A, No. That was completely out of the question. May I continue ?
Q. That is quite sufficient. Dr. Hoegner, further asserts in his affidavit that on a night in November, 1923, luddendorf was the one who really wanted to unleash a national war. What do you know about that ?
A. I beg your pardon, but something like that can only be asserted by a fanatic. General Luddendorf, after the First World War, wanted a -
THE PRESIDENT: It is quite sufficient, if he says no to your question
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. Do you remember that in the Gewerkschaftshaus, Trade Union House, in Munich weapons were found in 1933 ?
A. Yes.
Q. And now my last question. What was the relationship of the SA to Himmler ?
A. The relationship of Staff Chief Lutze to Himmler was concededly poor and the relationship of the SA to the person of the former Reichsfuehrer SS was also poor. In conclusion may I make a few remarks and give but a very brief explanation, Your Lordship ?
DR. BOEHM: And to which question did you want to make a few remarks ?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, you can make, of course, in your speech, what arguments you like, but unless it is in answer to some question from you, I don't think this witness ought to say anything upon his own, unless there is something he wants to clear up in his evidence.
DR. BOEHM: The witness wanted to clarify some questions which I had put to him, Your Honor, as far as I understood him.
THE PRESIDENT: What question do you want to clarify ?
THE WITNESS: The question of whether the SA committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, may I ask that the witness be permitted to give this explanation ? I should be very grateful.
THE WITNESS: I shall be very brief, your Lordship. At the conclusion of the questions put to me under my oath I should like to assure you once again that we of the SA did not do anything bad. We did not want a were and we did not prepare for a war. We of the SA, of the leadership and of the organization itself, did only these things which, in other countries, are expected of the men of the nation as their ethical or moral duty, which Mr. Truman or Mr. Stalin or the statesmen of England and France expect of their men, namely, to do everything to protect the home country and to maintain peace. We of the SA did not commit any crimes against humanity, either. Neither the leadership decreed their, nor did they tolerate them, nor could the organization be guilty of any of them. If isolated misdeeds were committed, the evil doers were punished and this is our will, that they shall be brought to a just punishment. We, therefore, do not ask for grace. We do not ask for sympathy under the guise of our local need. We ask only for justice, for nothing else, for cur conscience is clean. We acted as patriots of the highest order -- however, patriots. If that is stamped as criminals, then we were criminals.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. PANNENBECKER (Counsel for defendant Frick): Mr. President, one document has not come in for Frick. One is still outstanding, a document which was granted to me before the end of the evidence, but which has not come in. May I present it at this time, Mr. President ? It is an answer to a questionaire by Dr. Conrad in Berlin, who deals with the attitude of the Ministry of the Interior to the church question. This document shall have the number Frick Exhibit No. 15. I believe I may refer to this document without reading it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Now, then, counsel for the Defendant Funk wanted to recall the defendant, did he not ? Yes, well, will you do that now ?
DR. STAHMER(Counsel for defendant Goering): Mr. President, on the 14th of August I applied for a bit of evidence which has not been decided upon, and I believe there hasn't been any time. It is not possible for me to see whether this application for evidence will be considered if I cannot refer to it at the present stage. It deals with incidents of the session of the 9th of August in the cross examination of the witness Sievers and the questions which were raised at that time by the British Prosecution. medical experiments which were made with concentration camp inmates, and we are concerned with the experiments of making sea water drinkable in order to find a cure for spotted fever, and finally, for experiments with "under coding". These experiments allegedly were carried out on concentration camp inmates, and it was asserted that all of this took place at the direction of -- or rather, with the approval of, Goering. Now I should like to prove that Goering did not decree these experiments. Therefore they were no carried on under his instructions, and that he did not even have knowledge of these incidents. Schroeder, Colonel General of the air force, who is in English or British internment. I also ask to be granted permission to have the defendant Goering himself as a witness, for it is un certain whether it is possible to bring to witness Schroeder here on time. Therefore I should like to ask the high Tribunal's permission to have Goering recalled to the witness stand so that I can question him in regard to these questions which I have just mentioned.
