On the basis of the investigations of Prosecutor Roter penal proceedings were instituted against several SA men in Kattowitz. It was later reported to me that these proceedings had ended in sentencing of several of the accused, with severe penalties. (Signed) Dr. Frank."
THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Boehm, do you want to re-examine?
DR. BOEHM: I do not want to ask any further questions.
DR. SEIDL: I would like to call the attention of the Tribunal to a document, also in the name of the defendant Frank, a document which was submitted today, GB-615, Document D-923. In the report of the defendant Frank of 6 September 1933 it is shown under -3 that the defendant demanded strict prosecution of the accused SA Fuehrers.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has noticed that document and it does not require having its attention called to it by counsel for the defendant Frank have you any other documents.
DR. SEIDL: For the defendant Rudolph Hess I should like to make application that the Prosecution be requested that the answer of the Deputy of the Fuehrer to Document 784-PS also be submitted. This is a letter of Reich Minister of Justice to the Deputy of the Fuehrer of the 5th of June 1935. From the documents which were given to me it is now shown what occurred between this latter and the later decision of Hitler in this case. In particular the attitude which this took is not shown.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you not got the document you mean? You are referring to 784-PS and you are asking us to take notice of some other document. Have you got the document?
DR. SEIDL: No, I do not have it, but I should like to ask the Court that the Prosecution be requested to submit the answer to this document, the answer which the defendant Hess gave, that it be given to me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will request the Prosecution to produce the document if they have got it.
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: It will be done. I cannot say at the moment whether the document is in our possession. If it is, it will be done
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. New, Dr. Boehm, do you want to ask any questions; Do you think that you will be able to finish by 1:00 o'clock?
DR. BOEHM: That is impossible, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, will you be able to finish shortly afterwards?
DR. BOEHM: No. I believe that this re-examination which must take place after this cross-examination may last three hours. A number of now documents have to be taken up.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well,. We hope they will be relevant. BY DR. BOEHM:
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, the Tribunal thinks that three hours is not a reasonable time for re-examination. You will remember that re-examination should not be put in the form of leading questions; that is one rule, and another rule is that it must arise out of the cross-examination and not be for the purpose of introducing fresh evidence which has not been dealt with be cross-examination. You will be kept strictly to these rules.
DR. BOEHM: I believe that today and yesterday the cross-examination dealt with a number of now matters, especially with the matters which were...
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want any arguments from you, Dr. Boehm. I am telling you what the Tribunal rules. If your questions arise out of the cross examination they are admissible. If they do hot arise out of the crossexamination they are inadmissible. Now will you go on with your re-examinate please? BY DR. BOEHM: prosecutor was whether, and I assume that you personally as SA Fuehrer and SA Leadership were meant in this case, whether you dealt with the treatment of people outside of the borders of the Reich.
A No. The SA Leadership did not deal with the treatment of such people unless Germans were employed outside the Reich Borders who belonged to the SA. a report on the activities of the SA in the war was submitted yesterday. In connection with this report the prosecution assorted that its contents referred to the last week before the 23rd of June 1941; that is the day who this report was issued.
Now I should like to ask you whether it is true that the beginning of this report, under #1 on the 1st page: "The whole work of the SA from the beginning of the war" and on page 2 the last four lines, I quote: "Decorations.....
THE PRESIDENT: Did you give us the reference to this document?
DR. BOEHM: The first document which was submitted yesterday, 4011-PS on page 1 the first line and on page 2 the last four lines. May I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. I only wanted the reference to the document. Go on. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q "Decorations given to the SA: 21 Knight's Crosses of the Iron Cross, and 31,125 Iron Crosses, first and second class." Is it true if I say that this shows that the assertion of the prosecution that the report was only a report of the weeks before the 23rd of June 1941, that this assertion is incorrect: Is that true? activity of the SA during the war is a report beginning with the activity of the SA on the 1st of September 1939?
A These reports were always comprehensive reports. The third report I believe I signed it myself, sums up the activity of the SA from the beginning of the War until the day of the report. Hinterland was the activity of the SA in occupied territories, Mr. Huettner, if you will look at page 4 of this report that in the flood on the elbe, in the spring of 1941, for example, there were SA engineer units who were the first to arrive to give assistance and who, by means of their amphibious equipment, saved humans and animals from drowning, can one assume from this statement that what is called "Hinterland" was within the borders of the Reich?
Q And then please look at page 5 of the same report. Do you have it?
Q Well then, I will read it to you. On page 5 of the some report, I quote:
"The DAF was given many SA Fuehrers and Unterfuehrers duty in the Todt organization. The SA also fulfills extensive authoritative requirements, for example in the frontier control service." Does this not show clearly that the SA was eliminated from the authority of the SA Supreme Leadership and, like other drafted German citizens, was assigned to other authorities for a certain task?
