how would you look at that? strange to the police, and quite foreign to the police, and which did not originate from the acts of the police and which were not necessary from the police point of view. But, if the police received such orders from the head of the State, or in the name of the head of the State, them of course, they were considered as valid police laws and such individuals had to take it upon themselves that it was an obligation to carry out a decree.
Q. Did you wish to justify these measures when you -
THE PRESIDENT: It is five o'clock now, Can you tell the Tribunal how long you think you are going to be with this witness?
DR. MERKEL: I have just two more questions. Perhaps just a few more minutes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. Did you wish to justify this opinion and this attitude when you said in your book that it was not a question of law but a question of fate, when the government was setting up the law?
A. No. In that passage in my book I meant to give a political warning to the State leadership, which was particularly to this effect: That his tremendous amount of power to set law arbitrarily -- for at that time we could not look forward to an International Military Tribunal -- that any such tremendous power would have to tempt fate, and that anyone transgressing would be punished by fate; and I am sorry to say that I was quite right in my warning.
Q. But if the members of the Gestapo recognized the decree which they receive to be criminal, what would you think about their actions then?
A. In that case I have to state that they acted in an express state of emergency, for during the war the entire police system was under the military penal code and any official who refused to carry out a decree or order would have been sentenced to death in a court martial.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1 August 1946, at 1000 hours.)
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for SD): Mr. President, may I be permitted to put three questions to the witness Best ?
THE PRESIDENT: What special reason is there why you want to put questions to him ?
DR. GAWLIK: I wanted to put these questions to Dr. Spengler, a witness who has been granted me but who has not arrived and because I cannot reach this other witness I would like to put the questions to Dr. Best instead.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in view of that special reason we will permit you to put the questions but it is not to be regarded as a general rule.
DR. KARL RUDOLF WERNER BEST -- Resumed BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. I should like to confront you with a copy of a decree of the 11 November 1938. This is document PS 1638 and I should like to refer to page 4, dealing with the Gestapo and SD. In this decree it says :
"The security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS and the information Service for the Party and State, particularly for the support of the Security Police, has to fulfill important tasks." of this decree ?
A. Yes.
Q. Does this decree represent the actual relationship between the Security Police and the SD ? Does it represent that relationship correctly ?
A. In those years there were experiments constantly going on with the SD so that the setting up of tasks as to the SD changed frequently. At that time, when the decree mentioned was issued, the general chief of the Security Police and the SD, Heydrich, was interested in having the SD have insight into the state offices and agencies.
In order to fulfill and realize that aim and to give reasons for it and to justify it, the formulation of this decree was chosen. In fact and in truth the setting up of tasks to be put to the SD, whose, model was to be the large foreign services, and especially the English intelligence service, developped in such a way that the SD was not to be an auxiliary or branch of the police but rather a purely political information organ of the state leadership, for the exact control of its political ramifications.
DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution want to cross examine? BY LT. COMDR. HARRIS:
Q. Dr. Best, do you realize that you are one of the two witnesses who have been called, out of possibly hundreds, to represent the Gestapo before this Tribunal?
A. Yes.
Q. And you realize that your credibility is very important, do you not?
A. Yes.
Q. You understand as a jurist of long standing the significance of the oath that you have taken?
A. Yes.
Q. You stated yesterday, I believe, that your publication, the "German Police", was a purely private book and had no official status? Is that correct ?
A. I said that we were concerned with the purely personal private work which was carried out without any contact with my superiors and without the knowledge of my superiors, and it originated in that way. My superiors -- at that time Heydrich and Himmler -- only knew of this work when the completed work was submitted to them.
Q. The question is whether this book of yours was or was not an official publication in any respect. Was it or was it not?
A. No, it was not an official publication.
Q. I ask that the witness be shown the Ministerial Blatt of 1941, page 119. a circular of the Reich Ministry of the Interior referring to your book and you will note that it states that "the book is for offices and officials of police, state, Party, and municipal administrations. This book represents a reference work which can also serve as, an award for worth officials. It is recommended that this book be avquired especially also by the libraries", and then the distribution is to various supreme Reich authorities.
You see that there, do you not, Dr. Best?
A. Yes, indeed, and I can say the following in that connection: This recommendation was some time after the appearance of the book. The recommendation was published without my having prior knowledge of that fact, and this recommendation is not to be evaluated any differently from any other recommendation of other books which had already appeared and which subsequently would be recognized as good and usable books, but I should like to emphasize again that before the publication of this book, I had not talked with the agency who later published this recommendation nor with my superiors. I had not talked with either of these parties in any way beforehand.
