carried out was not that of the SA, but of the department sending these men over. departments in the government generals were concerned, we have had repeated objections against the repeated use of SA men for police duties. We did not want to have the SA carrying out police duties, but they were called in periodically, on the basis of legal and lawful regulations, and used for police work. If they say that in the future SA men are no longer to be used, but police officials, then this merely means quite clearly that not auxiliary policemen are to be used, but policemen proper. doing this work, and have also objected to the brutal methods with which they carried it out. do know that SA men were being used as auxiliary police in the Government General? Is that what you are telling the Tribunal? reports that, based on legal regulations, SA men had been used for police service.
How I want you to tell me this. You said, in your report on the war, that the SA had been used regarding prisoners of war. Didn't the SA also guard forced labor camps? have guarded labor camps. camps which suggest you guarded :
Jews; Nechtau; Markstadt; Littau; Fallberg; Reichenau; and Annaber connection with labor camps.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Wour Lordship will find, at page 131 of to book 16-B, an affidavit of Rudolf schoenberg. That will be OB-601, My Lord. He speaks of the S-- guarding those camps, and of the conditions. He finishes by saying : "All I wish to say here is that the SA in no way lagged behind the SS in their murderous and criminal methods at that time already", which, was in 1946. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE :
Q Let no put another points to you. Do you remember the SA guarding a labor camp at Frauenberg, near Adment? That was a labor came for skirkers and drunkards, of about 300 prisoners. Do you remember the SA guarding that?
A That is completely unknown to me. I have never heard about it; I never heard of it. is a personal report to Himmler. Now just have a look at it.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE : My Lord, it has a certain melancholy interest in that it deals with the selection of Auschwitz as a concentration camp. only on this one point-- I be your pardon, My Lord, the affidavit should, have been number GB-603, and this is Exhibit 604.
(Continuing) How, will you look at that?
THE PRESIDENT : What page is it on?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE : I am sorry, Lord, page 132, the next page. That is a report from an SS Oberfuehrer called Gluecks, whose name I think we are not unfamiliar with. It is a report to Himmler of the 21rst of February, 1940, in which the man Gluecks deals with five possible concentration camps which Himmler might consider using, or rather, six possible concentration camps.
The third of these is a place called Frauenberg, and he says:
"Frauenberg is a labor camp set up by the Provincial welfare Union of Styria for shirkers and drunkards. It consists of five wooden huts and can take 300 prisoners.
"The Labor prisoners are exclusively Styrians who are paid for their work by the Provincial welfare Union of Styria during their time in the camp--27 to 57 pfennis an hour, less food.
"The SA-- about 20 men-- do the guarding. The labor prisoners are employed in two quarries and on building roads," Then it says : "The whole place is now state property; formerly it belonged to the Admont Foundation."
BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: guarding a labor camp, and you, the Deputy Chief of Satff, would know nothing about the fact that SA men were employed in labor camps? How could you be ignora of these facts? Just explain to the Tribunal; how could you be ignorant? auxiliary policemen, and that is the way they acted. Just as NSKK men, or any other citizens, ware under the legal obligation of having to serve, SA men, on the strength of existing laws, could be signed up as auxiliary policemen. That was a measure of the state, which had nothing to do with the SA and which could not be influenced by the SA, and of which the SA couldn't know anything either. It was impossible for the SA leadership to be informed of the fate of every individual man, as it is being expressed in your question. That is quite out of the question They weren't SA men, they were serving for the police, and that is all. during the war years. condition where they could do these pieces of work.
Do you deny that the SA was the bearer of the military thought of Germany?
A Such questions were put to me during interrogations. You are mixing up defensive military thoughts with military thoughts. The SA were the bearers of the Wehrgedanken (defense thoughts). and that had nothing to do with military police or military training. spirit, do you? in 1939, put the two things together so strongly?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: My Lord, it is only a short reference from a document that is already in: 3215-PS which is United States Exhibit 426, and, My Lord, it in the original SA document book.
Q (Continuing); This is an article by Lutze, as head of the SA, on SA military training, dated the 11th of March, 1939, and he says:
"The men never forgot the mission of the Fuehrer to require the military training of the German men and to reconstruct the military spirit of the German people." And he quotes the very well known passage from Mein Kampf which I am sure, witness, you know by heart:
"The sport troop of the SA shall be the bearer of the military thought of a free people."
And he gives Hitler's words:
"Give the German Nation six million perfectly trained bodies in sport, all fanatically inspired with love for the Fatherland, and trained to the highest offensive spirit."
