Q. How was the cooperation of the SS? Were they represented in the Kresileitung ?
A. I permitted the SA to take part in our conferences. The local leaders came occasionally and listened to what we were discussing, in general.
Q. Could you give orders to the SA ?
A. I could not give any orders to the SA. I could only ask for its aid through its superior officers for any propaganda measures, labor measures,and so forth.
Q. What cooperation was there with the General SS ? Was it represented in the Kreisleitung ?
A. We had no SS fuehrer. The SS did nothing on its own initiative to be represented in the Kreisleitung.
Q. Didyou have any insight into the measures which the SS took with regard to protective custody and concentration camps ?
A. No, I had no insight into that.
Q. Did you ever attempt to obtain such insight ?
A. Yes. It was about 1935, but I did not succeed in obtaining this insight. A visit to a concentration camp, which I did not want to visit because I expected any atrocities but because it was newto me, was refused.
Q. And what reason was given ?
A. I was to get permission from the Reichsicherhietshauptamt. I told the Gauleitung that because I was not permitted to contact the Reichsicherheitshauptamt personnally. The Gauleitung then advised against it because that would be very complicated.
Q You do not know whether the Reichsicherheitshauptamt was com-
petent ? to the lynching of fliers who had made emergency landings?
A We had many emergency landings. I never is sued any instructions; I never needed to issue any instructions regarding them. which deal with this question? Did you not learn of these as Kreisleiter?
A I did not receive the Bormann letter. On the other hand, on the radio I heard the article of the Reich Propaganda Minister.
Q And then what happened in your Kreis? Was any action taken according to what Goebbels said on the radio? the men who landed there were all treated very well. That lies in the character of the whole population. prisoners of war or foreign workers, or did you permit such mistreatment?
A I could not issue instructions for prisoners of war. That was the department of the Wehrmacht. But I saw to it that foreign workers were well treated. And if a beating or some such incident occurred, then I immediately asked for the workers to be removed by the competent agency. did not reach you?
A No. On the contrary, I was asked to see to it that they were well treated. of political crisis an exception, or was that the attitude outside your Kreis, as far as you can judge? Was it generally true? even during the war. And while I was in the Fallingbosten Camp, when I helped to obtain affidavits, I reached the final conviction that what I am telling you here was generally true for those thousands.
Q You inspected and collected the affidavits?
Q Did you not reject unfavorable ones?
A No, I never did that. There were no unfavorable ones. to the church question, the Jewish question?
A We never knew of the extent of these matters; and what I did learn was not very much. It did happen that when another man had not forgotten some experience from the struggle period, and he misunderstood instructions, he performed sme act out of the ordinary, in a hot-headed manner. But in general we did not experience these incidents, and knew nothing about them.
Q Then none came to your knowledge? allow you admission to the concentration camps cause any misgivings? Certainly there were rumors about these concentration camps? to conceal crimes, but in view of the character of the SS, I assumed that it was a form of self-clarification, and they thought, "This is our business and not the business of the political leaders."
Q Did you approve the actual practice of the Party on all points? with my own Gauleiters.
Q. Did you have any serious objections ?
A. No, there were no serious objections, but after this Jewish matter in November, I had to point out what effect they would have for these abroad. I had heard that men in high positions did not approve of that at all. That gave me courage to say something myself.
Q. Did you not consider whether you should continue in your office or whether you should resign ?
A. If I had resigned I would not have improved anything. The situation world have became worse for after I had been in the Kreis for 20 years my successor would not have known my men as well, and asit was I could recogni mistakes and I could compensate for them.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all you want to ask ?
DR. SERVATIUS: One or two more questions in the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will adjourn. (The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 31 July 1946.)
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Do you consider the Blockleiter and the Zellenleiter as "Hoheitstraeger", dignitaries?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if in the organization book of the Party, the Blockleiter and the Zellenleiter are designated as dignitaries?
A. I read that but I was never able to follow it because the organization book went on assumptions which were not given. It did not exist in fact.
Q. What do you understand under the term dignitary?
A. The dignitary is the first representative of the movement within his sphere. He is entitled to give orders to his subordinate political leaders and to party members. Furthermore, his official and private conduct is to be adjusted at alll times so that non-party members and State agencies will respect him and will listen to him without legal obligations to do so.
Q. You spoke of the rights which the political leaders have. Do these Blockleiters and Zellenleiters also have these rights?
