OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERNATIONAL LIC, THE.
I UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will sit in closed session tomorrow afternoon at 2;00 o'clock. That is to say, it will not sit in open session after 1:00 o'clock tomorrow.
Mr. Barrington, had you finished ?
MR. BARRINGTON: Yes, My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other Chief prosecutors who want to cross examine ? Then, Dr. Boehm, do you wish to re-examine ?
DR. BOEHM (Counsel for the S.A.): Mr. President, I should like to ask a few brief questions on the cross-examination yesterday. BY DR. BOEHM: briefly as possible. Do you know the basic formula which prevailed in the SA namely, copal rights to everyone ?
A Yes, I know this formula. It was taught at the school. mentioned yesterday meant nothing except the respect held for him in the community for his achievements in the Third Reich ? to keep the rules and legal descriptions. anything different from the expect of the SA man for the political soldier ?
A The SA man had no privileges. He could obtain no privileged rank in view of his official capacity, but other wise he was subordinate to all legal responsibility.
ple, armed. He had an SA dagger. From Sturmfuehrer on, he had firearms for which he needed a license like every German who wanted to carry firearms. in question here, was there a right for the individual to use this pistol against other members of the State? ny other citizen, had to know that he could use it only in emergencies for his own defense. high position of the SA man must not be reduced by Einsatz Groups. to have a special form of right. But never--that was repeatedly emphasized--could he overstep the existing laws. use weapons that were entrusted with him in executive of his work and for legal self-protection. Does this not say that the SA man, like every other German citizen, had to obey the existing rules concerning the carrying of weapons?
A. I have already said so once. The SA man was subject to the existing rules. That is shown by the fact that he needed a police license and his use of the weapon was limited.
Q. Was it not true that the SA man, because he was in the SA and because more was demanded from him than from any other citizen, that he would received were severe punishment in connection with an offense committed with his weapon?
A. An order was in existence that the SA man, when he was on trial, was to be punished especially severely or special standards are to be employed if he committed any offense.
Q. From the service regulations of the 12th of September 1933, it was read yesterday that all violations of discipline were to be punished, Does that not mean that violations of discipline were punished by the Gruppen SA leadership and that order was the principle?
A. The leaders and the schools worked to see to it that every SA man stayed within the legal limits. In addition, we had strict orders that the SA man, if he had committed any offense in his civil life, that he had to be reported and that a report was made to us by the judicial authorities and then the person in question was given disciplinary punishment.
Q. According to the document which was shown to you yesterday, of the 2th of December 1933, on page 33, No. 6, it says "Right is what aids the movement; wrong is what herms it," Did this mean anything more that the English say "Right or wrong, it is my Fatherland".
A. As I interpreted, it means that the man has rights in the framework of his duties and that if he does wrong, if he moves outside of legality he harms his Fatherland.
Q. The training directives were shown to you. They were on page 7 and on page 9. Now, I ask it -- it mentions "sports" and so forth; was anything done in the Olympic games except what is mentioned here? Did not the athletes march into the stadium in order which was made possible only by exercise? Did they not shoot, drill; did they not carry on sports, all the forms of sports which are listed here?
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think this is really more argument than examination? we have has this argument as to whether or not it was for snort of whether or not for military purposes over and over again. We have got to make up our minds about it. It doesn't help very much to have it put in again in redirect examination.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President. I would not have asked this question if the witness had not been referred to the fact that the last of the exercises in these training directives -- I should like to point out that the other exercises also which are listen here, were carried out in the Olympics. I hardly believe that their involves a military or militaristic attitude. Then I should like to point out one thing to the witness or ask one question. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. You did not answer my previous question. Were not the same exercises or similar ones carried out in the Olympics?
