were killed in Vilna and the people who rounded them up from the ghettos, the people who took them out to be killed, were the SA Detachment in Vilna? these matters and the SA was not participating in these matters. There was no SA at Vilna.
Q Then, we will just have all ok at this affidavit. Will you look at this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you sign this Document that was just put to you - this report?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Would you look at Document D-964, which is an affidavit of Szloma Gol. My Lord, that is GB 597. I am so sorry, My Lord, that is page 55. I beg your Lordship's pardon.
This gentlemen says: "I am a Jew and lived in Vilna, Lithuania. During the German occupation I was in Vilna ghetto. The administration of Vilna ghetto was managed by the SA. The Town Commissioner of Vilna (Stadtkommissar) was an SA officer called Hinkst. The Land Kommissar for Vilna was an SA officer called Wolf. The advisor on Jewish questions was an SA officer called Murer." Wolf in Lithuania?
THE WITNESS: Neither the name Hinkst nor the name Wolf are familiar to me. I have never heard these names and I emphatically deny we ever had an SA group in Vilna at all.
DR. BOEHM: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. These incriminations which the prosecutor is trying to blame on the SA are all tremendous and are obviously unknown to the witness. I should like to ask, if the contents of this affidavit are to be used, that the witness Gol be brought here and examined here. If he is in Nurnberg, he can be called for examination before the court.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: Mr. Gol is here and my friend can ask him any questions the the would like. He can produce the actual articles taken from, the dead bodies of the men who were shot.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this man here in Burnberg?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Mr. Lord, yes he is in Nurnberg. Of these six affidavits, I have kept four and that covers, I think, the principle allegations. I have kept Gol, Beig, Sigall and Kibart. The other two had to go to their work, which has been found for them and My Lord, I felt in view of what they already suffered, it's not quite right to keep them all back. However, I kept four and I submit that the defense has ample opportunity for any cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they all on the same topic?
SIR DAVID MAXWEL FYFE: My Lord, no. They deal with Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen. My Lord, three places.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, do you propose to use or to read all of these affidavits, now, or to use them for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Lord, I was proposing to put the main points of them in for cross examination and on what the affidavits are based. I did not mean to read them through. From these affidavits I have selected about three points to read.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Boehm.
DR. BOEHM: Before we read from this affidavit, first of all, I should like to ask that this affidavit be checked as to its authenticity. This Document is D-964.
THE PRESIDENT: We are considering your application at the moment, that the man should be called for cross-examination. Surely that is sufficient.
DR. BOEHM: No, only with the pre-requisite that this affidavit, which has been submitted is true, authentic and has been signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David has said that the man is here. You can the witness if it is true.
DR. BOEHM: I have no reason to introduce a witness, Mr. President, who did not depose an affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: No one is suggesting that you should introduce him as your witness. Your application is the application which we are now consdering, that is, that he should be brought here for cross-examination, but that does not make him your witness.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, on the prerequisite that he actually deposed the affidavit, only on that hypothesis did I apply to have him brought here.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The original affidavit is before the witness and I am told it was certified to before Major Wurmser. It contains the actual statements, which the deponent made before he signed.
DR. BOEHM: I am objecting for this reason. It is not shown to me on my document that it was actually signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Give us the original. It really would be better, Dr. Boehm, If you would take the trouble to look at the original before you make objections of this sort.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I did not wish to accuse anyone of anything. I only asked that we ascertain and make sure that it is signed, for according to the copy, which I have, it is not signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in the interest of saving time, would it be sufficient if two of these affidavits were used and two of the witnesses were called for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: My Lord, I suggested three since it covers three towns, Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen. I shall willingly restrict myself if the Tribunal will allow these affidavits to be used in cross examination providing the three deponents are called before cross-examination. It would be most convenient if they should be called after this witness has been cross examined and re-examined. deponents, who had to go, dealt with the Schaulen episode. My Lord, I have a witness, I am so sorry. It is my fault. I will do that, my Lord. I must admit, I said Schaulen, it should have been Kaunas. Yes, My Lord, I will put the facts in the affidavit and I mil only use the affidavits in regard to Vilna and Kaunas and both the deponents are here.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, the marshal will have those witnesses ready when the evidence of this witness is finished in order that, they may be called for cross examination if Dr. Boehm wants to question them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, we will do So. They will be here I want to question the witness here with regard to Vilna.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I see it is now twenty-five minutes of twelve. Before you do that, we had better recess.