In a sentence, aren't these words of your chief Lutze the spirit and aim under which you worked to train the SA from 1934 to 1939? trial, sometimes doesn't know the difference between the defensive spirit and military training, or still hasn't discovered it. That had been discussed in detail during interrogations before the Commission. Lutze did not write about military training; he wrote about defensive education, which is something quite different from military training.
We did what every country expects from its patriots. We had a physical and model training of human beings, and nothing more. But no preparation for war. as you are trying to put it to me, was the case. the SA command was ordering no publicity about technical, signal, and motorized companies or separate air wings, "because they may be taken as an infringement of Versailles."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: My Lord, that is document D-44, USA 4288; that is the first document in the book, MY Lord.
Q (Continuing) Why was your leadership such that what the SA was doing in the way of these technical units would be construed as an infringement of Versailles, and any publicity was to endanger the person publicizing it with prosecution for high treason, if you wern't doing military training?
sion. That order was connected with the military intent on the part of Roehm and the details must become apparent from the record and if your Lordship wishes no to do so, I shall repeat what I spoke into the record there.
THE PRESIDENT: Just answer the question. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: tion of technical units would be considered an infringement of the Treaty of Versailles if they were not military ?
A Roehm's negotiations with foreign states hadn't been concluded and consequently, soma false suspicion might have arisen. in May 1933 that the Supreme SA command should combine reppresentation with the Party on the Reich Defense Council ? Why were you to be represented on the Reich Defense Council if you weren't conducting military training?
My Lord, that is, I think, a new document. It is 2822PS, and it becomes GB-605. That document was never put in but your Lordship will find it in the old SA document. I am afraid that is not the page but it is in No. 2822-PS. It is "Strictly Confidential," dated the 26th of May 1933. From the Chief of Ministerial Office in the War Department to the Supreme SA Command. Your Lordship, it is very short. It is from von Reichenau. I don't know what his rank was then. I think he was a General or a Fieldmarshal after.
"In addition to my letter of 22 May 1933, may I bring to your attention that the desire has been transmitted to me from the defense-policy bureau of the NSDAP to be also represented in the Reich's Defense Council.
"I want to submit for consideration that representation be combined in personal union with the representation of the Supreme SA Command that possibly one suitable person be charg ed with, both representations."
to be represented on the Reich Defense Council if it was not doing military training ? has nothing whatever to do with military training. At that time, and that again, I said before the Commission, that was for the event that we could not pay the reparation costs and for the event that marches and invasions in the west had to be expected, which proposed that the left bank of the Rhine should be cleared of all Germans capable of doing military service and this clearing out, that meant handing over to the SA through the Party--and as far as that is concerned, the SA and the party were both interested in seeing to it that this should be discussed in the Reich Defense Council.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, may I disturb you for a moment ? This document contains a confirmation of the fact that this was turned down by Roehm. I think it would be useful to put that to the witness, too, that it Was turned down. It says here: "To Krueger--No, I talked to Reichenau about it", and signed "Roehm." That means he turned it down.
THE PRESIDENT: We had better adjourn now, I think.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 15 August, at 1000 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I have one or two announcements to make. I Tribunal will sit in closed session this afternoon. There will be no open session after one o'clock today. The Tribunal will not sit in open session on Saturday. admitted.
Request has been made to the Tribunal that the report of Col. Neave be made available to counsel for the SS. The Tribunal has requested Col. Neave to prepare for its assistance summaries of the evidence of witnesses heard before the Commission and a report grouping the testimony of the witnesses before the Commission with respect to the points on which they have given evidence. These summaries and the report mentioned are not parts of the record and are not accorded any evidential value by the Tribunal, which has before it, and will consider, the transcript of the entire evidence before the Commission. Counsel for the organizations and counsel for the Prosecution may see these documents and may comment on them in their arguments with the time heregofore allowed, but the Tribunal-will not grant any dealy or any additional time for argument with regard to them.
The Tribunal has also received an application that Dr. Klafisch might make a speech on the law with reference to the organizations, and a speech in writing has been deposited with the Tribunal on behalf of Dr. Klafisch. The Tribunal does not propose to hear an additional speech on behalf of the organizations, but it will consider the speech in writing which has been deposited by Dr. Klafisch.
I now turn to a completely different subject. The Tribunal has been informed that some of the defendants have deposited long statements for translation by the translation division.
