The directions were such that they could have been murdered by anyone of the guards, the SS or Gestapo if they noticed it. It was possible for me as a doctor to talk to these people; they trusted me and knew that I as a Pole, would never betray them to anyone.
Signed: Dr APOLINARY GOTOWICKI" BY MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: in your judgment, to the fact that bombing took place and the billets of the prisoners and workers were destroyed.
A That is true, but that doesn't mean that such conditions, if they should really be true, could be considered as general.
Q I'm sorry. My device has been turned to the wrong dial and I didn't get that. Would you give me that answer again. such as are described in this affidavit cannot be considered as being general. Apart from that, I don't believe that the matters contained herein are true, but I can't speak about that because you can't expect me to knew the details of the goings on in the firm of Krupp. billet forced workers and prisoners of war so close to military targets as these prisoners were?
A I don't want to tell you a certain number of things which every German has at heart Non-military targets were attacked.
Q You wouldn't consider the Krupp plants proper targets?
A The camps weren't in the Krupp works. They were near the town of Essen. On principle, we didn't construct camps near the works because we expected that they would be bombed, and because we didn't want the camps to be destroyed. the camp directly against the works?
(The photograph was shown to the defendant.
A. On this photograph it is recognizable that some large factory is in the background, but that does not alter my statement, namely, that almost exclusively we constructed the camps outside the works. I don't knew how this can be the case in this particular instance, and I can not say whether it is a camp or just changling barracks. It might have been anything left there in the proximity of the camp. I still believe that these cupboards war ordinary cupboards, and this is one of the many barracks that were necessary for the workers to change in before and after work. The fact that these are wardrobes and not any special cupboards is something that any expert in Germany will confirm because this is a mass produced article. In favor of this i the fact that there are airhole vents at the top, just as every wardrobe has such ventilation holes for air intake and outlet.
Q. As Production Minister, you were vitally interested in reducing the sickness rate among workers were you not?
A. I was interested in seeing that the output was high, and part of that in special cases -- this, too -
Q. Well, special cases -- Part of production in all cases is dependent upon the sickness rate of your labor force, isn't it, and is it not a fact that, as a man engaged in production, the two greatest difficulties in manpower and production are sickness and rapid turnover, and that thosefactors reduce production?
A. These two factors were disturbing us, but they were not actually so extensive as appears to be the case from your words. Sickness presented a a very small percentage and in my opinion, that percentage was a small one. Propaganda pamphlets dropped from aircraft were asking the workers to fake illnesses, and detailed instructions were given to the workers on just how one could fake illnesses. Against that the authorities concerned introduced certain measures, which I considered proper.
Q. What were those measures?
A. I am not tell you in detail because these penalty measures were not written by me, nor did I have the necessary power, but as far as I knew, it was done by the Plenipotentiary for Manpower, in collaboration with the police authorities or the authorities of the state, but the jurisdiction in this connection was that of the authorities who were responsible for penal actions.
Q. Now, if you do not know what they were, how can you tell us that you approved of them? We always get to this blank wall that nobody know what was being done. You knew that they were at least penalties of great severity, didn't you?
A. If I say that I approved, then I want to say that I do not want to dodge my responsibility here. You must understand that a minister of production, particularly in connection with air attacks, has a tremendous task before him and that I had to take care of that. I could only take care of matters outside my own particular sector is some special circumstances arose, some particularly serious circumstances forced me to do it. Otherwise, I was glad if I could settle my own work, and, after all, my taks was by no means a small one. the British Minister of Production whether he had shared the worries of the Minister of Labor and whether he was taking care of the other man's worries, then the British Minister of Production would probably have told you that he had something else to do, that he had to keep his production going and that he had to wait and she what the Minister of Labor would do in his sphere, and no one would raise a direct accusation against the British Minister of Production for not caring about the other matters too.
Q. Production was your enterprise, and do you mean to tell me that you did not have any records or reports on the condition of the manpower which was engaged in production which would tell you if there was anything wrong in the sick rate or anything wrong in the general conditions of the labor?