A. I was interrupted by the President. I, myself, was present at the Olympics and I know the individual Arms of sport well. We carried out all the drills in such a way that we could appear in public in a disciplined fashion like all sport organizations. Because we were later to carry on those big battle exercises, we took discipline from the Olympics. These were talked and practiced by us. We shot; we had the obstacle race and we used all these disciplines in our training.
submitted to you yesterday, it says that in the drill---this would be the only one which ressembles military training---the training has to start with the greatest efforts. After practice of the basic movement applied drill tests are to be set, as they occur in drill movement, resulting from training movements necessary in political assignment. From the wording of these instructions, did you think of military training or militaristic training When it was a question of drill within the SA? individual as well as closed formations was always for the purpose that in a public appearance a unified picture night be presented.
DR. BOEHM : I have no more questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT : The witness can retire.
DR. BOEHM : I should like to call the next witness, Schaefer. and testified as follows BY THE PRESIDENT :
Q Is that your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after no : will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT : You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Witness, what are you by profession?
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP or any of its branches?
Q Were you a member of the SA?
A Since 1932 I have been a member of the SA; as an Oberfuehrer since 1938. thousand local assembly places of the SA. were used as sites for arrests. Do you know anything about that and is any such statement true? I Know knothing. isted in that number? have known of them; in fact, a few of these places did exist but shortly after the consolidation of circumstances, they were dissolved or taken over by the Gestapo and administered by the Gestapo. I am of the opinion that they were an emergency measure in the period of 1933?
A Yes, it was definitely an emergency measure. At the time we Were in a state of latent civil war in Germany. It was therefore necessary for opponents to be arrested in order to carry out what the Fuehrer had ordered. --- the non-blood execution of the revolution.
in confiscationg the weapons was fulfilling an assignment of the State?
A Yes. The Prussian Minister, Goering, had ordered this. He used the SA as an auxilliary police.
Q Dr. Diehls says in an affidavit that it was his task to prevent the transfer of the political police into the SA and to follow up many complaints about illegal actions by the SA, since some SA fuehrers appointed as police presidents from July to November, 1933, had allowed lawless circumstances to arise. What do you have to say about this statement of Dr. Diehls? relationship with the SA Chief of Staff Roehm and also in a friendly relationship with the chief of the Berlin-Brandenburg Group, Ernst. Therefore, I cannot understand his attitude that he considered it his main task as chief of the Gestapo to follow up any complaints which ware received against the SA. I should like to say that it was precisely in order that the undisciplined elements which could damage the movement and the SA were kept from doing so within the SA by a special staff headed by the Gestapo; and it was Gruppenfuehrer Ernst who at that time and in his own unit in the concentration camp at Oranienburg arrested such undisciplined elements. It was, therefore, not a task of the head of the Gestapo to operate against undisciplined elements of the SA or the movement; but these tasks were quite clearly on another level. This limited the very excessive activity and especially limited it to Berlin. the was removed by Hitler in June, 1934?
A I know Helldorf from the activity of the SA Fuehrer in Berlin. Shortly after he seizure of Paris, he was for a short time in the Prussian Ministry of the interior and was then police president in Pottsdam; and as such the police president, Count Helldorf, did everything necessary in order to insure an orderly police constitution. For this purpose he employed old, reliable police officials. He was superior in this capacity. As to the concentration camp, Oranienburg, I must ate that frequently in Oraneinburg. He made surprise visits and inspected the asures which had been ordered. He was known to me as a man who advocated the solute maintenance of discipline.
Q I show you Diehls' statement, which says that the SA formetions entered prisons, stole prisoners, took away files, and established themselves in the buildings of the police. Is that true? Did such circumstances ever exist?
A I cannot recall such circumstances. They should have been known to me, for I was frequently in Berlin; and I must say that I did not learn of any such thing Later I should have had to hear something about it when I became an official in the Penal Execution Administration of the Reich. The Berlin colleagues would certainly have reported such events to me afterwards. This was not done. We were at that time Commandant of Oranienburg and were in Berlin almost every day, together with the men of the police or of the Gestapo. Even if I was not in Berlin every day, I was there quite frequently so that it certainly would not have escaped my notice.
Q Is Diehls' assertion true that it was his task in order to avoid mass murders to get the SA into the hands of the states? In his affidavit for the SA he says that fifty people were the victims of the revolution in Berlin. Is this true?
