the blows they had received, but every night we could hear their "Most of the prisoners were not allowed to mention cries.
Those who were released had to sing two papers, a white one which stated that the treatment in the camp was good, and a blue one."
Now that article also mentioned, among; the well known prisoners, a Dr. Levy. Is that correct? Do you rember Dr. Levy?
Q And in your book, after publishing; this Times article, you published a letter from Dr. Levy to the Times on the 25th of September, 1953-- that was out six days after the article-in which Dr. Levy denied that there were any atrocities an Oranienburg. Can you find that letters
Q That letter of Dr. levy's was written in Potsdam, was its not? It says "Potsdam" underneath the enveloppe,
Q Yes I can see that is the book it says "Potsdam,
A Yes I can see that in the it says "Potsdam", the 25th of September. But now I ask your permission to explain something, Mt, :repuremtne. about the welfare of certain Jewish people from Berlin who were taken to Concentration from Walsig, here we are concerned with criminal elements, which the Jewish community had so cotton read of; and they had put those boys in a special educational here.
Q That has that got to do with Dr. Levy? I said, was Dr. Levy's letter written from Potsdam? Are you telling; the Criminal that that letter was written voluntarily, or did you got it out of him threats? you said have gotten it out of him by throats easily, could you not? you could, couldn't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I ask you to listen to the end of my explanation. I will concern myself with Dr. Levy immediately. Dr. Levy was the one -- and I can make this assurance in all openness before the public, who at that time personally had himself announced to me and asked that I see to it that these boys, who were not behaving themselves in a good way at all, be segregated. Dr. Levy was a well-known prosecutor who at that time had been interned in Oranienburg. Then, long after his being sent in, he was dismissed. I personally remember that Dr. Levy, before he left Oranienburg, left me in a most hearty manner and, I can say, in a very cordial manner. I am not at all of the impression and of the opinion that this article or this letter to me which appeared in The Times, that he was in any way forced to write it at Potsdam. On the contrary, I should like to assume that Dr. Levy, therefore, put "Potsdam" under it. I received this article from England, and I rather suspect that he put "potsdam" on the letter in order to differentiate, for the name of Levy was not known in Germany at that time. Perhaps in that way he wished to express that here a Dr. Levy from Potsdam was concerned. I cannot figure out any other explanation and I am of the firm conviction that it would be possible, even today, to question Dr. Levy. At that time he was in the prime of life and I am sure he is still alive today, and we might be able to summon him and hoar him on this question. But I do not believe at any time that Dr. Levy was forced to write an article like that. More than that, I should like to say, if you suppose that this were so, Mr. Prosecutor, who would have forced the Times to print this report if it was not, of the opinion -
Q I am not going to argue with you about that. My suggestion is perfectly clear, that Dr. Levy's letter was a transparent attempt on your part to refute the Times article, which you know to be true. ME won't argue that any more. You evidently disagree. But you will agree to this, won't you, that Dr. Seger seems to have agreed with the Times article in his book, doesn't he ? In his book, "A Nation Terrorized", he seems to be very much of the same idea as the Times article? Look at another letter in your book now -
A Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to give you an answer in this case too. The book written by Seger is not called, "A Nations Terrorized," but rather it is called ''Oranienburg". I should like to call your attention to that fact. And I should like to say this, Mr. Seger perjured himself deliberately as well when, the beginning of this book, he put the oath, which is customary before German courts and would have to be pursued in every case. As is well known -Tribunal does too, but just look at can more letter in your book before I finish. Turn to Page 241. Have you got it? Now there towards the bottom of the page is a letter from an inmate which you published in much the same way as Dr. Levy's letter, suggest, to show how good conditions were. And you see over the page, on Page 242, he says in this letters "Dear Mr. Schaefer: The days at Oranienburg wail always be among the best memories of my life." Do you see that passage? "The days at Oranienburg will always be among the best memories of my life."
