DR. BOEHM: No, I only wanted to ask a few questions based on this document and I want to put these questions -
THE PRESIDENT: You cannot do that until you have put the document in evident If you want to put it is evidence then you must put it in evidence. If you do mo want to then -- just listen to me. You can deal with it in re-examination. If the document is put in in cross-examination you can deal with it then. Otherwise, if you want to put it in evidence now subject to its admissibility, you can do it and take the responsibility for it.
Dr. BOEHM: Mr. President, that would be true if, in cross-examination, that affidavit would be submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is not submitted we shall not look at it, we shall not know anything about it.
Dr. BOEHM: Mr. President, I gather from that that if this affidavit is not submitted in cross-examination that it may not be submitted afterwards either, The of course, the procedure is quite clear. Then I do not now need to deal with it.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. At any rate, if there was an application the Prosecution to submit the affidavit in rebuttal you would have an opportunity of answering to it after that, in these circumstances.
DR. BOEHM: Then I should like to ask the Tribunal to permi me to call the witness whom I had in mind so that he can define his position ad so that I might interrogate him.
THE PRESIDENT: No, either you put it in evidence your self now or else you wait for re-examination.
Sir David, I do not know what all this is about. Dr. Boer does not seem to know what the position is.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: My Lord, it may be-- I did no quite catch the name of the deponent, but it may be that, this is one of the affidavits with regard to which I applied to the Tribunal a day or two ago and I war going to put them in after the defense documents in general rebuttal. one of those I mentioned to the Tribunal a few days ago.
Aug-14-M-RT-4-3 Karr
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you can put it in on cross-examination, can you not
SIR DAVID MAXWEIL FYFFE: My Lord, I can quite easily.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that not be the most convenient course? Then Dr. Boehm can re-examine upon it. He has had an opportunity, apparently, of looking at it
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFFE: Yes, My Lord, I will do that.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, the thing I wanted to avoid was the situation what would have arisen if the document had been submitted after the testimony of my last witness so that I would not have had an opportunity of refuting the document BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Mr. Witness, now I should like to put my final question to you.
Did the political aims of the SA have a criminal character? aims, all those things did not at any time have any fear of the light of day. I SA leadership aid not pursue any criminal aims and did not know of the criminal aims of any other agencies. to its defamation as a criminal organization. The SA, Your Lordship, had many followers, in the Reich, that is the former Reich and beyond its boundaries as The SA had opponents as well.
Some of these opponents raised their voices an out of hate or disapproval created prejudices against the SA, not what was true but merely based on prejudice, which as is well known, has brought many a human as a cropper before history. two and a half decades belonged to the SA would, be stamped as criminals.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: Mr. President, for these five to six million men and for the several millions of families of these members I can, with a straight gaze and un oath, state that never did the SA have a criminal character. fact that which you have done you stand behind bravely, come what may, what the danger may be and that you are not afraid of anything, not even heath. The only thing you should, fear is shame and by shame I mean if you try to wiggle out of ye responsibility in that you and your own life or if you become untruthful. In that connection, Your Lordship, my conscience is clear.
ness of the SA, I can meet the highest judge.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the withes
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution desire to cross examine? BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: against the people of the occupied territory? Atrocities? territories occupied by Germany?
Q That is a perfectly simple question. You have made your speeches. Now answer "yes" or "no" to the question that the SA had anything to do with the atrocities against the people of the occupied territories.
A I am of the intention to give a time answer; therefore, I will have to -
Q Can't you answer "yes" or "no"?
THE PRESIDENT: You can explain afterwards, you know. If you answer "yes" or "no", you can then give your explanation. countries.
Q I see. Well, now, I want you to look at your report on the SA during the war, which the Lord Tribunal will find in document book 16-D at page 113.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is number 4011 PS, and will bee Exhibit GB 596.
Q (Continuing): Now, witness, just before you look at that, do you remember saying before the Commission: "At the beginning of the war with Pola the SA Group Sudeten carried out transports of prisoners of war into the camps Other SA Groups in the East may have been used for similar purposes later on. The SA Leaders and the SA as an organization had nothing to do with this question." Do you remember saying that? Page 336 of the transcript. One of your groups carried out transports of prisoners of war into camps and other SA Groups may have been used for similar purposes. Do you remember saying the to the Commissioner? If you would take your mind from the document and just address it to the point as to whether you said that before the Commission, it would help.