(A recess was taken.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I have selected three of these witnesses to cover each of the towns: Szloma Gol, who will deal with Vilna, and Kagan who will deal with Kaunas, and Kibart who will deal with Schaulen. examination, and are available when the time comes.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I can forego examining these witnesses, but I have no objections to these affidavits' being used, because in this connection I shall touch upon the subject and clear it up with the witness Juettner. These people have nothing have nothing whatever to do with the SA, and the witness Juettenr will elucidate the situation. They were attached to the Minister of Eastern Affairs, and one would regard these men the same way as he would regard a member of the armed forces who was attached to that ministry. And a member of the armed forces could not be regarded as an SA man, either. So I am not in my way interested in examining these witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Then, Sir David, we do not think they need be called if Dr. Boehm does not want them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I am of course, entirely in Dr. Boehm's hands, and what the Tribunal approves. I want it known that the Prosecution has no objection to calling them, and that they are ready to give evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: You can use the affidavits.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q Witness, heave you a copy in German of D-964?
A D-964: yes, I have it.
Q That is the affidavit of a Mr. Gol. I have read the first and second paragraphs. If you will look at the third paragraph, it says:
"In December, 1943, 80 Jews from the ghetto including four women and myself and my friend Josef Belie were ordered by an SA Sturmfuehrer, whose name I forget, to live in a large pit some distance from the town. This pit had originally been dug for an underground petrol tank. It was circular, 60 meters in diameter, and 4 meters deep.
When we lived in it the top was partially covered with boarding, and there were two wooden rooms partitioned off, also a kitchen and lavatory. We lived there six months altogether before we escaped. The pit was guarded by SA guards about whom I give details below."
You will see in paragraph 5 that he says that the "SA men threw chains into the pit, and the Sturmfuehrer ordered the Jewish foreman (for we were working party) to fasten the chains on us. The chains were fastened round both ankles and round the waist. They weighed 2 kilos each, and we could, only take small steps when wearing them. We were them permanently for 6 months. The SA said that if any man removed the chains he would be hanged. The four women were not chained." Paragraph 10, because that describes the guards:
"The work of digging up the graves and building the pyres was supervised and guarded by about 80 guards. Of those over 50 were SA men, in brown uniforms, armed with pistols and daggers and automatic guns (the guns being always cocked and pointed at us). The other 30 guards consisted partly of Lithuanians and partly of SD and SS. In the course of the work the Lithuanian guards themselves were shot presumably so that they should not say what had been done.
The Commander of the whole place was the SA officer Murer (the expert on Jewish questions) but he only inspected the work from time to time. The SA officer Legal actually commanded on the spot. At night our pit was guarded by 10 or 12 of these guards."
Then he says that the guards "hit us and stabbed us" and that he was knocked over a pile of bodies and that they were only allowed to go sick for two days; if they went sick for mere than that they were shot.
Then he says in paragraph 12, that "of 76 men in the pit, 11 were shot at work." 9 which describe the work. Paragraph 7 says that "the work consisted in digging up mass graves and piling up bodies on to funeral pyres and burning them. I was engaged in digging up the bodies. My friend Belie was engaged in sawing up and arranging the wood."
Paragraph 8 says: "We dug up altogether 68,000 bodies. I know this because two of the Jews in the pit with us were ordered to keep count of the bodies by the Germans; that was their sole job. The bodies were mixed, Jews, Polish priests, Russian Prisoners of war. Amongst those that I dug up I found my own brother. I found his identification papers on him. He had been dead two years when I dug him up because I know that he was in a batch of 10.000 Jews from Vilna ghetto who were shetin September, 1941." layers of wood and bodies and throwing ail over it and burning it. on in Vilna or that there were any SA personnel concerned in it? tion: Do you say that you never heard of these happenings in Vilna or that the SA were concerned in them?
A That is what I am saying, decidely. It is today for the first time that I hear of it and I had nothing whatever to do with it. We had no SA in Lithuania. We only had SA in the former Government General. There were attempts to build it up and there were SA afterwards but we had no SA organization in Lithuania guarding the ghettos and all the property that had to be guarded in this matter as neither the SA leadership or the SA organization bad anything to do with it.