Q Don't you think that that is too good to be true, or do you support that today?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to say the following in this connection: It is true, quite true, I admit that this letter was written in a need of exuberance and joy at being free once more, but I do not doubt that the author of the letter was quite truthful and had the best of intentions when he wrote this letter. Of course you would have to hear him on this matter himself. days in a concentration camp, where his liberty was taken away, were among the best memories of his life? Can any man be -
A I should like to give you a brief explanation here. Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps I might be permitted to say that there were men in this concentration camp -- and I belong to them -- who haunted the unemployment agencies and who suffered the most direct need, and here in the concentration camp had enough to cat for the first time, and that is something I should like to say quite clearly.
that you had them weighed and they all gained in weight. If you will look at the last two pages of your book I think you will see that you published there a table or a list of the weights of the prisoners, showing how much they had gained while they were in the camp. Have you got that?
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is 2924-B. It is on Page 17 I think -Page 52, immediately after the Times article. BY MR. BARRINGTON:
Q Now that is a list, isn't it, which shows the name of the prisoner, or his Christian name and the initials of his surname, and the weight on a certain date and then, after a certain period, what he had gained. well, now, I am going to suggest to you that those weights are so fantastic that they can't possible be true. Just look down, you will see that you have had some of them printed in bolder type than the others. Look at Hermann II. from Wriezen. Have you got it?
Q On the 26th of June he weighed 54 kilograms; on the 6th of September he weighed 68. That is an increase of 14 kilograms or 2 1/2 English stones in two and a half months. And look down further, you will see Erich L., who gained 15 kilograms in six months. And further down, Paul S., who gained 15 kilograms in four months; and if you look over the next page you will see Fritz T., who started at 55 kilograms and very nearly gained half his own weight in three months, 19 kilograms in three months; that is 3 English stones in three months. Don't you think those are rather fantastic figures, impossible to believe? Well, I'll put it another way to you; I'll make another suggestion, see if you will accept this explanation.
If the Times article was true about the poor food and conditions and if my suggestion is right that you afterwards decided to have a show camp and to improve the conditions, isn't this list of weights quite consistent with the prisoners having first of all lost weight under the bad conditions and then gained it again rapidly when you improved conditions? Do you like that explanation? I am not saying it is right, but that is another explanation; or are you maintaining that these figures are Correct? Are you maintaining that these figures are correct? Are you maintaining that these figures are correct?
Q I notice that you don't include Dr. Levy's weight in here; you don't include Dr. Sever's weight, do you? Or perhaps they lost weight, did they?
A They maintained their weight, Mr. Prosecutor. This here is only a list of weights, only an extract in order to determine who had gained weight, and I should like once more to say, Mr. Prosecutor, you suppose right from the beginning that here we are concerned with fantastic figures. I, however, would like to say that whatever is set down in this book I will star; by even today and this list of weights which is reproduced in the back is correct, and I ask to have you ask a medical man what possibilities of gaining weight are present by a man who for years and years of unemployment has been exhausted and run down and now once more is reintroduced into a nutritional phase where daily and for his regular meals he is receiving those things which he needed. Of course I am not a medical man and I cannot express myself, but I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that without much ado a physician can confirm these matters to you, that inside of four months a man can gain that much. I personally, Mr. Prosecutor, in May of this year, participated in hunger strikes because of hunger matters, and I lost 50 pounds when they were given the generous Christmas amnesty, weren't they?
AAbout Christmass, 1933, Mr. Prosecutor, conditions had changed essentially. I believe that I may be able to say without exaggerating at all that things were much better than the year before.
MR. BARRINGTON: That is all the questions I have, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, have you any questions to ask the witness? BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Witness, was Hohenstein a Prussian camp? Saxony.
Q Was Rubbethal a camp run by the State? of the Secret State Police of the Gestapo for the country of Saxony?
A No. I am hearing this name for the first time today. The name of Vogl is unknown to me. in his capacity as a member or an official of the Gestapo, he was treated about his request for the quashing of penal proceedings? that he did this in his capacity of an official. and 40,000 wounded?
