have on the concentration camp Oranienburg? camp itself, and on the conduct and the administration of the concentration camp he had no influence. meant terror measures of the SA? camps who were released? small number of such camps and a small number of internees in them, for I have already explained that to me, to Oranienburg the only camp in existence then, only a few internees were transferred. A large part had already been released. in the rest of Germany? in relation to the figure of internees in Prussia, which was given before, the number of 50,000 is absolutely incredible. Prussia was physically the largest part of Germany, and if there were few internees there in proportion, I cannot imagine that in the rest of the Reich there were 50,000. I do not know this figure.
Q What do you knew about cooperation with the Gestapo in the beginning? It had only official connections arising; from the relation of the police to the auxiliary police, the SA. In the course of the year, persons who had been arrested were sent there, and at the direction of the Prussian Minister of the Interior these prisoners were released when their cases had been reviewed. and the Gestapo in Berlin? I would not like to conceal at this paint. Two internees were sent in by the Gestapo from Berlin in a severely mistreated condition.
On the next day, I went to see the Standartenfuehrer Schutzewechsler who was my superior, and asked him to apply to the Gestapo in Prinz Albrecht Strasse with me, and to demand an explanation which I would then make the subject of a report to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior. telephone by Standartenfuehrer Schutzewechsler, and he told me that he had just learned that the concentration camp Oranienburg was to be dissolved immediately; I was to come to Berlin; he wanted to go to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior with me to investigate why the dissolution of the camp had been ordered so suddenly. our great astonishment that after our protest on the previous day at Prinz Albrecht Strasse, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior had been called up and informed that in view of these cases of mistreatment -- referring to these two cases which I myself was trying to clear up -- it had become necessary to dissolve Oranienburg. The suggestion of Prinz Albrecht Strasse was that all the prisoners of Oranienburg were to be put in new camps built by the SS in the Emms district. necessary explanations, what had induced me on the previous day to protest at Prinz Albrecht Strasse, he promised me to have the circumstances investigated thoroughly, and he did it immediately. In my presence he told Ministerialdirigent Fischer to carry on the investigation of the affair. Fischer was known as a thoroughly correct and reliable old official, and Fischer then actually found that the things were as I had described them to Krauet. It was established clearly that these cases of mistreatment which had been charged against Oranienburg had occured in the Gestapo in Berlin. Then the camp was not dissolved. SA camps to liberate prisoners? Q You did not experience them in Oranienburg?
your opinion, to when are the released which took place primarily due?
A Various sources were responsible for the release of prisoners: first, the competent Regierungspresidente and Landra ete who, on the basis of the constant claims of the relatives of a ternees, knew the circumstances exactly. The camp itself, and I as commandant of the camp, had an important part in the release of internees. After investigation in some of the cases, I made suggestions for release, but I must say that above all it was Prime Minister Goering himself who at the time had great interest in seeing to it that the Oranienburg camp should not be stuffed full of prisoners, but that as many as possible should be released. Christmas amnesty, in which he said that Prime Minister Goering had urged the Fuehrer that at Christmas very extensive -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): Dr. Boehm, the Tribunal is not trying this witness. It is trying the criminality of the SA. This is far too detailed about the release of prisoners. He seems not to have got further than 1933 up to the present. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q I should like to ask one more question. On Christmas 1933, how many people were still there?
Q Did you ever have any personal differences with Mr. Diehls?
A No, not at all. On the contrary. In 1934, when I wrote a book about Oranienburg, he offered his services to write the introduction for this book; and he always praised the camp. Fritzsche? was there from March, 1933 to 1934, was sentenced to death? It is evident that was you, isn't it?
A That is best evidenced by the fact that I am here. Of course it isn't true. investigation of mistreatment which took place in Oranienburg, was carried out? mentioned before. Namely, the case of the Gestapo and the Seger case. Official investigations were conducted.