But I could well admit that a misuse of SA uniforms happened here in the organization of the SA as well as on the part of Lithuanians.
Q I see. Your explanation is that they have mistaken somebody wearing a brown shirt. Is that your explanation? Probably wearing a swastika on his arm just to make it more difficult. You are really telling the Tribunal, who have been sitting here for nine months listening to what has happened in these territories, that your explanation is that somebody has mistaken other people wearing brown shirts. Is that your explanation? these events.
Q I only want to put in .. I deedn't occupy time by putting it to the witness in view of what he said .. Document 975 as an additional declaration of Mr. Gol. It will therefore become GB-958 and it explains the procedure by which the gold teeth were taken out of corpses. My Lord, I don't think it is necessary to go into detail because your Lordship has heard of how that procedure was carried out so much and the normal way for doing it. We will just say that the man Muerer personally took the boxes with him. Now I am going to come to Kansas or Kovno. I want you just to tell me: Do you say that you do not know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Kramer, who was Governor of Kaunas?
Q We are mentioning him now and I am asking you, do you say or don't you say that you do not know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Kramer who was Governor of Kaunas or Kovno, a very well place? like the name again. Did you say Kagan or Kramer?
Q Kramer. He was the German Town Governor and an SA Brigaderfuehrer, Kramer.
A I know a Brigaderfuehrer Kramer. Whather he was the governor of Kaunas I do not know.
Q Do you knew an SA Hauptsturmfuehrer called Jordan ?
Q And don't you know that the Town Governor's office in Kaunas was exclusively staffed by SA, even the girls in the office belonging to the SA women's section, wearing SA brown shirts with swastika? Do you say that you never heard of that? either. If Kramer was supposed to be an SA Leader or acting there, then he was not working in his capacity as an SA Leader and the SA, your Lordship, has nothing to do with the whole matter. I should like particularly to emphasize that strongly once again.
Q Well now, let me put two more of these names to you. Do you know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Lenzen? Leader and there I met him. around Kaunas? coming from the SA in a capacity as an SA Leader. He was therefore minister of Eastern forces, that is to say, he did not come under the jurisdiction of the SA if he was working there.
Q I see. Do you say that you hadn't an SA section, I don't know whether it would be a company or a smaller unit, guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas? You have told us, you see, that you had these units who were supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories. Are you swearing that there was not an SA unit guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas?
A We had no SA units which we had organized near Kaunas. I cannot say any more about that. We had organized SA in the former Government General and apart from that we had no SA in the East except for West Prussia, near Posen, an that there could not be any SA there at all.
THE PRESIDENT: For the sake of accuracy, Sir David, I don't think he said they had SA units supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories near Kaunas.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: No, My Lord, I think "in the East" were the words, my Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought he said "within the Reich area."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It was in this report. I will check it. I am so sorry, my Lord, if I have made a mistake. My Lord, what he said was.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got it there, Sir David? Referring to the 23rd of June, 1941, that is the report, he said, "That is the home country. We had 21 groups guarding prisoners of war in the German Reich Area. I mean in what was Germany before the war. I know nothing of the Baltic Provinces."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I agree entirely with that. You Lordship will remember that he goes on to say in the report itself at the top of page 127, he said there were two groups, one at Danzig and another at Posen. Then he said the territory of Upper Silescia was assigned to unit Silescia and the territory of Memel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces (ostland) unit. That was what I had in mind, that there was a Baltic Province Ostland.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he said in the report ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord, I agree it was not quite the same before he put in the report. My Lord, in view of that I will just briefly indicate the contents of this affidavit to your Lordship as the witness says that apart from knowing two of the people he does not know anything about it. First the deponent says he lived in the Ghetto of Kaunas during the German occupation and that he was on the Jewish Council of the Ghetto dealing with statistics and supplies. As representative of the Jews
THE PRESIDENT: We have not got this document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Oh, haven't you, My Lord, I am so sorry. It is D-968, GB-599. I am very sorry, My Lord, it is my fault.