A. What I heard is contained in Central Planning. There you will get a reflection of what I have heard, though there were many other meetings too. I can not tell you in detail what I did know, because these were things which did not come within my sphere of activity, but it is a matter of course that if you are engaged in one task of the state, you will also hear a certain amount about the things that border your sphere and that you will hear a cer certain amount about the things that border your sphere and that you will hear a certain amount of other matters, but the facts are that if such deficiencies do not fall into one's duties, one does not have the duty to pursue them, and later on you do not, of course, remember in detail about what you have heard, but if there is any particular passage, I shall be delighted to give you information on it.
Q. All right; assume that these conditions had been called to your attention and that they existed. With whom would you have taken it up to have them corrected? What officer of the government?
A. In normal circumstances, a minister would act like this: He would sned the document to the authorities who were responsible. I will say that if I heard of such deficiences, I would try to stop them, and I would normally have gone directly to the officer concerned. That was either the German Labor Front, with which I had a liaison officer, or it was handled through my labor department to Sauckel. sidered the matter as having been taken care of, and I could not, of course, chase after every such thing and make further inquiries as to whether it had been dealt with or not.
Q. With the Krupps then you would not have taken it up? You think they had no responsibility for these conditions?
A. In the case of Krupp, in visits to Krupp there were certainly discussions about the conditions that would generally exist for workers after air attacks. That was one of our greatest worries, particularly with reference to Krupp, and about that I was most efficiently informed, but there was no difference made for Krupp, and I can not remember that I was told that foreign workers or prisoners of war were in a particularly bad condition. Temporarily they were all in a bad way, in a very rimitice condition. German workers were lying in cellars during those days, and in a small cellar room, six or eight people would be quartered.
Q. Your statement sometime ago that you had a certain responsibility as a minister of the government for conditions -- I should like to have you explain a little further what responsibility you referred to when you say you assume responsibility as a member of the government.
A. Do you mean the declaration I made yesterday?
Q. What do you mean by, Your common responsibility, along with others?
A. Oh, yes. In my opinion, in the life of the state, there are two types of responsibility. On is the responsibility one has for one's own sector and for that, of course, one is fully responsible. Over and above that it is my own personal opinion that with reference to utterly decisive matters, there is total responsibility; there must be total responsibility. Insofar as a person is one of the leaders, because who else could assume responsibility for the development of events, if not the immediate associates who work with and around the head of the state? affairs. It can not be applied to the handling of details which have occurred in the spheres of influence of other ministries or other responsible sources, because otherwise the entire discipline of the life of the state would be completely muddled up, and no one would ever know who is individually responsible in his sphere of influence. These spheres must be cleanly divided.
Q. Your point is, I take it, that you as a member of the fovernment and a leader in this period of time, acknowledge a responsibility for its large policies, but not for all the details that occurred in their execution. Is that a fair statement of your position?
A. Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think that concludes the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other Prosecutors wish to cross examine? BY GENERAL RAGINSKY:
Q. Defendant Speer, when you told your biography to the Tribunal and answered the questions of Justice Jackson, you omitted some substantial things from your biography. I would like to ask you a few questions.
A. I have left out such points as I did not wish to contest, as they are contained in the documents, and I would have one awful job if I were to go into all of these points in detail.
Q. I would like to recall those details, and I would like to ask you to answer shortly.
position, you were also the personal adjutant to Hitler? Have you held this position?
Q Have you been General Inspector of Roads?
A Only after Dr. Todt's death
Q Yes, of course. General inspector of Roads and Production?
Q General Plenipotentiary for the four Year Plan?
Q The Director of the Todt Organization? Socialist Party?
Q The leader of the union of National Socialist Technicians? positions?
A Oh, I had about ten or twelve positions. I don't want to give you a list of them all.
Q Have you been on e of the leaders of the German House of Culture?
A No, that is not true. No, No; I can not tell you for certain, but I think there I was a senator or something like that. Culture? and Architecture?
Q I shall not mention the other posts that you have had. Do you remember the position you took in the interrogation by Colonel Rosenblith in 1945?
your answer was correct. It was a question of whether you acknowledged that in his book "Mein Kampf" Hitler stated bluntly what his aggressive plans were with respect to the countries of the East and the West and, in particular, with respect to the Soviet Union. You answered, "Yes, I acknowledge it." Do you remember that?