Q What were the results of the investigations? ment which were charged against us, had actually occurred in the Gestapo in Berlin, and in the Seger case, it was proved that Seger had made statements contrary to the truth. he learned from individuals in the Gestapo or the SS? guards thoroughly knew my attitude, but, moreover, the inmates of the camp also knew it. purge, to the extent that Gauleiters and SA Fuehrers who had misused their power were removed? this opinion. Do you know it?
A Yes. Seger sent me this book himself. for prosecution of the complaints which he makes?
Q And what did the Ministry of Justice do?
A The competent prosecutor for the locality of Seger's former residence questioned me thoroughly. A thorough investigation was carried out, with the result that, as far as I can recall, the Reichsgericht (Reichs Court) in Leipzig stopped the proceedings.
Q Do you know that Seger accused you of murder?
Q Was this case cleared up?
A This is Seger's accusation -- that I had been responsible for the shooting of two internees. This case was thoroughly cleared up -- so clearly, that when this book was read to the internees in the camp, on my orders, one person who had been reported shot by Seger, stood up and reported that he was alive and well, while the other one was already with his family; had already been released; that it was purely disproved by the two men who were supposed to have been shot.
Q The statement of fact as given by Seger must be called a lie then? their right of secret ballot according to the Weimar Constitution?
A That is also true. On the occasion of the plebiscite, on the further participation of Germany in the League of Nations, the prisoners participated in the election under the legal rules, as laid down in the Weimar Constitution.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, I have already pointed out to you that we think this might get a little to something more important. We are still dealing with 1933 or the beginning of 1934, in the Camp Oranienburg.
MR. BOEHM: Mr. President, this SA is charged only with the camp Oranienburg, and actually the SA had Oranienburg only from March, 1933, to March, 1934. It was not possible -
THE PRESIDENT: That we understand, that this witness tells us that the camp was administered in a perfectly satisfactory and proper condition, and we don't desire details of every day during 1933 and 1934.
DR. BOEHM: I expected the book of Seger would be submitted in cross examination. Perhaps the Tribunal will be interested that this book -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, if it is submitted in cross examination, the witness will then be able to answer questions which are put upon the book. It isn't necessary for you to anticipate possible cross examination.
DR. BOEHM: Very well. May I continue? Is the assertion of Seger true that Gauleiter Loeber of Dessau visited you in Oranienburg, and slapped you?
WITNESS SCHAEFER: No, that is not true. I never saw Gauleiter Loeber. I never know him. Loeber was never in Oranienburg and I never met him on any other occasion either. There was never any altercation between us. intended to poison relations between peoples -- can you confirm this attitude by facts? received an enormous number of threatening letters, from which I had to see that the false reports which were given on Oranienburg, had led to the situation that perfect strangers whom I did not know, and who did not know me now felt it necessary -
THE PRESIDENT: What you are speaking of now -- when did those articles appear, and when did you receive threatening letters?
THE WITNESS: '33, '34.
THE PRESIDENT: Those appeared there, and you received those letters her
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY DR. BOEHM: Oranienburg subject?
Q And to whom was Oranienburg itself subordinate? is, the superior of the Regierungspresident, the Prussian ministry of the Interior. The SA was called upon for service within the SA auxiliary police and the State. In this case, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior used the SA Gruppe and the SA brigade and Standarte. My SA Fuehrer was also an auxiliary policeman, and thus the orders reached me through these channels from above. For discipline, I was under the SA, and for state measures, I was directly subordinate to the State. establishment of this camp from the SA Standarte. How is that true?
A That was according to the channels which I have just given. The State SA Gruppe Standarte Fuehrer is the man responsible for the use of the auxiliary police, and so, through him, from the State, I received the assignment to establish the camp.
