communications between the Supreme Command of the Army Group and the various armies and other units which were directly under its command.
Q Was the staff of that regiment accommodated near you? own position. location of the staff quarters, 537 I mean? Commissars were supposed to have been living there before and it was on the steep bank of the River Dnieper. It was somewhat off the road, perhaps four to five hundred meters away and it was four kilometers west from the main highway Smolensk to Wibetsk. Smolensk? the regiment?
Q For how long?
Q Who was his successor?
Q How long?
Q Were you near Katyn aslong as that, too? quarters farther west, I was still there.
Q What were your relations to the commanders of this regiment? officially and after duty, which is due to the fact that I myself had been the first commander of that regiment. I myself had formed the regiment and I was most attached to it.
Q Did you personally visit the Dnieper castle frequently?
A I went to the Dnieper castle frequently; I can well say, in normal times, once or twice a week.
Q Did the commanders visit you in the meantime? five to forty kilometers from the town, there were three Russian camps which contained Polish prisoners of war who had fallen into the hands of the Germans?
A Nothing was known of that to me. I have never heard of it. Polish officers who were prisoners of war should be shot?
Q Have you yourself given such an order? such shootings to be carried out?
Q Why? through me, for I was the direct superior of the regiment. And, secondly, because if such an order had been given, for a reason which I couldn't explain to myself and through a channel which I wouldn't have been able to control, then the commanders would most certainly have called me or they would have come to see me and they would have said: "General, they are asking something here which we can not understand."
Q Do you know First Lt. Hodt?
Q What position did he have in Regiment 537?
A Hodt had a number of posts in the regiment. Mostly, he was sent ahead because he was a particularly qualified officer, particularly technically qualified. He was usually making preparations when headquarters were changed. He was used as an advance party of the so-called technical company, in order to establish the new fighting positions; and then in the regiment he was the expert for the telephone system. That meant he dealt with all telephone calls and all technical sides of the telephone system with the Supreme Commander of the Army Group, and in my staff he was often used to fill the position of any of my officers who were on leave.
A That I cannot say. I can only say that I personally heard from the head of my staff communications system that he had sent an officer ahead, after it had been ascertained where the headquarters were to be constructed, that this officer was acting on my behalf and was preparing things in such a way as I wanted it from the point of view of the communications troop commander. I do not know who was in charge of that advance party at the time, but it is perfectly possible that it was Lt. Hodt. the 20th of July, 1941, and in the transfer of your staff to Katyn on the 20th of September, were you in Katyn or the vicinity?
A I was in the vicinity. I was where the headquarters of the Army Group wanted to establish itself; that is, in the woods west of Smolensk, on the fringe of which was Katyn.
Q Were you there a let during that time?
Q Did you talk to Hodt on those occasions? not say today, then I must have talked to him certainly. At any rate, I did talk to my officer, the one I went, and on that occasion, the one belonging to the regiment also. time, shooting occurred? opened.
Q Did you or Regiment 537 have the necessary technical 1 July A LJG 14-1 means, pistols, ammunition and so on, at your disposal which would have made it possible to carry out such a decree?
ammunition and weapons. Naturally, because it was a communications regiment in the rear area, it was less efficiently equipped than the fighting troops. Such a task, however, would have been something unusual for the regiment, because a communications regiment has completely different tasks, and it wouldn't have been in a position technically to carry out such mass executions. later on?
Q Can you describe it mono accurately? through undulating ground. There were scattered spaces, which were overgrown with timber, however, and heather, and used as a path to get to the Knieper Castle from the main read. overgrown whom you got there? there was no difference between that space and the remaining part of the ground. consider it possible that 11,000 Peles could have been buried on that spot, people who may have been shot between June and September, 1941? for this one reason alone, that if the commander had known it at the time he would dertainly never have chosen as a place for his headquarters the spot next to 11,000 dead.
Q Can you tell me how the discovery of the graves happened?
A I had no official dealings with that. I only heard that through inhabitants or somebody it had become known that these large-scale executions had taken place there.
Q From whom did you hear that?
1 July A 14-2 LJG cause he was directly on that site had heard more about that than even I had. But I can't remember that exactly now.
Q So you didn't receive official notice about the discovery of the graves, did you?
A No, I didn't. German or foreign members of that commission?
DR. S TANNER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: ber 1943?
Q Excuse me. I meant September 1941. Is that correct? camps of Polish prisoners of war who were in the hands of German military authorities, is that so? prisoners of war being in the hands of German troops. official activity as a signal corps officer, but did you over witness cases when German military units combed the woods through the vicinity of the highway Smolensk-Witebsk to stop Polish prisoner of war who escaped from the camps? in order to, shall we say, recapture escaped Polish prisoners of war. I have heard about that here for the first time.