A The figure if the dead is known to me. The exact figure of those wounded is not known to me. I know only that there were far more than 10,00 wounded. However, the exact figure is not known to me. time when political opponents were taken into the camp Oranienburg, thought of the 300 killed and the 40,000 wounded comrades? the beginning were governed by the decree of the Fuehrer; but you may not understand that this matter occurred at a time when the political tension was at the highest. book "Oranienburg?"
A No. As I have already stated, there was no commission and no command there.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Dr. Boehm.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, as to the next witness, I should like permission to examine the witness Gruss. This is the witness who is to be asked about the question concerning the people who transferred from the Stahlhelm to tha SA.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you state your full name, please ?
THE WITNESS: Theodor Gruss.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me. pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. Witness, how old are you ?
A. 64.
Q. Were you a member of the Party ?
A. No.
Q. Or any of its branches ?
A. No.
Q. Were you a soldier ?
A. Yes, in the first World War.
Q. what was your rank ?
A. Gefreiter (Corporal).
Q. And what rank did you have in the Stahlhelm ?
A. I was the Bundeskaemmerer of the Stahlhelm.
Q. From when to when were you in the Stahlhelm ?
A. From 1919 until it was dissolved in 1935.
Q. What was your task after the dissolution of the Stahlhelm in November 1935.
A. I had to carry out the liquidation of the Stahlhelm.
Q. And how long did you hold that position ?
A. Until 1939.
Q. How was the transfer of the Stahlhelm to the SA carried out ?
A. At the end of April 1933 the first Bundesfuehrer, Reich Minister von Seldte, and the second Bundesfuehrer Suendefeldt removed himself from his post by breaking the Federal charter and he took over dictatorial command of the Stahlhelm. One day later, Seldte, in a radio speech, declared his entry into the Party and he placed the Stahlhelm under Hitler. In June 1933, Hitler, in an agreement with Seldte, issued an order according to which first the Stahlhelm Youth, the so-called Scharnhorst union, had to be incorporated into the Hitler Youth. Second, the young Stahlhelmers a* the sport units were placed under the supreme SA leadership. Third, the rest of the Stahlhelm remained under the leadership of Seldte.
A few weeks later in June 1933, a new order came from Hitler. He ordered that now all the Stahlhelm was to be placed under the supreme SA leadership and he ordered that the Young Stahlhelm and the sport units were to be re-established for the purpose of incorporation into the SA. In the middle of July, 1933, the leadership of the Stahlhelm undertook a distribution of the league. They established first the defense Stahlhelm. This consisted of the youth Stahlhelm, the sport units, and all Stahlhelmers up to the age of 35. Second, the Wehrstahlhelm (Camp Stahlhelm) which consisted of all members from 36 on. Now, the first stahlhelm was incorporated into the SA in its own formations with its own leaders in its field gray uniforms and its own Stahlhelm flags. This incorporation was concluded about the end of October 1933. according to which the SA reserves one and two were to be set up. The SA reserve one was to be formed by the units of the Stahlhelm. That is, by the men from 36 to 45 years of age. The SA reserve two was to include the older age groups, that is, over 46. But it did not appear. It did not come into existence, and only lists were drawn up.
The units of the Stahlhelm were set up from which the SA reserve one was formed and they were transferred to the SA. Again, with their own leaders and their own units and in the Stahlhelm uniforms. This operation was completed by the end of January 1934. I believe it was on the 24th of January when Chief of Staff Roehm reported to Hitler that the whole Stahlhelm had been incorporated into the SA.
Just as early, the Wehrstahlhelm had been place under the Wehrgruppen -- the SA Reserve 1 was placed under the Command of the Wehrgruppen. That meant in both cases -
THE PRESIDENT: Isn't this all set out in detail in the Commission evidence?