Q And do you confirm that now?
Q You do not confirm that now? that I had not read all of "Mein Kampf". I thought I would feel a little silly about that.
Q All right, we shall not waste time. You were ashamed, and now you are not ashamed. Let's go to another question.
Q Maybe you are cheating now?
Q You worked oj the staff of Hess, didn't you?
Q You were collaborating with Ley?
as you stated here today; you said that today inCourt.
A That wasn't a very high rank, though; it wasn't in any way corresponding to the position which I occupied in the State.
I repeats; you were the Plenipotentiary for Hess, and you worked with Ley in the Labor Front.
We willnot discuss the fact as to whether it was a very high rank or not, but you did have a rank in the Nazi Party.
Yesterday, in Court, you said that you were one of Hitler's close friends. You now want to say that so far as the plans and intentions of Hitler were concerned you only learned about them from the book Mein Kampf?
A I can give youan explanation in that connection. I was in close contact with Hitler, and I heard his personal views. These views of his did not lead one to the conclusion that he could have had any of the plans as of the period in these document here. I was particularly satisfied, in 1939, when the non-aggressive pact with Russia was signed, for instance. After all, your diplomats must have read Mein Kampf too, and in spite of that they did sign that non-aggression pact. I am sure they were more intelligent than I am in political matters. who did not; that is irrelevant.
So you contend that you did not know anything about Hitler's plans?
Q All right, please tell us this. As the leader of the Technical Department of the Nazi party, what were the tasks of this institution?
A In the Party? main technical leadership group of the Nazi Party.
A I onlytook over that task in 1942; and in 1942, during the war, there wasn't any task for this Chief Department of Technology of the NSDAP.
my ministry by me, and there I had them work in a capacity for theState. Detailed information about this will be given to you by the written testimony of a witness by the name of Sauer, and that is contained in my document back. That document book also contains a decree issued by me, which came out at the end of 1942, in which I ordered the transfer of these tasks to the apparatus of the State.
Q But youdid not answer my question. In order not to lose time, I will read what Sauer said on this question, and you will please state whether it is correct or not correct. Party, Sauer said that the task of the Main Technical Office inthe Party was a united leadership of technical organizations to serve the German Nation on scientific, special, and political questions. It was apolitical organization, was it not?
Q A technical organization, which was busy with political questions? and which was partlyquoted here there are indications concerning the tasks of the Main Technical Office. From one document it is obvious that the technical deliberationswere to incorporate National Socialist thinking among engineers, and that this organization was also a political one, and not a technical one.
A Where does it say so" May I have the document please?
Q Of course; the document book of the defense. *---* it to you, and you will have it. You will soon see the structure. that it is the organization book of the NSDAP.
Q Yes; that is the structure of the Kreisleiter of the NSDAP. That is document 1893-PS, whichhas been presented by your defense counsel.
Technology in the NSDAP did not have a political task. That is something which I have made the subject of an extract of this organization, the handbook of the NSDAP, and I would not have included it in my document book if I hadn't had the precise impression that, particularly from that extract, it appears, contrary to all other countries, that the Chief Department of Technology had a non-political task within the Party. political organization?
Q Could the leaders of this Union not be members of the Nazi Party?
A They didn't have to be members. As far as I know, I never paid any attention as to whether they were members or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we adjourn now?
(A recess was taken.) BY GENERAL RAGINSK Y: Was the search for new sources of raw materials included in your aims? was the search for new sources of raw materials included in the aims or problems of the Central Planning Board?
A. No.
Q All right. I shall read to you from your document bock. Otherwise, we shall lose too much time with you. This is in the order dated the 22nd of April, 1942, signed by Goering. This order is in your document book in the first volume, Page 14 of the Russian text and Page 17 of the English text.
