DR. KRANZBUEHLER: Mr. President, I shall try to restrict myself to the utmost, but I am asking your permission to put two or three questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: If you have any special questions to put, you may suggest them to Dr. Stahmer, and Dr. Stahmer will put them.
Dr. Kranzbuehler, if you want to put any questions, you may put them to Dr. Stahmer, and he will put them to the witness.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER: Mr. President, I did not quite understand. Shall I write these questions down for Dr. Stahmer?
THE PRESIDENT: If you cannot do it verbally, you may do it in writing, and you may do it later on. But I really do not think there can be any questions which it is so difficult to suggest to Dr. Stahmer as all that.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER: It may be put through Dr. Stahmer? I was only thinking that I would save some time by putting the questions myself.
THE PRESIDENT: I told you, if you wish to ask any questions, you must ask them through Dr. Stahmer.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: In the meantime, the Tribunal will go on with the cross examination, and any questions which you wish to put can be put in reexamination.
Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q Witness, will you state your exact function in the army? You were in charge of telephone communications in the headquarters of the army group center, were you not?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, you are wrong. I was the export of the signal corps of the army group center, not the wireless expert.
Q That was precisely the core of my question. The translation was probably incorrect. So you were in charge of telephone communications, were you not? Is that correct?
A Yes; you are right.
Q Simple, clerical telegrams, or ciphered telegrams?
in the keeping open of connections.
Q No, I am not asking you in a general sense. I would like to know whether those were secret telegrams or current army mail, which was not secret.
Q Here you in charge of the secret telegrams, too? police authority passed through you; is that correct? the secret ones. These were submitted to me.
Q Yes. Consequently, the correspondence between the police authority and the Wehrmacht units passed through you; is that correct? I am asking you this question for a second time. not come through me, but only the more important secret teletype matters were submitted to me -- not the entire exchange of letters, because that was handled by correspondence and by couriers as well.
Q That is clear. Do you know in this case that in September and October, 1941, there were special units in Smolensk which were bound in close cooperation with the army to carry out the purge of the prisoner of war camps and to exterminate prisoners of war?
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I must object to the utmost to this questioning of the witness. This questioning can have only the purpose of determining connections between the OKW and other commanders. Therefore, they are accusing the general staff and the OKW; and if I am not permitted as the defense counsel for the OKW to put questions for reasons of equal treatment, then the same rules must apply to the prosecution as well.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Allow me, please, to give you a short explanation, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, the question is competent,
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I beg your pardon?
THE PRESIDENT: I said the question was competent. You may ask the question.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q I would like to ask you the following question. Since the secret war telephone messages passed through you, did you accomplish closer telephone communications with the so-called Einsatzgruppe B and the Sonderkommando Moskov, which was at that time in Smolensk, which was assigned to commit crimes in Moscow? Both commandos were at that time in Smolensk.
A Such reports did not come into my hands. I can give a complete explanation to you, Mr. Prosecutor. If, in the area of sphere of the army group center, commandos like that were used, those commandos had their own wireless stations; in the course of the Russian campaign, later, those officers had teletype connections as well. Then they based this activity on the network of the army group. However, that only happened later. accordance with instructions of high police authorities were assigned to carry out Sender actions in cooperation with military units did not pass through your hands in September and October of 1941?
A That is correct. At that time, there were no teletype connections and offices for special units, even if they were in that area at all.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, this document was already presented to the court when the Report No. USSR 3 was presented. If the Tribunal will permit it, I should like to present to the Tribunal and to the defense photostatic copies of one of the documents which were joined to that document.
If the Tribunal will look at Page 2 of this document, it will see that the Sonderkommando Moskov and the Einsatzgruppe 3 were located in Smolensk . It says on the first page that this unit, together with Wehrmacht units, was assigned to carry out mass killings in the camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, that is a matter of argument. We shall take judicial notice of it, of course, of everything which is in the Soviet Government's publication. I understand you to say that this document is a part of the Soviet government communication or Soviet government report.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; but I would like to ask permissionto present to the Tribunal an original German document, a secret document, which confirms the same thing,and which says that in the area of Smolensk therewere two such Sonder Commandos assigned to carry out mass killings in the camps. And they had to coordinate this action with Wehrmacht units which had to cooperate with them.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, is this document which you have just handed up to us a part of the Report USSR-3?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, it is a part of the report USSR 3, called Special Instructions of the Hitlerite Government concerning the Treatment of Prisoners of War. I would like to ask the Tribunal to allow me to present an original document. and were assigned to carry out mass killings in the prisoner of war camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Smirnov. This document is already in evidence, if the Tribunal understands.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: correspondence of these special units did not mass through your hands; is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: He has said that twice already.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Excuse me, Mr. President.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
about the killing of the Poles? Because the killing of the Poles was a special action, and communications of this action was not supposed to pass through your hands? Is that correct?