DR. BOEHM: No, Mr. President, The examination of this witness in the Commission was nut as the examination in general. This witness was examined only very briefly in the Commission because his state of health was very poor at the time and it is essential for this witness to be examined in detail before the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The only topic he is dealing with is the merger of the Stahlhelm in the SA in 1933; isn't it? That is the only evidence he is giving and surely that is adequately dealt with in the Commission evidence.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything else that you want to get from him?
DR. BOEHM: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is it? But you aren't getting it at present, you are getting the way in which the Stahlhelm was merged in the SA.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President; the Stahlhelm has placed great value on being presented to the Court, how may were taken over into the SA but that they were taken over on orders a and that, as they assert, they did not volunteer for the SA.
THE PRESIDENT: I quite understand that but you aren't telling me, are you, that that wasn't stated in the evidence in the Commission, that they were taken over compulsorily by the SA.
DR. BOEHM: But I wanted the individual events as they actually occurred to be presented to the Court here.
TIE PRESIDENT: Well, we have got the summary of the evidence before us and it seems to me that the evidence lie is giving now is the same as the evidence he gave them.
DR. BOEHM: For the majority it is the same thing, Mr. President; he is finished with his testimony in this connection. I have come to the next question anyhow.
BY DR. BOEHM: collapse of 1945?
A Not all of then. A large part of these units were in the course of the years, particularly at the beginning of the war, transferred to the active SA; though they were either assigned to the Front SA or attached to the Front SA in the form of reset props the ether SA reserve units continued to exist.
AAt the beginning of war there were gaps in the SA. Through the transfer of the SA Reserve 1. these gaps were filled; primarily, however, the Stahlhelmers who were always recognized as oppositional were to be better supervised by the SA.
Q Why were you, yourself, incorporated into the SA? going beyond orders?
A Yes, to a large extent. There was no voluntary transfer. This transfer was on orders; for example the Wehrstahlhelm, in most cases the Wehrstahlhelm was called together be, They were hold that they had been transferred and then he present, took over the Stahlhelm. No one was asked where he wanted to participate. Immediately upon the incorporation of the he was shown that in the case of the majority of the Stahlhelmers, this incorporation proceeded only involuntarily and with the use of resistance. Stahlhelmers who did not want to join the SA were in many cases threatened with arrest. Police arrest punishments up to ten days and longer were inflicted in these cases. Furthermore, the Stahlhelmers were told that if they remained out of the SA, an order of Hitler' would not be fulfilled and this was an action hostile to the state which would have serious consequences. Whoever was charged with this, with an action hostile to the state, was reported to the police as politically unreliable and was especially watched by the police. It could happen to many that on any occasion, without any reason, he could be arrested, put into prison or a concentration camp.
Being investigated as an enemy of the state also had the very serious consequences that almost always resistance was at least seriously interfered with or even destroyed. The state officials who, as Stahlhelmers, did not want to be in the SA were designated as enemies of the state and removed from their positions. They often lost their salaries. It was similar with the employees in private industry. They always lost their positions because the heads of the concerns did not want to have a man working for then who was an enemy of the state. In many hundreds of cases we tried at the time to have these Stahlhelmers, who applied to us for aid, to help then by appealing to the labor courts but in most cases we were not able to have these people restored to their positions. In most cases the court merely guaranteed then compensation. What a Stahlhelmer had to suffer, who did not want to belong to the SA, was in many cases so serious that I know with certainty of several cases of suicide of Stahlhelmers who could not bear it.
Q Do these observations of yours cover all of Germany? was incorporated?
A Yes, in my opinion, maneuvers of deception also took place. For example, I have already mentioned that the Wehrstahlhelm, as well as the SA Reserve 1, were permitted to be incorporated in their own formations with their own leader and in the field grey uniform. After a short time, however, these concessions were removed and the Wehrstahlhelm as well as the SA Reserve 1 had to wear the brown uniform of the SA but they were no longer recognized as former Stahlhelmers in the SA. Then there was one point which had especially serious consequences. The Stahlhelmers had been promised that after the transfer, they could remain members of the Stahlhelm -- so-called dou membership. They could participate in the exercises of the Stahlhelm if the SA Reserve did not suffer but this promise also was withdrawn very soon and the Stahlhelmers who wanted to be loyal to their league had the very greatest difficulties. There were many arrests and punishments of all kinds, represent the will of the Stahlhelm League?
