Never had he given it that interpretation, that meaning and sense.
The exact opposite had been true. The German people, on the DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I have no further questions that I THE PRESIDENT:
Does any other Defense Counsel want to ask any questions?
BY DR. STAHMER: (Counsel for defendant Goering )
Q Mr. Witness, did you learn about these things and ascertain that authorities?
A No. At that time I did not learn of these things. However, here these wild-cat concentration camps?
A I can give you a very precise answer to that question. These Strasse.
To what category that camp belonged, I do not know. These abuses an investigation -- a promise which was kept.
Of course, on that occasion, DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.BY DR. KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for defendant von Papen): was prohibited. Is it correct to say that from that period of time onward, any statement on the part of von Papen was granted only with the approval of the Propaganda Ministry, approval given in advance before the speech or statement could be published? speech was, as I remember it distinctly, caused by the later Ministerialdirektor Berndt. This man called the attention of Dr. Goebbels to the speech, and, with respect to any other statement made by Papen, the principle was effective that not even the Propaganda Ministry would have the right to give them out, but, rather, that they had to be transmitted either to the Minister in question or to the Fuehrer. von Papen for quite some time and that you learned to know him when you visited Turkey.
Just when did you visit Turkey?
Q What was the purpose of your visit? on the 30th of January.
Q Did Mr. von Papen have anything to do with this speech and with this festivity?
A No, less than nothing. I received an official request from Berlin to see to it that Mr. von Papen would not depart before the celebration of the 30th of January, as he was wont to do. To the contrary, I did not try to persuade Mr. von Papen, and in time he left his office in order to go ski-ing.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: That is all. BY DR. KLEFISCH (Counsel for the SA) at the end of the year 1933 and at the beginning of the year 1934 SA men, without professions, were guarding certain concentration camps and that certain abuses were to be traced back to that fact. I have but one question, who reported that to you? who was the author of that report? whose name was Gerhard Radke.
DR. KLEFISCH: Thank you very much. BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for defendant Funk): was not concerned with propaganda in the Propaganda Ministry, but that, in the main, he was concerned with organizational matters rather than propaganda matters. Now I should like to ask you to answer several questions regarding the activities of the defendant Funk; that is, his activities in the Propaganda Ministry, of course. and that was a state institution. How long did this press department exist, and what became of it?
A It existed, for quite some time. Up until March of 1933 it was a branch of the Foreign Office. From that time onward it became a branch of the Propaganda Ministry, and from that time on it had a dual mission to carry on, first of all to be the press department of this Ministry, and secondly, to be a press department for the Reich Government and function as such. from the incorporation of the Press Department into the Propaganda ministry -who was the Chief of this Press Department and, for all practical purposes, was the chief of the press system? Was that Funk or was it someone else. Ministerial Director Berndt. This Press Department was then partitioned into three sections: German press -knowing whether the chief of this department was the defendant Funk, or whether it is correct to say that he had nothing to do with these matters. work was concerned he had no connection with that. That came from Dr. Goebbels to Hancke, and to Jancke.
Q And later to Berndt?
Q Witness, I have another question. Who had the management of then press policy in the Propaganda Ministry? In this case I am referring to the State organ. Did the defendant Funk have anything to say in this connection, or just who was it? Who directed the press policy?
AAt that time Dr. Goebbels himself exercised that function. Later on it was the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich.
or at least he had the title of State Secretary. Now, looking at this matter rather generally, I would be interested in knowing this. Did he, in fact, have the position of a State Secretary and exercise authority as such, or was the function of State Secretary, who was the regular deputy of the Minister -was that the fraction of another official? the prestige and the salary of a State Secretary, but the practical work was distributed a little differently. I have already mentioned that.
Q Just how was it handled? as they applied to the gigantic cultural concern which was being developed at that time; whereas the actual policy was set up by Dr. Goebbels with the chief of his ministerial office, Hancke, who was the successor of Funk as State Secretary.