There is no necessity for the defendants' statements to be translated and the will not be translated by the translation division. The Tribunal draws the attention of the defendants and their counsel to the order of 23 July 1946 which was in the following terms : "In view of the full statements already made by the defendants and their counsel, the Tribunal assumes that if it is the desire of the defendants to make any further statements, it will be on to deal with matters previously omitted. The defendants will not be permit to make further speeches or to repeat what has already been said by themselves or their counsel, but will be limited to statements of a few minutes each to cover matters not already covered by their testimony or the arguments of counsel." The Tribunal will adhere strictly to this order, and the defendants will not be allowed to make statements which last longer than, as the order says, "a few minutes." These statements will be made by the defendants from their places in the dock.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, the affidavit of the Polish priest which your Lordship referred to, is document 4043 PS, and now becomes GB 606. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: of Roehm on the document 2822 PS, which was a memo from General von Reichenau to the Supreme SA Command.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it is in document book "Y", the original document book. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: "The desire has been transmitted to me from the Defense Policy Bureau of the Party to be also represented in the Reich Defense Counsel." He goes on to say, "I want to submit for consideration that this representation be combined in personal union with the representation of the Supreme SA Command, that possibly one suitable person be charged with both representations." that there was nothing military in the wishes of the SA. Are these the words Follow and see that I got them right. "An Krueger, nein, Hit Reichenau am --" and then the Figures -- "16 and 11, erortert also vertreter," then, "O, B, S, A, F." I will repeat that, "O, B, S, A, F, Krueger." Does that mean that the two parties of the representation are not to be combined, or agreed with Reichenau on the 16th of the 11th, that the representative of the Supreme SA-leadership is Krueger. In other words, that Krueger was to represent the SA-leadership on the Reichs Defense Counsel. Isn't that what Roehm has written?
Q First of all, answer my question. Isn't that what's there, that Krueger is to be the representative of the SA-leadership on the Reich Defense Counsel? which showed that the SA were not connected with military matters. It shows they were represented directly on the Reichs Defense Counsel, doesn't it?
dominantly for clearing the territory left on the Rhino for an event which I also mentioned yesterday; that is to say, the clearing out of men of the population, but nothing military.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Nov, My Lord, in the interest of time, I should ask the Tribunals approval of the following course: I have a certain number of new documents which are of a public nature. I shall propose to put them in without referring to the witness unless there is any point that the Tribunal should like to put to him. Then When we come to documents with which the witness can help the Tribunal, I shall cross examine him on them.
My Lord, there would be some saving of time. I hope the Tribunal will approve.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases. If Your Lordship would look at the document book 16 B, at Page 53. The -
THE PRESIDENT: The defense counsel have these documents, have they not, or they will have them?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: They will be given to them as we go along.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have not got these documents.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, they will be given to defense counsel as I read them.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, that is what I was saying.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, document D-851, I didn't give the number. My Lord, that becomes GB 607. My Lord, it is a letter, it begins with a letter of Roehm's, then, the Chief of Staff of the SA, and encloses a letter from Blomberg to Hitler. My Lord, it is the enclosure that is important. That is from Berlin on the 2 of March, 1934, to the Reich Chancellor. "I feel it my duty to draw attention once mere to the significance of the staff guards of the SA. According to the order of the chief of staff, every Corps and Division (Obergruppe and Gruppe) is to form an armed staff guard with a heavy machine-gun company. This formation is at present taking place. According to the report of the Sixth Military District, Headquarters, the SA Brigadefuehrers are also said to be considering forming such a staff guard already, and to be engaging SA men for one to and and a half year's service for this purpose.
Selection and training have to take place with the aim of appearing in public. Numerically this would amount to 6 to 8 thousand SA men permanently armed with rifles and machine-guns in the area of the Sixth Military District, Headquarters, alone. A particularly awkward fact is that the creation of these staff guards relies on so-called SA auxiliary camps (Hilfswerklager), which are mostly situated in the big towns. And I call the Tribunal's special attention to the next sentence. "Today I have received the report that in Moechst on the Main, that is, in the neutral zone, the creation of such an armed staff guard is taking place. Such Behavior renders all the Wehrmacht's care and that of the Krueger depots within the neutral zone which are influenced by it, illusory. As the chief of staff is away from Berlin, I am sending this report direct to the Chancellor. Signed Blomberg."
Don't you realize that was two years before the occupation of the neutral zone on the Rhino? Then, My Lordship, if you will be good enough to turn over to Page 129, which is document 4013 PS, that will become GB 608. That is a letter from the defendant Rosenberg from the Local Editor's office in Berlin to the Munich Editor's Office, presumably of the Beobachter. "The Munich Editor's Office shall forward immediately in a well closed envelope the following communication to the Chief of Staff. The authorities here learned that Austrians in Berlin have informed Vienna --"and Your Lordship will note that this is third of February, 1934, during the Dolfuss Putsch which was in July, '34 -- "that the SA plans to have the Austrian formations in Bavaria march into Austria around the 8th or 9th of February. Then a military dictatorship would be proclaimed. This morning I had an inquiry from very important English quarters whether it could be possible that, behind the back of Hitler and Habicht, the Austrians in Germany could invade Austria. My informant added that so far the Austrian charges had been laid aside, but this information had come from such a reliable source that they simply had to contact us. I am afraid of a possible provocation by hired elements which, if announced to the world just at that time, could produce conflicts. I explained that the Fuehrer does not follow a peace policy with Poland aid at the same time start any military conflicts with Austria.