Do you remember saying that before the Commission? dispute today, that the SA Group Sudeten on the instructions of the Wehrmacht transported prisoners of war in the Polish campaign; but, Mr. Prosecutor, you asked me about the treatment of the population in the occupied country.
Q I got your answer to that. We must take it by stages. You admit you said that before the Commission, that the "SA Groups carried out transports of prisoners of war into camps. Other SA Groups in the East may have been used for similar purposes." Do you remember saying that? I am only putting in the record what you said. You admit you said it?
Q Right. Now, let's look at your report. This is a report made by you on the 23 of June 1941 and you see that after a general paragraph -- My Lord, if you'd turn to Page 116, it is page 4 of the original document -- and Witness, if you'd go on to the heading "Section 4 A". You see -- "The SA-men who have remained, in the communications zone primarily care for the maintenance of the SA-organization. All units, even the smallest ones are alive, and the men willingly sacrifice their spare time for duty in the party. This includes assistance to the political leaders in the educational and orientation tasks, propaganda and counter-propaganda, preparations for meetings, control of the population in the frontier areas." Is that correct, what you wrote in 1941?
A It is true exactly for the Hinterland as the home country. It is not occupied areas.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Turn to Page 117 of the English version, My Lord. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q I think it is page 123, Witness, of your version. Have you got 123: It is page 5 of the original. It is the next page, Page 5. You see under "C" "The duty achievements of the SA, which deal with direct support of the armed forces and which benefit the power of German arms, have developed in all directions. At the time this report is written and/or in the previous weeks the following were employed;" Then, the second of those -- "21 groups of SA-men for guarding prisoners."
Where were the 21 groups guarding prisoners? months. You see, you say that, that is, at the time the report is written, in the previous few weeks, where were they guarding the prisoners then? the beginning and everything is enumerated, even the Party things done by the
Q Didn't you hear what I put to yen, and can't you read your own report This says; "At the time this report is written or in the previous weeks --" that is, in June, 1941. It says they were guarding prisoners. I am asking you, where were they guarding prisoners?
A You can't quite look at it that way. Perhaps the 21 SA-groups were used for the guarding of prisoners of war. It says among the 21 groups of SA
THE PRESIDENT: The question was. Where did you Say they were guarding prisoners. There is nothing about the number 21. Where was it that they were guarding prisoners? and they were given to the Wehrmacht for the supervision of -
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by the Reich area? Do you mean Germany as it was before the war again?
A Yes. It is possible that in West Prussia, or the Government General prisoner-of-war camps did exist, but that is beyond my knowledge.
Q And in the Baltic Provinces?
Q Well, we can a fresh your memory in just a moment. Not to leave this document, if you will look at the next page, on page -
THE PRESIDENT: Before you pass onto that.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Your Lordship, pleases.
THE PRESIDENT: The passage just before "5", perhaps you ought to put it to him.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I am ready for it, Your Lordship.
BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q If you will look just before "B", you will see the words "Numerous SA-leaders and sub-leaders were furnished to the German Labor Front for duty in the Todt organization", is that right?
A What page is that, please? guarding the camps. It says: "Numerous SA-leaders and sub-leaders were furnished to the German Labor Front for duty in the Todt organization."
Q Were they looking for forced labor? withdrawn from the authority of the SA. heading, "The premilitary training." Now, you see what is said there, and this is the second year of the war. This is the second paragraph, after the dealing with the SA war defense groups: "This educational work is primarily to assist the fighting spirit, to retain and fortify the willingness to fight, and to harden the National-Socialist communal idea in German men to become an uncompromising testimonial to the comradeship in arms." Then you give an account of the training, including "signals and target practice, instruction and practice in handling of rifles, as well as shooting at the range and in the field, and furthermore the throwing of hand-grenades, and so on."
Now, Witness, you are very familiar with those complications. I suggest to you that that training which is set out in your third report in the second year of the war is exactly the same training as is set out in your reports in the Training Directives of 1943, 1938, and 1939. It is the same training as the SA had been giving to its membership for the last 7 years almost word for word, isn't it? Isn't that exactly the sane words contained in all your training directives?
Q I Will put the training directives in in due course. That is your answer, you say that is not the same. I suggest that that is a deliberate untruth, and that this report covers the same ground, using practically the same language as your reports in 1934, '38 -- your Training Directives in '34, '38 and '39. your voracity, do you still say that that report is not the same as the SA Training Directives in '34, '38, and '39? Do you or do you not?