A This statement of Diehls' is doubtless not true. I can say that it in no way corresponded to the ideology of the SA to remove political opponents through mass murder. As Diehls himself says in his affidavit, he gives the figure of fifty victims in Berlin. This figure proves what I say. One must not forget that a large part of the political opponents of yesterday were now marching with the SA. If such an intention had existed at all to remove the political opponents by mass murder, the execution of this intention would have found the greatest resistance in the SA itself; and I may say frankly here that what Diehls asserts was in no way true.
Q Is it true that Diehls' position became untenable as a result of constant conflict with the SA? He says that in his affidavit for the Gestapo; but he says that he must admit that he was the Regierungs President of Hannover and Cologne. the SA leadership. I do not believe that that is true as he said. For a few years later, I found him in very close relationship to the Chief of Staff Lutze; and on a later trip to the Emms district, he was in a very friendly relationship to the Chief of Staff Lutze and the fact that he was Regierungspresident in Cologne and especially the fact that he was Regierungspresident with the Chief of Staff Lutze in Hannover contradict this statement, according to which he had difficulties with the SA.
citizens? He says in his affidavit for the SA that the staff of Ernst and the intelligence section set up participated primarily in the revolutionary activity ing. If some cases occurred which probably cannot be denied, I should like to say that the generalization of these individuals cases does not agree with the truth. There is no justification here to generalize individual cases which doubt less occurred. One must not forget that such individual cases were absolutely possible. I may recall that the brown shirt, which the SA man had to buy himself could be found in all the stores in Berlin and in the whole Reich; and I learned personally of a number of cases when obscure elements who did not belong to the SA or to the movement which was established later not the opportunity to commit illegal actions under the protection of the party uniform. This finally led to the party uniforms having to be put under legal protection.
Q You know that Diehls was Gestapo chief in 1933 and 1934; and if one reads that the SA took the property away from peaceful citizens, the question arises whether he tries to transfer Gestapo customs to the SA.
A I must say that this assertion if Diehls surprises me greatly. As I have said, he was at that time in very close relationship to the leaders of the SA. I cannot see how he comes to make this assertion. forty illegal camps. Can you say how many concentration camps actually existed at this time?
A I do not have any statistical material; but I should like to attempt to investigate this figure of forty thousand internees, and particularly the number of forty camps which Diehls mentioned. During 1933 the circumstances arose that Oranienburg, Berlin, and Brandenburg were the only camps for political opponents A few of the camps which had existed were dissolved. There could not have been many prisoners in them, for they were transferred to Oranienburg. There was only a very small number of prisoners.
at the most, and considers that this camp was for a district of over 6 million people, if one considers further that Berlin was the center of the political opponents of the NSDAP and had an extraordinarily large proportion of active political opponents, then I cannot imagine the number of 40,000 internees. The number of 40 camps I do not know at all. I never heard anything about this number, not even from Diehls with whom I was personally very friendly, and I should have known of this figure.
Q Diehls speaks of approximately 40,000 prisoners. Could you give an approximate figure which might be more correct?
A That is extremely difficult to say. I should like to say that the Christmas amnesty ordered by Prime Minister Goering at that time -- and I should like to emphasize this particularly -- was carried out on a very generous scale This Christmas amnesty permits a certain conclusion. Then, in all of Prussia, 5,000 -- I recall this figure -- internees were dismissed from the existing camps. Oranienburg, for instance, which as I said was the only recognized and state controlled camp for Berlin, and Brandenburg, reduced the number of prisoners to a little more than 100. Over two-thirds of the camp were released, at that time.
Q You were commandant in Oranienburg?
Q From when to when?
Q This camp was guarded by SA men?
Q From when to when?
Q And to whose orders were these men subject?
A These SA men were members of the auxiliary police. As such they were under my direct orders as commandant.