Q How many persons were brought to the Oranienburg camp? What persons ? Camp, Then there were elements of the movement and the SA, who through conduct contrary to discipline, had made this necessary. For this purpose there was a special section in Oranienburg, and informers, who acting for their own personal advantage, had informed on political opponents, were also placed under arrest. And then there were a small group of people who did sympathize with the NSDAP, that could have caused foreign political difficulties through extraterritoriality. I remember the leader of the Russian National Socialists in Berlin, who had to be arrested in Oranienburg because he was causing political difficulties.
He had to be taken out of public life for a short time. uprising was to be expected against the existing government? of time. Those were very extensive supplies of weapons which were found in a very good -
THE PRESIDENT: We had this already today, about the confiscation of weapons.
DR. BOEHM: No.
THE PRESIDENT: I have written it down myself. I heard it.
DR. BOEHM: I don't want to have it repeated, Mr. President. In times of revolution, of course, members of the SA and the NSDAP made raids. How do you explain that?
WITNESS SCHAEFER: It was, in the first place, a group of political hot heads, who in such a time of revolution, of course, went far beyond the measure in the goal set for them, but as I have already said clearly, there were obscure elements who were uncontrolled, perhaps uncontrollably within the SA and within the party, because they were uncontrolled from outisde. These elements, of course, had the best opportunity to commit punishable actions at the time of their seizure of power, but may I make emphasis that we did everything possible to take strict stops whenever such occurrences were reported to us. The party formed its own corps for this purpose, which was known for a fact that without consideration of persons or position, it took action.
Q What was the basis of arrests in concentration camps?
Q By whom was this order issued?
Q For what work were the people in the concentration camps employed? internal administration, and then also for agricultural work. improper treatment ?
A. Through my constant contact with the internees I always stayed in the camp a very long time. I occasionally learned of improper conditions, and can give the assurance here that I did everything possible to remove such conditions as soon as I had learned of them.
Q. In the time during which this camp was guarded by SA members were there any executions?
A. No. Q. Were there any machines for torture or the extermination of human beings while you were commandant?
A. No.
Q. Who was in charge of guarding the camp after you?
A. After me the SA had it a few months, about two months, and then the SS took Oranienburg over.
Q. And did you, as the first Commandant of the camp, have anything to say about that?
A. The camp was taken over not because of any inadequacies or improper conditions, but after the 30th of June the SS was to direct these concentration camps. The Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler took over the concentration camps and administered them with his men. The SA in 1934 was completely eliminate from the concentration camps.
Q. I should like to ask, did you have occasion on the basis of any illegal actions, to take action against the men?
A. Of course they were punished. If the offenses seemed more important, I was obligated to report them to the responsible agency -- that is, the state. I proceeded against two Sturmbannfuehrers and one Sturmfuehrer who were assigned to me. I had to make such reports about them. These three men were immediately removed from their positions and they were put on trial.
Q. Did you yourself inflict punishments, and what -
THE PRESIDENT: Wasn't this gone into before the Commission?
DR. BOEHM: In part, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: You are dealing with the case of three officers at the moments. Either it was gone into before the Commission or it was not.
DR. BOEHM: It was mentioned before the Commission, Mr. President. What was to be added today was the question whether SA men, not only these three officers, but SA men, were punished and dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you can pass on from the three officers. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. Is it true that in addition to these officers of whom you spoke before the Commission, SA men were also dismissed who were connected with this matter?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Is it true that because of the direction of the camp you yourself were under or subject to the punishment of the Ministry of Justice?
A. In 1934 I was taken over by the Ministry of Justice. I took over the Emms installations as commander. I became director of a penal institution in the course of a year.
Q. In this connection it may be necessary to investigate -- what do you understand by "SA auxiliary police"?
A. The SA auxiliary police was, as the name says, an auxiliary organ of the police. So that the revolution might be carried out without "bloodshed it was necessary that conditions might be supervised. Since the police forces available were not adequate, the state made use of a comparatively small number of SA men whose previous lives had to be without reproach. Old and experienced police officials inaugurated them into their duties, and then they carried on their service together with the police. But this was only a temporary measure.