A. They didn't have them and they didn't want them.
Q. Did the Blockleiters and Zellenleiters have the power to give orders to the SA and the SS?
A. No.
Q. Then the Blockleiters and the Zellenleiters were only assistants to the Ortsgruppenleiter and had no powers of their own?
A. The Blockleiters and the Zellenleiters were the non-commissioned corps of the Ortsgruppenleiter.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no more questions to put to this witness.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: I have some certain new documents, two or three pages, in connection with other matters. If the Tribunal wishes it I could present these documents quickly in the way the Tribunal indicated to Sir David or I could put it in the form of cross-examination. Whatever the Tribunal thinks most convenient.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Jones, if it does not interfere with your case or cross-examination, perhaps it would be better to put the documents in, simply indicating the page or subject.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: That will be done.
THE PRESIDENT: If there is anything particular with this witness you may have.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: The first matter with which I was intending to deal is the action taken by the Leadership Corps in connection with elections, and I would refer the Tribunal to document D-43 which will become GB-540 document. I understand the Tribunal has copies of that document. That is a letter from the Kreis Organising Manager, dated 26 May 1936 and addressed to Kreisleiters and Organisationleiters. It is from the NSDAP Bremen District, and translated from the German. It refers to the Reichstag elections on 29 March 1936 and stated that in pursuance of an inquiry from the Reich Minister of the Interior, party member Dr. Frick, a report is to be made on any civil servants who did not record their votes on the 29th of March 1936. As far as such cases are know within your Ortsgruppe or your Stutzpunkt, you will report these names by the 3rd of June at the latest, of 1936. The expression, "Stutzpunkt section", this is a smaller organization than an Ortspruppe and was eventually abolished but in 1936 still existed.
"You will report them to me by name at the latest by the 3rd of June of this year. The information will have to be correct under all circumstances."
"This circular has to be destroyed immediately after this matter is settled." that is a document in connection with theplebiscite of 1938. The first point I make on that is that it shows that the activity referre to in the letter I have just mentioned was not an isolated case. cooperation between the SEcurity police and the political leaders. from the Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS at Erfurt, which is in Thuringia, the Gau of which Sauckel was Gauleiter. It is a "top secret", strictly confidential", addressed to all heads of sections and to Stuetzpunkleiters.
"Stuetzpunkleiters are to report not later than 1800 hours on the 7 April, 1938, all persons in their district about whom it is safe to assume (with 100% probability) that they will vote 'no' at the impending plebiscite. Do not forget the International Jehovah witnesses.
"Heads of Sections are to support the Stuetzpunkleiters locally as mcuh as possible in this matter.
"This matter is also to be carried out in closest collaboration with the Ortsgruppenleiters of the Party. The Ortsgruppenleiters will be instructed by the Aussenstellenleiter (head of the branch office) personally after 1800 hours on the 5th of April, 1938."
I think I can omit the next paragraph and then I go on:
"The tremendous responsibility which the Stuetzpunkleiters have, in particular with regard to this report, is stressed once more. The Stuetzpunkleiters must clearly understand the potential consequences for the persons contained in their report. It must be particularly strongly considered whether the persons who impart such information to the Stuetzpunkleiters and from the Stuetzpunkleiters make their inquiries are not motivated by personal reasons; even political leaders are not excepted from this.
"The confidential nature of this order is again emphasized.
"The order is to be minutely memorized and there after destroyed immediate ly. Every Stuetzpunkleiter is personally responsible to me for the complete destruction of this order." documents. On page 2 there are set out certain sections of the population about whom inquiries have got to be made and who have to be particularly watched. It will be seen in the first paragraph:
"Increased attention is to be devoted to participation in and the results of the plebiscite on 10 April, 1938, particularly in small towns and villages. It must, above all, be ascertained whether the opponents are to be sought in Marxist idealogical or opposition circles."
Then under the heading "Catholicism", I draw the attention of the Tribunal to number 2.
"Was any attitude expressed during church services and similar meetings."
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will, if it is convenient to the officers of the court, not have any further recess before one o'clock.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: My Lord, I had reached paragraph number two under "Catholicism" on the second pare of Document D-897. "Was any attitude expressed during church services and similar meetings." Perhaps I might be allowed to ask one question of the witness upon that. BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES:
Q. Withess, when the Ortsgruppenleiter is charges with making the report on these matters, would it be the Block end Zellenleiters that he would ask for information as to what was expressed in the various church services throughout his Ortsgruppe?