Q And to whom were you subordinate as camp commandant? competent for Oranienburg, who was located in Potsdam, Police President Count Helldorf, and, of course, the Prussian Minister of the Interior.
have on the concentration camp Oranienburg? camp itself, and on the conduct and the administration of the concentration camp he had no influence. meant terror measures of the SA? camps who were released? small number of such camps and a small number of internees in them, for I have already explained that to me, to Oranienburg the only camp in existence then, only a few internees were transferred. A large part had already been released. in the rest of Germany? in relation to the figure of internees in Prussia, which was given before, the number of 50,000 is absolutely incredible. Prussia was physically the largest part of Germany, and if there were few internees there in proportion, I cannot imagine that in the rest of the Reich there were 50,000. I do not know this figure.
Q What do you knew about cooperation with the Gestapo in the beginning? It had only official connections arising; from the relation of the police to the auxiliary police, the SA. In the course of the year, persons who had been arrested were sent there, and at the direction of the Prussian Minister of the Interior these prisoners were released when their cases had been reviewed. and the Gestapo in Berlin? I would not like to conceal at this paint. Two internees were sent in by the Gestapo from Berlin in a severely mistreated condition.
On the next day, I went to see the Standartenfuehrer Schutzewechsler who was my superior, and asked him to apply to the Gestapo in Prinz Albrecht Strasse with me, and to demand an explanation which I would then make the subject of a report to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior. telephone by Standartenfuehrer Schutzewechsler, and he told me that he had just learned that the concentration camp Oranienburg was to be dissolved immediately; I was to come to Berlin; he wanted to go to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior with me to investigate why the dissolution of the camp had been ordered so suddenly. our great astonishment that after our protest on the previous day at Prinz Albrecht Strasse, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior had been called up and informed that in view of these cases of mistreatment -- referring to these two cases which I myself was trying to clear up -- it had become necessary to dissolve Oranienburg. The suggestion of Prinz Albrecht Strasse was that all the prisoners of Oranienburg were to be put in new camps built by the SS in the Emms district. necessary explanations, what had induced me on the previous day to protest at Prinz Albrecht Strasse, he promised me to have the circumstances investigated thoroughly, and he did it immediately. In my presence he told Ministerialdirigent Fischer to carry on the investigation of the affair. Fischer was known as a thoroughly correct and reliable old official, and Fischer then actually found that the things were as I had described them to Krauet. It was established clearly that these cases of mistreatment which had been charged against Oranienburg had occured in the Gestapo in Berlin. Then the camp was not dissolved. SA camps to liberate prisoners? Q You did not experience them in Oranienburg?
your opinion, to when are the released which took place primarily due?
A Various sources were responsible for the release of prisoners: first, the competent Regierungspresidente and Landra ete who, on the basis of the constant claims of the relatives of a ternees, knew the circumstances exactly. The camp itself, and I as commandant of the camp, had an important part in the release of internees. After investigation in some of the cases, I made suggestions for release, but I must say that above all it was Prime Minister Goering himself who at the time had great interest in seeing to it that the Oranienburg camp should not be stuffed full of prisoners, but that as many as possible should be released. Christmas amnesty, in which he said that Prime Minister Goering had urged the Fuehrer that at Christmas very extensive -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): Dr. Boehm, the Tribunal is not trying this witness. It is trying the criminality of the SA. This is far too detailed about the release of prisoners. He seems not to have got further than 1933 up to the present. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q I should like to ask one more question. On Christmas 1933, how many people were still there?
Q Did you ever have any personal differences with Mr. Diehls?
A No, not at all. On the contrary. In 1934, when I wrote a book about Oranienburg, he offered his services to write the introduction for this book; and he always praised the camp. Fritzsche? was there from March, 1933 to 1934, was sentenced to death? It is evident that was you, isn't it?
A That is best evidenced by the fact that I am here. Of course it isn't true. investigation of mistreatment which took place in Oranienburg, was carried out? mentioned before. Namely, the case of the Gestapo and the Seger case. Official investigations were conducted.