THE PRESIDENT: Give the Tribunal a reference to the transcript where the defendant Goering testified upon the question of experiments.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I tried to do that. I shall submit that subsequently. I have not received the transcript. These documents were submitted in the afternoon session of the 9th of August. I have not had the individual numbers, but I believe some time today I will be able to submit them/
THE PRESIDENT: You are misunderstanding me. What I asked you for was a reference to the transcript where the defendant Goering himself was questioned, as I imagine he was questioned, about experiments generally.
DR. STAHMER: Yes, Mr. President. In general he has been examined on this matter, and the witness Milch also testified in general. And I think I can tell the high Tribunal where to find this passage. General Milch was heard on this matter on the 8th of March -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Stahmer ?
DR. STAHMER: General Milch was heard on this matter on the 8th of March 1946, page 5,577 of the German transcript.
But I should like to call the attention of the high Tribunal, Mr. President, that Milch was heard only on a fragment of these questions and gave but a general opinion. But now specific accusations have been raised, which were unknown to me at the time and as to which I could examine neither the defendant Goering nor the witness Milch.
THE PRESIDENT: What I wanted to know in addition to General Milch was, at what page in the transcript the defendant Goering himself dealt with the matter, either in the examination in chief or in cross examination or reexamination.
DR. STAHMER: At the moment I can't tell you, Mr. President, but I shall check on it and tell you immediately. Yes, I shall do that, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider the matter. Have the Prosecution any observations they wish to make with reference to the application on behalf of the defendant Goering ?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, this is the first time that I had heard of the application, so I am speaking from memory.
My Lord, my recollection is that the Prosecution put in certain correspondence about the experiments. That was put in cross examination by Mr. Justice Jackson to Marshall Milch, so that when the defendant Goering went into the witness box the question of his connection with the experiments was a matter that was known to him and with which he could deal. check as to how far he did deal with it, and if there is any further point arising on that, perhaps I could mention it to the Tribunal later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you do that when we rise, or just before we rise today ?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: Certainly, My Lord. I will have it looked into at once.
THE PRESIDENT: And perhaps Dr. Stahmer could let us have a reference to the pages in the transcript at one o'clock, or even two o'clock. One o'clock would be preferrable.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: That would help a let.
DR. SAUTER(Counsel for defendant Funk): With the permission of the high Tribunal, I should like to call the defendant Funk into the witness box.
WALTER FUNK took the stand and testified as follows :
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, you understand you are still under oath ?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Funk, can you understand me?
Q Dr. Funk, today I must examine you about this affidavit submitted by the prosecution last week, deposed by S. S. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, dealing with concentration camps. You yourself have been asked about this pattern of questions already on the 7th of May here in this courtroom. In this examination of the 7th of May, in response to a question, you stated that at that time you had seen this Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl once, and I quote from the transcript of the Ton of day, "I saw him once at the bank, together with Mr. Puhl, the Vice President of the Bank, and some of the other gentlemen of the Directorate were having lunch. I passed through the room and I saw him sitting there." You said you did not talk these matters over with Gruppenfuehrer Pohl of the SS. You said, "It is completely now that these things took place." That is a literal translation of your testimony of the 7th of May. Now, Dr. Funk, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, in his affidavit number 4045-PS, which was submitted to the Court on the 5th of May, stated that he had talked to you twice. Do you remember the other conversation you had with him, a conversation which you did not mention at that time? Can you recall that now, Dr. Funk? And what can you tell us in regard to this other conversation regarding the statement of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl? In this connection, I am referring to that conversation about which Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl stated that he had talked with you on Himmler's instructions, so that you, as Reich Minister of Economy, when textiles were being alloted for uniforms, that you would give preferred treatment to the SS? In any event, with every possible effort, I cannot remember a conversation like that with Pohl, and many things speak against this fact. First of all, I did not concern myself with matters or questions of a specific nature like that, such as the allocation of textiles, textile quotas to a branch of the service, and it was never my habit to deal with matters like that. Point two, it was my habit to mate conversations like that always in the presence of my State Secretary, or in the presence of the competent Chief of the Department and expert, and particularly if the conversation was involved with a person whom I never before had known.