Q I am not asking you how the service was handled. I am asking you on the contents of the Training Directives, and I am putting to you a perfectly clear question. Isn't the training contained in this report, in the two years after the beginning of the war, exactly the same as the training lead down to the Training Directives of the years '34, '38, and '39? Now, do you want to maintain your answer that it isn't? During the war we did everything so as the defense power of the German people be strengthened. Anything else I cannot tell you. Therefore, I must arrive at a "no". What is set down here is something different from what we did before the war. judge them. Now, turn over to page 15 of the original.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is page 127 of the book. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q Now, do you see the heading, "Work done by SA in regained territories"? You got that, page 15?
Q "Work done by the SA in regained territories. The two SA groups 'Vistule', with headquarters at Danzig, and 'War the' with headquarters at Posen were formed in the East. The territory of Upper-Silesia was assigned to unit Silesia, the territory of Hemel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces, (Ostland) unit."
I ask you to notice that "Ostland unit".
"Very soon the SA units formed a network of solid strong-points for the National-Socialist movement. The Vistula unit comprises 15 Standarten with 50 companies (Stuermen) the War the unit 26 (Standarten), counting 684 companies (Stuermen). In these regions also as in combat, --" note these words -- "als as in combat, the SA was the assault-unit for the Party. It assists in collecting German manpower, in strengthening it and bringing it into alignment according to National-Socialist principles. In that respect it was often necessary to start by teaching the German language and then explaining the basic ideas of National Socialism. Many young racial Germans were trained as SA assistant leaders in SA schools. In these regions also the SA service. practically sneaking, is directed towards strengthening the defensive forces. It was therefore necessary to overcome the inferiority complexes of the racial Germans, the result of Polish suppression, and to bring their external appearance and bearing into keeping with SA standards. Then only was it possible to begin the real military training. The work of the SA in the West it also similar to that in the East. There it was possible in a short time to bring into the SA an important part of the male population through the recruiting of former German soldiers of the World War. The leaders of the 'Standarten' are predominantly Reich German SA-leaders. The 'Sturmbanne' and 'Stuerme' are practically without exception led by Alsatians who have received special training in a special SA school in the Reich. Reich German SA-leaders and men stand at their side to advise and help." leave the West with this one question.
I am going to ask you quite a lot about the east, however, I will leave the west with this one question. Did you mean by that paragraph that the SA was doing its best to help in the Germanization of Alsace? and good character, but other teachings played no role in our territory.
Q I would like you to look at the procedure. The chief of staff, that was Lutze in 1941. He was still alive then. In the next paragraph, it states, "The Chief of Staff visited these territories in the East and "West, besides numerous inspections is other parts of the Reich, just as the period of this report and gained a clear insight into the service, not only in the main cities, but particularly in the small and smallest garrisons of the SA." these visits, that is, yourself? Did you ever go to Vilna? SA, which you spoke of this morning. Did you know an SA officer called Hinkst, who was the staff commandant at Vilna?
A What is the name?
Q Just think. You say you don't remember him at Vilna?
A No, I don't know him. known as the SA Kaserne, the SA Barracks. Did you know that? active in Vilna, whether it was the SA or some other agency. ing group in Vilna, but they did not have to do quite as big a job as the SA, however, they killed 10,000 Jews in the autumn of 1941? You say you never heard of that?
were killed in Vilna and the people who rounded them up from the ghettos, the people who took them out to be killed, were the SA Detachment in Vilna? these matters and the SA was not participating in these matters. There was no SA at Vilna.
Q Then, we will just have all ok at this affidavit. Will you look at this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you sign this Document that was just put to you - this report?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Would you look at Document D-964, which is an affidavit of Szloma Gol. My Lord, that is GB 597. I am so sorry, My Lord, that is page 55. I beg your Lordship's pardon.
This gentlemen says: "I am a Jew and lived in Vilna, Lithuania. During the German occupation I was in Vilna ghetto. The administration of Vilna ghetto was managed by the SA. The Town Commissioner of Vilna (Stadtkommissar) was an SA officer called Hinkst. The Land Kommissar for Vilna was an SA officer called Wolf. The advisor on Jewish questions was an SA officer called Murer." Wolf in Lithuania?
THE WITNESS: Neither the name Hinkst nor the name Wolf are familiar to me. I have never heard these names and I emphatically deny we ever had an SA group in Vilna at all.
