A I cannot say for what reason every delegate signed the protocol. But they also signed it in the same circumstances in which I signed it. However, when I read their individual protocols, I see that they also refrained from stating the precise date of the killing of a man whose corpse they had dissected, with the exception, as I have already said, of Professor Miroslavich, who was the only one who asserted that the corpse which he had dissected was that of a man buried for at least three years.
Q Mr. Witness, -any one of these persons who signed the collective protocol.
Q Mr. Witness, you gave two versions, one in the protocol, which we have just discussed, and another here before the Court, Which version is the correct one ?
A I do not understand which second version you mean. Will you please give a complete explanation ? to the personal belongings found and according to your findings, the shooting must have taken place three years ago. Today you testified that the findings were not correct, and between the shooting and the time of your affidavits there could only be a space of perhaps a year and a half. my personal conviction.
Q "Is in accord", or "was in accord" ?
DR. STAHMER : I have no further questions.
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness. BY THE PRESIDENT : this delegation exhumed from the ground in your presence ? the graves which had been already exhumed, and they were taken out of them for it to dissect.
Q Was there anything to show, in your opinion, that the corpses had not been buried in those graves ? were preserved, they were stuck to each other; so that if they had been transferred, I do not believe that this could have been done recently.
This could not have been done immediately before our arrival.
Q You mean, that you think the corpses had been buried in those graves?
after death had come, as I have no data to confirm this but they did not look as if they had just been put there. March or April of for such a short period as that, three years before the examination which you have made? to say, on thestate and condition of the corpses, one cannot--when it is a question of years, it is impossible to determine the precise date with such precision and it is impossible to determine whether they were killed in March or in April; therefore, apparently, this month of March and April were not chosen on the basis of medical data for that would be impossible, but it is based on the testimony of the witnesses and on the documents which were discovered. My Lord, I repeat: But apparently the date of March and April was determined not on the basis of medical data but on the basis of witnesses' testimony or the document which they were discovered. you for your observations and for your corrections and that you madenone. Why was that? I did not make any conclusion, I did not add any conclusion because it was sent to me by the Germans and because in general at that moment, the political situation in our country was such that I could not declare publicly thatthe German version was not a true one. Sofia?
A Yes, only my personal protocol was sent to Sofia. As to the collective protocol, I brought it back myself to Sofia and handed it over to the Minister here. corporated in the whole protocol and signed by all the delegates?
A In my personal protocol, there is only a description of the corpses and of the clothing of the corpses which I dessected.
the corpse and clothing and the degree of decomposition. is more accurate as regards the condition of the corpses--the more so, that they were made out during preparation of dissection and were dictated on the spot to the stenographers.
Q Just listen to the question,please. Is your personal protocol, in the words in which you drew it up, incorporated in the collective protocol in the same words? included in the book which the Germans had together with the general protocol, in the white book.
Q It is there, then, in the report, is it? It is in the white book?
A Yes, quite right. Quite right, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Yes, Colonel Smirnov, do you have another witness?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. I beg you to allow me to call as a witness, Professor of Loyal Medicine Prosorovski.
testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full none, please.
A. Prosorovski, Victor Ilich.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: solemnly promise and swear before the High Tribunal, to say all that I know about this case, and to add and withold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Witness, just before questioning you, I beg you to follow the following order: After my question, please pause in order to allow the interpreters to make the translation, and speak as slowly as possible. I beg you to tell the Tribunal very briefly, and to give the Court some information about your scientific activity, and your past work as a legal doctor.
A. I am a doctor by profession; Professor of Legal Medicine and a Doctor of medical Science. I am the Chief medical Expert of the Ministry of Public Health of the Soviet Union. I am the Director of the Scientific Research Institute for Legal Medicine at the Ministry of Public Health of the USSR; in the main, in the scientific activity, I am President of the medical Legal Commission of the Scientific Medical Council of Ministry of Public Health of the USSR.
Q. What is your past experience as a medical legal expert?
A. I practiced for seventeen years in that sphere.
Q. What was your participation in the investigation of the mass crimes of the Hitlerites against the relish officers in Katyn?