A In all these services we released the men from the SA. We did not offer them. We released them. The agencies in question, the Organization Todt, and other authorities took such men in.
THE PRESIDENT: That has been said already, hans't it? He said already in cross-examination that these men, insofar as they were employed outside the Reich, were not operating as SA men in the SA units.
THE WITNESS: Within the Reich it was also true.
DR. BOEHM: What I asked had to precede the question which follows new or which was to follow. I should like to ask you, Mr. Huettner, were non the same conditions in existence in your report on the 21 groups of SA men who were assigned to guard prisoners?
THE PRESIDENT: That again, Dr. Boehm, he has already said. He said that all activities referred to in this report, insofar as they are concerned with the SA man, were not under SA men or SA units.
DR. BOEHM: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 16 August 1946.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, in answer to the question of how long the redirect examination would be, I gave too long a time. After looking through the material, I believe I can say that much of it has nothing to do with the SA; and that I can abbreviate the examination. BY DR. BOEHM: again in connection with the report that 21 groups participated in the transport of prisoners, how did the report originate and at whose orders did these people transport the prisoners; that is, were these people ordered by the SA to transport prisoners, or was this activity carried out in the capacity of these men as soldiers? made every month and later every three months. The men were under the Wehrmacht for the purpose of guarding the prisoners. macht members in connection with the transport of prisoners?
A I do not know the number. They were quite small units. before and after the beginning of the Second World War was the same. I should like to ask you, Mr. Juettner, before the first of September, 1939, was shooting taught, or was it only small caliber shooting?
A Only small caliber shooting such as was practiced previously; but after the beginning of the war, we laid more stress on the war sport exercises, and the ordinary sport exercises were put somewhat into the background. was forbidden in the SA to base maneuverson military situations?
SA, to a large extent, did not have any previous military training in order to base the exercises on military situations.
Q Then a historical questions. On the basis of the association the prosecution made in connection with the statements on Page 15 of the document 4011, do you know, Mr. Juettner, when the Mamelland became part of the Third Reich? Perhaps, do you know that it was in March, 1939?
A I can't say that exactly, but it is probably true. and part of the province of East Prussia; I believe I can say the prosecution is still confusing the SA-group Ortsland with the so-called Reichscommisari
A In East Prussia, the SA-Group Ostland, we had an SA; we organized and lead them. From the west of the Ostland, Lithuania, Latvia, etc., there was; never a German SA which was organized or directed by us. This question is probably connected with a document, an excerpt of which is registered by the prosecution. Perhaps I may explain to your Lordship that since the beginning of the cross examination, I have been in solitary confinement and have no connection with the SA. For that reason, I believe I can comment on the document presented yesterday which accused the SA. I believe I can give the following three sentences. In the first place, to such serious documents, one can comment when one has been able to look them over in peace and quiet, -- that was not possible for me. In the second place, numerous documents, excerpts of which were read, no questions were asked about them. For example, the Blomberg letter. In the third place, the documents which were submitted to me, questions were asked only which had no connection with the facts contained. For example, the report of Brigade 50 requesting the dissolution of a synagogue.
Even today I consider this report false because it is impossible according to the content and because what is said in the report could not be carried out in view of the time, but I believe that the Defense will clear up the doubts through its questions. ed themselves with foreign nations. In this connection, I should like to ask you if you did do that and if that would have been your intention?
A We did not concern our selves with foreign nations in the SA. That was never our intention. Reichkommissariat Ostland the establishment of Party branches was prohibited. In Esthonia, Latvia or Lithuania could an SA Group or SA Brigade exist?
A No, it could not exist, and we did not organize any. The men of the SAwho were employed there wire not under the SA Fuehrung. For example, there were the SA Fuehrers Kunze and Kramer. They were Fuehrers for special purposes. They were not under the SA leadership when they were employed there. These men were a different uniform. Perhaps confusion arose from this.
Q Would you have violated such an order of the Reich Government? administration of the Ghetto in Vilna? was at no time entrusted with such tasks.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, when you speak of an order of the Reich Government, are you referring to a document?
DR. BOEHM: No, and order of the Reich Government which is generally known. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q An affidavit of Mr. Szloma Gol was submitted yesterday. In that connection I should like to ask you whether the City Commissar of Vilna come under you in any way? Did you have any authority over him, and did he carry out any assignments for you? did not receive orders from the SA. If I recall correctly, three more SA members were also mentioned yesterday.