DR. BOEHM: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. These incriminations which the prosecutor is trying to blame on the SA are all tremendous and are obviously unknown to the witness. I should like to ask, if the contents of this affidavit are to be used, that the witness Gol be brought here and examined here. If he is in Nurnberg, he can be called for examination before the court.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: Mr. Gol is here and my friend can ask him any questions the the would like. He can produce the actual articles taken from, the dead bodies of the men who were shot.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this man here in Burnberg?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Mr. Lord, yes he is in Nurnberg. Of these six affidavits, I have kept four and that covers, I think, the principle allegations. I have kept Gol, Beig, Sigall and Kibart. The other two had to go to their work, which has been found for them and My Lord, I felt in view of what they already suffered, it's not quite right to keep them all back. However, I kept four and I submit that the defense has ample opportunity for any cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Are they all on the same topic?
SIR DAVID MAXWEL FYFE: My Lord, no. They deal with Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen. My Lord, three places.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, do you propose to use or to read all of these affidavits, now, or to use them for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Lord, I was proposing to put the main points of them in for cross examination and on what the affidavits are based. I did not mean to read them through. From these affidavits I have selected about three points to read.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Boehm.
DR. BOEHM: Before we read from this affidavit, first of all, I should like to ask that this affidavit be checked as to its authenticity. This Document is D-964.
THE PRESIDENT: We are considering your application at the moment, that the man should be called for cross-examination. Surely that is sufficient.
DR. BOEHM: No, only with the pre-requisite that this affidavit, which has been submitted is true, authentic and has been signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David has said that the man is here. You can the witness if it is true.
DR. BOEHM: I have no reason to introduce a witness, Mr. President, who did not depose an affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: No one is suggesting that you should introduce him as your witness. Your application is the application which we are now consdering, that is, that he should be brought here for cross-examination, but that does not make him your witness.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, on the prerequisite that he actually deposed the affidavit, only on that hypothesis did I apply to have him brought here.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The original affidavit is before the witness and I am told it was certified to before Major Wurmser. It contains the actual statements, which the deponent made before he signed.
DR. BOEHM: I am objecting for this reason. It is not shown to me on my document that it was actually signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Give us the original. It really would be better, Dr. Boehm, If you would take the trouble to look at the original before you make objections of this sort.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I did not wish to accuse anyone of anything. I only asked that we ascertain and make sure that it is signed, for according to the copy, which I have, it is not signed.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in the interest of saving time, would it be sufficient if two of these affidavits were used and two of the witnesses were called for cross-examination?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FIFE: My Lord, I suggested three since it covers three towns, Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen. I shall willingly restrict myself if the Tribunal will allow these affidavits to be used in cross examination providing the three deponents are called before cross-examination. It would be most convenient if they should be called after this witness has been cross examined and re-examined. deponents, who had to go, dealt with the Schaulen episode. My Lord, I have a witness, I am so sorry. It is my fault. I will do that, my Lord. I must admit, I said Schaulen, it should have been Kaunas. Yes, My Lord, I will put the facts in the affidavit and I mil only use the affidavits in regard to Vilna and Kaunas and both the deponents are here.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, the marshal will have those witnesses ready when the evidence of this witness is finished in order that, they may be called for cross examination if Dr. Boehm wants to question them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, we will do So. They will be here I want to question the witness here with regard to Vilna.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I see it is now twenty-five minutes of twelve. Before you do that, we had better recess.
(A recess was taken.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I have selected three of these witnesses to cover each of the towns: Szloma Gol, who will deal with Vilna, and Kagan who will deal with Kaunas, and Kibart who will deal with Schaulen. examination, and are available when the time comes.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I can forego examining these witnesses, but I have no objections to these affidavits' being used, because in this connection I shall touch upon the subject and clear it up with the witness Juettner. These people have nothing have nothing whatever to do with the SA, and the witness Juettenr will elucidate the situation. They were attached to the Minister of Eastern Affairs, and one would regard these men the same way as he would regard a member of the armed forces who was attached to that ministry. And a member of the armed forces could not be regarded as an SA man, either. So I am not in my way interested in examining these witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Then, Sir David, we do not think they need be called if Dr. Boehm does not want them.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I am of course, entirely in Dr. Boehm's hands, and what the Tribunal approves. I want it known that the Prosecution has no objection to calling them, and that they are ready to give evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: You can use the affidavits.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases. BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:
Q Witness, heave you a copy in German of D-964?
A D-964: yes, I have it.
Q That is the affidavit of a Mr. Gol. I have read the first and second paragraphs. If you will look at the third paragraph, it says:
"In December, 1943, 80 Jews from the ghetto including four women and myself and my friend Josef Belie were ordered by an SA Sturmfuehrer, whose name I forget, to live in a large pit some distance from the town. This pit had originally been dug for an underground petrol tank. It was circular, 60 meters in diameter, and 4 meters deep.