Q. Now I want to invite your attention to your book, D.r Best, and particularly to page 86 of it. the pre-existing political police agencies, and you will find that you say in your book as follows: I am now quoting.
"In order to build up an independent and powerful political police force, the might of which had not hitherto existed in Germany, regular officials of the former police force, on the one hand, and members of the SS, on the other hand, were brought in. With the uncompromising fighting spirit of the SS the new organization took up the struggle against enemies of the poeple and the state for the safeguarding of the National Socialist leadership and order". not, Dr. Best?
A. To that I should like to say that the part which was taken into the organization was very small, and I said yesterday that a certain number of employees were taken in, and then later from the candidates who applied for the regular career of the Secret State Police further members of the SS were added, so that the picture given in my book is completely correct, but the ratio in figures is not mentioned, and I can say again today that the number of the former officials -- those that were taken over from the pre-existing system such as the Protective Police, and candidates -- that was the larger number as compared to the number taken in from the SS.
Q. All right. You said yesterday that you opposed the use of torture by the Gestapo in connection with interrogations and that you called Heydrich to account about that matter, did you not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you call Heydrich to account, as your superior?
A. Yes
Q. But you did not prohibit Heydrich from continuing his practice of using torture in interrogations, did you?
A. I was not in a position to prevent my superiors from taking and carrying out measures and decrees which he had recommended, and in addition to that, I was in no way affected with the execution in the Secret State Police, for I was an administrative Official and, consequently, was not competent if Heydrich demanded measures like that or approved of them. I can only say that in the small branch of the Counter-Intelligence which I headed as a Commissioner for a short period of time, I prevented the use of this method.
Q. I want to pass briefly to your experiences in Denmark, Dr. Best, and by way of preliminary I wish to refresh your recollection as to the testimony which you gave before the commission on the eighth day of July 1946. This appears on page 2412 of the English transcript:
"Question: Have you met Naujocks?
"Answer: Naujocks was in Copenhagen once.
"Question: And what was his task in Denmark?
"Answer: He did not give me any details. I only know that he asked me to provide a connection for him with the Research Office in Copenhagen.
Question: Anyway, you have no idea why Naujocks was in Copenhagen, do you?
Answer: I imagine that he was in Denmark on matters pertaining to intelligence service duties.
"Question: And if he were to state and even to testify that he discussed the matter with you, you would say it was only a lie?
"Answer: I would say that I could not recall and that in my memory he is retained as an intelligence service man." Commission, did you not, Dr. Best?
A. Yes
Q. And when you gave thos answers you knew that you were telling a deliberate falsehood under oath, did you not, Dr. Best?
A. In the meantime --
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question. Do you or do you not know whether you were telling the truth then?
A. My statement was not correct. In the meantime I had seen the transcript of Naujocks, and then I was able to recollect exactly that he in a general way had told me about his mission. Even today I do not recall details, however.
Q. Well, no, just so that you will remember that interrogation and that you had with Dr. Kalki of the Danish Delegation two days later on 10 July 1946, I am going to ask that you be shown the written statement which you corrected in your own hadnwriting and signed with your own signature. Now, I invite your attention to the paragraph, Dr. Best, in which you state as follows:
"Now that I know that Naujocks has testified as to his connection with If I did not testify about this earlier, it was because I did not know whether Naujocks had been captured and had confessed regarding those things. It was contrary to my feelings to drag him into this thing before the facts were know to me."
You gave that statement, did you not, Dr. Best, and that is your signature on there?
A. Yes.
Q Now, Dr. Best, you knew very well when Naujocks came to you in January of 1944 that there was planned to be carried out by the Gestapo terroristic measures against the people of Denmark, because you attended the conference at Hitler's headquarters on 30 December, 1943, at which that plan was worked out, didn't you? Hancke, the higher SS and police leader for Denmark, General von Hannecken, the military governor for Denmark, Hitler, Himmler, the defendant Kaltenbrunner, the defendant Keitel, the defendant Jodl, and Schmundt. You reported those names in your own diary, didn't you? counteract murder and sabotage against German interests in Denmark the Gestapo was to go up to Denmark and to carry out ruthless murders and to blow up homes and buildings as a countermeasure, don't you? Hitler gave commands against contradiction which I and Hancke made against these plans.
Q Yes. Hitler gave the order to Himmler, who gave it to Kaltenbrunner, who gave it to Mueller, who sent the Gestapo into action, and you know that those murders and that this wilful destruction of property was carried out in Denmark as a result thereof, don't you? about some of them. For example, you remember when these thugs blew up a streetcar in Odenne, killing and injuring the passengers in it, don't you? protested against the use of this method, in that I made -
THE PRESIDENT: You haven't answered the question. The question was, did you know that the streetcar had been blown up.