"with a view towards assuring priority of armaments as ordered by Hitler, and to summarize all the hands which are made on the total economy and in order to find new sources of raw material, I order that there be organized a Central Planning Board." In the third part, the tasks of the central Planning Board are enumerated:
"The Central Planning Board encompasses the sphere of the entire economy, and has among others the following tasks:
"Point C: The distribution of raw materials, especially iron and the metals, among all places requiring them, and also a search for new sources of the raw material."
A Yes. There is a distinction to be made. I was told "sources of raw materials." I understand "sources of raw materials" to mean "ore", for example, or coal. What this paragraph says is the "production of new raw materials." That means the construction of a factory for steel production, for instance, or an aluminum factory. industry was important, and that I took ever this activity.
Q Yes. Of course, it is rather difficult to day it. Will you tell us why there is this difference? having to be translated twice, these technical expressions are rendered falsely. The meaning of the paragraph is completely clear. Every expert can confirm it. That is the same activity.
Q I understand the sense. Tell us, when you enumerated the members of the Central Planning Board, was it just accidental that you did not name Funk as a member of that Board?
A No. Funk worked hardly at all in the Central Planning Board. That is why I did not list him. In September, 1943, he became a member officially; but after that time he took part in only one or two meetings, so that his activity was very slight.
Q I did not ask you about his activity; I am asking you whether Funk was a member of the Central Planning Board.
Q And it was purely through accident that you did not name him? Or did you have any particular purpose in not naming him? beginning, because I spoke only of the formation of the Central planning Board.
Q All right. Here you maintain that you were concerned with peaceful construction, and so far as the appointment to the post of the Minister of Armaments was concerned, you accepted this without any desire or any wish, and you had your qualms about it. Do you stillmaintain the same view?
A Can I have the question repeated?
Q If you please. Here you stated several times, in replying to the questions of your defense counsel, that the post of the Minister of Armament was accepted by you without any special wish on your part, and that you were really not concerned about it, and you did not particularly care to accept it. Do you still maintain that now? industry in the Rhine district. Do you remember what you said to them? I shall quote one paragraph from your speech. You said:
"In the spring of 1942, without worrying about it, I accepted the demands propounded by Hitler as a program which must be fulfilled, which I am fulfilling now, and which shall be fulfilled."
Did you mention that before?
A Yes. But that has nothing to do with that statement of yours. The demands meant here are the demands for an increase in military armament. These are the ones I accepted. But in addition, of course, I immediately accepted the appointment of Armament Minister without any reservation. I never denied that. I only said that I would rather be an architect then an armament minister. That could be misunderstood.
speech in Munich:
"I gave up all this (meaning architecture) to dedicate myself wholly to the solution of the war problems, as is expected from all of us."
Is this the same sort of thing which you are saying now?
A Yes. I believe that that was the custom in your state, too.
Q I am not asking you about our state. We are not talking about our state here. I am asking you what you said to the Gauleiters and what you are testifying to how. certain that you do not understand that in a war one should accept the post of armament minister. If it is necessary, that is a matter of course. I cannot understand why you do not understand that and why you want to reproach me for doing so. not think then that you would be held responsible before the International Military Tribunal for your words spoken in the past.
A Excuse me; one moment, please. I must answer this question, because you read this out of my document book. I hope you consider me intelligent enough to be able to set up my document book correctly.
QQuite so, quite so. But these documents are not only in your possession, but also in the possession of the prosecution. However, we shall pass on to the next question. testified about the principles and pacts of your ministry. In connection with this, I should like to ask you a few questions. Do you remember the contents of your article entitled, "Increase of Production", which was published in "Das Reich" on the 19th of April, 1942?
GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I submit this article as an exhibit, USSR 479.
BY GENERAL RAGINSKY: your ministry.
"One thing, however, will become necessary, and that is the most energetic procedure with the most source punishment when offenses occur which are in any way detrimental to the interests of the state .... with imprisonment or death ... The war must be won."
Did you write this?
Now, I shall remind you of another article of yours. You will also be given a copy of this.
A May I ask you to read the whole paragraph? You left out a few sentences.
Q Yes, yes, I emitted a paragraph or two. Now I will ask you a question on it.