THE PRESIDENT: It is in the book, is it?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It is in the bock, it is 61.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, he goes on to say: "As representative of the Jews for rations, etc., I had to deal directly with the Town Governor's Office (Hauptsturmfuehrer SA Jordan's section). The Town Governor office was exclusively staffed by the SA, even the girls in the office were brown SA uniforms." Then he says; "The German Town Governor was called Kramer, and he was a Brigaderfuehrer SA. Jordan was the Advisor on Jewish Affairs to Kramer.
I know their ranks and that they were in the SA, because they signed the orders which were posted en the Ghetto." Then in paragraph 3 he describes the plundering operation. He says: "It was done exclusively by SA men, Jordan was with them. They all were brown uniforms." They took their property and shot 27 people and then on the 13th of September, that is in the middle of the raid, Jordan and Sturmfuehrer SA Kepen, with Brigaderfuehrer Lenzen, who was Commissioner for the Rural District of Kaunas, standing by, shot three men in his presence. Then he says; "on the 21st or 22nd of September 1941 I was in a labor detachment. I saw about thirty SA men in uniform conducting a group of some 300 Russian prisoners of war. The Russians were quite exhausted, they could barely walk.. Two collapsed and the SA shot them. The SA were beating them all the time. My labor detachment had to bury these Russians." call silly brutality, but it was conducted, making the march out and carry weights for a distance. You will notice that there were about 100 SA men guarding the Joss, armed with automatic pistols.
Then, in paragraph 8, "On the 28th of October, 1941, there was a big 'action' on, in which 10,500 people from the Ghetto were shot. The Ghetto population was first divided into two groups, those for execution and those who were allowed to stay. The sorting was supervised in the morning by a man called Rauka, who was, I think, in the Gestapo or the SD, and later in the day three prominent SA men, Jordan, Kepen and Poschl, came to help him. All these SA men were in uniform. I know the number of the who were shot because my job on the Jewish Council included the rationing for which we had taken a census of the Jews. A new census was taken after these executions".
And next it says how Jordan told him to go and get twenty bodies of the people he had just shot; and 10 says that Jordan asked for 530 intellectuals to work on archives; he was told they were not available. "Thereupon the SA (assisted by others in German uniform which I cannot identify for certain but I think it was SD) seized and shot 530 people at random. The SA personnel present included Jordan, Peschl and Lenzen. My Lord, that is Kaunas. is Schaulen, which your Lordship will find in document D-969 at Page 63 in the same document book. It becomes GB-600 and is an affidavit by a deponent, Leib Kibart. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Schroepfer, S-c-h-r-o-e-p-f-e-r?
Q Did you know an SA Sturmfuehrer called Bub, B-u-b?
Q Did you know a man in the SA whose rank, unfortunately, I haven't got, called Gewecke, G-e-w-e-c-k-e, who became District Commissioner for this area 130 miles south of Riga?
A That is equally unknown to me. The district commissioners, in fact all commissioners, were not employed by the SA. They were furnished by the Ministry for Eastern Affairs and we had no influence on it. remember if you know him. There is no doubt that he exists, We have got captured, documents signed by him. But I want to know, did you know him, Geweck because you are stating that I did not know Kramer and Lenzen and I didn't say that. I merely said -
Q I didn't say that, Witness, and don't let's have any misunderstanding. I was just making quite sure by informing you that there was no doubt that Gewecke was there because his name appears in captured documents, and I wanted you to be quite sure you didn't know him before you gave your answer. You didn't know him?