A. No.
Q. Who would it be, if it would not be the Zellenleiters?
A. For confidential information, if it had been asked, for, the Ortsgruppenleiter would have obtained for himself.
Q. The Ortsgruppenleiter would not be able to attend every church servic in hip Ortsgruppe himself. Do you think that is physically possible for any Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. No, they would not have been able to do that, but for such information they would always have had special men from whom they would have obtained advice and information.
Q. Those special men who provided them with advice and information are the Zellen and Blockleiters, are they not?
A. No, they were not.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: Very well. Well, we will leave that. The next heading is "Protestantism". I again draw attention to Paragraph 2 under that heading, "Was any attitude expressed about the Ahschluss or the Plebiscite during services?" And the next paragraph, "What comment did the Church press make?" And again the next paragraph, "Were the bolls of all religious communities rung on the evening of the 9th following the Fuehrer's speech in Vienna?"
BY LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES:
Q. witness, would it be the Block and Zellenleiters who would report whether the church bells were rung on that evening in their districts?
A. They would have been able to say that, for it they would have been rung, the Block and Zellenleiters would have heard them.
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: I turn to the next page of the document, the next to the ultimate paragraph: "It is suggested that the election officials are contacted in a suitable manner where necessary. The exertion of any kind of pressure must, however, be desisted from." report from the branch office of the Security Service of Weissensee dated the 25th of April, and we begin to see how the instructions regarding the election were carried out.
"Prior to the election, Party Member Paul Fritsche completed a register of all persons suspected of voting 'No', On the election day every person included on this list received from a specially selected official a voting paper which was marked with a number imprinted by means of a colorless typewriter." Then it describes how the procedure worked.
The next page, approached from the middle of the first 31 July M LJG 5-1 paragraph:
"The election official ... did not throw the envelope into the voting box Immediately, but tried to push it under the paper and which is situated on the voting box to cover the slit so as to be able to open the evelope later at an opportune moment." another branch of the Security Service:
"To all Orgsgruppenleiters of the N.S.D.A.P. of the Kreis of Erfurt - Waissensee:
"On their appearance in your Ortsgruppen area for the purpose of carrying out their voting duty, the under-mentioned persons are to be specially watched and the Kreisleitung of Erfurt (Election Office SD) is to be notified immediately."
There are many names; and lastly:
"By order of the Kreisleiter, this matter is to be strictly confidential.
On the next page there is another report about a Jehova's Witness, Robert Siering, and his wife, "who appeared in a voting center on Sunday morning and deposited their vote after both had been advised of their duty to vote by the police in Griefstedt and had been threatened with the removal of their child in case on non-participation. D-902, which will become GB 542. On the first page of that exhibit we have a report sent to the Erfurt Branch Office of the Security Service, marked confidential. It is not clear who it is signed by. It is dated the 7th of April 1938, and reads as follows:
"After thorough and most careful examination in the area of the Ortsgruppe of Melchendorf and in the closest cooperation with the Ortsgruppenleiter, we have come to the following conclusion:
"The following persons will with 100% probability vote "No" at the forthcoming plebiscite."
31 July M LJG 5-2 "explanations" in the case of each.
"Explanation: 1) Wilhelm Messing (taken into protective custody in 1933 because of illegal activity for the Communist Party....", and so on.
"2) Walter Messing (also taken into protective custody in 1933 for slandering the SA." page. paragraphs on the next page:
"Guenther Hartung, 113 Johannesstrasse, Wallstrasse entrance, must be reported as being an enemy of the State and opposed to the plebiscite.
"Hartung must be described as a morally totally degenerate man and it is necessary to lock the same up in spite of his ago (70 years).
"Amongst other things, he referred to the German troops on their entry into Austria as loafers. Sufficient witnesses as to Hartung are available." with the plebiscite, I draw the attention of the Tribunal to the penultimate paragraphs "The wife of the 100% Jew Rielschowski, who was dragged along just before closing time of the plebiscite, voted "No", as can be proved."
translation, which describes how the votes were screened in another area by a ribbonless typewriter; and then again on Page 9 of the translation, another report:
"The labourer Otto Wiegand... was requested four times to record his vote on the day of the election and finally voted under force."
And the next report on the same page:
31 July M LJG 5-3 "the married woman Frieda Schreiner.
.. did not vote in spite of repeatedly being invited to do so. The above is a fanatic member of the former international association of Jehova's witnesses.