A No, he did not. The vast Majority of the Stahlhelmers did not approve the measures of Seldte. Serious "whirls" occurred in the Stahlhelm on this account and if it did not collapse at the time it was only because the Stahlhelmers said "We have not taken an oath to the person of Seldte. We swore an allegiance to the Stahlhelm and to the Front soldiers. did they have? Stahlhelm leaders had been expressly premised that they would serve in the SA with the sane ranks but this promise was not kept. The Stahlhelm leaders were reduced by one or two ranks. Shortly thereafter, they were relieved of their commands. Only a few of them remained in commanding posts. Most of them had nothing to do in the SA but they could not got out of the SA. According to my observation, the Stahlhelm leaders did not go beyond the rank of a Standartenfuehrer in the SA unless it was a special exception -- as men who have distinguished themselves by a special activity on behalf of National Socialism, In view of the ranks, a special role was played by the N.S. Reiter Corps which included many Stahlhelmers but as regards the leaders, the Reiter Corps was left more or less as it was. Up to a Standartenfuehrer, most of the Stahlhelmers kept their command although they included many who were in opposition.
different from the attitude of the ordinary SA? different from the SA. If anyone joined the Stahlhelm , he did so voluntary and on his own decision. Not everyone was accepted in the Stahlhelm. Everyone was first carefully investigated. Then the Stahlhelm had a charter, a constitution, which was on a completely democratic basis and which gave him the possibility to elect those leaders whom he wanted or had remove those leaders whom he did not want. The two leaders a the league. had to be reelected from time to time by the assembly of members. tradition of the front comradeship, which had arisen in the field, that unique comradeship which in emergency and death demanded that "I must give everything for my comrade and help him always." That was, as we called it, front socialism, No difference was made between rich and poor, between rank and rank and file. We Stahlhelmers were all alike. care from a moderate, middle-class, I might say conservative part of the population. These people were not for extreme measures and for radicalism. They were for macerate and peaceful development. Then one sums it up, one realizes that a quite special type of person was included in the Stahlhelmer and that this resulted in many reasons for friction with the SA. SA? spoke of the First world war, in which almost all of us had participated; but we were not a military organization; but that was often asserted of the Stahlhelm because, for example , it had military command; but it was quite impossible to have a mass movement of one and a half million members without such command, which were in the bulk of the Stahlhelmers as old soldiers. We had had enough with the First World War. We considered it our task to spread the idea among the people that one could solve problems without war.
Not only in Germany did we represent this point of view. We established contacts abroad as well, especially with the foreign organizations of front fighters because we thought that these old veterans would understand us best if we said that there must never be another war. of a war of aggression?
A NO; but aside from what I just said, the Stahlhelmer never thought of a war of aggression. The Fighters Front Comradeship had only the purpose of promoting the virtues of comradeship which had arisen in the field, of steadying them to other circles and in peaceful ways of leading to better cooperation among states. of Germany?
A The Stahlhelm was against all radical political tendencies. It did not follow a principle of extermination, however. It repeatedly attempted through enlightenment, conviction, recruitment, to unite these extreme tendencies with the moderate tendencies. Proof that the political opponents of the Stahlhelm did in the last analysis understand it was shown in the spring of 1933 when many persecuted members of the SPD and the KPD sought protection and aid in the Stahlhelm. They were taken in by us. Party. The Party could not approve that people persecuted by it should be projected by the Stahlhelm. Significant of this are the events in Brunswick in the spring of 1933. There an Ortsgruppe of the Stahlhelm held a meeting. The SA surrounded the place where the meeting has being held and rested all the members. Upon investigation, it was shown that of approximately 1500 participants, over a thousand were former members of the SPD and the KPD. We had taken the men when they had proved to us that they were decent people and that the majority of them had been at the front with us.