A Ianswered to the Soviet prosecutor -- rather I answered Dr. Stahmer-that if in the area of the Signal Group 537 killings of that sort had taken place I would have known about them. As the prosecutor just said, I did not claim that which he is trying to put before me.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal think you had better read this passage from this document, which is in the German language, to the Tribunal so that it will go into the record.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, Colonel Smirnov.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President.
This document is dated Berlin, 29 October 1941. It has a classification "Secret, important state matters", In the column concerning the reason, there is a reference to July and the 12th of August, 1941. I shall now read a few short sentences, and I shall begin with the first sentence:
"In the appendix, I give your directions for the evacuation of Soviet war civilian and prisoner of war camps and transient camps in the rear army territories and ask you for your acknowledgment.
"These directives have been worked outin collaboration with the OKW. The OKH has advised the commanders of therear army territory as well as the local commanders of the prisoner of war camps and the transient camps .
"The Special Action Groups, depending on the size of the camp in their territory, are setting up Sonder Commandos in sufficient strength under the leader ship of in SS leader."
Now I shall start reading the last paragraph:
"I emphasize especially that the orders Nos. 8 and 14, in case of evacuation, are to be destroyed immediately and a report is to be made in such a case to me." sent, especially the part concerning Smolensk. It says here that in Smolensk and 9; and in addition to this, there was also located in Smolensk, a Sonderkommando Moskov, which had been so named prematurely.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that the whole document shall be translated. We will now recess until five minutes past two.
(A recess was taken until 1405).
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 1 July 1946.)
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I have no more questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Mr. Witness, do you know who was in that Dnieper Castle before the occupation by German troops, who owned it, who lived there ?
A. That, I cannot say for certain. We noticed that the little castle was furnished astonishing well. It was built very efficiently. It had two bathrooms, a skiing room, a rifle range and a cinema. Just then we had drawn certain conclusions, that is to say, when the events became known but I do not know anything certain about the previous owner.
Q. The Russian prosecutors have submitted to you a document dated the 29th of October 1941. It contained directives for commandoes of the chief of the army group. With reference to that document, I want to ask you whether you had an opportunity to learn personally what the attitude of Fieldmarshal Kluge was, the chief of the army group, what his views were regarding the shooting of prisoners of war ?
A. Quite by accident, I became the personal witness of a conference between Book and Kluge, both supreme commanders. That conversation took place about two or three weeks, three or four weeks before the beginning of the Russian campaign and I cannot tell you the exact time. At the time, Fieldmarshal von Bock was the supreme commander of the army group center and Fieldmarshal von Kluge was the supreme commander of the 4th army group, at Warsaw. One day, I was called by the adjutant of Fieldmarshal von Bock, who was Lt. Colonel Count Hardenberg. He gave me the ------
THE PRESIDENT: Those details are entirely irrelevant, aren't they. All you want to ask him is : what was the attitude of von Huge ? That is all.
DR. STAHMER: The answer didn't come through. I didn't understand, Mr. President, what you said.
THE PRESIDENT: I said that all those details are irrelevant.
DR. STAHMER: It still isn't coming through. Yes, now Mr. President,
THE PRESIDENT: That I said was, that all these details about the particular place where von Kluge met some other army group commander is utterly irrevelant. All you are trying to ask him is : what was von Kluge's attitude towards the murder of war prisoners ? Isn't that all ?
DR. STAHMER: Yes. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Will you answer the question briefly, Mr. Witness. Please just tell us what von Kluge said .
A. Von Kluge told von Beck during a telephone conversation that the direction which contains orders to shoot certain prisoners of war was an impossibility and could not be carried out, considering the discipline of the troops. Von Bock shared this point of view and both these gentlemen talked for half an hour about the measures which they wanted to adopt in this connection.
