A (No response.)
Q Well, you wrote it, you know ? Let me refresh your memory a bit. Turn to Page 173.
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, I am sorry that these passages have not been translated. I only had then looked up this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: You ought to let him answer the other question you put to him on Page 133.
MR. BARRINGTON: I beg your Lordship's pardon. I did not realize he wanted to say something. BY MR. BARRINGTON: on Page 123. Will you?
A Yes, yes. This sentence, Mr. Prosecutor, is taken out of context. In order to understand this sentence quite clearly, one would have to read the entire paragraph. The way it is taken out of its context--and please understand me correctly -- in your sense--that is in the sense of the prosecution, of course-text. Tell us what the sense of the context is.
A Of course, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot tell you about the whole chapter after you submitted this one sentence to me. But I should like to tell you one thing, that when I spoke of conditions consistent with human dignity, I meant that to be completely unambiguous, and that the sentence which is taken out of context does not prove the opposite.
13 Aug M LJG 9-1 Perrin
Q Well, I will leave that passage then. Will you now turf to page -
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean, what is the context, what is the context from which it is torn? What do you mean by "refreshing their memories" purposes, I would like to re-read some of those matters which I do not completely recall in this book. In order to answer this question, I will have to read over a little bit, then I can give you an answer.
THE PRESIDENT: You are saying, are you not you don't know what you mean by "refreshing their memories"? passage not very far away from that. Just turn to Page 25, Page 25, and you see a passage in between brackets there. "Rarely have I seen such marvelous educators as my old SA men some of whom were themselves of proletarian origin and took on with extraordinary devotion these communist swashbucklers who acted in a particularly insolent manner." Isn't refreshing the memory of the provocateurs the same thing really as the education -- the marvelous education which your old SA men gave to them? What is the education, if you don't know what you mean by "refreshing their memories", what did you mean by "marvelous education?" What did you mean by "marvelous education
A Mr. Prosecutor, what you wish me to say, that is something I can feel. You wish for me to tell that I should explain that mistreatment actually did take place. I imagine I understand you correctly, but in this connection -
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question, please. The question is: What did you mean by the education that you last spoke of? Now, an education through mistreating or similar exercises -
13 Aug M LJG 9-2 Perrin passage in brackets. "To conceal Page 23, have you got it?
Q To the effect, "To conceal the fact that some of the prisoners had not been treated too gently, meanwhile, would be stupid as well as completely impossible to understand; impossible to understand insofar as such treatment was in accordance with an urgent necessity." it was the urgent necessity of net treating the prisoners too gently? Are you going to say it was purely disciplinary treatment? It is the same page as the first bracket I road, you knew, from the same page as "refreshing their memory". well, I will leave that passage and turn now to page 173. you an answer, Mr. Prosecutor. Here in this bock I wrote quite freely and openly about matters, and I do not wish to deny there were very few isolated cases that it was necessary when an innate when acted in a certain way, would have to be treated accordingly; and I have no reason to concesl now, and I do not do it in my back cither, that people who made noise, of course, were treated accordingly in order to bring back order. to a nazified Germany in 1934, weren't you? Turn to page 173-In this connection, I should like to explain also -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to know how you treated them. You said in certain cases inmates had to be treated accordingly. "accordingly"- meaning, I suppose, not too gently, is that what you meant?
A My Lord, the question can be answered this way; If an inmate received brutality, and 'there were cases like that, if he believed it was justifiable brutality, it was my duty to call attention to the fact with emphasis that he did not have the right to do so at that moment. the Tribunal what you have, particularly have against Ebert and 13 Aug M LJG 9-3 Perrin Heilmann.
What was your complaint against them that needed treatment? ment, in the sense, for we had no reason whatever for it to treat them specially, and they were not treated specially as I have already explained, but -neither one of them can say that they were treated differently then any of them, I know nothing differently.
Q Lot's see what the normal fashion was. Turn to Page 173. Have you got Page 173, read the part in brackets?
Q I will read the translation: "And then next day, in fatigue dress, Ebert with a shovel and Heilmann With a room, ready for work in the force with of the camp. Nothing was as beneficial to the prisoners in the camp as the sight of their prominent personages as they went to work the same way. They were put on a per with them." That is what you call the same treatment, the normal treatment, was it?
