Q. Witness, you were active in the police and were armed. By whom were you armed ?
A. As far as I know, the SA units were treated in state emergencies as auxiliary police and in each case were armed by the competent authorities by whom they were employed, and were essentially led by the military or police agencies.
Q. You know that special units were established in the SA. Please tell me what the tasks of these special units were.
A. These special units were created in the SA in the first place to correspond to the peculiar characteristics of the country, in one hand, the people living near the ocean or these living in the mountains, or in the second place to give the technical abilities of the SA men opportunity. Training in these was, in general, the same as in other SA Sturme. Only to the extent that these Sturme had information material at their disposal or could obtain it as it applied to these special field was service in these special fields carried on. units and technical units for our big parades, for the demonstrations and so forth, because we could be completely independent here. For example in carrying out a big Party rally in Nurnberg, it was absolutely essential to be able to direct 100,000 men, for us to have intelligence means and engineering means to make the arrangements ourselves for these rallies, and it was the same with the individual guards. There also, the intelligence units were set up for such purposes. units were used, in a sense, for service in catastrophe and protection against catastrophe, for which the SA was employed.
Q. For what purpose did the SA keep musicians' units ?
A. They belonged to the marching units when they wanted to appear for Propagandistic and recruiting purposes. In addition, they needed these musicians' units for the big rallies of the Party.
Q. From what point of view was assignment in the SA made ?
A. I should like to say that that varied greatly everywhere. In the first place, it was according to purely Party viewpoints, and as I said in regard to these special units, for the Party rally parades and so forth, for the meetings, for the distribution of handbills, and so forth. for the parade in such a Way that they would be a good means of recruitement in the demonstration, and finally, for service in catastrophes which had to be practiced in order to be effective.
Q. Did the SA members perform, their obligations ?
A. As far as I could see in my units, the SA men performed their duty gladly, only there were great difficulties for the men, difficulties arising from the men's occupational duties. For example, a worker in the Ruhr District could, of course, not always be available at a camp for his service lly in the country districts it was very difficult. It was limited to the fall and winter months when training could be carried on.
Q. Did the SA men perform their duty according to their oath or in blind obedience ?
A. The SA man performed his duty voluntarily. He followed, according to an oath, the orders which were given to him. The oath was that he, the SA man, was obligated to absolute obedience to his superior unless illegal things Were demanded of him. That is about how it read. Service in the SA was voluntary, you said. Do you know of no cases in which the principle of voluntary service was broken ?
A. It may be that units appeared with the SA who were not built up on a voluntary basis. I am speaking, for example, of the Reich schools or the Sturme which were recruited primarily from students later on.
Q. Were there Punishments in the SA ? Was there a code of punishment and why was it necessary ?
A. There was a penal code in the SA and there were punishments. The SA had to have these in order to maintain discipline and order in its ranks. One must consider that in the SA we had people from all sections of the population, and that after the seizure of power we received an enormous number of people into our ranks, all of whom we could not oversee, so disciplinary and penal codes had to be created in order to maintain order and discipline.
There was no prison punishment in the SA. So-called arrest sentences were provided for which were intended primarily for the schools In all my time, I never needed to use them.
Q. From the fact of the existence of a penal code, can one not conclude a military character of the SA ?
A. Not according to my opinion. One must have punishments in any organization.
Q. What other regulations were there in the SA ?
A. There was a general service regulation in the SA; there was a uniform regulation, a medical regulation, and the drill order.
Q. Why was this drill regulation necessary ? Must one not conclude a military character of the SA from it ?
A. The drill regulation was a regulation for exercise. It was created in the SA in order that the units which were to march would give the necessary good picture. These exercises concerned the appearance, the bearing of the men, and were primarily to effect marching discipline. A comparison with the service regulations of the Army is not possible, for as I know these regulations of the Army, they include drill With arms in the forms of battle, while we had only physical exercises.
training?
A There was an SA sport insignia. After 1939, after the decree of the 19th of January, it was called the Defense Insignia. This SA Sport or Defense Insignia was an award for achievement; like the German Sport Insignia it was an award for achievement. It included Group 1, so-called physical exercises, that is for physical achievement; Group 2, defense sport exercises; and Group 3, water service and mental exercises. That is how they were taught and practiced. This defense insignia had the purpose of achieving moral defense among the SA. By that I mean there was taught in the schools first a mental attitude toward defense in the sense of a patriotic conviction, the training of the men for defense and for self-consciousness, and finally the maintaining of the physical strength through bodies trained in sports. possible on a large scale, or was special preparation necessary? long preparation. It was clear that this insignia first had to be taught by corresponding men and leaders and that corresponding training had to be given before the execution of this insignia could be carried out on a broad basis. In addition, in the execution of this insignia, essentially and primarily in the country we lacked the necessary means. Thus it came about that after the reestablishment of this Sport Insignia in 1935 the Sport Insignia had to be carried into the life of the SA men gradually year after year. In addition, to work for this Sport or Defense Insignia was not the main task which we had in the SA but taking this test was more or less voluntary and supplementary in intention and execution. judged from a military point of view? point of view but, as I said, like the Reich Sport Insignia, as an Insignia of achievement. Essentially it included the disciplines which were included in to German Sport Insignia or in any other sport discipline; for example, the obstacle races, hammer throw, spear throwing, swimming, etc.
the defense of the country. What do you have to say to that? role in the defense of a country. What schools were there in the SA?
A There were four possibilities of training in the SA. First, the so-called week-end training, covering free Saturdays and Sundays. At these week-end courses the lower ranks, the Scharfuehrer and Trupp fuehrers were primarily trained. This was a so-called elementary training for the lower units. This was only a brief training which could be held when necessary. The next school was the so-called SA Gruppenschulen (Group School), that is within the district of a Gruppe. It included the Sturmfuehrer and lasted about two weeks. At the so-called SA Gruppenschulen the purpose of the training was the formation of comradeship in the Sturmfuehrer, to introduce them into general SA service in their Sturme, to instruct them briefly in sport activities and at the same time to introduce them to the discipline of the Sport or Defense Insignia. Furthermore, questions of the day were discussed, brief general mental training, and, finally, an examination of their achievements, ability and character. The next school was the Reichschulen (Reich Schools). They were primarily for the middle leaders, the Sturmbannfuehrer and Standartenfuehrer. The service was more or less the same as at the Gruppenschulen only one step higher. Generally there was an examination of the ability and achievement of the individual and of his character, and an introduction to the SA service at the rank represented. These schools were also...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, can't you condense this a little bit? We have got this all. You are going straight through the examinations as far as can make out, where you know we don't want that.
DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President, I will try to condense it a little. What do you have to say to that? Officers for the Wehrmacht, of course.
schools, only trained for SA Fuehrers and nothing else.
Q Were drills with arms carried out at these schools? trained men of the SA were sent to the Wehrmacht. What do you have to say to that? military service no matter to what organization he belonged. The SA did not train any soldiers. In 1940 I myself served in the Wehrmacht as a simple soldier and became an officer, although I had been inspector of the SA Gruppenschulen. any way? no right to inspect the schools. defense training in the SA? connected with a clear political idea. As for military training in a military spirit we understood as training in physical, mental, and spiritual attitude, nothing else. the 19th of January, 1939. How about this order? Was it carried out or not?
A This order of the 19th of January was not carried out. Immediately after the outbreak of war, When all the preparations involved in this order had not been concluded, the commander-in-chief of the army repealed it and postponed it until the end of the war. Chief of Staff Lutze intended on the. 1st of October to have an experimental beginning of this training but this was not done. At the beginning of the war everything was still in an experimental stage and in a preparatory stage.
Q. Can one say that the decree of the Fuehrer of the 19th of January, 1939, can be interpreted to mean that this was in a logical development to the work of the SA before 1939?
A. As I could see it, no. The state of training of the SA when the decree was issued was not such that one could speak of an analogous continuation. Our whole training from 1934 to 1939 was only a general sport training. Otherwise, in my opinion, there would have been no need for any agreement between, the SA and the commanders in chief of the three branches of the Wehrmacht. In the second place, immediately after the 19th of January we could have begun, and in the third place, the training of the SA fuehrers, as far as I know, was about 30% not military training. To be able to fulfill even the slightest military demands these leaders would no doubt first have had to learn in the army what had to be done for this training.
Q. Can one say that in the field of pre-military and post-military training as originally ordered, any practical execution ever took place?
A. In my opinion, no. In the first place, this order was given only on the 19th of January, not before, and it was never carried out. In the second place, it could not be, because it was to begin only on the first of October. No men could come back, since on the first of September the war had begun. Only the preparations were made of a technical and financial nature, and perhaps the general considerations of how and in what way this order could be carried out.
Q. And then an order was given that this activity concerning Premilitary and post-military traaining of the SA should be stopped?
A. As far as I know, this was issued by the commander-in-chief of the army. In the second place, by the party chancellory in the same way that this measure was to be put aside, and if I recall rightly, this letter of the party chancellory in cluded further instructions that this whole decree of the 19th of January, because of the difficulties connected with the youth organizations and with the party units -- execution by the SA alone was to be reviewed and perhaps given up entirely.
Q. Did the SA have the financial possibility for creating training opportunities, especially in the special units?
A. The SA had very slight opportunity. For example, the SA Sturm had 80 to 120 men. A Standarte had about 800 to 1200 men. An SA Gruppe had about 2500 to 3500. I can't say exactly. These means were just sufficient in order. to cover the immediate needs for the offices. For any larger undertakings, for our special units, we had hardly any means. If from time to time We received any funds, than those were only smaller amounts which were distributed over the SA leadership. Generally, however, and I believe I have mentioned that, our SA men, especially in the special units, Sondereinheiten, to the extent of about 90%, manufactured their tools themselves or from means which the had collected from friends of acquaintances or had brought with them.
Q. Witness, there was some shooting in the SA, among other things. Witness you well us what kind of weapons that shooting was carried on with and how Any of these weapons were at the disposal of the individual leaders?
A. The SA carried out shooting exercises on ranges with small caliber weapons and in part also with proper guns. At any rate, at various leader meetings we had shooting competition, but just as a matter of entertainment. Some SA men and units on private rifly ranges or clubs from time to time were carrying out competitions in regular shooting. The rifles which we had, the number of rifles, was very small. I remember -
THE PRESIDENT: We wurely don't want the details of these rifles. You have probably got it all in your hearings at the Commission, the details of the particular caliber of the rifles.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, this witness was also only named for two questions, the question of military training in the SA and several questions in connection with the newspaper "Der SA Mann," the publication. I believe that I have only a few more questions to put to this witness altogether. BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. You have spoken about schools before -- troop schools, and so on. During the war were these schools continued?
A. Shortly after the beginning of the war -- no, I would rather say immediately at the beginning of the war, the largest number of these SA school were transferred to Berlin. Only a few were still continued. The reason for that was that in the course of time more and more SA men and leaders were inducted into the armed forces, and on the other hand these who remained at home by their occupation were kept so busy that they could no longer carry out there service in the SA to the fullest extent, and especially at school.
Q. Now I should like to ask about another subject, the last one which would like to discuss with you, and that is the publication "The SA Man". Can we consider "The SA Man" as an official publication of the supreme SA leadership?
A. No, I did not consider it an official publication because I know that "The SA Mon", that is, the publication, had not been published by the SA leadership. I was a publication such as many others.
Q. What was the attitude of the supreme SA leadership to that publication
A. The supreme SA leadership has published official statements -- office publications, such as promotions or announcements of a similar nature, in that publication. Apart from that, the contents were similar to those of other publications. ship have any influence on that publication.
A. No, I had no influence on that publication. I only know that my superior, the Hauptamtschef, meaning the chief of the office, had tried repeatedly to get a special section in that publication for the purpose of training -- a publication about training. It was not possible, though. I do not know for what readon, but I have always assumed that they were purely business matters which made that impossible.
Q. Now was that publication "The SA Man" used for training purposes with in the SA?
A. I have not noticed that. I have not experienced that, not seen it. That publication was distributed in schools and was read there such as other purblications were, but for special training purposes, as much as I know, it was not used.
Q. There appeared in that publication articles about armament in other nations, a series of articles. Couldn't we say that these articles were published in order to give reason for our own armament?
A. In my opinion, that particular weekly was not as well distributed that it could have had any influence on important people or large numbers of people.
Q. Do you know of a publication within the SA which had been an official organ?
A. The Verordnungsblatt, the official Werordnungsblatt, the publication containing regulations of the supreme SA leadership, or for instance the SA Fuehrer, the "SA Leader" which was published by a special department in the supreme SA leadership.
12 Aug A LJG Fitzgerald in Dachau from the very beginning.
AAs much as I can recall, that was guarded by SS. I, myself, was never in that camp. Only later did I find out about the excesses of that camp. 30th of January to the old SA man; that is, what was the result as far as the SS man was concerned after the serious political confront of the "years before? And if I think back at that time today, I remember that I believe at first that on the basis of the tremendous political tensions and conflicts of the 12 years chat preceded that time, that just at that time, it would have to come to a tremendous erruption of jury and hatred and reprisals. I wish to state that within this sphere, which I could overlook, I had to see and could notice that the seizure of power passed quietly and that also the old SA man who from the fighting days still know conditions, was calm and remained calm and collected. which have occurred later on from 1933 to 1934 according to the statement which you have now given? judge so that in spite of discipline and order which had been commanded, they could only have committed by a few individuals or small groups, who did not understand the sense of our socialist revolution. That is the limitation, the full extent; or on the other hand there were Individuals who were thrown out of their regular ways and could not find their wry back to the order the sound order of their own state.
DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
12 Aug A 21-2 LJG Fitzgerald BY MR. BARRINGTON: trained only In political soldierdom. Did not "political soldier dom" mean that the SA non had special privileges in the State which, the ordinary German citizen had not? to have had.
Q. Was not the SA man one of the National Socialists' elite? ment and nothing else.
DR. BOEHM : Mr. President, our machinery does not work. We do not understand the question. The Witness only understands it In part because he understands some English.
MR. BARRINGTON: Would it be possible for Dr. Boehm to come and sit here? The German switch appears to be working all right here.
the president; Yes, I think so. If his earphones are not working properly he can get another pair. BY MR. BARRINGTON: behavior as an ordinary German citizen?
A To a much greater extent. The SA man performed his services voluntarily, and he was subject, In a particular measure, to the law. I have dealt for years with the turning out of thousands of SA men, and supporting then In their work. I had to take care of many poor and needy SA men.
Q. I ask you -- perhaps the translation did not come through correctly -- were there the same restraints, or restrictions, on the behavior of the SA men as there were on ordinary German citizens ?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I would ask you to tell me what restraints you mean. I do not know of any essential restraints.
Q. Is your answer no? There were no restraints? Or is it yes ?
A. I asked a question of the Prosecutor, what restraints are you referring to as not being the sane that the SA man had imposed upon him? That is how I understood the question.
Q. Was the SA man as from in his behavior, or was the SA man more tree in his behavior, than the ordinary German citizen?
A. (No response)
Q. If you cannot answer it, have a look for a moment at the general service regulations that you talked about just now.
MR. BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is on Page 30-A of Document Book B. It is Document 2820 PS, and is USA Exhibit 247. BY MR. BARRINGTON :
Q. Look furst at Affidavit I. I think it is on Page 9. Have you got it?
A. Yes.
Q. "The SA man is the political soldier of Adolf Hitler"; and a few lines further down : We therefore enjoys special prestige and has definite rights in the State."
Q. Do you deny that those words mean what they say? Wasn't the SA man in a privileged position?
A. (No response.)
Q Wasn't the SA man in a privileged position? much as I know about SA men, SA men were not in a privileged position. Besides, we are concerned here with the SA service regulation of 1933, which, according to my knowledge, was rescinded essentially in 1934, and -
Q I do not care when it was rescinded. It was issued on the 12th of December, 1933, was it not? And that was after the Hazis were in power?
A (No response.)
Q Well, you can say it says so on the top of it. Tell me what those definite rights in the State were that the SA man is said to have by Article I. What were the definite rights in the State? what did it mean? Every SA man read, that book? used, in the service of the State, or merely the police service, he, of course, had the privileges accorded, that particular service.
Q You cannot answer what they are, I suppose. Well, look at that Article 10 on Page 13. Have you got Article 10, Page 13?
Q "The exalted position of the SA man may not be degraded by insulting, slighting or unjust treatment".
How was the SA man "exalted." above other German citizens? or special duty.
Q What did it mean when it said he had "an exalted position", and he must not be insulted? He could insult other German citizens, could he not?
A (No response).
Q Was the SA man exalted above the Army? Yes or no? myself I never had any special privilege or assumed any special privilege, and therefore I cannot imagine that the SA man had any particular privilege or could have assumed any special privileges.
Q Very well, then; that is your answer. How, look at Article 18, Page 17:
"The SA man may use weapons which are entrusted to him only in execution of his service for legal self-protection". man's service might require the use of weapons other than selfdefense ? for emergency service (Notdienst); generally with regard to these service Populations, I would like to say that in my opinion it had been issued under Roehm at the time -
Q I do not want that. Roehm was chief of staff of the SA and what me issued presumably was law to the SA. And he says that they may use weapons only in execution of their service or for local self-Protection. ease could there be where the SA man's service should require the use of a weapon? If you cannot answer, say so. a question of my counsel, that the SA was armed only to the extent that it was active in carrying out functions of the State, and in the course of that service, use their weapons might be a military purpose, then?