Q. As what did you as Commandant of Camp Oranienburg see your task?
A. It was my task primarily to direct the camp as ordered, correct the measures which were taken, and to guard the internees.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I interfere with the greatest possible reluctance with Dr. Boehm's examination, but I cannot think that he has appreciated the instruction which Your Lordship has repeated to defense counsel on several occasions during the last week.
in front of mo. This morning Dr. Boehm is going into these matters in far greater detail than they were gone into before the Commission. As I understood the order of the Tribunal, it was that counsel should not repeat what was gone into before the Commission, but should select the important points and deal with them and give your Lordship and the Tribunal an opportunity for judging the witness and seeing his merit and capabilities. this very extended examination in controversion of the Tribunalls ruling.
THE PRESIDENT: Nor, Dr. Boehm, unless you observe the orderes of the Tribunal in this matter the Tribunal will have to stop the examination of this witness. You must consider that. you will observe the orders. Otherwise, as I say, we will stop the examination of this witness.
(A recess was taken)
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, at the suggestion of the High Tribunal according to which witnesses are to be heard upon topics which were not discussed before the Commission, I took this suggestion to heart, but the questionnaire which was submitted to the witness has been extended a little bit for the points Seger had discussed, and just at the very last minute we learned that the witness Diehls had deposed an affidavit to the same matter which this witness had to depose on, too. At the time when this witness was before the Commission, the questionaire and the affidavit deposed by Diehls were still unknown at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: There was no objection about his being examined about the affidavit. That was not dealt with in the Commission before. We do not want you to go over all the details which were gone over before the Commission
DR. BOEHM: I have perhaps ten more questions to put to the witness, Mr. President. I shall ask the witness to be as brief as possible. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. During your capacity as Commandant of Oranienburg, was there any supervision on the part of the State concerning this camp?
A Yes. The Camp of Oranienburg was supervised by the President at Potsdam, Police President Count Helldorf and high officials of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior.
Q Did the Kreispolice authority have any right to supervise?
Q Did they actually control and check? inspect Camp Oranienburg? Did they have an opportunity to visit it and to talk with the inmates? at Oranienburg. Those who participated were the Foreign Press, the Home Press and private citizens who were politically interested. That is so abroad Then a larger number had an opportunity to talk with them quite freely and Openly inside the camp and at the work places of the inmates. only what you were told to show, and that you would conceal everything else?
A That is correct. That was put to me and thereupon I saw to it that those concerned could open the doors which they wished to open in Oranienburg. There was nothing to hide. There was nothing to be concealed. The people concerned could form their own opinion, their own judgment. They had the opportunity to do so.
A The accommodations of the inmates were very good. That is evidenced by the increased weight of the inmates. Apart from that everything was done which was necessary or required to keep the inmates in condition in line with human dignity.
They even had their own canteen where their daily heeds could be met.
Q Now, just a few questions about the penal camps in Emmsland. How did these camps arise, Strafgefangenen Lager? of Germany. This was caused to a large part through the large social need which was prevalent in Germany at that time. It was particularly the wish of the Minister President Goering, at that time, that inmates partake in the large cultivation projects along the Emms. The SS was charged with setting up certain mammoth camps so that the inmates could be collected for their cultivating work, but this generous Christmas amnesty declared by the Minister President made this problem problematical and the possibility was made that from now on, criminals could be brought into these camps. That did take place. Emnsland?
A No. That was a camp put up by the state. It was completely under the Reich Ministry of Justice. criminal elements. Is that correct?
Q I should like to now put a final question to you. How many SA men were used in the concentration camp at Oranienburg for supervisory purposes and to work for the German Police? at the height of activity, perhaps 90. personnel, the guards?
AA far as I know, Dachau was a pure SS Camp. SA was never active in Dachau.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, for the present I have no more questions to put to this witness.