Q What were the results of the investigations? ment which were charged against us, had actually occurred in the Gestapo in Berlin, and in the Seger case, it was proved that Seger had made statements contrary to the truth. he learned from individuals in the Gestapo or the SS? guards thoroughly knew my attitude, but, moreover, the inmates of the camp also knew it. purge, to the extent that Gauleiters and SA Fuehrers who had misused their power were removed? this opinion. Do you know it?
A Yes. Seger sent me this book himself. for prosecution of the complaints which he makes?
Q And what did the Ministry of Justice do?
A The competent prosecutor for the locality of Seger's former residence questioned me thoroughly. A thorough investigation was carried out, with the result that, as far as I can recall, the Reichsgericht (Reichs Court) in Leipzig stopped the proceedings.
Q Do you know that Seger accused you of murder?
Q Was this case cleared up?
A This is Seger's accusation -- that I had been responsible for the shooting of two internees. This case was thoroughly cleared up -- so clearly, that when this book was read to the internees in the camp, on my orders, one person who had been reported shot by Seger, stood up and reported that he was alive and well, while the other one was already with his family; had already been released; that it was purely disproved by the two men who were supposed to have been shot.
Q The statement of fact as given by Seger must be called a lie then? their right of secret ballot according to the Weimar Constitution?
A That is also true. On the occasion of the plebiscite, on the further participation of Germany in the League of Nations, the prisoners participated in the election under the legal rules, as laid down in the Weimar Constitution.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, I have already pointed out to you that we think this might get a little to something more important. We are still dealing with 1933 or the beginning of 1934, in the Camp Oranienburg.
MR. BOEHM: Mr. President, this SA is charged only with the camp Oranienburg, and actually the SA had Oranienburg only from March, 1933, to March, 1934. It was not possible -
THE PRESIDENT: That we understand, that this witness tells us that the camp was administered in a perfectly satisfactory and proper condition, and we don't desire details of every day during 1933 and 1934.
DR. BOEHM: I expected the book of Seger would be submitted in cross examination. Perhaps the Tribunal will be interested that this book -
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, if it is submitted in cross examination, the witness will then be able to answer questions which are put upon the book. It isn't necessary for you to anticipate possible cross examination.
DR. BOEHM: Very well. May I continue? Is the assertion of Seger true that Gauleiter Loeber of Dessau visited you in Oranienburg, and slapped you?
WITNESS SCHAEFER: No, that is not true. I never saw Gauleiter Loeber. I never know him. Loeber was never in Oranienburg and I never met him on any other occasion either. There was never any altercation between us. intended to poison relations between peoples -- can you confirm this attitude by facts? received an enormous number of threatening letters, from which I had to see that the false reports which were given on Oranienburg, had led to the situation that perfect strangers whom I did not know, and who did not know me now felt it necessary -
THE PRESIDENT: What you are speaking of now -- when did those articles appear, and when did you receive threatening letters?
THE WITNESS: '33, '34.
THE PRESIDENT: Those appeared there, and you received those letters her
THE WITNESS: Yes. BY DR. BOEHM: Oranienburg subject?
Q And to whom was Oranienburg itself subordinate? is, the superior of the Regierungspresident, the Prussian ministry of the Interior. The SA was called upon for service within the SA auxiliary police and the State. In this case, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior used the SA Gruppe and the SA brigade and Standarte. My SA Fuehrer was also an auxiliary policeman, and thus the orders reached me through these channels from above. For discipline, I was under the SA, and for state measures, I was directly subordinate to the State. establishment of this camp from the SA Standarte. How is that true?
A That was according to the channels which I have just given. The State SA Gruppe Standarte Fuehrer is the man responsible for the use of the auxiliary police, and so, through him, from the State, I received the assignment to establish the camp.
Q How many persons were brought to the Oranienburg camp? What persons ? Camp, Then there were elements of the movement and the SA, who through conduct contrary to discipline, had made this necessary. For this purpose there was a special section in Oranienburg, and informers, who acting for their own personal advantage, had informed on political opponents, were also placed under arrest. And then there were a small group of people who did sympathize with the NSDAP, that could have caused foreign political difficulties through extraterritoriality. I remember the leader of the Russian National Socialists in Berlin, who had to be arrested in Oranienburg because he was causing political difficulties.