Q Were the Stahlhelmers opposed to trade unions?
A No. The Stahlhelmers were only opposed to the extreme exaggeration. The Stahlhelm had its own union, the Stahlhelm Self-Ad, Selbsthiffe. This included almost all the workers who were members of the Stahlhelm. I point cut that the Stahlhelm had twenty-five to thirty per-cent of its members who were workers, laborers.
In the summer of 1933 the Stahlhelm was dissolved possibly.
Q Did the Stahlhelm carry on anti-semitic propaganda? Everyone could think what he liked; but I never knew of any order of the leaders of the League against Jews; and no such order was ever given. It was quite impossible;. For example, the Second Bundfuehrer, leader of the league, Duesterberg, was of Jewish origin. Nevertheless, Duesterberg was to most popular Stahlhelm fuehrer. In the central office of the League in Berlin, one of my closest associates was a Stahlhelmer who was married to a Jewess. We did not concern ourselves about that at all. We had many Jews in the Stahlhelm. We did not appropriate the radical racial theory of the Party but were always opposed to it. In addition, to Duesterberg, we had other Jews as Stahlhelm fuehrers. There were Jews, part Jews, Free Masons in the Stahlhelm; and therefore there could not have been any anti-Semitic tenancy in the Stahlhelm, with the exception of a few circles who did not have the upper hand.
13 Aug A LJG 15-1 Bubley the Stahlhelm was transferred to the SA? resistance in the majority of Stahlhelmers against the incorporation. There were three points in particular which the Stahlhelmers could never understand, and which always separated him from the SA. There was, first, the autocratic fuehrer principle. In the Stahlhelm there were only self elected Fuehrers, who did not exist in the SA. Then, the Stahlhelmers could not agree with the radicalism which was to be observed in the SA, and furthermore they could not approve the idea of totalitarianism. not leave the SA. numbers of them would have resigned, but leaving the SA was impossible. There were only two possibilities of leaving the SA. One was honorable discharge and the other was dismissal. Honorable discharge was awarded when one could prove without doubt, for example, that one was very seriously ill, but only a very small fraction of the Stahlhelm could take advantage of this opportunity to leave the SA. For the majority of the Stahlhelmers, only dismissal was possible because the SA had recognized very early from the opposition of the Stahlhelm that these were elements hostile to it. As a result, dismissal was ordered in many eases if they wanted to harm the Stahlhelmer seriously. "enemy of the state" I should like to add the following. Dismissal from the SA was recorded on the papers of the Stahlhelmer. If the Stahlhelmer wanted to accept a now position, it was immediately clear that he had been dismissed from the SA and that was such a serious offense that no one wanted to have him. accepted if they had been dismissed from the SA.
13 Aug A LJG 15-2 Bubley so many serious difficulties that many Stahlhelmers who were otherwise brave and courageous men hesitated to leave the SA because they could not take on themselves the responsibility of endangering the livelihood of their family.
Q To what period of time do the so observations apply? told us here? orally with many Stahlhelmers about these matters. In addition, I had to read many reports. any contact with the Stahlhelmers beyond the settlement of business matters?
Q Were you permitted to do so? the Stahlhelm, but any attempt to continue the Stahlhelm in a camouflaged form had been prohibited by the Gestapo. I repeatedly had clashes with the Gestapo on that account. But I constantl made the attempt because many of my old comrades told me repeatedly that I had to do this because otherwise there would have been no one loft. Stahlhelm together?
A I spoke to many individual Stahlhelmers myself. They came to see me in Berlin from all parts of Germany. I was in contact with many by latter, and on the excuse of business I wrote letters to -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): What have we got to do with this, Dr. Boehm?
DR. BOEHM: The point at issue, Mr. President, is to show the Court what the nature of the ideas and the ideologies of 13 Aug A LJG Bubley 15-3 the men in the Stahlhelm was.