BY MR. BARRINGTON:
Q. Witness, you probably know it already, but if you do not, you may take it from me that in the last eight months this Tribunal has heard a great deal of evidence about concentration camps. Do you deny, now, that even in 1933 concentration camps were regarded throughout Germany with terror?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I did not quite follow the question. I do not quite understand it.
Q I will state it again. Do you deny that even in 1933 concentration camps were regarded by people throughout Germany with terror? horror therewith for the taking away of freedom. That forces him to make a statement like that. There was no reason at all, at that time, to be afraid of internment.
Q You have spoken, this morning, about the Reichstag deputy, Mr. Jarnot Seger. He wrote a book on the Oranienburg concentration camp. I am not going that book, but do you remember that the title of it was "A Nation Terrorized"? "A National Terrorized." Do you remember that title?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor. Oranienburg? camps at Wubbethal or Hohenstein?
A I cannot make any statements in that connection. I never knew Wubbethal, and as far as, Hohenstein is concerned, I know only this much -- that there the sharpest steps were undertaken when abuses were discovered and later on I learned that the leading men of the concentration camp Hohenstein were punished with penitentiary sentences and so forth. cases to about half the sentence? Don't you know that?
A No. That is unknown to me.
25 and that the official report about it said that they were not all who took part in the excesses, but only the most prominent ones? Did you know that?
A I do not know the particulars. I know only that at that time severe steps were taken. in Wubbethal and in Hohenstein? You knew about it at that time, did you not camps were run by the SA? Is that right?
A No. I did not know that either.
Q You did not know they were run by the SA?
A No. I did not know that.
Q. Witness, I want you to look at a document -- which is 787-PS, My Lord, in Book 16-a, at Page 16. That is a letter written by Dr. Guertner, the Reich Minister of Justice, to Hitler, and he describes at the beginning of the letter the mistreatment of prisoners in Hohenstein, including torture by a drip apparatus. If you look towards the end of the letter -- I should think it is about ten lines from the end -- you will see they are talking about the principal SA offender, one Vogl -- "By his actions he supported the convicted SA leaders and men in their needs."
A. Mr. Prosecutor of course in the period of one brief minute it is not possible for me to read a document which is five pages long. I should like to explain in this connection only that I learned afterwards that energetic and severe measures were taken against the SA men and against the SA leaders who had perpetrated crimes there. I should also like to point to the fact that while Minister Dr. Guertner himself was the one who took me over into his penal institution, he did not make general those things which he set forth as an isolated case in his letter to the Fuehrer. were sentenced accordingly in each case.
Q. Witness, if you say you do not know what went on in Hohenstein and Wubbethal at that time, let me ask you this. You knew Guertner fairly well. Did you not ?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew Kerl fairly well, did you not ?
A. Yes.
Q. Kerl was Lutze's uncle, was he not ?
A. (No response).
Q. Wasn't Kerl Lutze's uncle ?
A. I know that there was some connection of relationship. However, I do not know what that was.
Q. And he was a very fervent Nazi, too, was he not -- Kerl ?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did you not talk with him about these concentration camps, these other concentration camps ? You were the commandant of the first concentration can at Oranienburg. Didn't you talk to him about the others that were springing up, the other concentration camps ?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to Guertner about them ?
A. There was no reason for that, either.
I should like to explain in this connection that it was just the Pruss* Minister of Justice, Kerl, who, after numerous visits to Oranienburg, select me on the basis of the fact that Oranienburg seemed to be cleanly headed, and at that time ha used me as the commandant for that post.
Q. We will come to that in a minute. I am suggesting to you now that it was just because of the interest that Kerl took in you, and he did in fact appoint you to your position with the Strafgefangenenlager, later. It was just because of that I am suggesting you might have talked the whole problem out with him. Did you or did you not ?