A Mr. Prosecutor, as an inmate of the camp, in order to save his own clothing, he received fatigue clothing. Trousers and coat, each one received that; and we did not give any exception to Heilmann and Ebert. Apart from that as far as I remember today, both of them asked for participate in manual labor, and a request which was granted them. a cripple in a concentration camp, don't you?
A No, no, I don't know that. as a result of orders issued originally by Goering, did you not, as minister of the Interior for Prussia? That is where your orders came from, through SA channels?
13 Aug M LJG 9-4 Perrin Looking after the camp under you were put there under the orders of the police, and that they, in fact, became deputy policeman for the purpose, is that your evidence?
Q Tell me this. Why do you suppose that Goering chose SA men to do this job? was it because the ordinary police would not do it?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, A little bit ago I stated that the police forces at our disposal were not sufficient in order to secure both matters set down by the fuehrer in the carrying through of a non-bloody revolution; and for this purpose, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior used the selected SA non for the auxiliary police. are you telling the Tribunal that if the ordinary police lad been used in this concentration camp at Oranienburg, Rubbetal, and Hohenstein, are you telling the Tribunal that the so excesses would have occurred if the ordinary police would have run then? would you even had the so isolated incidents that you talked about if the ordinary police would have run then?
A In Oranienburg, Mr. Prosecutor beginning from the first day onward, there were police officers housed at Rubbetal. I don't know, but I should like to say, that no SA men or leader who participated in an isolated case in excess did that because of orders on the strength of orders, but rather he did it of himself, but with no command, no order protected him, and his action did not protect him from punishment which was noted out to him. Oranienburg for the very simple reason that the SA alone could be relied on by the Movement to run it on sufficiently brutal lines. Do you agree, or don't you?
13 Aug M LJG 9-5 Perrin ordinary police at that time, let me read you a short passage from a speech he made on the third of March, 1933, which must have been just exactly about the same time that he gave the order to found Oranienburg Camp.
MR BARRINGTON: My Lord, it is document 1856-PS; it is in document book 16 A at page 28 and it is USA 437.
Q (Continuing) Now this is what Goering said just at the time that he was ordering Oranienburg to be started by you. He said:
"Fellow Germans, my measures will not be crippled by any judicial thinking My measures will not be crippled by any bureaucracy. Here I don't have to give justice; my mission is only to destroy and exterminate, nothing more his struggle I shall not conduct with the power of any police; a bourgeois state might have done that. Certainly I shall use the power of the state and the police to the utmost, my dear Communists, so you won't draw any false conclusions. But the struggle to the death, in which my fist will grasp your necks, I shall load with those down there--these are the Brown Shirts," Did you ever hear or read that speech at any time?
It doesn't look as if Goering thought much of the ordinary police when he ordered Oranienburg to be started, does it?
Are you telling the Tribunal that after that speech Goering intended to cr*-* a camp which would be mild and humane and just, as you tried to describe in you evidence?
A I do not know this speech, Mr. Prosecutor, but I can see here that it was given on the 3rd of March, or it was allegedly given on that date. ned. a sentence: brutal, SA Concentration camp, but that late in the summer of 1933 you decided to use it as a show camp to demonstrate to foreign countries how mild and just the concentration camp system was. Is that right or wrong?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, that is not true; it is not true in any way. Today, under the present circumstances, it would held the most weight if I said publicl that I could call as witnesses here the first inmates who were under my leader ship at that time; that is, I could call them to show that I was not ready to create a model camp only for the purposes of outward appearences.
A decent running of a camp like that was an inner need for me. I should like to ask you to take cognizance of the fact that this is not a phrase dictated to me by reason, Mr. Prosecutor, but rather it is a matter of my innermost feelings.
I came through a political struggle, which was very serious in Germany. It was not unknown to me that through the creation of the prototype of a martyr one's own position is not strengthened, Therefore, in a logical manner, I could not is any way be interested in the establishing of martyrs, and I was not interested is that.
Q Now, didn't you write your book as part of this idea of having a show c to convince foreigners? Isn't that part of the idea of your book? It was written to convince foreigners any way, was it not? You said so to the Commissioner, you know.
A Quite true; quite true. I beg your pardon, but I should like to complete explanation. I said at that time just what I am saying now. and I cannot call them anything else-- to refute them as a matter of duty. That, in my opinion, was my right, a right which I wanted to have for myself.
Q who commissioned you to write this book? Was it Goering? Did Goering suggest that you should write this book?