Q Please answer me. Haven't you seen German military units searching for Polish prisoners of war who were hiding in the woods?
Q Please answer the following question: You were on good 1 July A LJG 14-3 terms with Colonel Ahrens, weren't you?
Q And in addition to that, you were his immediate superior? of 1941 or at the beginning of 1942. Did he tell you about this, about the fact that he discovered them? to have discovered the graves. I cannot imagine that, and If he had, I would have known about it then. didn't communicate with you in regard to this fact? me if he had known. of the defense. You said that the signal corps regiment had not enough weapons to carry out these shootings. What do you mean by that? What number of weapons did you possess? and with carbines. They had no heavy arms.
Q Pistols of what caliber?
A That was the Parabellum pistol. The caliber, I think, was 7.65, but I can't remember for certain.
Q Parabellum pistols. Were these Mauser pistols or some other weapons?
A That varied. Non-commissioned officers, as far as I knew, had the smaller Mauser pistols. Actually, only non-commissioned officers were equipped with pistols. The majority of the men had carbines. You say that they were 7.65 caliber pistols, is that true. about the caliber, I only know that the Parabellum pistol had 7.65 or some such caliber.
I think the Mauser pistol had a some-
1 July A LJG 14-4 what smaller caliber.
Q And Walther pistols?
A There were Walthers there too. I think they had the same caliber as the Mauser. It is a smaller pistol and it is better than the somewhat cumbersome Parabellum pistol which is heavier.
Q Yes. Please tell me whether in this regiment the junior officers possessed the pistols. Is that true? not carbines.
Q All right. Please tell us how many pistols this signal corps regiment possessed.
A Of course I cannot tell you that. Let's assume that every NCC had a pistol -
Q And how many were there all together? How many pistols were there in your regiment if you consider that every non-commissioned officer had a pistol?
A Then that would amount to about 15-. However, to give a definite statement about that figure now is impossible. I can only give you clues. te carry out these mass killings which went on over a period of time? Why do you think so? in a large area is never together. The regiment went from Koladop as far as Tepsk and there were small units everywhere, and in the central department of the regiment there were comparatively few persons. There were never 150 pistols in one and the same place. wasn't it?
A I didn't understand your question. Katyn woods, weren't they?
A Principally there was the first company between the regimental staff quarters and the actual command of the army group.
Theywere accommodated there and they were the company which was handling the communications, the telephone and teleprinted messages for the army group. It was that company, therefore, which was nearest.
Q One more question. The officers of your regiment were obviously armed with pistols and not with carbines ? Possibly one or the other may have had a Parabellum pistol.
Q That is to say or a Walther or Mauser ? 537 was located ? visited the villa and special beds were prepared for them as well as drinks and food in the kitchen ? members of other units visited there or could have arrived there and would have been there. I do not know anything about that anyway.
Q I did not speak about a great number. I am speaking of twenty or sometimes twenty-five men. officers' meeting then, of course, the little castle at the Dnieper would have a number of officer visitors which it normally would not have.
I would like to ask you another question. Would the figure 537 appear on the epaulettes of the soldiers belonging to the 537 regiment ? beginning of the war they could be covered up to camouflage then but I cannot remember whether during that particular period these cover-up flaps were used or not. At any rate entrance to the regimental headquarters had a yellow and black flag, which bore the figure 537. shoulder strap the figure 537. Were you interested in finding out what those soldiers did there in September and October of 1941 ? Did your commanders report to you about this ?
A May I ask what year this was, in 1941 ? strangers at staff headquarters because during that period everything was being constructed and I cannot imagine that strange group units even of 20 or 30 people should have been there. I personally, as I have told you, was there only once or twice weekly during the beginning of October-November. villa once or twice a week ? What is the exact date ?
A That I cannot say, I cannot tell you. The commanders of the army group were at the end of September and shortly before the battle of Yasma moved into that district from Volsov. September or beginning of October. arrive much earlier than we from the supreme command of the army group. They did not move there much earlier.
THE PRESIDENT : Colonel Smirnov, is it necessary to go into this detail Have you any particular purpose in going into so much detail ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Mr. President, I ask this question for the following reasons. Later we shall interrogate witnesses for the Soviet Prosecution on the same point and chiefly that person who was the chief of the legal and medical branch. That is why I would like to ask the permission of the Court to clarify this point concerning the time when the witness visited the villa.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, very well. Do not go into greater detail than you find absolutely necessary. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV : villa of Katyn woods and you could not be there, is that true ?
A I cannot remember that exactly. The regimental commander used it and he reconnoitered around the little castle and set it up for staff headquarters. When exactly he moved I cannot possibly tell you because I had other jobs to do.
Q No, I asked whether you personally could be in the villa during the first part of September, roughly up to the 20th.
of September. Could you be there or not ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT : Do you wish to re-examine ?