A No, I didn't know him.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, then I will again state quite shortl In the first two paragraphs the deponent says that he is a leather worker and where he was working. In the third he says that he was cursed and beaten by the SA when he was at work. Then in paragraph 4 he says that Schroepfer was there first and afterwards Bub. And in 5 he said: "It is hard to judge, but I estimate that there must have been 700 to 800 SA men there at the beginning, but they decreased in numbers later. I knew them as SA because they were brow, uniform with Swastika armlets. Later on they often used other Germans in the locality as auxiliaries." Then in 6 he says: "There were 4,500 Jews in the Ghetto, which was very overcrowded. In August 1941 the SA therefore surrounded the whole Ghetto, and numbers of them went into the houses and took out women, children and old men, and put them into lorries land drove them away. I saw all this myself. It was done exclusively by SA. I saw them take children by the hair and throw them into the lorries. I did not see what happened to them but a Lithuanian told me afterwards that they had been driven twenty kilometers away and shot. He said he had seen the SA make them undress and then shoot the with automatic pistols." Then paragraph 7 says they were shot if they took food into the Ghetto and describes the shooting of a master baker who had four or five cigarettes and some sausage and the hanging of this baker. Then paragraph 8 deals with Gewecke, and My Lord, I ask the Tribunal to note: "The District Commissioner in whose courtyard I worked was called Gewecke. I saw his every day. He was in the SA. The SS took over from the SA in September 1943, and the Ghetto then became a working camp." you will see a report from Gewecke -- from Schaulen. My Lord, that is document 3661-PS, which will become GB-601. It is dated the 8th of September, 1941, from Schaulen, where he was Regional Commissioner, to the Reich Commissar for the Eastland (Ostland). My Lord, I understood -- I may be wrong -- that Ostland included Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia only, but that is the position. This is a complaint about an SS Standartenfuehrer called Jeager coming into Schaulen's activities, and after explaining that he had managed to acquire -or rather, that his agent had been acquiring some Jewish silver and gold articles, he then says -- My Lord, this fresh incident merely demonstrates that Jaeger does not consider himself bound by the instructions issued by the Reich Commissar and by the Regional Commissar regarding the seizure of Jewish property and that he meddled in matters -
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, may I interrupt? This document which is now being presented refers to an SS Standartenfuehrer Jaeger, and I don't think the case of the SS is being discussed. I should therefore like to have the document discussed when the case of the SS is being discussed, because it has nothing to do with the SA.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, the evidence is that the signatory of this document is a member of the SA. He was acting as commissioner, and my friend can make what argument he likes on that. He was a member of the SA and here he is protesting against the SS coming in and taking Jewish property, exactly the thing which the evidence states the SA have been doing in this area. My Lord, that is why I submit the document, as a useful corroboration.
DR. BOEHM: This man was not employed as a member of the SA in that territory where he worked as a commissar.
THE PRESIDENT: We have just had evidence that he was and the witness in the box says he doesn't know, so I don't know on what authority you say that he was not.
DR. BOEHM: It may be that he had been one, but he wasn't there in his capacity as a member of the SA: he was there as a member of the Ministry for Eastern Affairs. The SA wasn't doing anything; they were not employing people there.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a matter which the Tribunal has got to consider. We will consider the evidence of this witness, who says there was no SA in the particular place at the time. We will also consider the evidence of the deponent in the affidavit, who says that this man Gewecke was there in SA uniform with a lot of other SA men. That doesn't make this document inadmissible, which is a captured document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Lord, the next paragraph is the only matter which I want to trouble the Tribunal with: "If the SS continues to overreach itself in this fashion, I, as Regional Commissar, must refuse to accept responsibility for the orderly confiscation (Erfassung) of Jewish property."
THE PRESIDENT: Now I suppose that Dr. Boehm's argument upon that would be that this witness, Gewecke, was acting as Regional Commissioner and not as an agent of the SS.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: My Lord, that is a perfectly proper argument for Dr. Boehm to make. Of course it is important, when your Lordship has these affidavits in which this man is dealt with, that one should be able to tie it in with a captured document. That is really what I wanted to do. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: a moment. You said that the only SA organization in this area was a unit former by the Defendant Frank in the Government General, I think in April, 1942; the the SA unit of the Government General was formed under the orders of Lutze and the command was taken over by the Defendant Frank. That is right, isn't it? And you said that he had a special staff for the actual carrying on of the unit which, I think, was in the hands of two men called Selz and Friedemun if I caught your evidence right. Is that so?
A No, it isn't correct that way. First of all, those were not the name:
Q If those are not the names, please blame me. I took them down as I understood them. You tell us the right names. It is my fault entirely if I he got them wrong. What were the names?
A I was just going to finish my sentence. The right names were Pelz and Kuehnemund, and this leadership staff was not under the jurisdiction of the former Governor General Frank. They were directly under the Chief of Staff he was issuing the orders for them. Frank had merely been appointed as the leader of the SA in the way I have already described. As to the other affidavits, I may, I hope, have an opportunity to state my views later. Otherwise -
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, Your Lordship will find -- it is in evidence, in 3216-PS, US Exhibit 424, the extract from "Das Archiv", giving that foundation of the unit in the Government General. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q What I want you to tell the Tribunal, Witness, is: What was the purpose of forming a unit in the Government General?