The question of the supplying of textiles from concentration camps, that was a question that I never concerned myself with at all. These things were only in the sphere of command of the Reich Commissar, for old material and its use. That was an office outside my Ministry. The office quite logically worked together with the textile experts of the Ministry. According to my conviction, matters took their course this way. The material collected in the concentration camps, the scrap material found there, and old textile, this was to go directly to the factories which were to reprocess material of this sort. Therefore, I am of the conviction that the officials of the Ministry of Economy knew nothing about the supplying of this material from concentration camps, for previously these materials were contacted by the Economy Branch of the SS under the leadership of Pohl. Up to the day of this trial, I did not even know that Pohl headed the concentration camps and were under his subordination or jurisdiction. The connection between the Economical Department of the SS and the concentration camps was something I knew nothing about. This supplying of old materials relatively and with the entire production, did not play quite the decisive role, so that I would be bothered with it at all. But let us suppose that Mr. Pohl visited me. My memory is not quite, what it used to be and particularly after the many, many years of illness that I have passed through, so that a visit of that kind, which Pohl stated only lasted a few minutes, might have slipped my memory. If Pohl expressed a wish of Himmler like that to me, then I most certainly would have turned this matter over to my State Secretary so that he would handle it and do the necessary thing. Quite tremendously is the assertion of Pohl that he allegedly said something to me about the dead Jews; Or where these orders or shipments came in the year 1941 perhaps 1942, of which allegedly took place! The fact that Pohl should tell me, who he was seeing for the first time, that he would tell me a secret which was guarded most jealously up to the end, that I say is incredible. But he had no reason to call on me and speak of the dead Jews.
If he said to me which shipments from the SS will arrive it was something quite plausible to me, for in the large domain of the SS, where hundreds of thousands of men had been interned, and were being clothed by the State, and that much of the mid material and --
THE PRESIDENT: That is going into arguments rather than giving testimony of facts. me! I am calling it a lie: I am calling it a libel: Up to the day of this trial, no soul told me anything about that, not a soul. That Jews were being murdered in concentration camps, a report like that I would not let rest. Immediately, I would have turned it over to my superior, the Plenipotentiary of the 4 Year Plan, and I would have told him.
Q That is one point, witness. That is one point. I believe it has been cleared up sufficiently with your testimony. Now I will turn to page 2. Already in your testimony, in May, I believe, on the 6th of May, you testified that SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl and you met once, that you met him at the Reichsbank at Lunch in the canteen of the Bank. The witness Pohl, in his affidavit, 4045-PS, refers to this matter, and he says everything that he originally discussed with the Vice President of the Bank, and you know nothing about. It would be a waste of time to read it. In the transcript of the 5th of August, this is to be found, "After we, that is, Gruppenfuehrer Pohl and Vice President of the Bank, Puhl, and several others, had inspected the various valuables in the bank, in the Reichsbank vaults, we went upstairs to a room and had lunch with the Reichsbank President, Funk. The lunch was served after the inspection. Funk, and Puhl, the Vice President, and several other gentlemen of the staff of Pohl, were there. 10 or 12 people were present."
the vaults, that is, the vaults of the Reichsbank.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, we have all heard this evidence the other do Can't you put the circumstances of it to him and ask him whether it is true? I mean, it is not necessary to read it all?
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I am only reading those two sentences which apply to the defendant. There were two sentences and I am emitting everything else anyway, but naturally, I have to read these two sentences to him so he would Know exactly what I am referring to. Everything I said up to now is in this one sentence. And now, the second sentence follows, which is very brief. It reads as follows:
"On this occasion it was mentioned that a part of the valuables which we had inpsected had come from concentration camps." End of quotation, and the end of the second sentence. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you have hear what Pohl, the Gruppenfuehrer, assorts in his affidavit. Is it correct or isn't it correct? You can answer the question will a yes or no, and if it is no, then you may give a brief explanation.