Q Did you consult Goering?
A No. I believe that Mr. Goering perhaps, is seeing me for the very first time today; and I am seeing him for the first time at this distance, we never discussed these matters with each other.
Q Did you consult the Prussian Ministry of Justice when you wrote your book?
A No. I have already stated unambiguously, Mr Prosecutor, that I did not discuss this book with a third party in any way, but rather, that I wrote it when a terrific number of these newspaper reports had been submitted to mc, and that, for my own self, I wanted to justify Oranienburg and I felt myself obligated to put that forth.
Q Now tell me about these newspapers reports. Were they adverse criticisms of Oranienburg only, or of other camps? Was Oranienburg the only one they criticized? Perhaps it was.
A These articles? I did not quite get the first part of your question, Mr. Prosecutor. and which required refuting. Were they adverse to Oranienburg only, or other a camps? myself with those articles which dealt with Oranienburg; I could not know anything about other camps.
Q I did not ask you that. Were there any other articles about other camps? Did you see any articles about other camps?
A I do not recall that. I received only those articles which concernes Oranienburg.
Q Who sent then to you then? Goering? strata of the population and also from foreigners who were interested in having no take notice of their press abroad. newspaper, the English paper, was it not? and you reproduced it is your book. The article was very Oranienburg.
Mr. BARRINGTON: My Lord, there are extracts from that article in document book 16-A, at page 31, and it is documentment numbers-2824-A-PS.
Q (Continuing) I just want to point out to you to or three short extracts, because I am going to suggest to you then they were perfectly true--this is at page 110 in your book, I think:
"We got to Oranienburg concentration camp we had to tried to sit down was beaten. Each of us got a small mug of confect and a place of black board, our first food that day.
Then, a bit further on :
"Prominent prisoners were beaten more often them the others, but everyone got his full share of blows."
and a little further on :
"They also sometimes rubbed black shoe polish into the prisoners all over, and checked up next day to see if it had all been washed off."
and further on again :
the blows they had received, but every night we could hear their "Most of the prisoners were not allowed to mention cries.
Those who were released had to sing two papers, a white one which stated that the treatment in the camp was good, and a blue one."
Now that article also mentioned, among; the well known prisoners, a Dr. Levy. Is that correct? Do you rember Dr. Levy?
Q And in your book, after publishing; this Times article, you published a letter from Dr. Levy to the Times on the 25th of September, 1953-- that was out six days after the article-in which Dr. Levy denied that there were any atrocities an Oranienburg. Can you find that letters
Q That letter of Dr. levy's was written in Potsdam, was its not? It says "Potsdam" underneath the enveloppe,
Q Yes I can see that is the book it says "Potsdam,
A Yes I can see that in the it says "Potsdam", the 25th of September. But now I ask your permission to explain something, Mt, :repuremtne. about the welfare of certain Jewish people from Berlin who were taken to Concentration from Walsig, here we are concerned with criminal elements, which the Jewish community had so cotton read of; and they had put those boys in a special educational here.
Q That has that got to do with Dr. Levy? I said, was Dr. Levy's letter written from Potsdam? Are you telling; the Criminal that that letter was written voluntarily, or did you got it out of him threats? you said have gotten it out of him by throats easily, could you not? you could, couldn't you?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I ask you to listen to the end of my explanation. I will concern myself with Dr. Levy immediately. Dr. Levy was the one -- and I can make this assurance in all openness before the public, who at that time personally had himself announced to me and asked that I see to it that these boys, who were not behaving themselves in a good way at all, be segregated. Dr. Levy was a well-known prosecutor who at that time had been interned in Oranienburg. Then, long after his being sent in, he was dismissed. I personally remember that Dr. Levy, before he left Oranienburg, left me in a most hearty manner and, I can say, in a very cordial manner. I am not at all of the impression and of the opinion that this article or this letter to me which appeared in The Times, that he was in any way forced to write it at Potsdam. On the contrary, I should like to assume that Dr. Levy, therefore, put "Potsdam" under it. I received this article from England, and I rather suspect that he put "potsdam" on the letter in order to differentiate, for the name of Levy was not known in Germany at that time. Perhaps in that way he wished to express that here a Dr. Levy from Potsdam was concerned. I cannot figure out any other explanation and I am of the firm conviction that it would be possible, even today, to question Dr. Levy. At that time he was in the prime of life and I am sure he is still alive today, and we might be able to summon him and hoar him on this question. But I do not believe at any time that Dr. Levy was forced to write an article like that. More than that, I should like to say, if you suppose that this were so, Mr. Prosecutor, who would have forced the Times to print this report if it was not, of the opinion -