A. Only in so far as it applied to the camp Oranienburg.
Q. I see.
A. I remember -
Q. Did you talk to Count Helldorf, the Police President, about the genera problem of concentration camps ?
A. Only in so far as it concerned Oranienburg. In this case, however, extensively.
Q. I see. Now you say that none of these terrors and atrocities went on Oranienburg; is that right ?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I have here an affidavit which Rudolf Diehls has sworn this morning since you started your evidence, and I will read a little of it to you, and you can tell me if it is true or not.
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, this is Document 976; it becomes GB 595. BY MR. BARRINGTON:
Q. Rudolf Diehls says :
"I received from various individuals, various complaints about illtreatments by SA men in concentration camps. I learned that SA guards had badly ill-treated the following persons in the concentration camp Oranienburg : Mr. Ebert, son of the former Reichspresident, Ernst Heilmann, the leader of the Russian Social Democrats, the Reichstag President, Paul Loewe and the Oberpraesident Lubaschek."
Then he goes on to say :"I myself have gained confirmation of these ill-treatments on the occasion of an inspection tour through the Camp Oranienburg. At that time the commandant was SA Leader Schaefer. For a short time, conditions improved after my interference; then they deteriorated again I myself did not succeed in removing Schaefer, since he was backed by the SA leadership."
Is that true or is it not ? Did you men ill-treat Mr. Ebert, Mr. Heilman, Paul Loewe, and Lubaschek ? Did they ill-treat then or did they not ?
A. May I please be permitted to give an explanation in this connection ?
Q. Say yes or no.
A. (No response)
Q. Kindly give an explanation.
A. I cannot give an explanation in this form. Mr. Loewe was never an inmate of Oranienburg; Mr. Lubaschek, to my knowledge, never was an inmate at Oranienburg. Here Mr. Diehls is decisively mistaken. It is true, however, that the son of the Reich President, Ebert, was an inmate, and it is al true that Mr. Heilmann was an inmate there. But in this connection, I should like to explain that both of those gentlemen. Ebert as well as Heilmann, were mistreated by other inmates after they had been brought in; and I personally saw to it that they were taken from that circle of inmates who had abused them, and that they were segregated.
Ebert himself was dismissed very soon; that is, after a few weeks of his interment. He and Heilmann did not complain to me personally about the mistreatment, the abuses given by co-inmates. Those are things that I heard, and I took steps immediately to prevent those things from happening again. your endeavor in the Oranienburg Concentration Camp to try to give the inmates a life consistent with human dignity. Do you remember saying that to the Commissioner, "a life consistent with human dignity?" And is that the kind of life you gave to Ebert and Heilmann?
A (No response).
Q I presume the answer is yes, is it not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot answer this question as simply as you want me to. I did not give an explanation just now according to which Heilmann or Ebert might have been subjected to conditions inconsistent with human dignity. I remember having said that they were not submitted to further mistreatment by other inmates.
Q I did not ask you what you said just now; I asked you what you said before the Commission. And you said before the Commission that you endeavored to give the inmates a "life consistent with human dignity", did you not ?
Q Do you remember saying it or not? with human dignity ?
Q You did ?
had any connection with human dignity. They, of course, led a life like the life any other inmate would have to load in a camp of that sort-
AAnd it may be quite understandable, Mr. Prosecutor. prominent persons in considerable numbers, according to your own evidence, and you said that you wanted to give them all a life of human dignity. But let us not waste any time on this. Let me show you your own book.
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is 2824-PS, and it is United States Exhibit 423. That is the book written by the witness, entitled "Oranienburg Concentration Camp", published in 1934. BY MR. BARRINGTON: a sarcastic vein about the people who came into the camps. Do you see the very short passage where you say--and I think this sums up perhaps your whole attitude as to the object of your camp: "The moment had at last come when our old SA men could refresh the memory of some of those provocateurs who had been especially in the foreground politically". Do you. see that?
A (No response.) in your book; but do you see the passage? It is marked between brackets. the memories of some of these provocateurs? I thought you said just now that it was the other inmates of the concentration camps who refreshed their memory. It is your own SA men, is it not, who refreshed the memory of abort and Heilmann?