A. That he talked with me on this occasion, at this breakfast, that I do recall. That he discussed the valuables deposited be the SS, that I do not recall. That I know with certainty -- that he did not talk with me about those valuables about which I didn't know at all, therefore, about that part a the things which had been brought in by the SS were-not to be brought in to be used by the Reichsbank but rather, to be used by the Reichs Finance Ministry, that is gold, jewelry, and what other things there may have been. These thing I never know about, I never saw these things, and about these things Pohl did not talk about to me because if he had 1 would have known about them and would have inquired about them. It is quite out of the question that in the presence of twelve other persons, perhaps three or four of them directors of the Reichsbank, and in the presence of the servants, that he would have discussed matter like this. That things like that had come from concentration camps and possible might have come from Jews who might have been murdered, or even that the SS had collected foreign exchange and had deposited things like that and that the had come from the concentration camps, that I did know.
I discussed these matters with Pohl and that was the first premise that I had of this entirely terrifying matter about which Himmler, at that time, had asked me to have stored in the Reichsbank. I personally asked Himmler if the valuables were to be used for the legal Reichsbank business and whether I could dispose of then and use them but I did not know anything about the other things, I did not so them, and I did not know their origin.
Q. Witness, I should like to put one final question to you so that every thing will be entirely clear. When did you learn that, for instance, the glasses and their rims, gold teeth, and so forth, in addition to gold coins and foreign exchange, that hateful things like that had come in your Reichsbank? when did you first learn that?
A. Here, in this proceeding.
Q. You say that under oath? Can you say that with a clear conscience?
A. Yes, I can swear to that. please, Dr. Sauter .....
THE PRESIDENT: He has already given this evidence.
DR. SAUTER: It was just a very brief question.
THE WITNESS: Of course, what went on in the SS, that I did not know. I never saw that, but other things besides gold could have been, in that connection .....
DR. SAUTER: You have already said that. Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have no further questions. BY MR. DODD:
Q. You now tell us that you did know about the gold deposits and the jewelry coming in from the concentration camps, is that so?
A. I did not know anything about it.
Q. You did not know anything about it? I must have misunderstood you. I thought you just told the Tribunal that you did know that these gold depositand other things were turned over to you through Himmler?
A. No, I did not know anything about that. I said only that what was contained in the deposits made by the SS I did not know and that the SS did have deposits in the Reichsbank I did know, but what was contained in them I did not know. I never saw them and no one ever told me about the nature and the origin and the size of these things.
Q. Well, you recall when you testified here before the Tribunal, an 7 May, that I asked you if you knew anything about the gold deposits from she concentration camps, and this testimony is on page 9104 of the record. out said, at that time, that Mr. Puhl told you that the SS had delivered a old deposit and "he also told me, and he said this in a some what ironical manner, 'it would be best if we don't try to ascertain what this deposit is'.' This was your own testimony, in this courtroom, in the same chair, as before the same Tribunal, just a month or two ago. Now, you had same knowledge that there was something sinister about these deposits when Director Puhl told you that it would be best if you didn't try to ascertain what this deposit was. What do you say to that this morning? What is the fact of the matter?
A. This testimony was already corrected by me insofar as discussions about these are concerned. For instance, these conversations between Himmler and myself in which Himmler told me that the SS had confiscated considerable assets and valuables, and, among other things, assets such as gold foreign coins, foreign bank notes, valuable papers, and many other things. Whereupon I asked him -- and I testify to this as well -- to see to it that someone be charged with this matter who could discuss this matter with Vice-President Pohl. Himmler sent Pohl to Puhl after I had told Puhl abort my conversation with Himmler. When those deposits arrived, when the first deposits were made, Puhl told me that the SS had made deposits and on that occasion he perhaps made a sarcastic remark, "who knows what is contained in these depostis?", and that is in accord with what have testified to here.
Q. You also told us, on that same day, and in the next answer to the very next question, you made this statement to the Tribunal, "And I personally assumed, since they are always speaking about a gold deposit, that this gold consisted of gold coins or other foreign currency or possibly small bars of gold or something similar which had been brought in from the inmates of the concentration camps."
You had some knowledge of the source and the origin of those deposits. You knew where they were coming from, and that is all we want to establish here, and you had a pretty good idea, to put it mildly.
A. That didn't have to come from the concentration camps alone.
Q. There is no sense in arguing about it at all. All I am trying to clarify is the fact that you told the Tribunal yourself that you assumed it came from the inmates of the concentration camps. Now, this is your own testimony.
Not just the gold. The foreign exchange, the bank notes, and everything which was earmarked for the legal affairs of the Reichsbank, that these things could come from the concentration camps as well, that was clear to me, for the inmates of the concentration camps had to be relieved of these things, just as every other person, and only of these other things I did not know about -- those things which were stored in the Reichsbank I did not know about the agreements between Himmler and .....
Q. Let's see whether you know about it or not. Mr. Elwyn Jones, in the presentation of document 4042-PS here in court, told us about the action "Reinhardt". You heard that document discussed here, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. That document is before the Tribunal, and in that document it is shown that over 100,047,000 reichsmarks were deposited either in the Reichsbank or in the Ministry of Economics. That is just from this action alone. Are you telling the Tribunal that this amount of over 100,000,000 Reichsmarks was deposited in your bank or credits to that amount were placed in the deposit of your bank and you did not know about it? You would have to know about that, wouldn't you ?
A. Will you please repeat it? The sum, I don't think it came through.
Q. We don't need to got it down to exact figures, it was over 100,000,000.
A. 1,000,000?
Q. No, 100,000,000.
A. 100,000,000 marks, that is completely out of the question. It is absurd.
Q. But the document here shows it.
A. That's quite absurd. Where were these 100,000,000 marks to come from? That's absurd.
Q. I am glad you are enjoying this, but let's get on with this matter. This document of the SS men further says that over $500,000, that is American dollars, was also deposited. Wouldn't you have to know about that money being deposited in your bank? That's quite a lot of money too, in dollars, and in Germany in 1943 I assume.
A. Yes, of course, certainly. But I don't recall that anything like that was ever reported to me. About 100,000,000 -- that would have been a sum which would be diseased with me I admit, but it was not discussed with me.
Q. You know, this document goes on and there is listed coins from every country in the world in various amounts. You know that, don't you ? You know that that money was being turned over to the Reichsbank, five hundred thousand dollars, francs of all kinds. Now, you certainly had to know that it was coming into your bank in 1934, and in such an amount. You must know from whence it came. What do you say about that ?
A. That the SS, on the strength of the action which I have mentioned deposited foreign exchange and bank notes and gold coins and whatever else there might have been, these things were charged to the Reichsbank and that I knew. The size of the shipments coming in, that was not reported to me. At any rate, I do not remember it and from where they came I do not know at all. And I am quite surprised that the sum is so high.
Q. Yes, so are we. The important thing is that as the head of that banks Mr. Witness, don't you agree that it is impossible that you did not know about these sums of money ? You were just something more of an or name surely ? So far I do not think that you have given any kind of a satisfactory answer. Is your answer that you do not remember or that you absolute don't know ? Or is it both ?
A. The amount mentioned first of 100,000, 000 marks that I consider absolutely absured. Secondly, the other sum, the second amount of $500,0 that I consider possible. It is quite within the sphere of possibility that amounts like that were taken away from people in the nature of these actions -- that is, people who were taken into concentration camps.
Q. Well, it isn't possible that they were taken away when they were being taken to the concentration camps.
A. No, I did not know about that. I know that in normal ways, they were taken away, but the amount as such .....
Q. I am not going to go through these documents, but you have probably read about the thousands of glasses and fountain pens that were taken ? You knew about them, and about the Ministry of Economics taking them, didn't you ?
A. No, I didn't
Q. You have not heard about the 1,000,000 wagons of textiles that these SS men said had been shipped and were the clothing of the dead Jews and other inmates who had been exterminated ? Didn't you have to know something about this as minister of economics ?
A. No, I did not know about these things and I may explain here before this Court that they applied to the Reichs Commissioner for the use of old material and that came from the various concentration camps to the factories for scrap material. Not a single person told me anything about it.