A But they show why these 2,000 death sentences were provided. I believe you must quote that in order not to lose the context. wards. But meanwhile listen to the question as I ask them to you now. If you want to give your explanation in regard to this, you are entitled to do so later.
THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, the Tribunal would prefer to have the comments new.
GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, if the defendant wishes to give an explanation, I shall let him do so, of course.
THE WITNESS: The text which you omitted roads as fellows:
"At my suggestion, the Fuehrer ordered that those heads of concerns and employees, and also these officials and officers who attempted to give inaccurate facts about materials or workers will receive severe sentences, even death sentences."
That is considered as follows. When I took over my office, the requests to the Central Agencies were added to my intermediate agencies. Each of the many agencies added a suggestion of its own, so that the demands which reached me were quite enormous, incredible, and no planning was possible for this reason.
For example, the demands which I received for copper in one year was mere than the while world's production of copper in one year, because those additions had been made. And in order to prevent this and get accurate indications, I issued an order to these officials, officers, heads of concerns, and employees, which was to prevent them from doing this.
In my Gauleiter speech, I mentioned it. It says that this decree would result in no one's daring to give false indications, and I assumed that the intent of the decree would be fulfilled, and that it would never be necessary to put the decree into effect, since I did not believe that the heads of concerns, employees, employees, officials, and officers, would have enough courage to give such false indications in view of such a high penalty. and workers which reached me were considerably reduced by this measure. BY GENERAL RAGINSKY: cluded only production. Did I understand you correctly?
concerned, wasn't it included in your duties ? my task; that is true. Then I was in charge of everything from raw materials to the finished products. you will be given this issue now --- and I submit this document to the Tribunal as USSR Exhibit 480-- it is written in the book : " On the basis of the Fuehrer directive of the 2nd September 1943, about the concentration of war economy and on the basis of a decree of the Reichsmarshal of the Greater German Reich and the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, and the Central Planning of the 4th of September 1943, Reichsminister Speer as a minister for armament and war industry is now responsible for the entire war economic production in his capacity as Reich Minister for armament and war production. He alone as plenipotentiary is responsible for supplies, direction and execution of the trade war economy." Is this correct ? I ask you to asnwer in brief; is it correct or not ?
A That is correct in a layman's term, because the term of war materials does not quite cover armament and war material. This was not drawn up by an export but otherwise it agrees with what I have testified. I said that war production Included total production. war industry but also for war economy as well and these are two different things.
A No, that is a mistake : It says here "trade war economy",(Gewerbliche Kriegswirtschaft). That is something similar to production ; that is war production in trade and industry; that is a limitation and if it says"all war production" it probably means production according to the person who drew this up.
Q All right, we will pass to the next question. You mentioned here already that having accepted the post of Minister in 1942, you inherited a great task and heavy task, if one can express one's self; and also tell us briefly, please, what was the situation in so far as this strategic role is concerned, and in particular with metals as used in the war industry ?
THE PRESIDENT : General Raginsky, is it necessary for us to go into details ? Isn't it obvious that a man who was controlling many millions of workers had a large task ? What is this directed to ?
GENERAL RAGINSKY : Mr. President, the question is a preparatory sort of question that leads to another question and in as much as it is connected --
THE PRESIDENT : What is the ultimate object of the cross examination ? You say it is leading to something else. What is it leading to ?
GENERAL RAGINSKY : The Object is to prove that the defendant Speer participated in the economic plundering and looting of Occupied Territories.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, if you ask him directly about that.
GENERAL RAGINSKY : That is exactly what I am getting at. BY GENERAL RAGINSKY : ing of Occupied Territories ?
A Economic plundering of Occupied Countries ? I participated in economic exploitation of the Occupied Countries. I don't know what plundering of an occupied territory means.