Q. According to the allegations of the prosecution, the shooting of those cloven thousand Polish officers is supposed to have been carried out sometime in September 1941 and the question now is : Do you consider it possible, considering the local conditions, that such mass shootings and burials could have been carried out next door to the regimental headquarters without you yourself having heard about it ?
A. In preparation for the move of the army group to Smolensk, we were most attentive. We had quite a let of signal troops which were used for the purpose of extending the site. The entire site was continuously used by these troops for the laying of cables and telephone lines and it is out of the question that any such event could have occurred in that particular area without the regimental headquarters having failed to gain knowledge of it.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions to the witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, before calling my third witness, Lt. General Oberhausser, may I ask your permission to make the following remarks ? The prosecution have up to now only alleged that Regiment No. 537 had been the one which had carried out these shootings and it has alleged that they have done so under Colonel Ahrens' command. Still today, Colonel Ahrens is accused of being the perpetrator. Apparently this allegation has been dropped because it has been said that if it wasn't Ahrens it must have been his predecessor, Colonel Bedenck, and if it hasn't been done by Colonel Bedenck, then apparently there is supposed to be a third version, that it has been done by the SD. The defense had entirely adapted themselves to the contradicting statement that it had been Colonel Ahrens who had committed the act, but considering the changed attitude adopted by the prosecution, I shall have to name an additional fourth witness and that is 1st Lieutenant Hodt who had been mentioned as the perpetrator today and who was with the regimental staff right from the beginning and who was with the advance party which arrived at the Dnieper Castle, in July. The address of 1st Lieutenant Hodt, I heard of quite accidentally yesterday. He is at Gluecksburg near Flensburg and I therefore ask to be allowed to name 1st Lieutenant Hodt as a witness, who will give evidence that during the time between July and September such shootings were not carried out.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal will consider your application when they adjourn at half past three with reference to this extra witness.
DR. STAHMER: Yes, sir. Then I shall now call the witness Lt. General Oberhaueser. follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q General, what position did you hold during the war? the Polish campaign North; then Western campaign B, and then in Russia, Army Group Center.
Q When did you and your staff roach the neighborhood of Katyn?
Q Where was your staff located? Commander of the Army Group; that is to say, about twelve kilometers west of Smolensk near the railroad station of Krasnibor.
Q Was Regiment No. 537 under your command?
Q What task did that regiment have?
communications between the Supreme Command of the Army Group and the various armies and other units which were directly under its command.
Q Was the staff of that regiment accommodated near you? own position. location of the staff quarters, 537 I mean? Commissars were supposed to have been living there before and it was on the steep bank of the River Dnieper. It was somewhat off the road, perhaps four to five hundred meters away and it was four kilometers west from the main highway Smolensk to Wibetsk. Smolensk? the regiment?
Q For how long?
Q Who was his successor?
Q How long?
Q Were you near Katyn aslong as that, too? quarters farther west, I was still there.
Q What were your relations to the commanders of this regiment? officially and after duty, which is due to the fact that I myself had been the first commander of that regiment. I myself had formed the regiment and I was most attached to it.
Q Did you personally visit the Dnieper castle frequently?
A I went to the Dnieper castle frequently; I can well say, in normal times, once or twice a week.
Q Did the commanders visit you in the meantime? five to forty kilometers from the town, there were three Russian camps which contained Polish prisoners of war who had fallen into the hands of the Germans?
A Nothing was known of that to me. I have never heard of it. Polish officers who were prisoners of war should be shot?
Q Have you yourself given such an order? such shootings to be carried out?
Q Why? through me, for I was the direct superior of the regiment. And, secondly, because if such an order had been given, for a reason which I couldn't explain to myself and through a channel which I wouldn't have been able to control, then the commanders would most certainly have called me or they would have come to see me and they would have said: "General, they are asking something here which we can not understand."
Q Do you know First Lt. Hodt?
Q What position did he have in Regiment 537?
A Hodt had a number of posts in the regiment. Mostly, he was sent ahead because he was a particularly qualified officer, particularly technically qualified. He was usually making preparations when headquarters were changed. He was used as an advance party of the so-called technical company, in order to establish the new fighting positions; and then in the regiment he was the expert for the telephone system. That meant he dealt with all telephone calls and all technical sides of the telephone system with the Supreme Commander of the Army Group, and in my staff he was often used to fill the position of any of my officers who were on leave.