A. The President of the Special Commission for the inves-
tigation and ascertaining of the circumstances of the shootings by the German Fascist aggressors of the Polish officers; in the beginning of January 1644, the Acadmeician Burdenka offered me the position to lead the Medical Legal Experts Commission. Apart from this organizational activity, I participated personally in the exhumations and examination of those corpses.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, perhaps that would be a good time to break off.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 2 July 1946)
THEMARSHAL: May it please the Tribunal, the Defendants Hess, Fritsche, and von Ribbentrop are absent.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: May I continue the examination of this witness, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: burial grounds where the corpses were discovered? Commission, Academician Burdenka, Academician Tolstoi, and other members of this commission, betook themselves to the burial grounds of the Polish officers in the so-called wood of Katyn. This spot is located about fifteen kilometers from the town of Smolensk. At a distance of about 200 meters fromthe Witebsk highroad, these burial grounds were situated on a rather abrupt slope. One of these graves was about sixty meters long and sixty motors wide; the other one, situated a small distance from this first grave, was about seven meters long and six meters wide.
Q How many corpses were exhumed by the Commission you headed? and examined, from various graves and from various layers, all together 925 corpses. were called by you for this work? this Commission. In September and October, 1943, they had exhumed and examined the corpses of the victims of the Germans and -
Q At what spot did they examine the corpses? Among the membersof this Commission were Professor Brosorovski, Professor Smolianinov, the Senior Assistant Dr. Semenovski, Professor of Pathological Anatomy Woropaev, Proffessor of Legal Chemistry Schwaikowa, who was invited for consultations on legal chemical subjects.
With the aid of this Commission, they called also medical legal experts from the military. Among them were Nikolski, Dr. Soubbotine -
Q I doubt whether the Tribunal is interested in all these names. I beg of you to answer the following question: What method of examination was chosen by you? I will explain. Did you investigate the clothes of the corpses? Did you carry out a superficial examination or did you carry out a complete medical dissection of all nine hundred corpses? examination, particularly their clothing. Then an exterior examination was carried out and then they were subjected to a complete medical dissection of all three parts of the body; that is to say, the skull, the bronchia, and the thorax, as well as all the inner organs of these corpses. burial grounds bore traces of medical examination carried out previously? been examined, and even then only partial examination of the skulls; but no other traces of former or previous medical examination could be ascertained, for they were clothed and the overcoats were buttoned, their trousers were also buttoned, as well as the shirts, the belts were strapped, the knots of ties had not been undone, and neither in the area of the headner in the area of the body were there any traces of outs or other traces of medical examination. Therefore, this excludes the possibility of their having been subjected to any medical legal examination.
2 July A LJG 13-1 out by your commission, did you open the skulls? the areas of the skull were examined.
Q Are you acquainted with the expression "pseudo callous"? Institute of Medical-Legal Science. Before that, in the Soviet Union, not one medical legal expert observed any similar phenomena . cases of pseudo callous? these 925 corpses observed line sediments on the skull surfaces. of the skulls.
Was the clothing also examined? Upon the request of the special commission, and in the presence of its members such as Nikolas, Burdenka, and other members of the commission, the medical legal exports examined this clothing, turned out the pockets of the trousers, of the coats, and of the overcoats. As a rule, the pockets were either torn open or ripped open or cut open, and this testified to the fact that they had already been searched. The clothing itself, the overcoats and the jackets and the trousers as well as the shirts, were moist with the corpse acid. This clothing could not be torn asunder, notwithstanding violent effort.
Q Therefore, the tissue of the clothing was solid? spattered with earth. the clothing and did you find any documents in them? some of them remained intact. In those pockets, and also under the lining of the overcoats and of the trousers we discovered, for instance, notes, papers, closed and open letters and postcards.
2 July A LJG 13-2 cigarette paper, cigarette folders, pipes, and so forth, and even valuables were found, such as ingots of gold and gold dollars. beg you to refrain from giving them. I would like you to answer the following question: 1940 and also dated 1941?