A (No response) purpose, if they were called for that purpose?
police service, or police service as far as the SA was called on to do so. in the army, but you are asserting they might use them to assist the police, are you? service, police auxiliaries, this regulation in the General service Regulations of the SA was the regulation that applied to them?
Or did police regulations apply?
A (No response). of the police when they were auxiliary policement? That is what I want to know.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have only stated that which I have seen myself. I do not know what has been decreed in detail according to the service regulations. The SA man, as I have seen it, was armed whenever and as far as he was used in the State or police auxiliary service, or emergency service. would have to use his arms, except self-defense? Any other case?
A (No response) in this Article 18 were meant for was nothing more nor less than for the carrying out of the so-called SA action; is that not right?
Q THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you can answer the question. It is either right or it is wrong. You can say you were with the SA all this time. THE WITNESS: If the SA man used the weapons without being used himself for emergency service, then he became liable to punishment. Apart from that, the man was used only for emergency service. BY MR. BARRINGTON: used his weapons for a purpose that the SA did not approve of. But what I am saying new that he was encouraged -- indeed, ordered -- to use his weapons for actions which the SA did approve of?
A (No response) Look on in that little book to one more thing.
Look on to Page 33, No. 6 of the punishment order; page 33. Have you got Page 33?
Q Read the last sentence of the first paragraph, about punishment:
"Right is what is advantageous to who movement and wrong what harms it." Have you got that?
Q "Right is what is advantageous to the movement and wrong what harms it." movement, such as SA actions, is precisely the thing that the SA arms and weapons were meant to be used for; is that right or wrong? Will you answer that yes or no? they had to know for what purpose they used their SA men.
Q I do not think that has much to do with my question. Look again at that sentence, "Right is what is advantageous to the movement and wrong what harms it." Does that not show perfectly clearly that the Nazi Party regarded the SA as a privileged par by who were entitled to commit crimes if they were advantageous to the movement? tion act as an individual, as he wanted to. The regulation alone did not entitle his to do that.
MR. BARRINGTON: I have only got one more document. There are only two or three questions on it, Mr. Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR BARRINGTON: My Lord, the document is the first document in Book C. It is D-918. Oh, I beg your Lordship's pardon. It is Book 16-B. The document is D-918 and it will become GB-594. BY MR. BARRINTON:
Q Witness, I am not going to take you into any detail in this document. You can see what it is. It is Lutze's Training Directive for 1939, and you will see on Page 2 the date on which it was issued was the 4th of November, 1938, which was before Hitler's order about the pre- and post-military training. Now I have only one point to put to you on this document. You have maintained just now, have you, that the training of the SA was predominantly for sport; is that right? towards the achievement of the sport insignia and ideological and physical training generally.
Q But didn't you say that the emphasis was placed upon sport and not upon military tendencies? If you didn't say that, admit it. one thing, that the SA only had a wehrsportliches training; that is defense as sport training. As far as the physical -- the training of energy is concerned and the mental attitude is concerned, it was such as is stated here.
Q You don't deny then that that training had a military tendency behind it; do you deny that? The training for the sports insignia, had a military tendency behind it?
A For any kind of military training we had not received any mission. That was moral education. And I should like to point out again and again that in so far as the mental education, education toward energy was concerned and nothing else. document. Look at Page 7 of Lutze's Training Directive for 1939. You will see that Page 7 deals with the first training period, from November '38 until the beginning of February '39, and at the bottom part of the page you will see, set out in certain sequence, the items on which particular attention is laid: Marching, drill, shooting, field training, and last of all, sport. Can you see that?
Q Now turn to page 3 -- I'm sorry, Page 10 -- Page 9 first. Turn on to page 9, which gives you a similar thing for the second training period., from February to April, 1939. In the middle of the page you will see, underlined: Drill, firing training, and last of all, sport. Do you see that?
A I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor, what you are referring to right now. I have it now. training period, which is May to June '39. On Page 10 you will see the same thin Drill, musketry, field training, and last of all, sport. Isn't it perfectly clear that sport was very much an excuse and a means to an end?
MR BARRINGTON: My Lord, I am not proposing to ask any more questions of this witness, as the general topics will be dealt with in the cross examination of the witness Juettner.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 August 1946, at 1000 hours.)