DR. STAHMER : Unfortunately, Mr. President, I shall have to come back to the question of time because it was not brought out too clearly during these last questions. BY DR. STAHMER :
Q The decisive point is this, general. When did regiment 537 move into the castle ?
Q Beginning or end ?
Q Until then only the advance party were there ? sent ahead.
Q How many non-commissioned officers were with the advance party ?
A I cannot tell you exactly who the regiment sent. I personally had sent one officer. Generally the regiment could not have sent too many. Generally speaking, it is always the case that the regiment is still serving at the old position and simultaneously it is to construct the new position. Consequently, during this period of re-grouping, shall we say of the leap of a supreme command of an army group, there is always a considerable shortage of manpower. The old position still has to be looked after, the new position requires men for construction so that as always during this period, there were too few people. party ?
Q How many non-commissioned officers ? and some other ranks.
Q The regiment was very widely drawn out, was it not ?
Q How far, approximately ? Vitebsk -- in that entire area they were widely dispersed.
Q How many kilometers was that, approximately ?
Q Do you know Judge Advocate General Dr. Konrad of the Army group ? about the date when the Polish officers were supposed to have been shot in the wood ?
DR. STAHMER : I have no further questions, Mr. President. BY THE PRESIDENT : you were there ?
Q Did you ever hear of an order to shoot Soviet commissars ?
Q When ?
Q Before the campaign started or after ? of the campaign.
Q Who were to carry out that order?
1 July A LJG 16-1 troops. Therefore, that probably had nothing to do with that, and therefore, we were in no way affected by the order.
Q I did not ask you that. I asked you who had to carry it out. ably. to kill them; is that it? ing troops who were right out front and therefore had immediate contact with the enemy could be the only ones who were affected by that order. A signal regiment did not come into a position to to meet Commissars. That is probably why we were not mentioned in the order or affected by it.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I ask permission to call as witness the former deputy mayor of the city of Smolensk during the German occupation, Professor of Astronomy, Bazilevsky Boris. as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you make this form of oath: case, solemnly promise and swear before the High Tribunal to say all that I know about this case and to add or to withhold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to start with my interrogation, Mr. President.
1 July A LJG 16-2
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: the German occupation and where you were living in Smolensk. region, I lived in the city of Smolensk and was professor first at the Smolensk University and then-the same time I was Director of the Smolensk Astronomical Observatory. For twenty years I was the Dean of the Physics and Mathematics Faculty, and in the last years I was deputy of the Director of the Scientific part of the Institute.
Q How many years did you live in Smolensk altogether?
Q Do you know what the Katyn Woods was? tants of Smolensk used to pass their leisure time and holidays. which was fenced or guarded? place was never fenced, and no restrictions were ever placed on access to it. I personally used to go there very frequently. The last time I was there was in 194- and in the spring of 1941. In this woods there was also a camp for pioneers. Thus, there was free access to this place for everybody.
Q P lease tell me in what year there was a pioneer camp?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Professor, will you wait a minute, please? When you see that yellow light go on, it means that you are going too fast, and when you are asked a question, will you pause before you answer it? Do you understand?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
1 July A LJG 16-3 if you please. the area of the Katyn Woods in 1941. the war--and you speak also of the spring of 1941--the Katyn Woods was not a special reservation and was accessible to everybody?
A Yes. I say that that was the situation.
Q Do you say this as an eye-witness or from hearsay?
A. No, I say that as an eye-witness, who used to go there frequently.
Q. Please tell the Tribunal under what circumstances you became the first deputy of the mayor of Smolensk during the period of the German occupation. Please speak slowly.
A. I was an administrative employee, and I did not have an opportunity of leaving the place in time, since I was busy saving the very precious library of the Institute and the very precious equipment. I had an opportunity, thanks to circumstances, to try to escape only on the 15th in the evening, but I did not succeed in catching the train. I was supposed to leave the city on 16 July in the morning,but during the night of 15 to 16 the city was unexpectedly occupied by German troops. All the bridges across the Dneiper were blown up, and I found myself in captivity. observatory of which I was the Director. They took down that I was the Director and that I was living there and that there was also a professor of physics living in the same building. to headquarters of the unit which had occupied Smolensk. After checking my documents and after a short conversation, they suggested that I become Chief of the city. I refused, basing my refusal on the fact that I was a professor of astronomy and that I had had no experience in such matters and that I could not assume this role. They then declared categorically, "We are going to force the Russian intelligentsia to work."