I report this matter and if occasion requires, the supreme SA Command takes the necessary steps."
Now, My Lord, the next is the Czechoslovakian matter. If Your Lordship turns to page 65 of the book. My Lord, that is document EG 366-1. My Lord, that is report GB 609. My Lord, it is a report on the 11th of October, 1938, dealing with the position of the Sudeten Frei Corps in September, 1933. It is made by Lt. Colonel Koechling, special delegate of the OKW to the Youth Loader of the German Reich. On the first page, Your Lordship will see, about the sixth line from the bottom, "There were an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 men in the reception camps and villages along the active front." If Your Lordship will turn to page 66, or 96, My Lordship, line two says that the groups were formed into battalions and etc.
Then, line 6: "Supplies had been organized by the SA in conjunction with the NSV, and went smoothly from the very beginning. A very small amount of arms, consisting of Austrian carbines, had been supplied by the Austrian SA."
The, four lines further on: "With magnificent camaraderie and unselfishness, the supreme SA leadership had looked after the Freikorps materially."
Ten lines on: "Equipping and feeding remained in the care of the NSV and the SA."
Then, My Lord, on page 67, the fourth line: "Here again the SA helped in part with available signals apparatus."
Six lines from that: "The building up of the groups and staffs in the manner ordered was only possible owing to the effective support of the liaison officers provided to each group by the IKH".
Then, four lines on: "In this the liaison officers were particularly well supported by the German SA leaders from the Reich who had been put into the Freikorps battalions by the SA. Without their camaraderie and their readiness to do their duty, the Freicorps could not have carried out its task.
"The supreme leaders appointed to the Freikorps by the supreme SA leadership also contributed essentially to the building up of the Freikorps and to its successes." way the work went on and how the SA continued to help. I think from there, if your Lordship will turn to page 71, you can see what this Freikorps did under this SA guidance.
The last paragraph, My Lord, is:
"The force carried out more than 200 minor undertakings, in which they lost nearly 100 dead and more than 50 wounded, and captured more than 2,000 prisoners and a great deal of booty of all kinds -- see Appendix 1 -- so that the task which the Fuehrer had demanded as a foundation for his foreign political negotiations may be considered as having been completed."
and the guns, ammunition, and equipment that were captured. Of course, the Tribunal will remember that all this happened in a time of peace, when all the defendants have been so anxious to point out to us that no war ever started -that is, before Munich. the training of the SA in the middle of the war, in 1941, differed from the training that was given in peace. I only want to give Your Lordships the different documents in which the training is found. I am not going to take them in detail, but I will indicate what they contain in a moment. That is 1849-PS, and your Lordship will find it at page 82 of the document book; that becomes GB-610. On pages 89 to 104 of the book, Your Lordship will find the training course. United States Exhibit 430, and is in the old SA document book. That is the organization book for 1938, which includes the training of the SA, including the military training, throwing hand grenades, and so on. at the end, and if Your Lordship will check, you can see if my summary is right. ships will find on page 32 of document book 16-B. My Lord, that is a list of the contents of the handbook of the SA, and it must be after 1937 because there is a reference to the peiple's gas mask of 1937 on page 36. I haven't got the exact date. If Your Lordships would merely like to note the sections, they are 8, 9, and 10 under the letter "E". Number 8 is musketry; 9 is training and terrain; and "E" is the training for the attack. document 3050-PS, which is a large bundle of extracts from the "SA Man". My Lord, this is in a special bundle from which we have had translated certain articles, and it is number K -- 3050-K. As I say, My Lord, it is a lecture of Lutze, of whom this witness has talked so much, given on the 14th of May, 1938.
yesterday. It is D-916, which is page 1 of document book 16-B. That is the training directives for 1939; it goes on from page 1 to page 21. which, as I say, I will summarize -- there is one point on page 21 which I would be grateful if the Tribunal would note. This is apart from training, but I don't want to go back to the document.
On page 21 Your Lordships will see, under the letter "H", "Aids to the preparation and carrying out of the training", and under number 4, "The SA Man". Just is point on that, My Lord. 16-B, and that is 3993-PS, which will become USA 612. It is a letter from Lutze to the defendant Rosenberg, dated the 30th of January 1939:
"Please accept my thanks for your congratulations incidental to the Fuehrer's decree which assigns all pro-military and post-military training to the SA".
the documents, as follows: the concomitant factors.
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing): Sir David, the Tribunal would like you to put that last document that you have been dealing with, 3993-PS, to the witness.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: My Lord, I will certainly do that.
(A document was submitted to the witness.) BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: of January 1939, have you not? that the pre-military and post-military training should be assingned to the SA? practice this decree was never applied. ives from 1934 to 1939, did you not? have to speak in more detail. The privilege of justifying oneself has been stated by the American Chief Prosecutor, Mr Jackson, with particular reference to the organizations. Therefore, I shall have to come, in detail, to the accusations stated here.
A I haven't finished yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't argue, please answer the question. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: contained training in musketry training in the handling of arms, training in the use of terrain, that is, the use of grounds, camouflage, reports, methods of attack reconnaisance, and every one except the first--no, all of them training in the use of hand grenades and generally training in attack, in battle, indealing with attack by armored troops, by air planes, infact that they all contained the first stages of military training which every soldier has to go through before he is qualified to be a soldier?
And, witness, before you answer, you may assume that 90 percent of the male population of this court have gone through military training and they know it from a practical point of view. initial statges of military training?
A. First, I do not deny it, and in the second place, this is a training which is handled by the armed forces and not by the SA. Weapon training is something we never handled. These questions cannot be answered with yes or no. I would have to answer them in detail if I am to give you a truthful answer to them.
Q. Witness, what I want to know is this, and the Tribunal will no doubt let you give an explanation. Are you telling the Tribunal that these training directives were issued one after the other for five years from 1934 1939 and that that training was not carried into effect ? Tell me. You can answer that yes or no. Was that training carried into effect ?
A. We have carried out training in order to improve the physical condition whether we worked in accordance with these principles or not.
Q. I do not propose to put them in detail. If Dr. Boehm -
THE PRESIDENT: What the Tribunal wishes to know with reference to the document that they asked you to put to the Witness was how the Witness, explains his answer yesterday which I took down in these words,"Lutze did not write about military training." That was the-answer you gave yesterday with reference to Document 3215 PS. We have a document from Lutze to the Defendant Rosenberg offering his congratulations which refers also to the Fuehrer's decree which assigns all pre and post military training to the SA. Why do you state Lutz did not write with reference to military training ?
THE WITNESS: Your Lordship, that was the question about a newspaper article regarding military training. This article in a paper dealt with What the SA was earring out. That was purely military defensive. In the Fuehrer's decree if I remember rightly, it also says the pre-military education, it may even say "training". I cannot say with certainty, but what is meant is para military, defensive military training. Later, during negations regarding the carrying out of this decree, this conception of pre-military training or education, that is to say , everything which the Army Military Forces were doing should not be done by the SA, but they should nearly prepare everything. The body and spirit should be prepared so that once the men have gone through the school of the SA.
They would be physically suitable to meet the tasks assigned to them by the military, and they would be spiritually prepared to do their military service that was the spirit of the decrees and the deepest spirt of the so-call SA. So you can see that service with arms was not planned in connection with that training,
Q. Are you saying that between the Fuehrer's decree of January and the beginning of the war that there was no pre-military training done ?
When did you start it again ?
A. It was supposed to start wit the discharge of the people who were serving with the Army in 1939, That is when this decree was to become operative. Then the beginning of the war prevented its becoming operative. That was contained in an order from Colonel General Brauchitsch. It came out in the early days of November and also in a letter from Reichsleiter Bormann address to the Chief of Staff. In that letter it was emphasized particularly ,
Q. When did you say it was to come into operation ? Did you say in October When was it due to start ? When was the pre-military training due to start ?
A. 1939,
Q. When.
A. This training was to start after the beginning of war. In other war during November and October, but I do not remember that accurately. Until then preparatory military work had been carried out.
Q. Are you telling the Tribunal it did not start ?
A. I am telling the High Tribunal that the carrying out of that decree was scheduled to start in the autumn of 1939.
Q. Then why did you quote such an extraordinary untruth in your report of June, 1941, which your Lordships will find on Page 118. The pre-military training practised by the SA since the outbreak of war on a voluntary basis in the SA defense groups had been already explained in detail in reports 1 and 2. Those are your first reports of the war regarding the activity of the SA during the war. Then you go on to explain the report including clan target practice, instruction and practice in handling and cleaning rifles, as well as shooting on a range in a field, and further, the throwing of hand grenades under assumed combat conditions.