A That I cannot say. I can only say that I personally heard from the head of my staff communications system that he had sent an officer ahead, after it had been ascertained where the headquarters were to be constructed, that this officer was acting on my behalf and was preparing things in such a way as I wanted it from the point of view of the communications troop commander. I do not know who was in charge of that advance party at the time, but it is perfectly possible that it was Lt. Hodt. the 20th of July, 1941, and in the transfer of your staff to Katyn on the 20th of September, were you in Katyn or the vicinity?
A I was in the vicinity. I was where the headquarters of the Army Group wanted to establish itself; that is, in the woods west of Smolensk, on the fringe of which was Katyn.
Q Were you there a let during that time?
Q Did you talk to Hodt on those occasions? not say today, then I must have talked to him certainly. At any rate, I did talk to my officer, the one I went, and on that occasion, the one belonging to the regiment also. time, shooting occurred? opened.
Q Did you or Regiment 537 have the necessary technical 1 July A LJG 14-1 means, pistols, ammunition and so on, at your disposal which would have made it possible to carry out such a decree?
ammunition and weapons. Naturally, because it was a communications regiment in the rear area, it was less efficiently equipped than the fighting troops. Such a task, however, would have been something unusual for the regiment, because a communications regiment has completely different tasks, and it wouldn't have been in a position technically to carry out such mass executions. later on?
Q Can you describe it mono accurately? through undulating ground. There were scattered spaces, which were overgrown with timber, however, and heather, and used as a path to get to the Knieper Castle from the main read. overgrown whom you got there? there was no difference between that space and the remaining part of the ground. consider it possible that 11,000 Peles could have been buried on that spot, people who may have been shot between June and September, 1941? for this one reason alone, that if the commander had known it at the time he would dertainly never have chosen as a place for his headquarters the spot next to 11,000 dead.
Q Can you tell me how the discovery of the graves happened?
A I had no official dealings with that. I only heard that through inhabitants or somebody it had become known that these large-scale executions had taken place there.
Q From whom did you hear that?
1 July A 14-2 LJG cause he was directly on that site had heard more about that than even I had. But I can't remember that exactly now.
Q So you didn't receive official notice about the discovery of the graves, did you?
A No, I didn't. German or foreign members of that commission?
DR. S TANNER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: ber 1943?
Q Excuse me. I meant September 1941. Is that correct? camps of Polish prisoners of war who were in the hands of German military authorities, is that so? prisoners of war being in the hands of German troops. official activity as a signal corps officer, but did you over witness cases when German military units combed the woods through the vicinity of the highway Smolensk-Witebsk to stop Polish prisoner of war who escaped from the camps? in order to, shall we say, recapture escaped Polish prisoners of war. I have heard about that here for the first time.
Q Please answer me. Haven't you seen German military units searching for Polish prisoners of war who were hiding in the woods?
Q Please answer the following question: You were on good 1 July A LJG 14-3 terms with Colonel Ahrens, weren't you?
Q And in addition to that, you were his immediate superior? of 1941 or at the beginning of 1942. Did he tell you about this, about the fact that he discovered them? to have discovered the graves. I cannot imagine that, and If he had, I would have known about it then. didn't communicate with you in regard to this fact? me if he had known. of the defense. You said that the signal corps regiment had not enough weapons to carry out these shootings. What do you mean by that? What number of weapons did you possess? and with carbines. They had no heavy arms.
Q Pistols of what caliber?
A That was the Parabellum pistol. The caliber, I think, was 7.65, but I can't remember for certain.
Q Parabellum pistols. Were these Mauser pistols or some other weapons?
A That varied. Non-commissioned officers, as far as I knew, had the smaller Mauser pistols. Actually, only non-commissioned officers were equipped with pistols. The majority of the men had carbines. You say that they were 7.65 caliber pistols, is that true. about the caliber, I only know that the Parabellum pistol had 7.65 or some such caliber.
I think the Mauser pistol had a some-
1 July A LJG 14-4 what smaller caliber.
Q And Walther pistols?
A There were Walthers there too. I think they had the same caliber as the Mauser. It is a smaller pistol and it is better than the somewhat cumbersome Parabellum pistol which is heavier.