He had to be taken out of public life for a short time. uprising was to be expected against the existing government? of time. Those were very extensive supplies of weapons which were found in a very good -
THE PRESIDENT: We had this already today, about the confiscation of weapons.
DR. BOEHM: No.
THE PRESIDENT: I have written it down myself. I heard it.
DR. BOEHM: I don't want to have it repeated, Mr. President. In times of revolution, of course, members of the SA and the NSDAP made raids. How do you explain that?
WITNESS SCHAEFER: It was, in the first place, a group of political hot heads, who in such a time of revolution, of course, went far beyond the measure in the goal set for them, but as I have already said clearly, there were obscure elements who were uncontrolled, perhaps uncontrollably within the SA and within the party, because they were uncontrolled from outisde. These elements, of course, had the best opportunity to commit punishable actions at the time of their seizure of power, but may I make emphasis that we did everything possible to take strict stops whenever such occurrences were reported to us. The party formed its own corps for this purpose, which was known for a fact that without consideration of persons or position, it took action.
Q What was the basis of arrests in concentration camps?
Q By whom was this order issued?
Q For what work were the people in the concentration camps employed? internal administration, and then also for agricultural work. improper treatment ?
A. Through my constant contact with the internees I always stayed in the camp a very long time. I occasionally learned of improper conditions, and can give the assurance here that I did everything possible to remove such conditions as soon as I had learned of them.
Q. In the time during which this camp was guarded by SA members were there any executions?
A. No. Q. Were there any machines for torture or the extermination of human beings while you were commandant?
A. No.
Q. Who was in charge of guarding the camp after you?
A. After me the SA had it a few months, about two months, and then the SS took Oranienburg over.
Q. And did you, as the first Commandant of the camp, have anything to say about that?
A. The camp was taken over not because of any inadequacies or improper conditions, but after the 30th of June the SS was to direct these concentration camps. The Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler took over the concentration camps and administered them with his men. The SA in 1934 was completely eliminate from the concentration camps.
Q. I should like to ask, did you have occasion on the basis of any illegal actions, to take action against the men?
A. Of course they were punished. If the offenses seemed more important, I was obligated to report them to the responsible agency -- that is, the state. I proceeded against two Sturmbannfuehrers and one Sturmfuehrer who were assigned to me. I had to make such reports about them. These three men were immediately removed from their positions and they were put on trial.
Q. Did you yourself inflict punishments, and what -
THE PRESIDENT: Wasn't this gone into before the Commission?
DR. BOEHM: In part, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: You are dealing with the case of three officers at the moments. Either it was gone into before the Commission or it was not.
DR. BOEHM: It was mentioned before the Commission, Mr. President. What was to be added today was the question whether SA men, not only these three officers, but SA men, were punished and dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you can pass on from the three officers. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. Is it true that in addition to these officers of whom you spoke before the Commission, SA men were also dismissed who were connected with this matter?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Is it true that because of the direction of the camp you yourself were under or subject to the punishment of the Ministry of Justice?
A. In 1934 I was taken over by the Ministry of Justice. I took over the Emms installations as commander. I became director of a penal institution in the course of a year.
Q. In this connection it may be necessary to investigate -- what do you understand by "SA auxiliary police"?
A. The SA auxiliary police was, as the name says, an auxiliary organ of the police. So that the revolution might be carried out without "bloodshed it was necessary that conditions might be supervised. Since the police forces available were not adequate, the state made use of a comparatively small number of SA men whose previous lives had to be without reproach. Old and experienced police officials inaugurated them into their duties, and then they carried on their service together with the police. But this was only a temporary measure.
Q. As what did you as Commandant of Camp Oranienburg see your task?
A. It was my task primarily to direct the camp as ordered, correct the measures which were taken, and to guard the internees.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I interfere with the greatest possible reluctance with Dr. Boehm's examination, but I cannot think that he has appreciated the instruction which Your Lordship has repeated to defense counsel on several occasions during the last week.