Q Was the Provincial Kommissar of Vilna ever under you? Leadership. It says that the export on Jewish questions was an SA officer. Muerer. Was he under you in any connection with respect to his activity in Vilna? This man who is mentioned was not either. If he was employed there, he was only from the SA for the duration of his assignment there, and he carried out his tasks there without the SA Leadership being able to inflence him in any way.
Q. In connection with the Indictment against another organization, the Prosecution submitted a document, Exhibit US 276. I shall quote on page two of this document, the last paragraph:
"In the first hours after entry, even though under considerable difficulties, native anti-Semitic forces were excited to pogroms against the Jews. According to orders, the Security Police was determined to solve the Jewish question with all means." Police who caused pogroms in Vilna, Schaulen and Kovno. In the case against the SA, oh the other hand, the Prosecution says that it was the SA. As Defense Counsel, I should like to now which organization is actually responsible for the Jewish pogroms in this cities, and I ask you, did the Supreme SA Leadership through orders or instructions have any part in any excess or any measures against Jews in this district?
A. At no time and under no circumstances.
Q. And then an affidavit was submitted yesterday by a Mr. Khaim Kagan. The witness says that he saw girls in SA uniforms. Were there ever femanle SA members?
A. I have already answered that. We did not have female SA members -never.
Q. The senselessness of this assignment of guilt in the affidavit -- is it not made obvious by the fact that it asserts that it had to be SA people because they were a brown uniform? This assertion is made repeatedly in this affidavit.
A. In my testimony yesterday and the day before yesterday, I pointed out on various occasions that in the course of years, everyone who were a brown shirt was called en SA man. That seems to be the case here too, although those concerned had nothing to do with the SA.
Q. It is the some with the affidavit of Mr. Laib Kibart; the people whom he mentions and whom he calls SA men, he identifies as SA men because they were brown uniforms with a swastika armband. Were not the swastika armband and the brown uniform worn by others, and primarily by these people who worked in the Eastern Ministry and the duties connected with it?
There was an East uniform. the SA?
A. The East uniform was worn by those who were employed in this task, employed by the East Administration, not by the SA, It was brown, and I believe that it had the swastika armband, and, without doubt, like any other brown uniform, it could be consued with the SA uniform.
Q. The document PS 1435 was submitted yesterday. It is a letter from the Reich Kommissar for the Ostland. It was written on 13 June 1943. I wanted to ask you, Did you or did the SA Fuehrung at any time -- were you the superiors of the Reich Kommissars for the Ostland?
A. No. No Reich Kommissars in the Ostland were under SA Leadership. They were under the East Administration. The SA Leadership had no influence on this. It was not its function.
Q. Now I should like to show you the paragraph which yesterday was the subject of statements by the Prosecutor but which, in my opinion, was taken out of context. It reads:
"On the order of the Chief --"
THE PRESIDENT: What is the reference?
DR. BOEHM: That is Number 1435-PS, Mr. President. It is the second paragraph from the end in this document. BY DR. BOEHM:
"On orders of the Chief of Anti-Partisan Activity SS Obergruppenfuehrer Von Dem Bach, units of Wehrmannschaften took part in the undertakings. SA Standartenfuehrer Kunze led the Wehrmannschaften, which included 90 members of my group and the District Kommissariat Minsk. Our men returned from the undertaking without loss yesterday. I refused commitment of officials and employees of the General Kommissariat in the army rear area. The men employed by me were not deferred in order to combat partisans in the place of the Wehrmacht and the police. One railroad man was wounded (shot in the lungs)."
to combat partisans, as had to be on the basis of the Soviet Russia order? Could this have been an SA detail?
A. No, under no circumstances. They were called Wehrmannschaften under an SA Fuehrer Kunze, who had for some time been out of the active Leadership Corps of the SA. He was a leader for special use. He was in the East. I have just learned that he was used in the East.
He was employed in connection with the East Administration. If he trained men, they were not our own. There were none there, We did not organize, train them or influence them in any way. was an official of the Kommissariat Minsk, he had nothing to do with the Supreme SA Leadership? That is true?
THE PRESIDENT : Will you ask the witness, or. Boehm, what "Wehrmannschaften" means literally?
DR. BOEHM : The witness has already commented on that yesterday by distinguishing between "SA Wehrmannschaften" and "Wehrmannschaften" of the type mentioned here.
THE PRESIDENT : I asked what the word meant literally. BY DR. BOEHM : understand under the term "Wehrmannschaften." "SA Wehrmannschaften" and "Wehrmannschaften" of the type mentioned here. The "SA Wehrmannschaften" according to the decree of Adolf Hitler of January, 1939, were to be set up by the SA in the Reich from released soldiers so that they could be kept ready for the front physically and mentally. The Wehrmannschaften" mentioned here were given this designation without our having anything to do with it. I imagine that in this "Wehrmannschaften" men were gatheres together to combat partisans in the occupied territory.