Q Yes. Please tell me whether in this regiment the junior officers possessed the pistols. Is that true? not carbines.
Q All right. Please tell us how many pistols this signal corps regiment possessed.
A Of course I cannot tell you that. Let's assume that every NCC had a pistol -
Q And how many were there all together? How many pistols were there in your regiment if you consider that every non-commissioned officer had a pistol?
A Then that would amount to about 15-. However, to give a definite statement about that figure now is impossible. I can only give you clues. te carry out these mass killings which went on over a period of time? Why do you think so? in a large area is never together. The regiment went from Koladop as far as Tepsk and there were small units everywhere, and in the central department of the regiment there were comparatively few persons. There were never 150 pistols in one and the same place. wasn't it?
A I didn't understand your question. Katyn woods, weren't they?
A Principally there was the first company between the regimental staff quarters and the actual command of the army group.
Theywere accommodated there and they were the company which was handling the communications, the telephone and teleprinted messages for the army group. It was that company, therefore, which was nearest.
Q One more question. The officers of your regiment were obviously armed with pistols and not with carbines ? Possibly one or the other may have had a Parabellum pistol.
Q That is to say or a Walther or Mauser ? 537 was located ? visited the villa and special beds were prepared for them as well as drinks and food in the kitchen ? members of other units visited there or could have arrived there and would have been there. I do not know anything about that anyway.
Q I did not speak about a great number. I am speaking of twenty or sometimes twenty-five men. officers' meeting then, of course, the little castle at the Dnieper would have a number of officer visitors which it normally would not have.
I would like to ask you another question. Would the figure 537 appear on the epaulettes of the soldiers belonging to the 537 regiment ? beginning of the war they could be covered up to camouflage then but I cannot remember whether during that particular period these cover-up flaps were used or not. At any rate entrance to the regimental headquarters had a yellow and black flag, which bore the figure 537. shoulder strap the figure 537. Were you interested in finding out what those soldiers did there in September and October of 1941 ? Did your commanders report to you about this ?
A May I ask what year this was, in 1941 ? strangers at staff headquarters because during that period everything was being constructed and I cannot imagine that strange group units even of 20 or 30 people should have been there. I personally, as I have told you, was there only once or twice weekly during the beginning of October-November. villa once or twice a week ? What is the exact date ?
A That I cannot say, I cannot tell you. The commanders of the army group were at the end of September and shortly before the battle of Yasma moved into that district from Volsov. September or beginning of October. arrive much earlier than we from the supreme command of the army group. They did not move there much earlier.
THE PRESIDENT : Colonel Smirnov, is it necessary to go into this detail Have you any particular purpose in going into so much detail ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Mr. President, I ask this question for the following reasons. Later we shall interrogate witnesses for the Soviet Prosecution on the same point and chiefly that person who was the chief of the legal and medical branch. That is why I would like to ask the permission of the Court to clarify this point concerning the time when the witness visited the villa.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, very well. Do not go into greater detail than you find absolutely necessary. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV : villa of Katyn woods and you could not be there, is that true ?
A I cannot remember that exactly. The regimental commander used it and he reconnoitered around the little castle and set it up for staff headquarters. When exactly he moved I cannot possibly tell you because I had other jobs to do.
Q No, I asked whether you personally could be in the villa during the first part of September, roughly up to the 20th.
of September. Could you be there or not ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT : Do you wish to re-examine ?
DR. STAHMER : Unfortunately, Mr. President, I shall have to come back to the question of time because it was not brought out too clearly during these last questions. BY DR. STAHMER :
Q The decisive point is this, general. When did regiment 537 move into the castle ?
Q Beginning or end ?
Q Until then only the advance party were there ? sent ahead.
Q How many non-commissioned officers were with the advance party ?
A I cannot tell you exactly who the regiment sent. I personally had sent one officer. Generally the regiment could not have sent too many. Generally speaking, it is always the case that the regiment is still serving at the old position and simultaneously it is to construct the new position. Consequently, during this period of re-grouping, shall we say of the leap of a supreme command of an army group, there is always a considerable shortage of manpower. The old position still has to be looked after, the new position requires men for construction so that as always during this period, there were too few people. party ?
Q How many non-commissioned officers ? and some other ranks.