Q To liquidate strategic raw materials; and did you import metals from Belgium, France and other Occupied Territories ? of part in it. I was not responsible for it but certainly I urged that we should get as much metal as possible from there. qualify your answer. Do you remember Hitler's order about concentration of war economy, published on the 2nd of September, You will be given a copy of this order right now. This document is being submitted as USSR Exhibit 482. I don't intend to read all of this as it will take too much time. I would like to read into the record only a few paragraphs in this order, beginning with the following sentence : "Taking into consideration the demands of war and better utilization of manpower, I order the following : " Paragraph 2. "The authorities of the Reichsminister for Economy in this sphere of raw materials production and in industry are given to the Reichsminister for Armament and ammunition. The Reichsminister for Armament in the war industry, because of his greater scope of task is called the Minister For Armament and War Industry". Did you find what I just said ?
this connection, with this order, how were the functions separated between you and Funk ?
A That is shown from the text here; that I was in charge of all production from raw materials to the final product and Funk was in charge of all general economic questions, primarily the question of transfer of money and the questions of stock and foreign trade, and so forth, but that is not and exhaustive description which I have just given, it is just an approximate one.
Q I am satisfied with this answer. In connection with this order, did you receive plenipotentiary powers in so far as regulation of the goods exchange is concerned or trade ?
A I don't know what you mean.
Q All right. In order not to lose any time, you will be given a document signed by you and Funk, which is dated the 6th of September 1943. This document I present to the Tribunal as USSR Exhibit 483. I shall read the first sentence of the first paragraph : "In as much as the order for the authority of the Reichsminister of Economy also includes the regulation of goods exchange, this authority for the period of the war is given over to the Minister For Armament and War Industry." In this way, your role in the war effort of Germany, your role during the period of the war, the role of a leader of economy, war economy in Germany, it was much broader and wider in scope than what you presented here at the Tribunal sessions ; Wasn't it so ?
A No, I did not try to present the situation any differently. I said that the armament minister in the war was the most important position in the Reich; everything has to go through the armament industry. I don't believe any more comprehensive presentation of my task can be given. This presentation of the matter of my exchange of goods is a matter of subordinate significance. I can't even say what it means. It is a technical term which I don't understand. I can't even say it means. It is a technical term which I don't understand.
Q Yes, but this document is signed by you and now you don't know exactly what is meant by it. You signed it together with Funk. the German Labor Front maintained and was there any contact between the two organizations ?
as in all other important offices in the Reich.
Q Won't you name that officer ? under me. concerns, such as concerns of fabrication and lumber mills should not be included in the list of war concerns. Did I understand you correctly, did you maintain this ?
A No, that is a mistake. That must have been wrongly translated,
Q How should I understand you correctly ?
A I believe that there are two mistakes in translation here. In the first place, in my testimony I did not speak of war industry but of the term "armament". I said that this term "armament" includes textile concerns and wood and leather concernes. Armament and war industry are two entirely different terms, however. armament ? although in fact they did not produce any armament articles in the stricter sense.
Q Doesn't the textile industry manufacture parachutes for the Navy and ammunition for the Air Corps? not forbidden, for prisoners of war to produce then. I have the text here. I can read it to you. manufactured without cellulose and, therefore, you are narrowing down the conception of war industry and war production?
A No. You misunderstood no completely. I wanted to make the concept of armament production as wide as possible in order to prove that this concept, "armament industry", is something entirely different than the industries that produce armament in the sense of the Geneva Convention.
Q All right. You testified to your objection to the utilization of foreign workers with the motives, which Schmelter indicated in his testimony. He was in charge of labor in your ministry. This testimony is presented by your defense counsel. I shall read only one paragraph and will you please confirm whether it is correct or not: "minister Speer several times mentioned to us that utilization of foreign workers will create great difficulties for the Reich so far as the food supply for the workers is concerned." Were these the motives for your objections?
A The translation must be incorrect here. I know exactly how the text reads and the sense of this is correct. It was the following problem: If we brought now workers to Germany for these works we had to supply the basic calleries which are necessary to feed a human being, but the Germans still working in Germany had to receive these basic callories anyhow. As a result, the food supply was saved if I occupied German workers in Germany and the additional callories which are necessary for persons doing heavy work and working longer hours could be increased, somewhat. That was the sense of Schmelter's statement. and here you are expressing details which are of no interest to me. I am asking you about this particular place from the testimony on the part of Schmelter that tied into the record. Was his testimony correct as to the facts or not?