"The husbank, who has the same opinions and who was recently involved in criminal proceedings because of them, recorded his vote. To be sure, this was probably exclusively for fear of renewed arrest. to is on Page 11, whore there is shown an extract from the local newspaper recording the united German vote, which has been obtained by the Security Service with cooperation of the Leadership Corps in the way in which we have seen. would refer the Tribunal o a document which has already been put in, and it will be found on Page 91 of the small document book that Sir David handed to the Tribunal yesterday, Page 91 of that book, Pages 118 and 119 of the German. It is Document R-142, US 481. That, it will be seen, is a report again from the Security Service, but this time in Coblenz. I read the second paragraph:
"The high percentage of "No" votes, as it reads in nearly all cases, in the religious attitude of the population, irrespective of whether they are Catholics or Protestants...." My Lord, that in the original is the " Kreisgeschaeftsfuehrer", who is one of the staff officers of the Kreisleiter -- "the Kreisgeschaeftsfuehrer of the Kreis conclave gave assurance that it was mostly women who voted "No", or invalidly. As became known here, a supervisory control was ordered at several of the...."
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Griffith Jones, this is already in evidence, is it not?
LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: Yes, this is in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think you need go into it.
LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: I am much obliged.
31 July M LJG 5-4 I only wanted to draw the attention of the Tribunal to it. found on Page 55 of that same document book, at pages 55 and then 54, the documents being PS 849, which is US 354, and 848, which is US 353. The two documents together describe how the party -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Griffith Jonas, I do not think you ought to comment on documents which are already in evidence unless they are documents which the witness can throw light upon.
LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: It is a little difficult to make the point which I would have made in cross-examining the witness on these documents if I only confine myself to the now ones without drawing the attention of the Tribunal to other documents which relate to the same matter.
THE PRESIDENT: If they are not now documents and you want to cross-examine the witness about them, you can put them to the witness.
LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: Very well, sir. I will leave that subject now. this witness is the use of euthanasia, or mercy killing, and the part the political locators played in those matters. My Lord, this is a now document, D-906, which becomes GB 543. which are printed on the first page, again, item No. 2, Martin Bormann, the 24th of September, 1940, a letter from the National Socialist German Workers' Party, the Fuehrer's deputy:
"To the Gauleitung Franconia, for the attention of Kreisleiter Zimmermann:
"Your letter of the 13/9/1940 was given to me by Party member Hoffmann. The Commission which was working at Neuendettelsaus, is under the control of Reichsleiter Bouhler, or is acting on his orders.
"The text of the notifications of relatives is being vari-
31 July M LJG 5-5 ously worded, as I was once more assured yesterday; it can, however naturally happen some times that two families living close to each other receive similarly worded letters.
"It is natural that the representatives of Christian ideology speak against the Commission's measures; it must be equally natural that all Party Offices should, as far as necessary, support the work of the Commission."
Then I go back to Number 1 on that page. "Gaustabsamtleiter (Franconia) Sellmer -- "that was another staff officer, "handwritten note 1/10/40.
"Justice. Visit from party member Blankenberg, Berlin. Action begins in the near future. So far hardly any mishaps have occurred. 30,000 dispatched, Further 100,000 to 120,000 are waiting. The circle of those who are initiated is to be kept very small. If necessary the Kreisleiter is to be notified in good time."
Then it goes on, "The Fuehrer gave the order that the decree is ready. At present only clear cases, that is 100 % ones, are being settled. Later an expansion will take place. From now on, notification will be given in a..." it is not clear here in the print. Then at the end of the document, "Kreisleiter Sellmer must be informed." Erlangen dated on November 26, 1940 dealing with the elimination of mental patients.
"On orders from the Ministry of the Interior, signed Schulz or Schultze, a commission consisting among other, of a North German doctor and a number of students, appeared some time ago at the local sanitorium and nursing home. It examined the documents of the patients lodged in the institution". And then it describes how he examined the patients which were to be transferred to another institution on orders from the Reich Defense Commissar and "that a Berlin Transport Company was to carry out the transfer and the head of the institution was to follow the directives of was/ this company, which in possession of the list of names.
In this way 3 transports with a total number of 370 patients were in the meantime transferred to Sonnenstein near Pirna and to the Linz district. A further transport is to leave in January of next year. The head of the institution ..." And then it goes on for a few lines, and starts again, "Strangely enough various relatives received notification after the transportation that their patients had died. In some cases pneumonia and in others an infectious disease were given as the cause of death.