Q I am not going to argue with you about that. My suggestion is perfectly clear, that Dr. Levy's letter was a transparent attempt on your part to refute the Times article, which you know to be true. ME won't argue that any more. You evidently disagree. But you will agree to this, won't you, that Dr. Seger seems to have agreed with the Times article in his book, doesn't he ? In his book, "A Nation Terrorized", he seems to be very much of the same idea as the Times article? Look at another letter in your book now -
A Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to give you an answer in this case too. The book written by Seger is not called, "A Nations Terrorized," but rather it is called ''Oranienburg". I should like to call your attention to that fact. And I should like to say this, Mr. Seger perjured himself deliberately as well when, the beginning of this book, he put the oath, which is customary before German courts and would have to be pursued in every case. As is well known -Tribunal does too, but just look at can more letter in your book before I finish. Turn to Page 241. Have you got it? Now there towards the bottom of the page is a letter from an inmate which you published in much the same way as Dr. Levy's letter, suggest, to show how good conditions were. And you see over the page, on Page 242, he says in this letters "Dear Mr. Schaefer: The days at Oranienburg wail always be among the best memories of my life." Do you see that passage? "The days at Oranienburg will always be among the best memories of my life."
Q Don't you think that that is too good to be true, or do you support that today?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to say the following in this connection: It is true, quite true, I admit that this letter was written in a need of exuberance and joy at being free once more, but I do not doubt that the author of the letter was quite truthful and had the best of intentions when he wrote this letter. Of course you would have to hear him on this matter himself. days in a concentration camp, where his liberty was taken away, were among the best memories of his life? Can any man be -
A I should like to give you a brief explanation here. Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps I might be permitted to say that there were men in this concentration camp -- and I belong to them -- who haunted the unemployment agencies and who suffered the most direct need, and here in the concentration camp had enough to cat for the first time, and that is something I should like to say quite clearly.
that you had them weighed and they all gained in weight. If you will look at the last two pages of your book I think you will see that you published there a table or a list of the weights of the prisoners, showing how much they had gained while they were in the camp. Have you got that?
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is 2924-B. It is on Page 17 I think -Page 52, immediately after the Times article. BY MR. BARRINGTON:
Q Now that is a list, isn't it, which shows the name of the prisoner, or his Christian name and the initials of his surname, and the weight on a certain date and then, after a certain period, what he had gained. well, now, I am going to suggest to you that those weights are so fantastic that they can't possible be true. Just look down, you will see that you have had some of them printed in bolder type than the others. Look at Hermann II. from Wriezen. Have you got it?
Q On the 26th of June he weighed 54 kilograms; on the 6th of September he weighed 68. That is an increase of 14 kilograms or 2 1/2 English stones in two and a half months. And look down further, you will see Erich L., who gained 15 kilograms in six months. And further down, Paul S., who gained 15 kilograms in four months; and if you look over the next page you will see Fritz T., who started at 55 kilograms and very nearly gained half his own weight in three months, 19 kilograms in three months; that is 3 English stones in three months. Don't you think those are rather fantastic figures, impossible to believe? Well, I'll put it another way to you; I'll make another suggestion, see if you will accept this explanation.
If the Times article was true about the poor food and conditions and if my suggestion is right that you afterwards decided to have a show camp and to improve the conditions, isn't this list of weights quite consistent with the prisoners having first of all lost weight under the bad conditions and then gained it again rapidly when you improved conditions? Do you like that explanation? I am not saying it is right, but that is another explanation; or are you maintaining that these figures are Correct? Are you maintaining that these figures are correct? Are you maintaining that these figures are correct?
Q I notice that you don't include Dr. Levy's weight in here; you don't include Dr. Sever's weight, do you? Or perhaps they lost weight, did they?