Q. Thus, if I understand you correctly, the Germans forced you my threats to become the Deputy Mayor of Smolensk?
A. That is not all. They told me also that in a few days I would be summoned to the Kommandantur.
THE PRESIDENT: You are spending a lot of time on how he came to be Mayor of Smolensk.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Will you please allow me to pass to other questions, Mr. President? Thank you for your observations.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Who was your immediate superior? Who was the Mayor of Smolensk?
A. Michagin.
Q. What were the relations between this man and the German administration and particularly with the German Kommandantur?
A. These relations were established and became closer and closer every day.
Q. Is it correct to say that Michagin was the trustee of the German administration and that they even told him some secret information?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that in the vicinity of Smolensk there were Polish prisoners of war?
A. Yes, I do very well.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not know what this is going to prove. You presumably do, but can you not come nearer to the point?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: He said that he knew there were Polish prisoners of war in Smolensk, and with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to ask the witness what these prisoners of war were doing.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well; go on. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Please answer. What were the Polish prisoners of war doing in the vicinity of Smolensk, and at what time?
A. In the spring of 1941, and at the beginning of the summer they were working on the restoration of reads.
Q. What do you know about the further fate of the Polish prisoners of war?
A. Thanks to the position that I occupied, I learned about the fate of the Polish prisoners of war very early.
Q. Please tell the Tribunal what you know about it.
A. In view of the fact that in the camp for Russian prisoners of war there was such a regime that prisoners of war were dying by the hundreds every day, I tried to liberate men whenever I had the slightest reason to enter this camp.
I learned that in this camp there was also a very well known pedagogue named Chivlinski. I asked Michagin to ask the German Kommandantur of Smolensk, and in particular von Schwaetz, and try to liberate Chivlinski from this camp.
Q. Please do not go into detail and do not wast time, but tell the Tribunal about your conversations with Michagin. What did he tell you?
A. Michagin answered my request with, "What is the use? We can save one, but hundreds will die." However, I insisted, and Michagin, after a certain amount of hesitation, agreed to make such a demand upon the German Kommandantur.
Q. Please be short and tell us what Michagin told you about the German Kommandantur.
cause of my demand. Von Schwaetz refused him, referring to an instruction from Berlin in establish a very severe regime with respect to prisoners of war.
Q What did he tell you about Polish prisoners of war? themselves would die in the camps while there were orders to exterminate the Poles.
Q What conversation took place between you?
A I answered. I said. "What do you mean? What do you want to say? How do you understand this"? And Michagin answered: "You should understand this in this in the very literal sense of these words. He asked me not to tell anybody about it, since it was a very great secret." gin? I cannot remember the exact date.
Q But you remember it was the beginning of September? soners of war in your further conversations with Michagin?
A Yes. Two weeks later--that is to say, at the end of September--I could not help asking him, "What was the fate of the Polish prisoners of war?" At first Michagin hesitated, and then he told me, "They have already died. It is over with them."
Q Did he tell you where they were killed? Smolensk.
Q Did he Mention has exact place?
Q Tell me this. Did you, in turn, tell anybody about the extermination, by Hitlerites, of the Polish prisoners of war near Smolensk?
ing in the same house with me. In addition to that, a few days later I had a conversation about this with Dr. Nipolski, who was a physician in the city. However, I found out that Nipolski know about this from some other source.
Q Did Michagin tell why these shootings took place?
A Yes. When he told me of the prisoners of war who were killed, he emphasized once more the necessity of keeping it a secret, in order to prevent disagreeable compromises. He started to explain to me the reasons for the German behavior with respect to the Polish prisoners of war. He pointed out that this was only one link in the chain of the general system of German policy with respect to Polish prisoners of war. Poles from the employees of the German Kommandatura?
THE PRESIDENT: You are both going too fast, and you aren't pausing enough. You are putting your questions whilst the answers are coming through. You must have longer pauses, and go slower.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
A I don't know where I was. Kommandatura told you anything about the extermination of the Poles. Michagin, I found there an interpreter from the Seventh Division of the German Kommandateur who was in charge of the Russian Administration, and who had a conversation with Michagin concerning the, Poles. He was a German from the country.
A When I entered the room he said: "The Poles are not a valuable nation, and their extermination may serve for the widening of living space for the German Nation." However, he said it in a very general form.
the extermination of the Polish prisoners of war?
THE PRESIDENT: You are doing exactly what I said just now. You are asking the questions before the translation comes through.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Excuse me, Mr. President, I will try to speak more slowly. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: war near Smolensk? You heard it from Michagin and he, in turn, heard it from von Schwaetz. Is that true? Hirschfeld. I missed the beginning, but from the context of the conversation it was clear that they spoke about this event. ers of war, referring to the Commandant, von Schwaetz?
A Yes; as far as my impression goes, he referred to von Schwaetz. But--and this is my deep conviction--he had conversation, about it with private persons in the Kommandatura. were killed near Smolensk?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to put to this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken.)