At the same time the relatives were further informed that it had been necessary to cremate the body and that, if they were interested, they could have the clothing of the deceased sent to them. The registry office of Erlangen was also informed by the institution of the various cases of death, and again either pneumonia or an infectious disease were given as the cause of death -- ilnesses which had no connection with the previous medical history, so that it is to be assumed that it is here a case of false statements. The population is terribly disturbed about the transfert of patients, because they connect it with the cases of death which are becoming known in rapid succession. They are speaking partly openly, partly secretly, about an elimination of patients for which there is no legal foundation. In these war times such unrest among the population has a doubly unfavourable effect. Moreover, the events described above give the church and religious circles cause to revive their attitude against National Socialism."
THE PRESIDENT: Under which, of the Article 6 of the Charter, does this come?
LT. COL. GRIFFITH JONES: It comes under "Crimes against Humanity"
THE PRESIDENT: Are they connected with war?
LT COL. GRIFFITH JONES: In respect, yes, because the purpose of this extermination of odl people was to rid the Reich of unproductive element I connot for the moment, give you the exact reference where that heppens. but it does appear among one of the documents. That is a hanwritten addition to the document in the hand writing of the ... I beg your pardon, it's an original extract of the situation abroad from the Kreisleitung of Erlangen.
The next document, My Lord, need no be dealt with at length. The point is that a Kreisleiter is involved and that it was general knowledge that there were mistakes in the notification of deaths, for instance, one family receiving two urns for one patient.
Number 5 on the next page is much the same. I draw the Tribunal's attention to the middle of the last paragraph, toward the end. "The doctor also informed me that it was well know that the Commission consisted of one SS Doctor and several subordinate doctors and that the 'ppatients' were not even examined and that they only pronounced their verdict in accordance with the medical history noted down."
a protest, or rather, an inquiry about the death of a relative. It's from a Mrs. Marie Kehr and I mention that because it also refers to another document PS 1969. No, it's a new document. It will become GB-544, PS-1969. I shall ask you to look at the second page of that document where you have a letter from the Reich Minister of the Interior to the Gaustabsamtsleiter in Nurnberg. He forwards Mrs. Kehr's letter and the importance of that document is at the bottom.
"In Ink. Ortsgruppenleiter Party Member Popp is of the opinion that one can inform Mrs. Kehr she is calm and circumspect." informed. looking at, D-906, page 6 of that document. The Ortsgruppenleiter in Absberg is writing about incidents which occurred on the occasion of the latest removal of mentally defective persons from an institution in that town. He writes to the Kreisleitung and incorporates a report of an incident which took place and I can only emphasize that there was public knowledge of what was happening. Weissenburg, Bavaria, reports about the same distrubances and that goes to the Gau Staff Offcie in Nurnberg. he is writing about the removal of patients from yet another sanitorium in another town, and on the top of the following page the Ortsgruppenleiter is involved. "Ortsgruppenleiter Reuschel is further more of the opinion that he should speak about the removal of the inmates, if possible at the next meeting of members, in order to give the facts and above all to squash the rumors that have arisen that the inmates would very soon be put out of the way, done away with, or poisoned."
Then at the bottom you see another handwritten note. "The organization leadership, that is, the political leaders on the staff of the Hoheitstraeger is to be informed." about. There is one general matter which if the Tribunal will allow me, I wish to ask a few questions about.
BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: witness. In view of the documents that you have seen, did you yourself ever have any knowledge of this so-called mercy killing that was going on? being done away with. Thereup *---*s my duty, I immediately inquired of my Gauleiter and after a short time I received the information that this was not true and that in the future I was not to make such inquiries, which I had to see were senseless.
Q Why did you not have to make such inquiries? Leaders were cooperating in that system of murder?
A No, I never knew that; I never suspected that.
Q Now let me ask you about one other matter. You told the Tribunal yesterday that there was no Corps of Political Leaders, is that right?
Q That is not correct, is it? They were recognized officially as the Corps of Political Leaders, were they not?
A The Corps of Political Lead *---* was spoken of with the intention of teaching one man or another better manners on his appearance in public, and for that reason a reference is made to a corps of officers and students. They were to be an example. There was no official Corps of Political Leaders and there could not be any such corps because the men changed constantly and had to came from all parts of the population. political leader you became a member of that Corps, isn't that the position? appointed one could not become a member of it. Leaders in the official organization book of the NSDAP, are they not?
A I am convinced that you can do that. You have the book. I refer again to my oath and say that I have not had time to read this book carefully because my actual tasks were more important than reading this wishful dream.