Q. Well .....
A. I would like to say one more word in connection with the Reichsbank matter. Here I am confronted with the fact that these millions of valuables German pearls and so forth, were deposited in the Reichsbank. Perhaps these things were not deposited with the Reichsbank, because the Reichsbank was only a clearing housem and for that reason no one told me any of the details. But, I assume the responsibility. I carry the responsibility for everything that happened in the Reichsbank, together with the directors. If, however, officials were suspicious about thess things which were happening, these things on the basis of criminal acts which had taken place, then it was their. duty to tell me quite frankly and cell me quite clearly. And I remember, that in a conversation with Mr. Wilhelm, he said, when we discussed this matter, that a serious responsibility, or incriminations, that it would be a heavy incrimination for the official. At that time when I knew nothing about these matters, how should I ever arrive at the conclusion that they were......
Q. I do not know how long you are going on with this, but far as I am concerned, I have everything that I need. Really, Mr. President, I do not think this is being very helpful to the Tribunal. I just want to ask one or two more questions before luncheon. Did you ever have any trouble with Oswald Pohl, the Finance Minister, over the fact that the clothing came from dead Jews? Or did you have any trouble with him in your life, any private difficulty ?
A. As far as I remember, I only talked with Pohl once and perhaps he visit me twice.
Q. The answer is no, is that right ?
A. No.
Q. Now, you have seen this affidavit which goes into detail of when he saw you, where you were, who were present, how many people were present, even to the number of people in the dining room. Do you know of any reason why he should fabricate testimony like that ? Could you know why he should lie about you in this terrible way ? Could you give us any suggestion, any motive any cause for him to lie ?
A. In my opinion, there is a purely psychological reason with people who find themselves in such a terrible situation as Pohl, who is himself accused of the murder of millions, it is quite likely that they should lie.
Q. You mean in the same position that you find yourself ?
A. No, I don't consider myself a million-fold murderer.
Q. No, I don't care about that. I merely want to give you an opportunity to state to the Tribunal what your idea was as to why Pohl would lie like this about you. Although there must have been millions of valuables taken from the people who were killed in the concentration camps, and looted , do you, as economic minister, and with the assistance of your Reichsbank, on you want us to believe that you knew reading about this ? And you can answer it briefly, yes or no.
A. I never asserted the fact that I knew nothing about it. I said that I knew that the SS confiscated certain valuables, and that they were deposited with the Reichsbank such as foreign exchange, gold coins and other foreign assets, bank notes, and that they were used by the Reichsbank.
Q. Wait a minutes please. I don't think you misunderstood my question. I was asking you about the textiles only. You did not know about the textile transaction at all ?
A. No, I did not know about these textiles, that they were coming from concentration camps to be used by the Ministry of Economy.
Q. Now thousands of other articles of a personal nature, from wrist watch to all kinds of jewelry, was flowing through your economic ministry with the assistance of the Reichsbank and you want the Tribunal to understand that you had no knowledge of all of those transactions ?
A. I did not know anything about those things, nothing at all.
Q. And gold teeth, or gold dentures, were in the vaults of your bank, but you didn't know anything about that strange deposit; you knew nothing about that either ? So you didn't know anything about all these great suns of foriegn currency actually going through your Reichsbank and deposited there, did you ?
A. I know nothing about the mammoth amounts which are being mentioned here I know only that foreign currency was being deposited.
Q. Are you sure you were in the Reichsbank in those days ?
A. Yes, of course.
MR. DODD: That is all I have.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 16 August 1946.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, have you any questions you want to put ?
DR. SAUTER: No. BY MR. BIDDLE:
Q. Defendant, I am not quite clear about your conversation with Himmler. Was this first time that a deposit this sort had been opened by the SS ?
A. Yes.
Q. You have never discussed this with any SS personalities before ?
A. No, with no one.
Q. And of course it wasn't Himmler's business to see that gold and notes were brought into the bank under the German law, was it ?
A. Himmler told, me that considerable valuables had been confiscated by the SS and they they included valuable which interested the Reichsbank.
Q. I didn't ask you that. Will you listen now ? Was it any of Himmler's business or duties to see that gold and notes were turned into the bank ? That didn't come under his jurisdiction, did it ?
