precautionary application which will only be operative under certain conditions which I am about to describe to you. I beg the Tribunal to remember that the witness Gisevius talked about this same subject when he testified as a witness for Dr. Schacht. An application to hear Lieutenant General Halder was withdrawn by me at an earlier stage, whereas the hearing of Mrs Struenk as a witness had been granted by the Tribunal. Though after hearing Witness Gisevius and Witness Halder, I decided in order to save time to withdraw my application to hear this witness as I considered it to be cumulative. Now these two Witnesses Mrs Struenk and Colonel Halder will no longer be cumulative if, and this is by no means my own opinion, the Tribunal should adept the view that the testimony of Witness Gisevius as far as he had spoken in favor of Dr. Schacht is so. Witness Gisevius; nor is it my task to establish the credibility of Witness Gisevius's testimony. It is merely my duty to furnish evidence on behalf of my client, Dr. Schacht. It is my own personal thought, and as far as that is concerned, I am speaking against my application, that the testimony of Gisevius with reference to Dr. Schacht, that is to saw the testimony regarding the purpose of armament and Schacht's part in the resistance movement, has in no way be shaken by the testimony of Witness Brauchitsch which was to the effect that he did not know Witness Gisevius at all. These subjects of evidence are not merely proved by Gisevius; but as far as the interior attitude of the regime is concerned, it has been proved by affidavits as well as Witness Halder.