When we lived in it the top was partially covered with boarding, and there were two wooden rooms partitioned off, also a kitchen and lavatory. We lived there six months altogether before we escaped. The pit was guarded by SA guards about whom I give details below."
You will see in paragraph 5 that he says that the "SA men threw chains into the pit, and the Sturmfuehrer ordered the Jewish foreman (for we were working party) to fasten the chains on us. The chains were fastened round both ankles and round the waist. They weighed 2 kilos each, and we could, only take small steps when wearing them. We were them permanently for 6 months. The SA said that if any man removed the chains he would be hanged. The four women were not chained." Paragraph 10, because that describes the guards:
"The work of digging up the graves and building the pyres was supervised and guarded by about 80 guards. Of those over 50 were SA men, in brown uniforms, armed with pistols and daggers and automatic guns (the guns being always cocked and pointed at us). The other 30 guards consisted partly of Lithuanians and partly of SD and SS. In the course of the work the Lithuanian guards themselves were shot presumably so that they should not say what had been done.
The Commander of the whole place was the SA officer Murer (the expert on Jewish questions) but he only inspected the work from time to time. The SA officer Legal actually commanded on the spot. At night our pit was guarded by 10 or 12 of these guards."
Then he says that the guards "hit us and stabbed us" and that he was knocked over a pile of bodies and that they were only allowed to go sick for two days; if they went sick for mere than that they were shot.
Then he says in paragraph 12, that "of 76 men in the pit, 11 were shot at work." 9 which describe the work. Paragraph 7 says that "the work consisted in digging up mass graves and piling up bodies on to funeral pyres and burning them. I was engaged in digging up the bodies. My friend Belie was engaged in sawing up and arranging the wood."
Paragraph 8 says: "We dug up altogether 68,000 bodies. I know this because two of the Jews in the pit with us were ordered to keep count of the bodies by the Germans; that was their sole job. The bodies were mixed, Jews, Polish priests, Russian Prisoners of war. Amongst those that I dug up I found my own brother. I found his identification papers on him. He had been dead two years when I dug him up because I know that he was in a batch of 10.000 Jews from Vilna ghetto who were shetin September, 1941." layers of wood and bodies and throwing ail over it and burning it. on in Vilna or that there were any SA personnel concerned in it? tion: Do you say that you never heard of these happenings in Vilna or that the SA were concerned in them?
A That is what I am saying, decidely. It is today for the first time that I hear of it and I had nothing whatever to do with it. We had no SA in Lithuania. We only had SA in the former Government General. There were attempts to build it up and there were SA afterwards but we had no SA organization in Lithuania guarding the ghettos and all the property that had to be guarded in this matter as neither the SA leadership or the SA organization bad anything to do with it.
But I could well admit that a misuse of SA uniforms happened here in the organization of the SA as well as on the part of Lithuanians.
Q I see. Your explanation is that they have mistaken somebody wearing a brown shirt. Is that your explanation? Probably wearing a swastika on his arm just to make it more difficult. You are really telling the Tribunal, who have been sitting here for nine months listening to what has happened in these territories, that your explanation is that somebody has mistaken other people wearing brown shirts. Is that your explanation? these events.
Q I only want to put in .. I deedn't occupy time by putting it to the witness in view of what he said .. Document 975 as an additional declaration of Mr. Gol. It will therefore become GB-958 and it explains the procedure by which the gold teeth were taken out of corpses. My Lord, I don't think it is necessary to go into detail because your Lordship has heard of how that procedure was carried out so much and the normal way for doing it. We will just say that the man Muerer personally took the boxes with him. Now I am going to come to Kansas or Kovno. I want you just to tell me: Do you say that you do not know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Kramer, who was Governor of Kaunas?
Q We are mentioning him now and I am asking you, do you say or don't you say that you do not know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Kramer who was Governor of Kaunas or Kovno, a very well place? like the name again. Did you say Kagan or Kramer?
Q Kramer. He was the German Town Governor and an SA Brigaderfuehrer, Kramer.
A I know a Brigaderfuehrer Kramer. Whather he was the governor of Kaunas I do not know.
Q Do you knew an SA Hauptsturmfuehrer called Jordan ?