A Yes. I myself discovered certain documents, and my colleagues also discovered them. Professor Smolininov discovered on one of the corpses a letter written in Russian, and it was sent by Sophie Zigon, addressed to the Red Cross in Moscow, with the request to communicate to her the address of her husband. The date of this letter was the 12th of September 1940. In addition, on the envelope there was the tamp of a postal office in Warsaw for the month of September 1940, and also the stomp of the Moscow post office, dated the 28th of September 1940.
Another document of the same sort was discovered. It was a postcard addressed from Tarnopol, the post office at Tarnopol, and dated the 13th of November 1940. with the name -- if I am not mistaken -- of Ratkivich, certifying to the receipt of money with the date the 6th of April 1941, and another receipt in his name also referring to a money deposit was dated the 5th of May 1941. of June 1941, with the name of Kuckinski, as well as other documents of the same sort. were any bullets or bullet eases exhumed? I beg you to tell us what was the trade mark of these bullets? Were they Soviet firms or were they foreign firms, and if they were foreign firms, which one, and what was their caliber? brain. In the case of blind firearm wounds, in the tissues of the 2 July A LJG 13-3 brain or in the bone of the skull we discovered bullets which were more or less deformed.
As to the bullet cases, we did indeed discover, during the exhumation, pistol bullet cases of German origin, for on the cases we found the trademark G-o-c-o, Goco.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I will now read an original German document and I beg the permission of the Tribunal to submit a series of documents which have been offered us by cur American colleagues and are submitted as USSR Exhibit 507. It concerns German correspondence on Katyn, and these telegrams are sent by an official of the Government General. connection with the bullets discovered in the mass graves. I quote: The telegram as addressed to the government of the Government General and to the First Administrative Councillor in Krakow. It is marked "Secret".
"Part of the delegation of the Polish Red Cross returned yesterday from Katyn The collaborators of the Polish Red Cross have brought with thorn the bullet cases which were used during the shooting of the victims of Katyn. It appears that those are German, munitions. The caliber is 7.55. They are from the firm Goco. A letter follows."
It is signed "Heinrich". BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: same caliber and did they boar the mark of the same firm? bullet wounds were 7.65 caliber. The cases discovered during the exhumation did indeed boar the trademark of the firm Coco. tissues of the bodies and of the inner organs of the corpses exhumed in the graves of Katyn. were in a good state of preservation. The muscles of the body and of the members had kept their structure.
The muscles of the 2 July A LJG 13-4 heart had also kept their characteristic structure.
The substance of the brain had, in some cases, been subject to certain modification. In most eases, it had kept its structural characteristics quite definitely, especially in the gray and white tissues.
Changes in the inner organs referred mainly to the diminution of size.
The hair from the head could be separated from the skin with little effort.
Q. During the examination of the corpses, to what conclusion did you come as to the date of death and date of their burial?
A. On the basis of the experience I have gained, and that of the other members of the commission -
Q. One moment, witness. I would like you to tell the Tribunal briefly what exactly is that experience, and how many corpses were exhumed personally by you or with your personal intervention on various occasions?
A. In the course of the great national war I had occasion to be medical legal expert during the exhimation and the examination of corpses of the victims shot by the Germans. These executions occurred in the town of Kasnodar and its neighborhood, in the town of Kharkov and its neighborhood, in the town of Smolensk and its neighborhood, in the so-called death camp of Maidanek, Lublin so that in general, and with my personal cooperation, more than five thousand corpses were exhumed and examined.
Q. Therefore, basing yourself on an objective observation to what conclusion did you arriave as to the date of the death and the burial of the victims of Katyn?
A. What I have just said also applies to very many of my colleauges who participated in this work. The entire commission came to the unanimous conclusion that the burial of the Polish officers in the Katyn burial grounds was carried out about two years ago, if you count from January, the month of January 1944, that is to say in the autumn, the fall of 1941.
Q. Does the condition of the corpses give any possibility for you to say that they were buried in 1940, objectively speaking?
A. A comparative medical, scientific examination of the corpses buried in the woods of Katyn, when confronted with the modification and changed which were noticed by us during former exhumations on other occasions, and also material evidence, allowed us to come to the conclusion that the date of the burial could not have happened previous to the autumn of 1941.