Do you know how Minister Dr. Goebbels, in November of 1938, or later, made statements about the Jewish pogroms of the 9th of November, 1938, and how he made statements referring to Funk?
A Much later, Dr. Goebbels stated in my presence that one, on occasion, would just have to be radical. At that time,when Funk had constantly stated that the Jews could not be eliminated from economic life, he, Dr. Goebbels, had to admonish Mr. Funk, that there were things for which he was responsible in the riots of the 8th of November. Jewish action, for which Dr. Goebbels was responsible was instigated with the specific purpose of discrediting Dr. Funk and confronting him with a fait accompli? Did he state anything like that?
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions, Mr. President. BY DR. SIEMERS (Counsel for the defendant Raeder):
Q Mr. Fritsche, in this Court we have heard what grave accusations are made against the defendant Raeder because of an article in the newspaper Der Voelkischer Beobachter. The article I refer to is "Churchill Sinks the Athenia", which was published on the 23rd of October, 1939.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, this is document 3260-PS, equal to GB-218.
Q (Continuing): As far as the case Athenia is concerned, I should like to put a few questions to you.
Mr. Fritsche, when did the Propaganda Ministry receive the report about the torpedoing of the Athenia, and in what way? Through what channels did you receive this report? received this report by wireless; that is, we listened in to a foreign broadcast. Athenia, is that right? Staff in order to learn the details of this matter? officer from the Navy Staff in my office, for censorship purposes. what did you learn? just mentioned -- that was Kapitaenleutnant Hahn. Then he telephoned, and in all probability I phoned too, to the OKM, the High Command of the Navy. As far as I recall, I spoke to Korvettenkapitaen Wolf.
Q What did he tell you? What did Korvettenkapitaen Wolf tell you? area in question.
Q I should like to remind you that the Athenia was sunk on the 4th of September, 1939.
Navy had stated that it was not a German U-boat which had sunk the ship?
Q Mr. Fritsche, how did it happen that about six to seven weeks later the article "Churchill Sinks the Athenia" appeared, which was published on the 23rd of October, 1939? What are the antecedents? Shall I show you the article?
A Thank you, no. I remember this incident especially well, as I have checked my memory about it since this case was mentioned again for the first time here in the Court. way of directions which covered all details, and that the demand to write this article came directly from Hitler. The order to write thearticle went through two different channels; First, through a telephone call by the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich; and second, through a telephone call by Dr. Goebbels or one of his delegates--I am not able to tell you just who it was, whetherit was Goebbels or one of his delegates. This order was to be transmitted to Der Voelkischer Beobachter. details. when I told one of my co-workers to inform the Voelkischer Beobachter, he came back to me with the report that that would not be necessary because the Voelkischer Beobachter had already heard the necessary details directly.
Q When was this order given by Hitler, and, respectively, Goebbels? with this article? Raeder about this article, or did you advise him of the order given by Hitler in this direction? at all of the article, which originated in the manner that I have just described to you.
anyone in the High Command of the Navy, or with Grand Admiral Raeder about this case?
Q Mr. Fritsche, is it correct to say that in September of 1939 the paper "The Times" claimed that in Czechoslovakia, through German hands, ten thousand Czechs had been murdered at Prague, including the Lord Mayor? matter was mentioned in the News Chronicle.
Q What did the Propaganda Ministry undertake to do thereupon?
A German and foreign journalists were taken to Prague. If I am not mistaken, one of the foreign journalists who went along to Prague on that trip, as far as I can recall, is present in this courtroom.
Q What did these foreign journalists find? What did they find out? had been killed; they traveled about the country, and they reported accordingly. this report was shown to be quite false. However, I must add that since Monday of this week, since the testimony given by Mr. von Neurath, it has become quite clear to me that in the background, in the shade of this great and effective denial, an action of arrests was being carried out in Czechoslovakia. In order to clarify this matter, I should add this. There is something, dealing with -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): How does this affect Raeder?
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I believe that in a certain way it is a parallel case to the article in the Voelkischer Beobachter, which the prosecution is stressing for reasons not quite clear to me.
THE PRESIDENT: The tribunal thinks the evidence is incompe-
28 June M LJG 5-1d tent. BY DR. SIEMERS:
Q Mr. Feitsche, do you know what Dr. Goebbels attitude was to Grand Admiral Raeder? Grand Admiral Raeder it could be seen that it was an adverse attitude, it was a repudiating attitude. He gave as his reason, on numerous occasions, that Raeder was adverse to the Party and the Party's wishes. He based this attitude on the positive position which Raeder took in Church matters, and the protection which he accorded Navy clergymen who were subject to attacks on the part of the Party.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I have no further questions. BY DR. HORN (counsel for defendant von Ribbentrop): present which took place between Molotov and Ribbentrop. Just where did you got your information?
A There is a mistake contained in your question. I did not say that General Niedermeier participated in this discussion. What I did say was this, and I should like to elaborate a little bit on this point. who, for weeks or months, just before that time, had been in another cell, with the interpreter who had the task of interpreting the discussion of Molotov and Ribbentrop. interpreter?
Q I have one more question. After the last discussion on the 30th of October, 1939, between the British Ambassador, Sir Neville Henderson, and the then Foreign Minister von Ribbontrop, in which the basis for negotiations with Poland were made public, those conditions were published the next day in the Daily Telegraph, and allegedly this issue of the paper was to have been recalled.
What do you knew about this incident?
28 June M LJG 5-2d has found its way into your question. On the following morning of the day in question, the Daily Telegraph did not publish the conditions or the note, but, on the other hand, it brought forth a report about the fact that during the preceding night the British Government had been in consultation with the Germans about conditions for Poland, conditions which had been transmitted to them by their British Ambassador. Therefore, it could be seen from this article--at any rate, it could not be interpreted in any other way--that these conditions were known in London.
DR. HORN: Thank you very much. BY DR. THOMA (Counsel for the defendant Rosenberg):
Q Mr. Fritsche, you stated yesterday that the Voelkischer Beobachter had direct connections with the Fuehrer and with their Fuehrer's headquarters, and that was applicable during the time of the war. Whom did you refer to in the Voelkischer Beobachter when you said they had connections with the Fuehrer and their Fuehrer's headquarters during the war?
I did not mean personalities within the Voelkischer-Beo bachter; I meant personalities at the headquarters.
Therefore, Dr. Dietrich raid his delegates made it their business to call the Voelkischer-Beobachter direct.
Q. You know that Rosenberg, since the year 1937, was not the chief editor of the Voelkischer-Beobachter?
A. I am of the conviction that even before that time he held that position in names only.
Q. Witness, can you tell the court, as far as the so-called actions of the Party were concerned--and I mean the burning of the books, the boycott in April of 1933, the Jewish actions in November of 1938-- who was the motivating factor in all of these actions?
A. Today I am of the firm conviction that it was Dr. Goebbels.
Q. Witness, do you know that Goebbels, whenever Hitler was in Berlin, always was Hitler's guest?
A. That is not true in that way and in that sense. Before the war Dr. Goebbels saw Hitler only rarely.
Q. I have another question. Do you know that Goebbels had a direct telephone line to Hitler?
A. That is news to me. How is the first time I heard that.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, this has nothing; to do with Rosenberg, has it, the fact that Goebbels had a direct line to Hitler?
DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I wanted to know by that only wheter Fritsche knows that Rosenberg had the same connection to Hitler and Goebbels.
THE WITNESS: I do not know what kind of telephone Rosenber had, and his connections. But I know, and I have heard frequen tly that Rosenberg seldom visited Hitler.
DR. THOMA: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other defendants counsel that wants to ask questions?
(No response).
THE PRESIDENT: Then we will recess.
(A recess was taken).
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine?
BY GENERAL RUDENKO: of all in order to clear up the role you played.
A May I have the volume increased slightly, please? Thank you very much. role which the German propaganda played in the criminal activity of the Hitler government. Tell me, do you admit that the German propaganda disseminated racial theory and introduced into the minds of the German people the ideas regardingthe "master race" of the German people, do you admit that?
A The question touches upon two problems. May I reply to you to both of them? I admit that German propaganda spread, the racial theory, but I deny that German propaganda spread the theory of the "master race."
Q So you deny this?
Q Very well. Do you admit that the German propaganda incited in the German people racial hatred toward the Jews and told about the necessities of their extermination? I answer separately?
Q You don't have to emphasize this. You can just answer. If there are two questions included you can reply to the two questions at the same time. German propaganda represented the racial theory but I deny that most emphatically that German propaganda had made preparationsor had incited the mass murder of Jews.
Q But you couldn't deny that the German propaganda incited in the German people their racial hatred toward Jews. You will have to admit that. You couldn't deny this.
A I cannot even affirm that without reserve. That is the reason why, in my answer to the second question, I used a slightly different touch.
German propaganda, and under that I understand official German propaganda, did not even preach racial hatred.
It preached the difference between races and that is something quite different but I will admit to you that there was one type of German propaganda which went beyond that and which did preach the clear out and primitive racial hatred. directed to the persecution of the church? toward the persecution of the church?
A That is exactly what I wanted to say. Official German propaganda did not persecute the churches but to clear up this point for you, here again there was an illegal propaganda not run by the state against the church and the state and its organizations, they were above this during the time of the church struggle,have made many utterances and committed many actions which might have created the impression as if they had participated in the struggle against the churches. By this, I mean the trials against clergymen and which had been organized as sensational trials.
Q Very well. You will admit that the propaganda conducted by the Hitlerite government connected with the so-called problem of the expansion of the life area of Germany, cultivated and expounded in the German nation militaristic tendencies. and lies and slander in order to camouflage the aggressive plans of the Hitlerite government?
A Mr. Prosecutor, to answer that question is something I am finding most difficult, after having testified to hear in this courtroom voluntarily yesterday. If I am to make the attempt to summarize very briefly, then I shall have to say this: I maintain that the German propaganda has given to the German nation in the case of every individual action which was carried out beginning with the occupation of the Rhineland and ending with the attack against the Soviet Union, a picture of the events which amongst the Germans much have created the impression that we were in the right. On the other hand, however, I myself -- and I emphasized when this was--had recognized that the structure of these arguments had a basis which was ruptured in many places.
Q What is to say, on the basis of slander and lies?
A No. Please, let me apologize but your way of putting it doesn't appear to be quite clear-cut enough. methods of slander and lies; do you deny this? paganda and I should like you to permit me to give you a very brief explanation in this connection. Looking at it today -
Q Please, will you give an explanation only directly to my question? German people that its propaganda, particularly with regard to its details which could be controlled, was so clean that it was completely overlooked, that in its free and most basic principles there were three mistakes. I cannot make it more clear to you.
Q About which mistakes are you speaking about?
A The first, the trust in Adolf Hitler's humanitarian point of view which was destroyed by the order to murder five million. The second, the trust in the ethical cleanliness of the system destroyed by the orders as to culture; and the third, the trust in the unreserved will for peace of Adolf Hitler shaken by everything which has been brought up in this courtroom.
Q. Very well. We shall report to these questions later when we speak about your personal participation in the conducting of the German propaganda.
I should like to ask you now the following: Of course you were aware that in the OKW there was a special section for propaganda, which was subordinate directly to defendant Jodl?
A. That was known to me, but you are mistaken if you are under the impression that that department was under defendant Jodl. It was under the jurisdiction of General Wedel and he was succeeded by Standartenfuehrer Gunther.
Q. Very well. I shall not repeat this question any further, but I am interested in another question: What were the relations between the Ministry of Propaganda and the OKW?
A. Between the Ministry of Propaganda and the OKW, I cannot tell you, not generally, but I can give you detailed informations about the connection between the Ministry of Propaganda and this department, this Propaganda Department of the OKW which you have just mentioned. A permament representative from that department worked in the ministerial offices of Dr. Goebbels, who participated daily in the Ministry conferences which I have already mentioned once, and who was really always a member of the immediate entourage of Dr. Goebbels.
Q. Who was the one who gave the propaganda tasks and the directives to the OKW?
A. I can only imagine the situation like this: The propaganda tasks of the OKW were drawn up and coordinated to Dr. Goebbels'wishes and the instruction from the chief of the OKW, which means Keitel or Jodl.
Q. How was the general German propaganda used in connection with the propaganda measures which were put through by the OKW?
A. I don't quite understand the meaning of your question I'm afraid.
Q. How was the general German propaganda used in connection with the propaganda measures which were put into life by the OKW?
A. very probably it was just fitted into the propaganda measures adopted by the OKW, because Dr. Goebbels was so strong a personality that he would not have tolerated any disregard for his propagandist principles.
Q. Very well. I will ash you to reply to this question: What relations existed between the Ministry of Propaganda and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?
A. At one time or another relations were somewhat tense, but during the latter years of the war a representative from the Foreign Ministry participated in the minister conferences of the Propaganda Ministry at all times.
Q. What part did the Ministry of Foreign Affairs play in the purrting through of the propaganda measures which especially referred to the preparation and execution of the aggresive wars?
A. May I give you this answer to your question: During every moment at the beginning of an action or a war, a representative from the Foreign Office used to appear with a completed book, a White Book. I am unaware of the origin of these White Books. At any rate, there were not prepared in the Ministry of Propaganda. In a few cases I learned afterwards, a few details about their origin, which came from the Foreign Office.
Q. Would it be correct to make the following deduction, that the Ministry of foreign Affairs participated directly and actively in the preparation of the propaganda tasks and -
A. No doubt that is true because particularly the Foreign Minister reserved himself the decisive word with reference to propaganda which was connected with foreign policy and also with reference to any propaganda which went abroad.
Q. Did you have in mind defendant Ribbentrop when you just replied and when you spoke about his role?
A. Of course.
Q. Very well. You acknowledge and maintain that defendant Ribbentrop personally gave out the propaganda tasks and explained the attack on the Soviet Union as a preventative war?
A. That question cannot be answered with yes or no, but with a very brief description of the facts.
The former Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop received, in the early morning hours of the day when the Russian campaign started, the foreign Press conrrespondents and the German Press. He put a White Book before them and he went on to explain in a speech what the situation was, and concluded in this sense, that he emphasized that for all these reasons Germany was forced to begin this attack against the Soviet Union in order to beat a Soviet attack to it, and please, will you Gentlemen of the Press present the facts in this particular manner.
Q. I should like to determine through this question that the propaganda tasks were given by defendant Ribbentrop himself, and you do admit and maintain it?
A. I beg to apologize, but I have admitted exactly what I have said, and your last question is a conclusion based on what I have said, and that I do not want to agree to.
Q. Yes. However, to my previous question you did reply and spoke about the decisive role of defendant Ribbentrop in questions of propagadna, the foreign policy propaganda; is that correct?
A. Perfectly correct.
Q. It is enough; let's skip that question. Please tell me what were the relations between the Minister of Propaganda and the so-called ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories? Please explain to me in this connection, how were the relations carried on between these two ministries?
A. There was a permanent Liaison officer who was a member both of the Ministry for Eastern Affairs and the ministry of Propaganda, and beyond that, there was an institution which had been founded by both ministries jointly, and was jointly administrated by them. It was the institution called "Veneta", which handled the entire propaganda in the East.
Q. Yes, I understand. In what order and who, specifically, prepared the propaganda slogans, as you called then, in Germany, which were intended for the occupied territories? Who was the one who planned and prepared them?
A I cannot tell you under oath, because I am not so 28 June M LJG 9-1 absolutely certain, but it is my assumption that they were developed, based on the well-known existing principles of general propaganda by Dr. Taubert who was mentioned, and his associates, in this institute called Veneta.
Q Very well. But apparently you are aware of the fact, and will also tell us about it, that the leading influence of the Ministry of Propaganda was being felt in all these measures.
A Quite definitely. Indubitably the ministry of Propaganda had the superior initiative here, and the better influence.
Q That is clear. Tell me, what influence did the defendant Bormann have on German propaganda? What role did he personally play in that?
A That role was unusually great. I know that it isn't very popular when there are statements here about a man who presumably is dead. In the interests of the historic truth, however, I shall never theless have to tell you this.
Q We don't knew yet whether Bormann is dead. We only know that he is not present on the defendants' bench, but he is, however, one of the defendants. strong, not only in every other sphere, but also in the propaganda sector. It became apparent in the following way: agitation which I mentioned yesterday, that of the most radical outlook. A teleprint message from Bormann to Dr. Goebbels with, shall we say, the following contents, " I hear complaints from Party circles regarding this that or the other," would always be the cause for Dr. Goebbels' entire machinery to accelerate considerably.
Secondly -- and this is something which I can't express differently under oath -- Dr. Goebbels was quite clearly scared of Martin Bormann.
Finally, he always tried to have any actions of his which 28 June M LJG 9-2 might have been misinterpreted by radical elements in the party justified in Bormann's eyes.
who were not named here during my cross examination actively participated in the propaganda activities, and in what form. Perhaps you will be able to tell us something about the defendants who are present here.
A I certainly don't like to, Mr. Prosecutor, but I shall give you your answer. came from, one of the departments under the command of the defendant Kaltenbrunner. Whether he was responsible for it in person, that I do not know, but here are the facts: During the struggle for realistic news service which I mentioned yesterday, I repeat edly came up against resistance from the Party and the Foreign Office, and I found the support of a department, the name of which I have forgotten, which belonged to the RSHA, most useful. This department used to issue reports about the general viewpoint amongst the people in Germany, and these reports were sent to various supreme authorities in the Reich. praise for realistic news, the very thing which had been fought against by the other two sources which I have mentioned. who else of the defendants could you name? any influence or not?
Q Why do you say "unfortunately"? a very beneficial task. He was, shall we say, the complaint department for all shortcomings in the Party and the State. I wish he could have continued.
28 June M LJG 9-3
Q Very well; we don't need to speak about it in detail. Now, let's go into the explanation of your personal participation and your personal role in the activity of German propaganda. I should like you to state exactly what relations you had with Dr. Goebbels. Yesterday you spoke about it in detail, but here I should like you to state it briefly.
A The briefest formula is this: Personally, little touch; officially, as time went by, more and more touch.
Q Yes. Did you know the name of General Fieldmarshal Scherner? his testimony. I am submitting this document as Exhibit USSR472. We are going to hand you this document in a minute. In order to facilitate the reading of it, the paragraph which I am going to read here is underlined in red pencil. I am going to read Paragraph No. 1 into the record. Will you please follow the text:
"Everybody was aware, including myself, that Fritsche was not only a close associate of Goebbels, but was also a favorite of his. He gained Goebbels' sympathy by frequently copying him in his political activities and quoting Goebbels in his speeches. Goebbels, in his printed and verbal speeches, referred to the conclusions and prognoses made by Fritsche as having the force of official declarations." reality? 1, 2, or 3?
Q I have already told you that this is Quotation No. 1.
AAccording to my text, the first one says:
"It was generally known, and I knew as well, that Fritsche was not only Goebbels' fellow fighter, but also his darling."
" Yes, that is quite correct. That is exactly what I quoted.