Q And don't you know that the Town Governor's office in Kaunas was exclusively staffed by SA, even the girls in the office belonging to the SA women's section, wearing SA brown shirts with swastika? Do you say that you never heard of that? either. If Kramer was supposed to be an SA Leader or acting there, then he was not working in his capacity as an SA Leader and the SA, your Lordship, has nothing to do with the whole matter. I should like particularly to emphasize that strongly once again.
Q Well now, let me put two more of these names to you. Do you know an SA Brigaderfuehrer called Lenzen? Leader and there I met him. around Kaunas? coming from the SA in a capacity as an SA Leader. He was therefore minister of Eastern forces, that is to say, he did not come under the jurisdiction of the SA if he was working there.
Q I see. Do you say that you hadn't an SA section, I don't know whether it would be a company or a smaller unit, guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas? You have told us, you see, that you had these units who were supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories. Are you swearing that there was not an SA unit guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas?
A We had no SA units which we had organized near Kaunas. I cannot say any more about that. We had organized SA in the former Government General and apart from that we had no SA in the East except for West Prussia, near Posen, an that there could not be any SA there at all.
THE PRESIDENT: For the sake of accuracy, Sir David, I don't think he said they had SA units supporting the Wehrmacht in these territories near Kaunas.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: No, My Lord, I think "in the East" were the words, my Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought he said "within the Reich area."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It was in this report. I will check it. I am so sorry, my Lord, if I have made a mistake. My Lord, what he said was.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got it there, Sir David? Referring to the 23rd of June, 1941, that is the report, he said, "That is the home country. We had 21 groups guarding prisoners of war in the German Reich Area. I mean in what was Germany before the war. I know nothing of the Baltic Provinces."
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I agree entirely with that. You Lordship will remember that he goes on to say in the report itself at the top of page 127, he said there were two groups, one at Danzig and another at Posen. Then he said the territory of Upper Silescia was assigned to unit Silescia and the territory of Memel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces (ostland) unit. That was what I had in mind, that there was a Baltic Province Ostland.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he said in the report ...
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord, I agree it was not quite the same before he put in the report. My Lord, in view of that I will just briefly indicate the contents of this affidavit to your Lordship as the witness says that apart from knowing two of the people he does not know anything about it. First the deponent says he lived in the Ghetto of Kaunas during the German occupation and that he was on the Jewish Council of the Ghetto dealing with statistics and supplies. As representative of the Jews
THE PRESIDENT: We have not got this document.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Oh, haven't you, My Lord, I am so sorry. It is D-968, GB-599. I am very sorry, My Lord, it is my fault.
THE PRESIDENT: It is in the book, is it?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It is in the bock, it is 61.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, he goes on to say: "As representative of the Jews for rations, etc., I had to deal directly with the Town Governor's Office (Hauptsturmfuehrer SA Jordan's section). The Town Governor office was exclusively staffed by the SA, even the girls in the office were brown SA uniforms." Then he says; "The German Town Governor was called Kramer, and he was a Brigaderfuehrer SA. Jordan was the Advisor on Jewish Affairs to Kramer.
I know their ranks and that they were in the SA, because they signed the orders which were posted en the Ghetto." Then in paragraph 3 he describes the plundering operation. He says: "It was done exclusively by SA men, Jordan was with them. They all were brown uniforms." They took their property and shot 27 people and then on the 13th of September, that is in the middle of the raid, Jordan and Sturmfuehrer SA Kepen, with Brigaderfuehrer Lenzen, who was Commissioner for the Rural District of Kaunas, standing by, shot three men in his presence. Then he says; "on the 21st or 22nd of September 1941 I was in a labor detachment. I saw about thirty SA men in uniform conducting a group of some 300 Russian prisoners of war. The Russians were quite exhausted, they could barely walk.. Two collapsed and the SA shot them. The SA were beating them all the time. My labor detachment had to bury these Russians." call silly brutality, but it was conducted, making the march out and carry weights for a distance. You will notice that there were about 100 SA men guarding the Joss, armed with automatic pistols.
Then, in paragraph 8, "On the 28th of October, 1941, there was a big 'action' on, in which 10,500 people from the Ghetto were shot. The Ghetto population was first divided into two groups, those for execution and those who were allowed to stay. The sorting was supervised in the morning by a man called Rauka, who was, I think, in the Gestapo or the SD, and later in the day three prominent SA men, Jordan, Kepen and Poschl, came to help him. All these SA men were in uniform. I know the number of the who were shot because my job on the Jewish Council included the rationing for which we had taken a census of the Jews. A new census was taken after these executions".