Q. Therefore, the year 1940 us excluded?
A. Yes, it is completely excluded.
Q. As far as I understand you, besides Katyn, you were also medical legal expert in the case of other shootings in this district of Smolensk?
A. From the district of Smolensk and its environs and with my personal participation 1,173 corpses, besides those of Katyn were exhimed and examined. They were exhumed from 87 burial grounds.
Q. To what method of camouflaging did the authors of these shootings, the Germans, resort in the case of the other mass graves?
A. In the district of Smolensk, in Dirionivka, the following method was reverted to. This method consisted of the following: and in some cases, young trees were planted as well as brushwood all this with a view to camouglagin. Besides, in the so-called "Pioneer Garden" of the town of Smolensk, the graves were covered by bricks and paths were laid out.
Q. You yourself exhumed more than five thousand corpses in various parts of the Soviet Union. What were the causes of death of the victims in most cases?
A. In most cases the cause of death was a firearm bullet wound in the area of the head, in the nape of the neck.
Q. And the picture of death at Katyn, was this picture similar to that which you noticed in other parts of the Soviet Union?
A. All shootings were carried out according to one single method, namely shot in the nape of the neck at close range. The exit or orifice was usually in the area of the forehead or in the area of the face.
Q. I will read the last paragraph of your account, motioned in the report of the Soviet State Commission.
"C ommission of experts. Answers:
"Notice the complete similarity of the method of shooting of the Polish prisoners of war with that applied to the Soviet prisoners of war and Soviet civilians, which was carried out on a vast scale by the German fascist authorities during the temporarily occupied territories of the USSR and including those which were carried out near the towns of Smolensk, Oral, Kharkov, Kasnodar and Voronish". Do you corroborate this conclusion?
A. Yes, this was a very typical method of shooting of all the victims of German extermination and of peaceful citizens.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to put to this witness, Mr. President. BY DR. STAHMER (Counsel for defendant Goering):
Q. Where is your permanent residence, witness?
A. I was born in Moscow, and live permamnently in Moscow.
Q. How long have you been in the Health Commissariat?
A. I have been working in the institutions for public health and in the present ministry of Public Health since 1931. Before that I was a condiate to the Second Moscow University for Medicine.
Q. In this commission were there foreign scientists?
A. In this commission there were no foreign medical legal experts, but the execution of the examination and exhumation of these corpses was accessible to anybody who wished to look, and also foreign journalists, I believe twelve in number, came to the burial grounds, and I myself demonstrated to them the corpses at the burial grounds, the clothing and so on, as they were very interested to see this.
Q. Were representatives of foreign science present?
A. Again I repeat that no foreign experts were called besides Soviet ones.
Q. Can you give the names of the members of the press?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, he was giving a long list of names before and he was stopped by his Counsel.
Why do you shake your head?
DR. STAHMER: I did not understand that, Mr. President. I did not understand that he was giving a list of the names. He gave a list of names of the members of the Commission. My question is this: The witness said that members of the foreign press were present there and that the results of the investigation were presented to them. I am now asking for the names of these members of the foreign press.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, go on. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Will you please give me the names of the members of the press, or at least some names of those who were present and to whom you presented the results of theexamination?
A. Unhappily I can not give those names now here, but I believe that if if is necessary. I would be able to find their names -- the names of all these foreign correspondents who were present at the exhumation of the corpses.
Q. The statement about the number of corpses exhumed and examined by you seemed to vary a little, according to my notes, but I may have misunderstood. Once you mentioned 5,000 and one 925. Which figure is the correct one?
A. You did not quite hear. I said that 925 corpses had been exhumed in the Katyn Forest, but in general I and in my presence in many towns of the Soviet Union after the liberation of the territories from the Germans, exhumed and examined more that 5,000.
Q. Were you personally present at the exhumation?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you work at this exhumation?
A. As I told you, on 14 January, a group of medical-legal, experts left for the site of the burial ground.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you not just say how long it took -- the whole exhumation? In other words, to shorten it, can you not say how long it took?
THE WITNESS: Very well. The examination of the corpses lasted from 16 to 23 January 1944. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Did you find only Polish officers?
A. All the corpses, with the exception of two which were found in civilian clothing, were in Polish uniforms and belonged to the Polish Army.
Q. Did you try to determine from what camp these Polish officers came originally?
A. That task did not constitute part of my sphere of activity. I was occupied only with the legal-medical examination of thecorpses.
Q. You did not learn in any other way from what camps they came?
A. I can say that when receipts were found with the date of 1941, one could see that there was the number 1-0-A-N. That supposedly means that this was a camp of special assignment.
Q. Did you know of the Kosieltsk Campt?
A. Only from hearsay. I have not been there.
Q. Do you know that Polish officers were kept prisoners there?
A. I can say what I heard. I heard that they were, but I myself do not know and have not been there.
Q. Did you learn anything about the fate of these officers?
A. I can not say anything about them, but I spoke of the fate of those officers who were discovered in the graves of Katyn.
Q. How many officers did you find altogether in this grave at Katyn?
A. We did not separate the corpses according to their rank, but, in general, there were 925 corpses exhumed and examined.
Q. Was that the majority?
A. Very many corpses bore on the shoulder straps various insignia or ribbons or officers' rank insignia. I myself did not distinguish them, and up to the presend day I would not be able to distinguish the rank of the Polish officers.
Q. What happened to the documents which were found on the Polish prisoners?
A. The examination of the closing was carried out upon request of the Special Commission, and when these experts discovered documents, they handed them over to the members of the Special Commission, either to Academician Burdenka or Academician Tolstoi, or to the other members of the Commission, and apparently these documents are in the archives of the Extraordinary Commission.
Q. Are you of the opinion that from the findings regarding the corpses the time at which they were killed can be determined with certainty?
A. All the members of the Commission, in determining the date of burial of the corpses, based our conclusions on experience gained during previous examinations and also on material evidence which was discovered by legalmedical experts, and this gave us the opportunity to ascertain categorically that the Polish officers wereshot in the fall of 1941.
Q. I asked whether from the medical findings you could make a definite statement, whether you could come to any definite conclusion.
A. I can again confirm what I have already said -- that being in possession of vast experience in the sphere of mass exhumations, we came to the conclusion, and we also had in corroboration of these conclusions material evidence, and that is how we came to determine the date of the burial of the Polish officers -- namely, the autumn of 1941.
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions to put to this witness.
Mr. President, an explanation on the document which was just submitted, I have here only a copy signed by Heinrichs. I do not have the original.
THE PRESIDENT: I imagine the original is there.
DR. STAHMER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Smirnov, do you want to re-examine?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness, but with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to make a brief statement. case of Katyn only three. If the Tribunal is interested in hearing any other witness named in the reports of the Extraordinary State Commission, we have, in the majority of cases, adequate affidavits which we can submit on request of the Tribunal.
Moreover, any one of these persons can be called to this Court on the request of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer ?
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I have no objection to the further taking of evidence as long as it is on an equal basis; that is, if I have the opportunity to offer further evidence. I also am in a position to call further witnesses and experts for the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has already made its order; it does not propose to hear further evidence.
DR. STAHMER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal wishes to hear Dr. Bergold with reference to finishing the case of the defendant Bormann, and the Tribunal also understands that counsel for the defendant von Neurath has some documents which he wishes to present.
Dr. von Luedinghausen, have you got some documents for von Neurath ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you present than now ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, I have here two types of documents One type includes the documents which I indicated in my speech during my case to which I called the attention of the Court. They are all in the document books which have been submitted to the Court, and I believe it will be enough to hand these documents to the Secretary.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Luedinghausen, you have already offered them in evidence and they all have numbers, have they not ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Then I have a number of documents, probably twelve or fifteen, which have also been included in my document books in translation. However, I have not yet mentioned these documents and have not yet asked the Court to take judicial notice of them. If I may refer to them briefly, they are as follows:
A letter from Mr. von Neurath to Hitler of the 19th of June, 1933. Commission in 1926.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you kindly give them the exhibit numbers which they are to have as you off or them in evidence ?