THE PRESIDENT : The witness still has not told me what the were means. It is a German word. All we want is the translation. Is it possible to translate it?
DR. BOHHM : If I may, I will explain it. I would say that it is a group of persons determined to ward off an attack from any side.
THE PRESIDENT : Do you agree with what your counsd has said, or what the organization counsel has said as to the meaning of the word?
THE WITNESS : One can define it differently, too. It is a unit under a leader, in this case for committment against enemy action in was occupied territory that is behind the front, a defense organization.
DR. BOEHM : I believe that it is necessary, Mr. President, for me to demonstrate to you with the aid of Document 14011 the difference between "Wehrmannschaften" and "SA Wehrmannschaften". It is on Page 9, the third paragraph.
THE PRESIDENT : Page 9 of what?
DR. BOEHM : I thought I said 4011, Mr. President. The deputy General Kommando, IV A.M. speaks of "SA Wehrmannschaften and the same term is used on the same page in the same document in paragraph five. It is the position the Deputy General Kommando. There it is stated also : "While I was on duty with the "SA Wehrmannschaften on the second of June, 1940--" If the Wehrmannscheften were concerned and they were explicitly designated-
THE PRESIDENT : Dr. Boehm, the translation we have states : "When I was standing at the training of the SA Armies on the second of June, 1940, I observed that the physical training of the SA was carried through under military conditions and was done with great ambition."
DR. BOEHM : Mr. President, I should like to contrast the term SA Wehrmannschaften" if there were such "Wehrmannschaften" if they did not belong to the SA.
THE PRESIDENT : I do not think it is any good arguing the point. I was only asking what the meaning of the word was. The witness has now explained to me that according to the Hitler decree of January, 1959, certain men called "Wehrmannschafter were to be set up in the Reich, as he says, ready for defense.
Of you can confirm that, it would be useful perhaps.
DR. BOEHM : If the explained of this term is sufficient, may I continue?
THE PRESIDENT : Certainly. BY DR. BOEHM : to be shown that the Supreme SA Leadership was in charge of the guarding of forced labor camps. That was first affidavit given in this connection. I should like to ask you under whom the forced labor camps were operated? Can you clearly state that. Did you ever assign SA men as SA units for the auxiliary or to another authority as employment in such labor camps? the SA. The guarding and supervising of forced laborers is a police task. If SA men were used for this, they were obligated for this duty on a legal basis and were no longer under the authority of the SA. They fulfilled their pllice tasks, just like anyone also fulfilled his task there. He remained an SA man but for the time of his use for police tasks, he was on leave from the SA and was no longer under the influence of the SA leadership.
Q Not for orders either? is Document 3681 PS. This document is signed by a certain Gewecke. The prosecution wants to show the part of the SA in an attack on Jews in Germany. Therefore, I should like to ask you did not the district Kommissar in Schaulen show this was the affair of the Reich Kommissar? This latter was written on the 8th of September, 1941. The heading roads "The District Kommissar in Schaulen."
Was the District Kommissar in Schaulen ever in any way under you? in the occupied eastern territory, or in any of the occupied territories, were in no way under then SA Leadership and as a result, did not receive and could not receive any instructions from the SA Leadership. The District Kommissar was not under then influence of the SA.
Q That is cleared up. This letter was written by a certain Gewecke. He was an SA man, but it is interesting in this connection to emphasixe that from the contents of this document. it shows that a certain Gewecke complaining about attaks on Jews compistted by the SS.
16 Aug M LJG Karr 4-1 to the commander of the Security Police and the in the Government General. In view of this Prosecution document I should first like to state that Kattowitz or the outpost Ilkenau was not in the Government General but in Upper Silesia. the following sentence which I will quote.
"Therefore, the construction staff at Kattowitz set up a special detail of 12 SA men in order to obtain workers in the individual villages." SA post but that the official construction staff Kattowitz accidently chose SA members, amongst others. Did you understand me witness?
A Yes. Which question should'I answer?
Q Was a construction staff at Kattowitz over under you? Todt were never under the SA leadership. If a construction staff used SA men for such assignments it, no doubt, took them from its personnel who in that case were SA members. If they chose SA men who were directly under its orders that was out side the powers of the SA leadership. If such men would have been guilty of illegal actions in this connection they deserve just punishment. In any case, the SA leadership, as the document shows, had no influence on such employment. It was under the construction staff which was not subordinate to the SA leadership. actually were SA Einsatzkommandos of which you know nothing? Would that have been possible? the term "Einsatzkommando" was completely foreign for such purposes. If Einsatzkommandos existed and there were SA members among them that was due not to any instructions of the SA and was not approved by the SA.