THE WITNESS: I do not recall the individual cases, and therefore I do not recall for what special reason I made my protest. But I do know that I protested in many, many cases.
BY LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS:
Q Now, Dr. Best, I know that you have a very short memory, but I would have thought that you could have remembered from the events that you recited on 10 July 1946. If you will look at your statement there that you gave to Dr. Kalki, you will find the following: "I used on such an occasion the blowing up of a streetcar in Odenne, for instance." Don't you see that there, Dr. Best? The statement that you gave on the 10th of -
A Where is that? Where do I find that, please?
A Wait just a minute. That is a wrong translation. I said the blowing up of a street train in a street. That meant that on the street along this street, several houses were blown up. It wasn't a car, but rather a train of houses, a group of houses.
Q Now, Dr. Best, you also remember the murder of four doctors in Odenne, which you protested because those doctors had been pointed out to you by National Socialist circles as being German sympathizers, don't you?
A Yes, and apart from that, that was not the only reason. I called attention to the increased senselessness of these measures, for I had determined that some of these physicians were friendly to Germany. sympathizers in Denmark, wasn't it? There were so few. Now, to whom did you make your protests against this murderous activity of the Gestapo? ministry superior to me.
Q Your protests went to the defendant Ribbentrop, didn't they?
THE PRESIDENT: Commander Harris, have we reference to any document which records the meeting of 30 December 1943?
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: Yes, sir. This is in evidence through the official government report of the Danish delegation, exhibit RF901.
THE PRESIDENT: RF921?
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: 901, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
BY LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS:
Q Now yesterday, Dr. Best, you testified that you learned that the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD in Denmark was opposed to the Kugel Erlass, didn't you? Kugel Erlass?
A I was told that by the head of the executive, Dr. Hoffmann.
Q Dr. Hoffmann. He was the head of the Gestapo in Denmark, wasn't he?
Q And when did Dr. Hoffmann tell you that? with Dr. Hoffmann I was reminded of these facts, or whether the individual measures which were turned down at that time were reported to no at the time. It may be that this is a new piece of information for me, which confirms to me that this decree never was put into effect. No case of this land ever occurred.
Q Now, Dr. Best, you just got through saying in your last answer that Dr. Hoffmann told you that the Gestapo was opposed to the Kugel Erlass in Denmark and that he told you that in Denmark. Now, is that true or isn't it true?
A I did not say when and where I learned of it. I said only that the decree was not applied, not put into effect, and on the own initiative of the police, at that. I did not say when and where I was told this.
Q What was the Kugel Erlass? measures, I believe, dealing with prisoners of war who had escaped. the Commission, you didn't say anything about having had a conversation with Dr. Hoffmann about it, did you? my time of office I had known the Kugel Erlass. I did not see this at that time.
I did not see the decree at that time. I believe I have mentioned this already. I read it only here.
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: If the Tribunal please, I have two documents which I would like to offer into evidence at this time. These documents have come to our attention and have been made available only in the last two days. Consequently, it has been impossible for us to present them to anyone speaking for the Gestapo before the Commission, and I think that this witness can assist in identifying some of the names. I would line to ask the permission of the Tribunal merely to show these documents to the witness. They are quite long, and I will then try to summarize as briefly as possible and develop what can be developed out of them in the shortest possible time, perhaps fifteen minutes for both documents here.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.
LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: Then at this time I offer into evidence R178, which becomes USA 910, and I ask that the document be shown to the witness. exploitation team and sent to the Prosecution from the Air Documents Research Center in London. It contains correspondence concerning a complaint about a certain Major Meinel against the Gestapo officers in Munich, Regensburg, Nuernberg, and Fuerth over the screening out and murdering of Russian prisoners of war. I ask that the witness turn to Document F, which is page 7 of the English translation. BY LT. COMMANDER WHITNEY HARRIS: in Munich, in which it lists 18 labor camps screened by the Gestapo, showing a total of 3,088 Soviet prisoners of war screened, of which 410 are screened out as intolerable. You will note, following Page 8 of the English translation, that the 410 Russians sorted out belong to the following categories: officials and officers, Jews, members of intelligentsia, fanatical Communists, agitators and others, runaways, incurably sick. You will note on Page 9 of the English translation that of the 410 Russians who were sorted out, 301 had been executed at the concentration camp at Dachau at the date of this report.