A There were two purposes; but first of all, may I put a question with reference to the affidavits of Kovno, Schaulen and Riga, that I shall have to continue to make a statement which is necessary to discover the truth, and I wanted to ask whether I may do so now or whether I can do so after the question you have put has been answered?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that it will be better for your counsel to put questions to you in re-examination upon that evidence. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: of forming a unit of the SA in the Government General in 1942?
A. There were two purposes. First of all, the Reich Germans who were working in the Fovernment General should be kept together in a comradely way, as far as they were members of the SA, and certain people of German origin, who were inclined, should later join the SA, and should be brought into the community and fitted into it by teaching German customs, the German language, etc., and bring it nearer to them; and also demonstrate to them the comradeship exercised in the SA.
Q. I want to get that clear. You said, it was an entirely peaceful purpose in the Government General. Do you adhere to what you have told the Tribunal that there were no other SA formations operating in the eastern territories, and particularly, I ask you about the territory Ostland, that is, as I understand it, including the old countries of Lithuania, Esthonia and Latvia.. I have already put certain evidence to you, but I want to get this clear. Are prepared for your proof, to be judged on the fact -- on your answer to this question: Do you say that there were no SA units operating in Ostland?
A. I am prepared to answer that question absolutely clearly. The highest leaders of the SA in this territory Ostland, which you have just described by saying Lithuania and Esthonia, did not organize a SA there. A German SA was not formed there. If an SA was being formed there, or supposed to have been formed there, then it was a will organization which had nothing to do wit the SA leadership, and nothing is known to me, namely, that the SA had some organization there.
Q. That's your answer. My Lord. I wonder if the Tribunal would look for a moment just at a part of the document 1475-PS, which is also R-135, and it is Document Book 16-B, page 81, United States Exhibit 289 -- My Lord, it comes just after page 81 in the Book. It's 81-A. It should be. My Lord, would you give the witness a copy? My Lord, that is the protest of the Reichkommissar for Ostland to the Defendant Rosenberg, and the Tribunal is probably familiar with that bit. The first page is a protest against killing off so many Jews in the "Cottbus" project because they would have been useful for slave labor, and, in any case, the locking of men, women and children into barns and setting fire to them doesn't appear to be a suitable method for combat bands.
That is the effect of that. Now, My Lord, there is a catch to that. On the next page, the report of the 5th of June, 1943, from the General Kommissar of White Ruthenia to the defendant Rosenberg, through the Reich Commissioner for Eastland, and my Lord, it may be that the territory is slightly out of that mentioned, but at any rate, I'll make it perfectly clear. My Lord, it begins by saying "The result of the operation, 4,500 enemy dead and 5,000 dead, suspected of belonging to bands, who apparently were the people who had been looked up and burned in barns." Then, My Lord, below it gives the booty, and then the next paragraph: "The operation affects the territory of the general District of White Ruthenia in the area of Borissow. It concerns in particular the two counties of Begomie and Pleschtschamizy. At present, the police troops, together with the army, have advanced to Lake Palik, and have reached the whole front of the Beresina. To continuance of the battles takes place in the rear zone of the army." from 4,500 enemy dead. Now, my Lord, it is the next sentence: "By order of the Chief of Band-Combatting, SS Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach" -- my Lord, that is the officer who gave evidence before the Tribunal some months ago -"units of the--" Witness, I ask you to note this: "Units of the Wehrmannschaften have also participated in the operation. SA Standartenfuehrer Kunze was in command of the Wehrmannschaften." Now, Witness, are you going to tell the Tribunal that the SA Wehrmannschaften were not a section of the SA and that the Standartenfuehrer Kommissar was not operating as a member of the SA?
A. Yes, I should like very much to answer that, very clearly. First of all, it doesn't say "Wehrmannschaften SA". It says "Wehrmannschaften".
Q. Just a moment, Are you suggesting that Wehrmannschaften doesn't mean SA Wehrmannschaften? That it is not a unit of the SA -- is that your answer?
A. In this particular ease, they were not units of the SA. That I am stating with all certainty. They were not SA people. They were not formed by the SA. They were not trained by the SA. If such Wehrmannschaften existed there at all, and the SA Standartenfuehrer Commissioner supposedly led the Wehrmannschaften formed there, the he certainly didn't lead them in his capacity as SA leader, but in the framework of the eastern administration.
Q. But he was in command of the Wehrmannschaften. Are you saying that when you have got a well-known SA formation, the Wehrmannschaften commanded by a SA Standartenfuehrer, you are telling the Tribunal that they weren't operating as SA at all, is that your evidence? You really ask the Tribunal to believe that? All right, I am putting another document to you, my Lord. I will ready another document to you, my Lord. If you will turn to Page-64-A, you will find --
This I do not. I have something to say about this to the Tribunal. That was a fact. Wehrmannschaften is a very definite conception. There were Wehrmannschaften elsewhere too, which had nothing to do with the SA either, and apparently here we are concerned with such a case. We did not have any Wehrmannschaften there. The Standartenfuehrer Commissioner was not acting as an SA leader when he was there. As far as the loading, and as far as the organization is concerned, the events at Schaulen, Riga and Kovno had nothing whatsoever to do with these things.
Q. No, witness, just do be colorful before you answer this: Do you say that there were no SA Einsatz Commanders securing forced labor inside the Government General? That is a perfectly simple question. Do you say that there were no SA Einsatz Commanders collecting forced labor inside the Government General?
A. The SA didn't. No Einsatz commanders at all.
Q. Now, I suggest to you -
A. SA leadership that is.
Q. I will ask you to look as Document D-970, my Lord; that will become GB-602, and your Lordship will find, it at page 64-A. My Lord, this is a report to the defendant Frank, as Government General, dated the 25th of September, 1944. The subject is: The Priority of the Carmelite Monastery of Czerna, who was shot at by one of the SA Einsatz Commanders mentioned. Let me put it this way. "The incident under consideration took place within the framework of the action for obtaining people for the carrying out of special building plans in the district of Ilkenau.
It came to the knowledge of the sub-Regional Commander of the Security Police and SD in Cracow via the branch office of Kressendorf and the strong point of Wolbron. As the place where the deed was committed lies within the area of the Einstazstab of Ilkenau, the investigation were carried out by the Regional State Police Headquarters at Kattowitz -branch post Ilkenau. The results of the investigations provided the following facts: area in question within the period laid down, was made doubtful by the fact that the various communities did not provide the number of workers imposed on them. ment composed of 12 SA men orders to bring in workers from the various villages The execution of this task by this SA Einsatzkommando was in any case carried out by them in such a way that they first approached the village beadle and presented the demand. Then it goes on to describe how when it was refused, they searched the houses. Some of the inhabitants offered resistance when the houses were searched, and these had to be broken by the use of arms. "In view of the fact that partisans has several times appeared in this area during recent times, the SA men reckoned that partisans were living in the villages during the day disguised as civilians. Besides this, when workers were obtained, the local conditions were taken into account." That's the first one, collecting forced labor from this village.
Now we have an other SA Commando :
"The Prior of Czerna Monastery was seized by members of the SA Einsatzkommando in Nowojewa Gora. He was told to remain with the lien of the SA Einsatzkommando for the time being. While the members of the detachment were in a house in order to search it for workers, the prior--according to what the Regional State Police Headquarters Kattowitz established--used this opportunity, which seemed suitable to him, to escape. As he did not stop when shouted at several times and after some warning shots-had been fired, but on the contrary, rah even faster and tried to escape, arms were used.
"The Prior had been arrested because he was alleged to have made negative statements to other workers about the Ostwall -Eastern Defensive Line-- and the building undertaking, which tended to influence the laborers' already weak will to work in a still more unfavorable manner. It was intended to take the priest first to the construction staff at Nielepiece and from there to the office of the Security Police." at Kattowitz, steps are to be taken to insure that in future such operations are carried out by SA men but by police officials." ago that there weren't any SA Einsatzkommandos and that they never searches for forced labor in the Government General? Why did you say that; you know it was untrue, why did you say it?
A. That is not untrue. I Will repeat my testimony once again, and I stick to it, namely that the SA did not have Einsatzkommandos. These SA men here were probably called in by the source furnishing this report, and they were under cumpulsory service -I have no other explanation-- in the capacity of auxiliary policeman The reporters source merely describes the auxiliary police units, and describes them as Einsatzkommandos, which is a wrong usage of the language. As far as we are concerned, we did not invent that designation and we did not have such units or such formations.