Reichsfuehrer SS and chief of the German Police Berlin to the Inspector of the concentration camps, dated 21 February. I do not have the exhibit number given yesterday but there is no doubt about this letter because I have a photostatic copy of it here.
I should like to ask you, Mr. Juettner, whether the supreme SA leadership had a labor camp for shirkers, as was assorted yesterday and as this document might be interpreted to indicate.
Regarding the camp Frauenberg, it says:
"About twenty men of the SA guarded the camp. in Styria concerning the labor camp in which twenty SA men are said to have been used as guards? Would you like to see the document? Have you seen the document?
(Witness handed document) the document in the Must third. SS took over the concentration camps at the end of 1933 the SA, as an organization, had nothing to do with concentration camps and guarding of concentration camps. If SA non were in fact used as guards, in this case they were drafted by the autheritie as auxiliary police or something similar for this assignment. But they were no longer under the authority of the SA.
Q Another document is document 4013-PS, which says:
"This morning I had an inquiry from very important English quarters whether it could be possible that, behind the back of Hitler and Rabicht, the Austrians in Germany could invade Austrian My informant added that so far the Austrian charges had been laid aside but this information had come from such a reliable source that they simply had to contact us. I am afraid of a possible provocation by hired elements which, if announced to 16 Aug M LJG Karr 4-3 the world just at that time, could produce conflicts."
canards? Do you know the document?
( Witness handed document) affair. I would have had to learn of it. The so-called Austrian Logon was far from the Austrian "border, several hundred kilometers at the Rhine. This alone should indicate that any border incidents or what is inferred here was quite out of the question. In any case, I know nothing about the affair until now. yesterday, D 951. On the second page of the document it says:
"According to the report of the VI Military District Headquarters, the SA Brigadefuehrers are also said to be considering forming such a staff guard already find to be engaging SA men for one to one and a half year's service for this purpose. Numerically this would amount to six to eight thousand SA men permanently armed with rifles and machine guns in the area of the VI Military District alone."
The second letter says the training is to be begun 9/8.
Have you seen this document?
(witness handed document.)
Q Do not those documents refer to the People's Militia which Roehm intended to set up and which failed? Please describe Roehm's People's Militia and its political connection and plea so be brief. in part armed, to protect the offices and to set up honor guards and other guards which were public. That six thousand non were to be included in the staff guards as here indicated, is quito out of the question. Mr. von Blomberg repeatedly made mistakes. Those mistakes are especially clear from an exchange of corres 16 Aug M LJG Karr 4-4 no personally because of an order of May 8, 1934, for which he attacked me personally and in which he presented the state of facts completely falsely.
On my objection and that of Chief of Staff Lutze he excused himself with the explanation that in such turbulent times such mistakes could occur. discussions, in addition to the Reichsfuehrer, wanted to create a militia from the ranks of the SA amounting to 300,000 men. He repeatedly emphasized that the state leadership had to keep the word they had given to the old gentleman, morning Hindenburg, that is the Reichsfuehrer could not touch the Reichswehr.
attaches of the western powers. I myself was twice a witness; and had the unequivocal impression that the military occupancy of France particularly -
THE PRESIDENT: I don't believe that we need to prolong this discussion. The witness says, as I understand it, that this document refers to a militia which Roehm wanted to set up. Is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, those were the plans of Roehm. were not these plans completely shelved?
A These plans were in no way carried out. On the contrary, the comparatively few arms which the staff guards had after the 30th of June, 1934, were turned in. contains a collection of articles from the SA Mann, which was commented on adequately in the Commission. It was cleared up sufficiently just what importance SA Mann had to the individual members of the SA and what influence the SA leadership was upon this paper. Since, these things were brought up again, however, I must briefly comment on it once more. It is fundamentally false, if one quotes articles, to quote only excerpts.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't seem to have an understanding. You are not here to comment; you are here to ask questions of the witness. If you want to ask questions of the witness, ask them.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President. I should like to quote an article which is given here in Document 3050-A. This article must be quoted by me, Mr. President, since I should like to ask a question, because it arises from the submission on the part of the prosecution by quoting one article from the SA Mann. It does not read as given here.
The article reads: "Since the march is in the last analysis a sport exercise, the same principles are true of it as for any other sport. Pulse and hardening of the body are conditions for successful march training For those marching, foot care is especially important."