On Page 10 of the English translation following, Witness, you will find the following: namely, that these 410 Russians screened out at Munich represent a percentage of 13 per cent, whereas the Gestapo offices at Nuernberg Fuerth, and Regensberg screened out an average of 15 to 17 per cent. This report, which is signed by Schuermer, states, right at that same place, "I wish to refute most emphatically the complaints of the high command of the armed forces that the screening of the Russians had been carried out in a superficial manner." Now, witness, do you know Schuermer?
Q. All right. Then I want you to turn to Document G. This is a report from the Gestapo office in Munich complaining about the attitude of Major Meinel; and on page 13 of the English translation, you will find a statement that Meinel was thought to have complained to the High Command of the armed forces that the Russians had been superficially screened out.
the SD in which Meinel was reproached for having shown, to some extent, aversion against the National Socialist creed. For example, he mentioned God but not the Fuehrer in an order of the day.
THE PRESIDENT: Where does that come ?
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: Sir, you will find that on Page 13 of the English translation, in the middle of the page. BY LT. COMDR HARRIS: be said -- one who mentions God before Hitler.
A I do not know which question you want me to answer. As far as this whole pattern is concerned, I should like to emphasize that at the end of May 1940, I left my position in the Reich Ministry of the Interior in the Security Police Division, and therefore I had no knowledge of the sort of things which transpired in the year 1941.
Q Then turn to Document G, Page 15 of the English translation. You will find this sentence:
"Experience, however, has shown that the Russian can be compelled to work only by the utmost severity and by the use of corporal punishment."
Now, pass on to Document H, Dr. Best. There appares on Page 17 of the English translation this statement:
"Furthermore, I pointed out to Major Meinel that the work of the Gestapo employment detachments was done with the consent of the High Command of the Armed Forces, and according to rules which had been drafted in collaboration with the High Command, Department of Prisoners of War."
Now, this document is signed by Schimmel. Was Schimmel known to you?
A Schimmel? I cannot find the name Schimmel, but I do recall that there was a Regierungsrat by that name, I believe, in the Secret Police.
Q Passto Document J, then, Page 21 of the English Translation. At the end of that, you will find that Meinel, ingiving his reply to the accusations made against him, stated:
"When I mentioned that it weighed heavily on the officers' conscience to hand over the prisoners, Regierungsrat Schimmel replied that the hearts of some of the SS men who were charged with executing prisoners were all but breaking." that the Reich Commissioner for Defense was informed about these murders, and approved of them. This was for Defense Area VII. Do you know who the Reich Commissioner for Defense was in Defense Area VII who approved these murders?
A A Reich Commissioner? You mean the Reich Defense Commissioner?
Q Yes, the Reich Defense Commissioner. That is what I said. for that time I was away from the Reich -
Q All right. Let us go on. There are many other cases of the screening of Soviet prisoners of war by the Gestapo for execution; that is, by local Gestapo offices within Germany proper. And I do not wish to take up further time with that. But I wish that you would turn to Document T, witness, because I want to get evidence of the result of this conflict with Major Meinel. Document T is a teletype from the Gestapo office in Berlin, and it states:
"The prisoners of war who have been screened out"-
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that?
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: Page 37, sir. BY LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS:
Q "The prisoners of war who have been screened out will be transferred to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp as the High Command has decided in conference today. Will you please inform the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer today about this and also that Meinel is getting a different assignment."
Now, this teletype emanated from the RSHA office as IV A. That was the Gestapo, was it not, Dr. Best? Now you know who Panzinger, was, do you not?
A Yes. He was the deputy of Mueller.
Q Yes. And he was the head of this Department IV A, which was charged with the handling of opponents and sabotage, assassinations, protective custody, and matters of that sort, was henot?
A He was the head of the Department IV A. Just what was dealt with in this department I cannot recall.
LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS: That appears in Document L-219, for the Tribunal's information, which is already in evidence.
Now, I wish to offer the other documents. There are five documents here which are in a group, sir, and I will offer them in order:
4050-PS becomes USA 911; 4049-PS becomes USA 912; 4052 PS becomesUSA 913; 4048 PS becomes USA 914; 4051 PS becomes USA 915. and we have not yet been able to obtain the originals. They sent to us only the photostatic copies. We have requested the originals, and they will be here, we are assured, in a matter of days. As soon as they come, with the permission of the Tribunal and the approval of counsel, we will substitute the originals for these photostatic copies. BY LIEUTENANT COMMANDER HARRIS:
Q Now, Dr. Best, turning to Document4050 PS first, you will see that this refers to the same SS obersturmbannfuehrer Panzinger. This is apparently a foreign office communication in which it says that Panzinger reports that various changes have been made in the preparation for the matter discussed, and that he has promisedus a plan for the execution of our proposed actions. will find just what that plan was. You will see there that the plan was to transfer 75 French generals from Koenigstein, in the course of which one General by the name of DeBossse was to have a misfortune -- namely, his car was to break down -- in order to separate him from the others.