A. Yes, if these things, for example, had been taken from, the inmates of concentration camps.
Q. That is exactly what I meant. So that you knew or suspected, since Himmler was dealing with you, that the gold and the notes had come from concentration camps which were under Himmler. Wasn't that the reason that you supposed that this material had come from camps ? It was obvious, wasn't it ?
A. Not only from concentration camps. Himmler was also in charge of the customs police and the SS was police in the occupied territories. It did not absolutely have to come from concentration camps alone.
Q. No, but you suspected it did came from the concentration camps when Himmler talked to you, didn't you ?
Q Did you ask him where it came from?
Q He said these gold and notes were part of other property; there was other property, too?
A No, he said they ware confiscated valuables. The interview was very brief and took place in Lammer's field headquarters, as I recall, when I met him there. It was a vary short conversation. He told me, We have confiscated a large amount of valuables, especially in the East, and we would like to deposit them in the Reichbank. May I add something? Then when these things came to the bank, Puhl and, as I recall Wilhelm were present at one talk. They said that I should ask Himmler whether these things which had been sent in by the SS in their deposit--we were not allowed to touch a deposit -- whether they could be used by the Reichsbank. I did ask him and he said yes.
Q Well, now, let's see. The "East" meant the Government General, didn't it?
Q But he didn't mean Germany; he meant occupied territories, didn't he?
A He spoke of "the East".
Q You had no idea what he meant when he said "the East", I suppose.
A I thought the occupied territories in the East. That is what I understood. The occupied eastern territories.
Q This was not one of your regular deposits; I think it would be appropriate to any that, was it? It was not one of your regular deposits, was it? It was unused
Q You didn't ask him any questions about it at all?
A No. I didn't speak at all with in any more, except what I have, told of he I had tried so hard yesterday to reconstruct everything. I can't remember.
Q You weren't curious about this deposit at all? You weren't curious about It didn't interest you?
A No. Once or twice I talked to pull, and once to Wilhelm quite briefly.
MR BIDDLE: Thank you; that is all.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant may return to the dock.
DR. STAHMER: MR. President, I asked for information, and the questions which I am to deal with were dealt with preciously.
I have learned that on the session of the 8th of March, 1946, the witness Milch was asked by me about two letters which Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff sent to him, a letter which wolff sent to him, and the answer. They are of May, 1942. This is on the transcript, in the English transcript on Page 5578. Jackson on page 5263 of the English transcript. Then General Rudenko, in cross examination with the same witness Milch, discussed another letter of Himmler to Milch of November, 1942. This is on the English transcript on Page 5674. time which was available. I do not recall having asked Goering about it, myself . This is quite a limited point. I considered it cleared up sufficiently by the testimony of Milch. Milch was examined before Goering. In my opinion, this deals with other events. The means against spotted typhus was not discussed at all. This is another subject than the one discussed Milch.
THE PRESIDENT: DO you mean that the defendant Goering didn't discuss the subject of experiments on inmates of concentration camps at all? What you refer to is General Milch.
DR. STAHMER: Yes. As far as I recall the matter now. I was not able to investigate it as to Goering. As far as I recall, I asked only Milch about the subject. Then in the examination of Goering which took place later, I did not come back to because I assumed that this question has been cleared up through Milch. But I should like to examine the transcript carefully. This noon I was not able to do so.
In this connection I should like to point out one thing. Mr. President. In my written application I made an application in case the witness Professor Schreiber, whose statement was referred to by the Russian Prosecution a few days ago--in case he is called as a witness. If the witness Schreiber is to be produced, I ask to be emitted to examine Goering after the examination of the witness Schreiber so that it will not be necessary to recall him to the witness stand a third time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider that, too. General Rudenko, can you inform the Tribunal whether Dr. Schreiber is going to be brought here, whether you are going to make use of the affidavit and have him brought here, or not?
GENERAL RUDENKO: We have taken all necessary measures in order to bring the witness Schreiber here to this courtroom, but we as yet have no data as to whether the witness will be brought before the case of the organizations is closed.