A They maintained their weight, Mr. Prosecutor. This here is only a list of weights, only an extract in order to determine who had gained weight, and I should like once more to say, Mr. Prosecutor, you suppose right from the beginning that here we are concerned with fantastic figures. I, however, would like to say that whatever is set down in this book I will star; by even today and this list of weights which is reproduced in the back is correct, and I ask to have you ask a medical man what possibilities of gaining weight are present by a man who for years and years of unemployment has been exhausted and run down and now once more is reintroduced into a nutritional phase where daily and for his regular meals he is receiving those things which he needed. Of course I am not a medical man and I cannot express myself, but I believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that without much ado a physician can confirm these matters to you, that inside of four months a man can gain that much. I personally, Mr. Prosecutor, in May of this year, participated in hunger strikes because of hunger matters, and I lost 50 pounds when they were given the generous Christmas amnesty, weren't they?
AAbout Christmass, 1933, Mr. Prosecutor, conditions had changed essentially. I believe that I may be able to say without exaggerating at all that things were much better than the year before.
MR. BARRINGTON: That is all the questions I have, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, have you any questions to ask the witness? BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Witness, was Hohenstein a Prussian camp? Saxony.
Q Was Rubbethal a camp run by the State? of the Secret State Police of the Gestapo for the country of Saxony?
A No. I am hearing this name for the first time today. The name of Vogl is unknown to me. in his capacity as a member or an official of the Gestapo, he was treated about his request for the quashing of penal proceedings? that he did this in his capacity of an official. and 40,000 wounded?
A The figure if the dead is known to me. The exact figure of those wounded is not known to me. I know only that there were far more than 10,00 wounded. However, the exact figure is not known to me. time when political opponents were taken into the camp Oranienburg, thought of the 300 killed and the 40,000 wounded comrades? the beginning were governed by the decree of the Fuehrer; but you may not understand that this matter occurred at a time when the political tension was at the highest. book "Oranienburg?"
A No. As I have already stated, there was no commission and no command there.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Dr. Boehm.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, as to the next witness, I should like permission to examine the witness Gruss. This is the witness who is to be asked about the question concerning the people who transferred from the Stahlhelm to tha SA.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you state your full name, please ?
THE WITNESS: Theodor Gruss.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me. pure truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. Witness, how old are you ?
A. 64.
Q. Were you a member of the Party ?
A. No.
Q. Or any of its branches ?
A. No.
Q. Were you a soldier ?
A. Yes, in the first World War.
Q. what was your rank ?
A. Gefreiter (Corporal).
Q. And what rank did you have in the Stahlhelm ?
A. I was the Bundeskaemmerer of the Stahlhelm.
Q. From when to when were you in the Stahlhelm ?
A. From 1919 until it was dissolved in 1935.
Q. What was your task after the dissolution of the Stahlhelm in November 1935.
A. I had to carry out the liquidation of the Stahlhelm.
Q. And how long did you hold that position ?
A. Until 1939.
Q. How was the transfer of the Stahlhelm to the SA carried out ?
A. At the end of April 1933 the first Bundesfuehrer, Reich Minister von Seldte, and the second Bundesfuehrer Suendefeldt removed himself from his post by breaking the Federal charter and he took over dictatorial command of the Stahlhelm. One day later, Seldte, in a radio speech, declared his entry into the Party and he placed the Stahlhelm under Hitler. In June 1933, Hitler, in an agreement with Seldte, issued an order according to which first the Stahlhelm Youth, the so-called Scharnhorst union, had to be incorporated into the Hitler Youth. Second, the young Stahlhelmers a* the sport units were placed under the supreme SA leadership. Third, the rest of the Stahlhelm remained under the leadership of Seldte.
A few weeks later in June 1933, a new order came from Hitler. He ordered that now all the Stahlhelm was to be placed under the supreme SA leadership and he ordered that the Young Stahlhelm and the sport units were to be re-established for the purpose of incorporation into the SA. In the middle of July, 1933, the leadership of the Stahlhelm undertook a distribution of the league. They established first the defense Stahlhelm. This consisted of the youth Stahlhelm, the sport units, and all Stahlhelmers up to the age of 35. Second, the Wehrstahlhelm (Camp Stahlhelm) which consisted of all members from 36 on. Now, the first stahlhelm was incorporated into the SA in its own formations with its own leaders in its field gray uniforms and its own Stahlhelm flags. This incorporation was concluded about the end of October 1933. according to which the SA reserves one and two were to be set up. The SA reserve one was to be formed by the units of the Stahlhelm. That is, by the men from 36 to 45 years of age. The SA reserve two was to include the older age groups, that is, over 46. But it did not appear. It did not come into existence, and only lists were drawn up.