This was to provide the opportunity to have the general shot in the back while attempting to escape. completing this murder, including this interesting statement, that a decision has as yet to be reached whether or not the burial of the dead man should be carried out with military honors; and it goes on to say that the question will be looked into once more by the SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Shouldn't you read the last paragraph on Page 2?
LT. CMDR. HARRIS: Yes, sir, I will read that.
"Protecting power investigations: It will be assured through the collection of the persons concerned in the preparation of all documentary evidence that in the event the protecting power is desirous of an investigation, the necessary documents are available for dismissal of a complaint." BY LT. CMDR. HARRIS: find again the reference to this infamous SS Oberstrumbannfuehrer Panzinger. You see, witness, Panzinger had been promoted by this time. He states that the preparations with respect to the French generals had reached the stage where a report concerning the proposed procedure would be submitted to the Reichsfuehrer SS during the next few days. And you will find that he again explains this method of murder, and that he said that they will carry it out by one of two methods, either by shooting during escape, or, secondly, through poisoning by carbon monoxide gas. shows that it was prepared for presentation to the Reich Foreign Minister, Mr. Ribbentrop.
Now, the next document is particularly an interesting one. It is document 4048 PS. This document is dated December 30, 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Was Ambassador Ritter the ambassador in Paris?
BY LT. COMDR. HARRIS:
Q Witness, was Ambassador Ritter the ambassador in Paris?
A I do not rememberexactly. That must have taken place some time before I knew how the diplomatic posts were filled.
THE PRESIDENT: It does not matter.
LT. COMDR. HARRIS: I am informed, sir, that he was a liaison officer between the Foreign Office and the army. I am not sure of that, however.
Well, passing to Document 4049-PS, here is where the whole 1 Aug M LJG 5-1 plan is laid out in summary form, and I would like to read this briefly.
This is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS, and it says:
"The discussions about the matter in question with the Chief of Prisoner of War Matters and the Foreign Office have taken place as ordered and have led to the following proposals: 1. In the course of a transfer of five persons in three cars with army identifications, the escape incident occurs when the last car has a flat tire, or 2. Carbon dioxide is released by the driver into the closed back of the car. The apparatus can be installed with the simples means and can be removed again immediately. After considerable difficulties a suitable vehicle has now became available. 3. Other possibilities, such as poisoning of food or drink have been considered but have been discarded again as too unsafe. accordance with plans, such as report, abduction, documentation, and burial, have been made. and will appear in army uniform and with pay books delivered to them. lished with Geheimrat Wagner of the Foreign Office. Wagner reports that the Reich Foreign Minister expects to speak with the Reichsfuehrer about this matter. must be coordinated in every respect. man in question has been mentioned in the course of various long distance calls between Fuehrer Headquarters and the Chief of PW Matters; therefore, the Chief of PW Matters now proposes the use of another man with the same qualifications. I agree with this and propose that the choice be left to the Chief of Prisoners of War Matters."
BY LT. COMMANDER HARRIS:
1 Aug LJG M 5-2
Q Now, by whom is this letter signed, Dr. Best?
A It states that it is signed Dr. Kaltenbrunner.
Q Signed Dr. Kaltenbrunner. Now, we will pass to the last document, 4051-PS. This is a report on a telephone conversation which carries us to January 12, 1945, and it says -repeats that: "A French prisoner of war General is going to die an unnatural death by being shot in flight or by poisoning. Subsequent matters, such as reports, post mortem examination, documentation, and burial have been taken care of as planned." It states that: "The Reich Foreign Minister's instruction states that 'the matter is to be discussed with Ambassador Albrecht in order to determine exactly what legal rights the protective power could claim in this matter in order to make our plans accordingly.'" Now, who is Ambassador Albrecht?
Foreign Office.
Q Now, did you know, Dr. Best, that General Mesne' was Killed on this read at about this time? was active in Denmark and heard nothing about matters of this kind.
LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: That concludes my cross examination, if the Tribunal please. However, I have two documents which the French delegation ask be submitted. These are both documents signed by or on behalf of this defendant, Dr. Best, and with your permission, I will offer then in evidence new on behalf of the French delegation.
The first is document F-967. This relates to the deporting of Jews and Communists from France, and states that they have to hold up these deportations for a while because of lack of transportation. BY LT. COMMANDER HARRIS: